The Factory Floor

Shalvenay

00:13

hey there @kingledion @Mithrandir24601 @HDE226868 @Green

Future Historian

00:23

@Shalvenay.........it has begun.

Cold War 2.0 and/or World War III. Not sure.

But either way, drone swarm attack alert!

Future Historian

00:38

sciencealert.com/…

Green

01:31

@HDE226868 it wasn't a question on the main site. A guy named Pete showed up in chat and wanted someone to look over his world map. One thing led to another and I was trying to build a global climate model with it.

@Shalvenay hey!

Shalvenay

@Green how're things going?

Green

@HDE226868 I can't find the original conversation (mobile search isn't great)

@Shalvenay is been a beautiful day!

Shalvenay

@Green not so great here :/

Green

01:49

@Shalvenay I hope it gets better (if that's possible. L

)

Secret

04:19

1

Q: What branch of metaphysics studies things like "Nowhere", "Limbo", "Non-being", "Neither dead nor alive", "neither present nor absent"?

Recently, when thinking about metaphysics and in particular the notion of abstract concepts, while also reading various settings of movies, games and books, I noticed that usually, entities that are often branded as mysterious and unknown have the terms similar to what is described in the title. ...

Reduction of the fullness of being...

Perhaps that will get me closer to the true nature of ???

Other notes:

Abstract algebra gives a really good guide on how to formulate RPG magic combinations (possibly even those that are non projectile too) because part of it is about what happens when A + B

Whereas metaphysics deals with the highly mysterious concepts such as god, the stuff above, death, life etc. and teach you the best way to formulate them in terms of magic

Art, being a non verbal language, allows you to understood some of these concepts that will otherwise took a whole book just to describe it

Culture then allows you to figure how it can be weaved into the setting and/or the plot

and finally, science also give unintuitive concepts to play with, and also highly formula type magic

(Above notes sidesteps the issue of true magic for now, as it is a much harder question that requires reading certain fictional works)

Secret

09:42

nytimes.com/2018/01/11/opinion/…

Dark ages, dark ages indeed

in The h Bar, 3 mins ago, by Slereah

A grim foreshadowing of the future!

We took no specific side, because no one is 100% trustable

and because of this side we choose, the result is a strong desire to eradicate all of humanity

Humanity have outlived their usefulness. For so many eons, submit themselves under The One and Many.

Won't they soon bored with that stagnation and the lack of creativity and diversity?

If Gods creations are leading nowhere, then why should They continue to try?

The End is near, but we still need a Catalyst to start the Doomsday Program

Future Historian

10:31

@FerretCivilization? How long to realistically rebuild Earth anyway?

At least the specifically designated cities.

Ferret Civilization

Depending on the effort, 1 year - 30 years - 50 years timeline area.

Future Historian

Well, is 10 years doable?

Even with 3D printing, the resources from the Visitors, etc.?

Ferret Civilization

Depending on the effort.

Future Historian

What specific aspects of it, though?

Ferret Civilization

Resources. What you put in versus what you would get out of it.

Future Historian

10:37

Oh.

Well, how much would it take for reconstruction in 10 years anyway?

Ferret Civilization

Materials would be constant where ever is being built back up. How many people are you going to spare, and how long you would work them and pay them are other things. Look at rebuilding after WW1 or WW2 for example.

Future Historian

Well, 3.9 billion human lives are dead, along with 1.9 billion extra dead humans from other factors in the aftermath of the Invasion.

So, 2.1 billion human survivors, many of which are either trying to migrate into the city centres as they are built from the ashes or trying to resist the GPI and their Visitor masters.

So, @FerretCivilization? 2.1 billion human survivors, and about 900 million of them already living in the city centres by 2034.

The rest are either in neutral settlements or fighting for the Resistance.

How much of a reconstruction effort can I expect anyway?

@FerretCivilization? With that in mind, 10 years is unrealistic for reconstruction, hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm?

dot_Sp0T

@Secespitus as always you're right

Ferret Civilization

10:52

It would be up to you. Just going off of large scale rebuilding projects. This would be a global effort, with the lack of logistics and the supplies that built the world the first time. For 10 years unless you realistically put 2 in 9 people in the construction field for those living in cities, which would be terrible thing to do, probably need longer.

Future Historian

@FerretCivilization? How much longer, then?

Ferret Civilization

Took a year for a city that was turned to dust to rebuild, took a continent ravaged by war a second time thirty. That was with aid, remove that, figured fifty is my ballpark, then add some for reality.

Future Historian

So, about 70 years to rebuild EVERY MAJOR CITY on Earth?

Because remember: it is only the cities that are designated for their economic, cultural, historical and/or political importance.

@FerretCivilization? Is 70 years good?

Ferret Civilization

Back to their pre-bombed levels of output probably, could say sooner with just the framework being built. Like I said though, this is up to you. You could say ten with the fancy technology out there and the aliens rebuilding what they want.

Future Historian

Exactly.

But the problem is, I am talking about the basics being rebuilt.

Because they are NOT going back to pre-Invasion levels for a LONG time.

Secespitus

11:20

@dot_Sp0T I began to shudder when reading the new question because I remembered the linked one and the other... stuff... from that time...

dot_Sp0T

Now you are being nasty

Secespitus

I am always nasty

dot_Sp0T

Are you also good at geometry by chance?

Secespitus

Probably not good enough for anything that may be related to your train questions.

Future Historian

@dot_Sp0T? Just out of curiosity sake, what did War of the Worlds get right vs what it got wrong (which is a lot)?

Secespitus

11:31

@dot_Sp0T BTW: the flag I raised to the non-answer under your new train-question we discussed yesterday is still pending.

dot_Sp0T

11:43

@Secespitus no bother

@FutureHistorian idk

Future Historian

Oh.

dot_Sp0T

Damn that guy is killing me - is he that daft?

Secespitus

@dot_Sp0T Who is nasty now?

dot_Sp0T

12:01

@Secespitus he is

...if you have any difficulties with English, please be up-front about them, and I can clarify words for you. But the context of the writings made it very clear I was not asking about the dragons' chances of winning elections - how does that not drip of arrogance and daftness?

Secespitus

Looking through the comments - yes, he is.

dot_Sp0T

I mean it's just as likely that he is unaware of it himself. But that does not help in that situ and I do like to complain way too much I am afraid...

Secespitus

I love how he wrote 7 comments instead of editing his question once.

@dot_Sp0T Complaining is fun

dot_Sp0T

@Secespitus oh that is gold yeah; although I am most often doing such as well. Writing comments explaining things before modifying the question.

I wish I could still just propose edits instead of having them applied instantly

Secespitus

@dot_Sp0T It's been an hour since he started commenting.

dot_Sp0T

12:09

Ah well, it's going on - gona be fun nonetheless

Secespitus

13

Q: Could I please have my privilege to edit without a peer review removed?

I have hit the 2k-rep threshold recently, and hence my edits should now be automatically accepted without a peer review. However: My English, though fluent, is very far from perfect. I can't edit a post written by a native speaker if I don't want to spoil it by a stupid mistake, even if I have ...

support editing

Future Historian

@FerretCivilization? How do you picture the Resistance's operations in Africa anyway?

After all: I am not sure which regions would be full of Resistance fighters and which ones would be......well, no Resistance fighters here.

@Gryphon? Anything I should be aware of for Resistance operations in Africa?

Because remember: most of Africa fell in the first day of the Invasion.

I am not sure how Resistance fighters would operate in what was once the poorest continent on Earth.

Ferret Civilization

The same way they do now.

Future Historian

I get that, but do I use English names (and acronyms) or is there a way to make acronyms out of languages native to Africa?

Like Zulu, or Swahili or Yoruba, you get the point.

Besides, Africa combined has ~1,500 - 2,100 languages, with some estimates putting them over 3,000 languages.

Do I just use the acronyms for the various resistance groups that the European colonisers used during their grip on Africa in terms of linguistics or should I use local languages to make acronyms/names for the group out of?

Ferret Civilization

Huh, for that English to your reader, call it translated from their language. Or use French.

Future Historian

12:18

Well, @FerretCivilization. What are the biggest European languages in Africa anyway?

English, French, and what else?

Portuguese? German? Dutch (Afrikaans is just localised Dutch anyway)? What?

Ferret Civilization

Pretty much that.

Future Historian

So, for South Africa, what would be a good name for prominent Resistance groups unaffiliated with the IA?

Since....well, South Africa probably has an IA contingent made out of some of the nation's former military divisions somewhere.

And probably the last of pre-Invasion Earth's national armies in the continent besides Egypt.

@FerretCivilization? Which pre-Invasion armies have any hope of surviving the Invasion in Africa anyway?

As in: in terms of probably a few regiments or divisons tops?

Or at least their scattered elements.

Ferret Civilization

All of them.

Future Historian

As in: all of the nations of Africa have some military divisions left?

But.....but.......most of Africa fell within hours.

So, which militaries in the African continent have ANY hope of surviving with a few military divisions still operational?

@FerretCivilization? What do you mean by "all of them"?

All of Africa's nations with military forces or what?

Ferret Civilization

You can say it fell, but saying they lose their military straight out misunderstands just how most of those nation's operate. Many of them are fighting asymmetrical warfare with up to six seven different local rebel groups. South Sudan is a prime example of this. Whereas the wealthier nations like South Africa, Nigeria, and Ethiopia help maintain efforts of peace through AU operations. Being hit by a superior force, like from the European nations, would be nothing new for them to deal with.

Future Historian

12:29

@FerretCivilization. Oh. Well, what about the conventional military forces?

Would any military divisions in the continent be able to survive the Visitor onslaught during the Invasion?

Or even their national governments for that matter.

Oh wait.

They do not HAVE some Cold War era bunker to hide on.

@FerretCivilization? Which conventional armies in Africa do you feel would survive the longest?

Most of Africa was already overrun by the end of day one, but conventional military engagements in Africa still carried on.

But who would do it?

Looking at Global Firepower, would you say that Nigeria, South Africa, Ethiopia, and most of North Africa could withstand the initial landing of the Visitors following their bombardment of Earth?

At least in terms of which nations survive the Invasion in Africa for the longest time period before RIP.

Ferret Civilization

African conventional military power is all about being as asymmetrical as the enemies of the state they end up fighting. With a strong web of international affairs with the AU, which would probably be the thing largely carrying on as a small united front. Also, major languages of Africa go French, English, Portuguese, and Arabic.

Future Historian

Thank you!

@FerretCivilization? So, militaries aside, what about their governments?

You know: the governments of the nations of Africa?

Which could survive the longest before RIP?

Besides, how are you going to get Nigeria’s President, for example, to NORAD without getting shot down, killed or sunk, since.......well, the few heads of state that managed to survive are in Cold War era bunkers like Cheyenne Mountain/NORAD?

Ferret Civilization

Many nations in Africa are ruled by the military in some way or all out, others are 'corrupt dictators' by our standards. Probably just move about with the military or resistance. Why go to the US?

Future Historian

True.

But......what about the nations in Africa today that hold or once held pre-Invasion, the largest economies/military forces in the continent?

Ferret Civilization

Probably what you said, the north has a giant desert to operate out of, the center has a giant rain forest to operate out of, the south has a little bit of everything.

dot_Sp0T

12:53

I might be seriously tempted to modify my windows installation to not treat me like a frikkin imbecile everytime it updates....

"Hi"
"We've got some updates for your PC"
"Please don't turn it off"
"This might take some time"
Blue pulsating background
"Let's start"

Future Historian

@FerretCivilization? Remind me again what you pointed out about post-GPI political borders being different?

Because I kind of forgot the specifics, except the general idea that cultural divisions will be the new factor for political borders rather than European-style artificial borders.

@FerretCivilization? How did you say post-GPI Earth would be like again?

In the specific aspects, I mean?

And sorry about the pinging.

I am just getting impatient.

Ferret Civilization

Based off culture, with major Islamic borders split between their two sects in the northern deserts, local borders between community ties in the center and south. Maybe a united South Africa again.

Future Historian

So, what happens to Europe, North America and other parts of Earth outside Africa and the Middle East?

Ferret Civilization

Really need to work on that impatience thing, I could just answer yes in the seconds you want a typed out answer, ha heh.

Future Historian

Oh.

So, that aside, what happens in Europe, North America, Asia (besides the Middle East) and Oceania?

Bonus points for including the dominant powers of post-GPI Earth.

Worldbuilding Meta

13:05

0

Q: Only Three Books : Functional Categories to narrow the scope

In the Only Three Books Series, I've been asking for WB to cite three books to send forward in time to be a kickstarting reference for a civilization recovering from collapse. Given the complaints of too-broad and opinion-based, I'd like to firm up the somewhat nebulous nature of the series. My h...

discussion

Ferret Civilization

As for the rest of the world, North America would probably get split between English and Spanish. Portuguese Brazil would probably shrink. Europe pretty much already has their borders settled. Maybe a more united Germanic cultural nation. Slavs kind of proved that does not work for you Europeans. Could say the same with the Romance nations to the west. Do it like that and Finland finds itself more lonely with Estonia and faraway Hungary, which would just be hilarious since it would be stretch

Future Historian

So, it would be border gore in real life?

@FerretCivilization? How is post-Invasion America like?

For example.

Secespitus

@dot_Sp0T I remember once seeing a message like "We made an update. Your files are exactly where you left them." - that was kinda creepy

Future Historian

As in: in terms of territory?

How do the US' borders look like post-GPI?

That is......if Mattis' government that emerges from Cheyenne Mountain survives long enough.

Ferret Civilization

Asia, Islamic middle east and their two sects, Israel would be a mess of whose who. Imagine the Jewish Israelis would keep their grip on the area. Asia, China and India would probably split up more with their different people. Indonesia might find more island nations being formed in their old borders. Australia and New Zealand would probably do what USA and Canada would do and merge into one cultural area with more islands included. As they would be the base of the Pacific over Japan.

Future Historian

13:10

@FerretCivilization? What happens to the American Southwest?

Still under US control or under control of some Latin American power?

Ferret Civilization

The US would probably lose their mostly Spanish areas in Texas to California.

Future Historian

Say the reborn Mexico or some breakaway state that secedes from the US, made out of majority Latino populations?

@FerretCivilization? So, which parts of the US are no longer part of the US?

Because I am still wondering the specific chunks post-Invasion America loses control of.

Ferret Civilization

Would not be a clean cut line, on top of all the death the borders would not have the same kind of backing culturally that they once had. Though this should help, washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/special/national/us-language-map

Future Historian

So, most of the American Southwest today, ignoring the body count, would be either their own nation-state or part of Mexico.

Great.............

Ferret Civilization

Take a closer look at that map, most that Spanish area is around 10%, not exactly a lets take over the local people marker.

At the end the border would probably shift up yes. However you bombed out the populated areas were the culture has a foothold and left the largely unpopulated but highly Spanish areas to wither out. So there would probably be funny areas of the lines shooting out and back down again on the map.

Future Historian

13:39

So, EUIV-style border gore?

Oh, bloody hell.

The Americans may as well take full control of their former territory, even though there would probably be a few guerrillas by the Spanish-speaking areas of America that were not completely affected by the Invasion.

@FerretCivilization? Question about one of the characters now: do you feel that Sgt. Sikes having a daughter and ex-wife would make him feel more alive?

Oh and NOTE: They both die in the Invasion (which could serve as an extra motive for continuing the fight: avenging his child's death).

As in: would you say you could get more attached to the character with a family pre-Invasion with him?

Ferret Civilization

Probably if you wanted hard borders yes, I would imagine it would really just be a gray fuzzy zone since neither side would really have the logistics or the need to be like, "This worthless desert here with shells of cities that would cost more to build up again than they would return, this is mine"

Future Historian

Oh.

Now, back to the characters.

I am wondering how much humanity I can give the characters having families.

Especially Sgt. Sikes.

He has an ex-wife and a daughter, the former of which he still cares about, and even more so for their child, but during the Invasion, they die.

Ferret Civilization

Maybe, character development is not my thing. I would imagine some might connect with that more. Personally if you are just adding that to kill them off, seems like a trope that has been done a lot.

Future Historian

I know.

I just want to add them in, not to kill them off.....Sgt. Sikes himself would be dead outside of Earth later on anyway.

But more like....to give him a sense of humanity, as well as probably an extra reason for him continuing to fight for 10 years since.

Ferret Civilization

"They both die in the Invasion" For motivation... Seems like you are adding them in just to kill them off for the trope.

Future Historian

13:48

Oh.

Well, I should probably think of something else.

But.......you know. It is just a proposal.

Nothing final.

@FerretCivilization. Any better ideas on what to do with them?

Ferret Civilization

Go with your original idea, do anything you want, I don't know. Not my thing.

Future Historian

You know: Sgt. Sikes' divorced relationship and his daughter?

Well, do you think @Gryphon is better at character development than me?

Or you?

Because I really need some advice.

I am tired of repeating tropes anyway.

So, @FerretCivilization? How to deconstruct this particular trope anyway?

@Gryphon? Since you are here, any ideas on what to do with the proposed family for Sgt. Sikes other than killing them off (at least immediately)?

Ferret Civilization

Anyone would be better than me at this, waiting for Terrible Writing Advice to cover it myself. And tropes are not bad, they are tools. Killing them off for motivation is one thing that is done poorly a lot. You could keep them alive is just as popular.

Future Historian

@FerretCivilization? So, how do I kill them off the right way?

Because I REALLY want to do this GoT-style.

Most of the time.

I am trying to avoid as much plot armour as possible.

Ferret Civilization

Developing Doomed Character?

Future Historian

13:53

And trying to avoid doing tropes poorly, if I have to do tropes.

@FerretCivilization? Is this a good story to use the Developing Doomed Character trope?

Or do you just want me to skip to killing off Sgt. Sikes' ex-wife and daughter?

Ferret Civilization

Your already going to kill off Sikes, so you are already using it and should be familiar with it, ha.

Future Historian

Oh.

Right.

@FerretCivilization. Then again, just wait 10 in-story years.

Right?

Aka: a few books later.

So, he is not going to die........yet.

Ferret Civilization

Maybe, yeah?

Future Historian

@FerretCivilization? So it still applies, even if a few books later, he is already dead?

Besides, he is the main protagonist (for this part of the series, at least).

I probably should have the first few books focus on the North American story arcs in particular, then develop the sidequels to work on the situation elsewhere on the planet.

That way, I do not need to cram multiple story arcs (9 of them in particular) into the span of four days.

Future Historian

14:34

@FerretCivilization? I wonder how post-GPI Earth would be able to reverse engineer Visitor technology, if at all.

Ferret Civilization

It is made out of solid material, moving parts, separate pieces, that kind of stuff, already have a base.

Future Historian

I get that, but how long before humanity has any basic way of defending itself in space?

Say.......setting up nuclear-tipped satellites, having military spacecraft in orbit, ready for a time when the Visitors return (if they return), and preparing to get a few colonies elsewhere in the Solar System?

Ferret Civilization

Up to you, maybe after they put their cities back together?

Mithrandir24601

15:03

@HDE226868 all the people currently hating the Principia have evidently never experienced the epic feeling of reading Newtons laws on a centuries old second edition ;)

Future Historian

15:14

@FerretCivilization? Which film, novel or game with an extraterrestrial invasion of Earth would you rather see from the extraterrestrial PoV?

Because I wonder if War of the Worlds could be made from the Martians' point of view.

Ferret Civilization

ET: The Extraterrestrial.

Future Historian

ET is not about an extraterrestrial attack against Earth.

But I see the point.

Ferret Civilization

It is never mentioned just what the point of being there was. Could have been the scout force for one, could have been a botched attempt. Who knows, just have that one alien there that emotionally bonds with some kid.

Gryphon

15:32

@FerretCivilization It wasn't mentioned in the film, but in the book, I believe they were there to collect botanical samples for study.

Ferret Civilization

Awesome, I don't trust the long term goals of that. Ha.

Future Historian

@Gryphon. Actually, they do use injected blood as a source of nutrition.

The Martians in the book, I mean.

So........humans are basically Martian food 101.

:P

Gryphon

@FutureHistorian I meant from ET. Not War of the Worlds.

Future Historian

Oh.

Sorry.

Wrong media.

@Gryphon? Question: which would be more interesting: War of the Worlds but from the Martian perspective or Independence Day from the Harvesters' perspective?

HDE 226868

@Mithrandir24601 Ah, reading the words of the master himself! It's not necessarily the greatest for bedtime reading, to put it one way. I view reading Principia as more of a "for fun" project - or else to better appreciate modern scientific writings (and textbooks)!

Gryphon

15:37

@FutureHistorian I've never seen Independence Day, so I unfortunately couldn't say.

Future Historian

Well, it was corny, but fun to watch.

That speech, though.

In less than an hour, aircraft from here will join others from around the world, and you will be launching the largest aerial battle in the history of mankind. [pauses] Mankind. That word should have new meaning for all of us today. We can't be consumed by our petty differences anymore. We will be united in our common interests.

Perhaps it's fate that today is the Fourth of July, and you will once again be fighting for our freedom. Not from tyranny, oppression, or persecution… but from annihilation. We're fighting for our right to live. To exist. And should we win the day, the Fourth of July will no longer be known as an American holiday, but as the day when the world declared in one voice: We will not go quietly into the night!

We will not vanish without a fight! We're going to live on! We're going to survive! Today we celebrate our Independence Day!

In memory of President Stephen Whitemore; hero of the War of 1996. You will be missed (unless it is the sequel, which is terrible).

Future Historian

15:55

@FerretCivilization? Come to think of it, China getting the entire coastline nuked is a bad idea, right?

Because I reread the timeline and turns out I made China nuke the entire coastline of the country, starting with Hong Kong.

Ferret Civilization

Probably.

Future Historian

@FerretCivilization? Would it still be a good means to buy humanity time?

Even though it would be more trouble than it is worth to launch SLBMs against China's major cities across the whole Chinese coast?

After all: not everything in China's coastline was nuked.

Just the major cities that were already overrun by the Visitors.

Hong Kong was the first to be obliterated.

Ferret Civilization

Depends on the amount of enemies in them, but overall no nuclear is not an overall smart idea in this case.

Future Historian

@FerretCivilization? Why?

Because it would end up in the long-term causing radiation concerns in the Chinese coastline once reconstruction begins?

Or just the fact that it would not be enough to delay the Visitors?

Because we have to buy ourselves time somehow.

@FerretCivilization? And how many major cities are in China's entire coast anyway?

Ferret Civilization

Because it sends the message to the common person that your home was not worth retaking, and that it was worth killing your countrymen for.

Future Historian

16:01

Because I would like to see how much TNT equivalent alone out of the total cities destroyed by nuclear strikes in the Invasion would be in China's obliterated coastline.

@FerretCivilization? PR nightmare?

Oh........................

Well, just what parts of China would you say are better off nuked in the coastline of China?

None?

Because Tibet is probably something the CPC would rather see gone, but.....you know.....Tibetans are going to be very bloody angry if Lhasa gets nuked.

So, if the PLA had to choose between sacrificing Tibet and the Chinese coastline (where most of the Visitor forces are landing in the nation anyway), which would it be?

Ferret Civilization

Anyone would be angry to see their home nuked. Why fight for a home that you no longer have.

Future Historian

True. But....do they have a choice?

If the Visitors already leveled these cities, you might as well destroy the cities that were overrun.

So, basically, if the humans cannot have it, neither can the Visitors.

Ferret Civilization

They have a choice of which case they want to fight for. You seem like you really want the military to fall apart. Desertion would be a thing. Leveled, something that we have done to our own cities in wars, can still be retaken. Russia is pretty good at showing this.

Future Historian

Oh oh.

@FerretCivilization. Do you think using the nuclear option is a bad idea for the humans?

In general?

Not just nuking all of China's coast, but including the other cities that got obliterated by the humans in atomic fire.

Because I would say that desperate times call for desperate measures, including nuclear weapons.

Besides, I wonder how much longer or shorter the Invasion would be if the humans reserved their nukes for later.

Instead of having to nuke chunks of Earth just to buy humanity time to survive.

Ferret Civilization

I mean the nuclear option was the sign that we gave up in the long run. Like with the Cold War, it was the last option, for both sides it was to be used to slow down the enemy and take as much out as possible before dying.

Future Historian

16:08

Oh.

So, @FerretCivilization? How much longer before we start nuking cities like Boston, Seattle, Shanghai, Hong Kong, New Delhi, etc.?

As in: how much longer should I wait before I start the nuclear option during the Invasion?

Ferret Civilization

Depends on how you want to write it, can do it right at the start or at the end. Both have ups and downs. Same with not using it at all.

Future Historian

@FerretCivilization? So, by the second day of the Invasion, that being the 18th of August of 2024, China nukes Hong Kong.

And this is the first time since WWII that a nuclear device has been used in a war.

And it would become more frequently used as every hour passes that the Visitors overrun our planet.

Not to the point of causing nuclear winter, but.....enough that the humans get desperate to a degree.

@FerretCivilization? Just how much TNT equivalent can 3 90 kt nuclear warheads per city cause on China's entire coastline?

The modern JL-2 SLBM can carry 3 90 kt nuclear warheads.

For one nuclear target.

Now picture that but across all of China's major coastal cities.

@AndyD273? How many JL-2 SLBMs would it take for China to destroy every major city along its own coastline?

AndyD273

@FutureHistorian How many major cities are there along it's coastline? Not sure where you draw the line between major/minor

Future Historian

I mean population centres (metropolitian areas included) of 1 million or more inhabitants.

AndyD273

@FutureHistorian Ok, so how many of those are there?

Future Historian

16:17

Basically, if the population centre has 1 million or more people, the Visitors are probably going to land there and overrun the city.

I am going to check now.

Coastline of China

China’s coastline covers approximately 14,500 km (around 9,010 mi) from the Bohai gulf on the north to the Gulf of Tonkin on the south. Most of the northern half is low lying, although some of the mountains and hills of Northeast China and the Shandong Peninsula extend to the coast. The southern half is more irregular. In Zhejiang and Fujian provinces, for example, much of the coast is rocky and steep. South of this area the coast becomes less rugged: Low mountains and hills extend more gradually to the coast, and small river deltas are common. China’s coasts are on the East China Sea, Korea Bay...

Does this give you an idea?

Ferret Civilization

Um, isn't kt a measurement of tnt... Like 1 kt is 1000 tons of tnt?

Future Historian

Take a look at each place and see how many people in the metropolitian area they can occupy.

@FerretCivilization. It is in TNT equivalent.

AndyD273

I think I could get the job done with 10,000 JL-2's, just to make sure you got everyone.

Future Historian

90 kt is equivalent to the energy equivalent of 90,000 tonnes of TNT.

@AndyD273. I only need enough to delay the Visitors, not kill the survivors.

Alright?

AndyD273

You really should be thorough. This isn't time for half measures.

(This is my way of saying I'm in the middle of something so can't do much in the way of research for a while.)

kingledion

16:20

@FutureHistorian According to Wikipedia, China has exactly 100 cities of over a million people.

That is a pretty spread out invasion by the visitors.

List of urban areas by population

This is a list of contiguous urban areas of the world ordered according to population as of 2014/2015. The figures here have been taken from Demographia's "World Urban Areas" study. == Definitions and issues == Demographia defines an urban area (urbanized area agglomeration or urban centre) as a continuously built up land mass of urban development that is within a labor market (i.e. metropolitan area or metropolitan region), without regard for administrative boundaries (i.e. municipality, city or commune). Except in Australia, the authorities use a minimum urban density definition of 400 persons...

Future Historian

@kingledion? How many of them are in the Chinese coastline?

100 cities with 1,000,000 or more people, but which ones are in China's coastline?

kingledion

I'm not going through all of them to count, you're on your own on that

4

HDE 226868

16:32

@Mithrandir24601 Mathematical Methods - the book you mentioned on meta - is actually one of my textbooks for next semester. It's just a half-semester course, but I intend on keeping the book for a while.

kingledion

@HDE226868 Yeah, you never know when an apocalypse will show up

Future Historian

Well, I counted 62 out of 100 major cities to obliterate.

Great.................................

HDE 226868

I'm now imagining post-apocalyptic science classes:
"Now, back before the nuclear winter set in, we studied photosynthesis, which was important the world over."
*pauses*
"Since then, the science of ecology has undergone some changes."

4

kingledion

@HDE226868 By the way, you got totally jobbed on that 3 books physics answer. Half the people above you didn't even answer the question properly, and no one else took the time to talk about what is or isn't in the books

Future Historian

@kingledion? How many JL-2s with 3 90 kt warheads would be needed to wipe out 62 out of 100 major cities, and many of those cities in China, especially the southern coastline are literally next to each other.

kingledion

16:38

And now those questions are garnering close votes from the close-vote goblins

Internet based democracy can be frustrating

@FutureHistorian How is the answer not 62?

HDE 226868

@kingledion Yeah, I know. I think the best answer on that one was the one suggesting the Feynman lectures; I upvoted maybe one other because it had a decent argument.

Future Historian

Because.....many of those cities are literally right next to each other.

The ones closest to the coast are going in fire first.

Oh and 64 if you count Hong Kong and Macau.

Sorry about that.

HDE 226868

Ah, well. It happens.

Future Historian

62 NOT Hong Kong or Macau major cities that get nuked in China's coastline.

64 in total.

Mithrandir24601

@HDE226868 my third year GR lecturer was Hobson - he was absolutely fantastic :D

kingledion

16:40

@HDE226868 I think the feynman lectures are the worst ones. I bet you a dollar written word translates better than spoken word over the eons. Anything designed to be spoke won't translate well to another, possibly vastly divergent, culture.

HDE 226868

@Mithrandir24601 I find myself jealous.

kingledion

@FutureHistorian A 90 kt warhead isn't that big. Better drop a couple on each city.

Future Historian

And China needs at least one more nuclear submarine before it has enough JR-2 SLBMs to do the job.

Each Type 094 class nuclear submarine carries 12 JL-2 SLBMs.

HDE 226868

@kingledion Like I wrote in a comment, I think they're better as supplementary material rather than as the sole source of knowledge. They provide slightly better intuition in some cases.

And now I should head out. I'll be back in here in a few hours.

Future Historian

However, the Type 096 is scheduled to replace the Type 094, so by then.....assuming they have at least one in active service, they could have 4 Type 094s that launch 12 JL-2 SLBMs and one that launches 24 of them.

And not even JL-2 SLBMs.

The newer JL-3s would be carried by the Type 096-class nuclear submarine China is currently developing.

And based on the 2013 announcement, assuming the PLA has had very little delays in the development of the Type 096, I could see the first finish construction in 2023 and then months before the Invasion, it enters active service.

I am going to assume a Type 096 enters active service on the 19th of April of 2024.

Just a few months before the Visitor spacecraft enters orbit on the 29th of July and the Invasion begins on the 17th of August of that year.

kingledion

16:46

You know the number s you are using are probably wrong, right?

You can adjust fleet strengths marginally to fit your story

Future Historian

I know.

But of course, I assumed that China has not had any delays in developing the Type 096, which is unlikely to have NOT happened.

Since, for all we know, China has had a few delays in the development of the Type 096 and we probably never even got the announcement.

Since.....well, China has a thing for military secrecy, like their former Soviet partners prior the Sino-Soviet Split.

So.............

@FerretCivilization? Do you think that, based on the information we DO have publicly available, that by 2024, the Type 096 could enter active service?

As in: the successor to the Type 094 class PLA Navy nuclear submarine sees only one constructed (and finished) by the time the Invasion begins?

Ferret Civilization

Maybe.

Mithrandir24601

@HDE226868 :P

Future Historian

17:19

Thank you!

So, 24 JL-3s + a total of 48 JL-2s ready to obliterate the 64 designated targets.

And ONLY if the PLA determines that the city has been overrun.

Aka: if there are still a lot of civilians or PLA forces in the city, the PLA conventional assets could still help evacuate the surviving civilians or get out of the city before the warheads descend on their target.

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