The Factory Floor

SCPilot

00:24

Also doing more research into the dragons of Wings of Fire universe. It's given me some ideas for the dragons that inhabit the same world as the Verrisirs. I've decided to make them about the size of a large elephant. They're intelligent and have lived in harmony (except for some bumps in both species's histories) with the Verrisirs, and that some drakes (that's what I'm calling them) have either served in the Verrisiran government.

Shalvenay

02:25

hey there @sphennings

Secret

04:51

Last night dream has a Primer like base:

I then saw Albert by the school gate. He has returned
Albert: I want to visit Cheryl
Me: But you cannot just went back simply because you want to visit an extra copy of Cheryl besides the one we have. We need to minimise the amount of disruption to the timeline.
Albert: Well, I saw myself arriving a few moments ago, so...
Me: Then you assumed it is already a time loop
Me: Besides, going back to visit a past version of Cheryl means your own past self will not get to meet her after school, which means over time, you (present day) will felt a memory of sorrow due to your past self missing Cher…

Secret

09:06

Some possible hints on the nature of magic inspired from Season 4 Episode 2 of The Librarians:

One freak incident is normal, two is unusual, three, four five... is magic

Perhaps:

Secret

09:35

> Magic is about unlikely events happening so enmass such that law of large numbers and probability fails

(Well, at least for our universe, as the most overarching physics law we knew the applies to all of physics, the second law of thermodynamics, is based on the nature of probability)

It's not a sufficient condition, however, for if you have a system that violate statistical assumptions, then it means there is a deterministic law governing it, and that is not necessary magic (true nature still under investigation)

(As for quantum, you have probability and statistics itself acting in some deterministic fashion, so it is something in between...)

Meanwhile, I don't know how to think about ritual based magic. In a rough sense, it does behave like programming and/or engineering

This is because ritual is about getting the right equipment, people or objects with the right properties, dance moves and place them in the correct position, then some prescribed effect happens

Thus it is almost like building a machine by putting components in the right place, or writing code

There must be a reason why we think of rituals are more magical rather than physical and why rituals are not considered as engineering and programming in purely magic settings

Secespitus

09:59

@Secret The people still need to be able to make contact with the magical energy around thme / inside them /... That means while the people, stuff, etc. are the same each time, the people have to call upon the non-deterministic magic, making the whole thing magical again.

dot_Sp0T

10:18

Still haven't been smitten @James - you're getting slow OLD MAN

Mithrandir24601

11:34

@dot_Sp0T Maybe @James just realised that your attempt at a time-loop yesterday didn't work, so gave up on you?

Secret

13:14

@Secespitus Indeterminism is actually a pretty hard topic.

in The h Bar, Apr 12 '16 at 16:06, by ACuriousMind

The law of large numbers says that any average you get from samples will converge to the true average with repeated sampling. I still don't get what we're looking for.

in The h Bar, Apr 12 '16 at 16:15, by ACuriousMind

@barrycarter It is just a hunch. I don't actually know what happens to sampling from the Cauchy distribution

in The h Bar, Apr 12 '16 at 15:59, by David Z

This might be another way to think about it: You can always pick a sample of plusses/minuses out of a bag and compute the fraction of e.g. plusses seen. In frequentist probability, you use that fraction as a predictor of how many plusses you'll get in your next sample. If I understand correctly, what we're talking about here is a process where the fraction obtained from one sample is not a useful prediction of the next sample.

To understand what magic is will somehow require pulling indeterminism apart from probability and statistics, I am not sure how one can do so

kingledion

@HDE226868 Hey, so I found my new favorite comment on the site and its yours: worldbuilding.stackexchange.com/a/28268/23519

The comment on the deleted post. For some reason it made me laugh out loud.

Secespitus

@Secret For most usecases in any medium you probably don't want truly random magic. You want people saying "You know, I have no idea how they do it. Maybe they were born with a certain talent. Maybe they just have a knack for this kind of stuff. But me? Average mcNormal? I have no idea how to do that and it looks completely random to me."

while the mages say "I experimented and don't ask me Why, but this seems to work! It's kinda risky and you gotta have a feel for it, but it's pretty cool once you get the hang of it."

@kingledion Any chance you could copy it to the chat for the <10k users?

dot_Sp0T

@Secespitus seconded

Secret

@Secespitus Hmm, that might help me to get a better feel on thinking about what magical means. hmm...

dot_Sp0T

oh boy @Secespitus you're getting more rep than me, I need more questions

Secespitus

13:26

@dot_Sp0T Woohooo!

Secret

That also fits the "restricted group" explanation of magic that I read some time in the past. Magic is often restricted to a small group of individuals, objects etc.

Secespitus

@dot_Sp0T Most of it comes from two good posts where the questions hit the HNQ

Mithrandir24601

@Secret You need to be careful using the words 'deterministic' and 'probability/statistics' in the same sentence - e.g. 'deterministically statistical' sounds essentially like 'indeterministic' while 'indeterministically statistical' also means 'indeterministic', which will still have it's own sort of deterministic statistics somewhere (even uniformly random is still a well defined property after all) i.e. what you've got is simply different levels of determinism

Secespitus

@Secret Those that love the risk enough to regularly experiment, but are cautious enough to keep their safety margins and lucky enough to survive their first encounters with magic

Mithrandir24601

@kingledion unfortunately, some of us don't have the rep to view said comments, so I can't help but ask: What's the comment?

Secret

13:31

If I understood correctly, indeterministically statistical is the case corresponds to quantum mechanics (since while the measurement outcome is probabilistic, the wavefunction evolves deterministically) , whereas deterministically statistical is classical statistical behaviour

I have something to add after this paragraph, but I want to make sure I got these two concepts right first

Mithrandir24601

@Secret to my knowledge "indeterministically statistical" and "deterministically statistical" aren't well defined, so if you want to define it like that for your own personal use, I don't see a problem. If you want to use it to talk to other people, you might need to tell them that this is what you mean though :P

Secret

I see. I will try to be more precise:

Here's my eh... thoughts on this issue at hand:

We have two broad classes of phenomenon: Deterministic and Indeterministic

These can be subdivided into many subclasses

We first start with the one we are most familar with:

Deterministic phenomenon: These are the phenomenon which is governed by a set evolution law such that given all the initial conditions (and sometimes velocities or other initial parameters), you can use the law to calculate or determine the outcome with 100% certainty

Mithrandir24601

are (classical) chaotic phenomenon 'indeterministically statistical' or 'deterministically statistical'?

Secret

I never thought about the statistical aspect of chaotic phenomenon, because chaos is ultimately deterministic. i.e. if you start with the same initial conditions, and ensure no external parameters changes, then you always get the same evolution, even though if the evolution itself cannot be described or computed by some formula (finite string of meaningful symbols)

so it should belong to deterministically statistical, I think

(cont.) All classical physics are deterministic, with most describable by mathematical laws in the form of equations and formulae. The remaining ones (chaos) however don't have a equation to describe them, but given the same initial conditions, all their future behaviour can be determined. (i.e. If you have many copies of those systems with the same initial conditions, you will get the same evolution in all of them, 100%)

Statistical and stochastic phenomenon: These are phenomenon involving a lot of external factors that interacts with the system, and/or imprecision of determining some of its parameters. These phenomenon will give different results even with the same initial conditions, but their long term or ensemble behaviour can always be described by some probability distribution

These include many stochastic processes such as brownian motion, statistical mechanics etc.

Thus these are indeterministically statistical

Quantum phenomenon: The system is a state that lives in a hilbert space and evolve according to a deterministic law (schrodinger equation). However, the outcome of the measurement is a probability distribution obtained from the state. Thus in a sense the probability distribution evolves deterministically, but the outcome is probablistic and hence statistical

These are thus "deterministically indeterministically statistical" (I think quantum is an interesting case of indeterministic phenomenon, because it is the statistics itself that follows deterministic laws, so it is a bit hard to describe which category it belongs to)

Secret

13:53

So in short:

Deterministic non chaotic: Given the same initial condition, the outcome is always the same, and there exists a formula to describe the evolution

Deterministic chaotic: Given the same initial condition, the outcome is always the same, but future prediction of the evolution may be restricted to a small range of time or region of space. There may be no formulae that describe the individual evolution, but the phenomenon fit certain patterns (rapidly diversing neighbourhing trajectories given by a positive Lyapunov exponent, as well other conditions) and these rules are describbable by some formulae

Mithrandir24601

@Secret so, what's the difference between your '(in)deterministically statistical' and (in)deterministic?

Secret

uh, I am still typing

Stochastic: Given the same initial condition, the outcome is sampled from one or more probability distributions and the parameters are random variables at each point in time, thus there is no way to predict exactly the outcome, but we can determine its average behaviour or the outcome of an ensemble

Quantum: Given the same initial state, its evolution in time (assuming we use the same hamiltonian each time) is always 100% predictable and the same. However, the value of any observable which the state is not an eigenstate of is sampled from a probability distribution calculated from the state by some formula. Thus quantum is an inbetween case where the pdf follows a deterministic law

And now to answer you question:

The above covers well everything in physics. However since this is worldbuilding, we seemed to have an extra category:

kingledion

@Mithrandir24601 @Secespitus user14744 wrote: "Wow I think I love you people"

to which @HDE226868 responded, "Thats great, mate, but this isn't an answer." Along with a presumed flag for deletion.

Mithrandir24601

@kingledion Excellent! :D

Secret

14:08

> Magic: In order to have magic that is magical and cannot be a subset of science, it seems to be a class of phenomenon that not only there is no formula to predict its future evolution, we cannot even have any pdfs to sample from to describe its behaviour

Secespitus

@kingledion Nice, thank you :D

Secret

If there are magic that is deterministic (that is, despite there are no rules to describe it and no statistics can be calculated, it nevertheless will give the same outcome if given the same initial condition), then given indefinite technology advancement, it seems sooner or later the deterministic law will be discovered and then that magic becomes a subset of physics

I cannot think of a magic that can become immune to indefinite technological advancement. This is what I mean to be "indeterministic non statistical" in the very beginning of the wall of text

Mithrandir24601

@Secret so, essentially, I would have revised your definitions so that everything described by physics (classical, quantum and even 'non-physics' past the boundary of quantum) are 'deterministically statistical' i.e. you can determine the statistics and magic is 'indeterministically statistical i.e. you can't, although how you can't is the hard, most likely impossible bit)

Secret

Previous chats in this room have found possible candidates of Clark's 3rd law violating magic, but none of them can be used because they can literally cause anything to happen in some unpredictable manner (in the above sense)

@Mithrandir24601 Exactly, and I believe that is the nature of true magic (Magic that violates Clark's 3rd law)

Mithrandir24601

@Secret ... in which case, they sample 'anything' from a uniformly random distribution and thus, the statistics can be known (in theory)

@Secret although my favourite, by far, is still the magic from the Magician trilogy

Hmm... Patrick Rothfuss' double magic system is also brilliant

Secret

14:15

levgrossman.com/magicians-trilogy

these ones?

Mithrandir24601

@Secret yeah, those ones :)

Secret

Hmm, I'll see if I can get a copy of those. It might help me to get closer to solving (what I called) the unsolved question of magic in worldbuilding (and metaphysics):

> Existence of true magic: Does there exists magic that violates Clark's 3rd Law which can still be used?

(Status of the question: We knew there exists at least one class of Clark's 3rd Law violating magic (as described in past transcripts), and also summarise in a concise manner as follows, but the question is still open for true magic that is usable in a setting)

6 mins ago, by Mithrandir24601

@Secret ... in which case, they sample 'anything' from a uniformly random distribution and thus, the statistics can be known (in theory)

James

14:49

Mornin all.

Mithrandir24601

@James ni hao

kingledion

15:47

Man, asking questions on this site can really be a pain in the dick. I ask a perfectly reasonable question, with some nice story telling, and I get 23 comments and a sarcastic answer within the first 35 page views.

Ferret Civilization

Better than getting no comments and an off base answer. Ha.

kingledion

I suppose so

dot_Sp0T

@kingledion wanna link the q? I am sure I can up that

kingledion

1

Q: How high-def can my TV be without computers?

Introduction See background information here. In the Harmonious Republic of Mars, the finest forms may be found of any and all luxuries available in the Solar system. This includes moving pictures. Only in the Harmonious Republic does mankind watch, rather than read, the news. And in color! Wi...

Please add more snarky comments, that would be ideal

dot_Sp0T

@kingledion I will

James

16:08

@kingledion That is the one thing I truly excel at in life.

Mithrandir24601

@kingledion Can I define any TV as a computer then?

sphennings

@kingledion When does an ASIC stop being an ASIC and start being a computer?

James

Ok don't get me wrong I love the anatomically correct series, but you can't create an anatomically correct Typhon.

That's like saying I want an anatomically correct Apophis

Mithrandir24601

@James This is Worldbuilding! We create whatever we like in an anatomically correct form whether it's possible or not!

James

Or a hurricane/earthquake mixxed with snakes and volcanos

@Mithrandir24601 If it is not possible it can't be anatomically correct.

Mithrandir24601

16:20

@James We'll make it anatomically correct.

2

James

@Mithrandir24601 He's going to have to shrink just a bit.

Mithrandir24601

Oh, I know - I'll create a world in which it is possible

James

In size and strength he surpassed all the offspring of Earth. As far as the thighs he was of human shape and of such prodigious bulk that he out-topped all the mountains, and his head often brushed the stars. One of his hands reached out to the west and the other to the east, and from them projected a hundred dragons' heads. From the thighs downward he had huge coils of vipers, which when drawn out, reached to his very head and emitted a loud hissing.

His body was all winged: unkempt hair streamed on the wind from his head and cheeks; and fire flashed from his eyes

sphennings

This is why 9 times out of 10 I suggest that you don't explain and just allow the elements you want in your story. It's called fantasy for a reason. It's supposed to be fantastic not grounded in reality.

2

Future Historian

I am back.

And @SCPilot. It is 1586 right now.

And Rome fell in the late 1570s.

This is Earth in this alternate, convoluted 1586.

sphennings

16:29

It helps when maps have a key.

kingledion

16:44

@sphennings ASICs already start being a computer

I honestly don't understand why the definition of computer is so up in the air.

@Mithrandir24601 A GE PortaColor is not a computer, as specified in the qustion

Maybe I should say that anything with memory is a computer

sphennings

@kingledion Many can't execute arbitrary code.

kingledion

@sphennings I don't think you could get to complex ASICs without going through an intermediate step that can execute arbitrary code.

sphennings

@kingledion Theoretically you could implement any computation in hardware instead of software.

kingledion

And doing so would definitely get you burnt at the stake

sphennings

@kingledion And sure certain computation tasks like emulating a processor are effectively the same as having a computer. But it's a hard line to define.

kingledion

16:49

I dunno, it seems pretty intuitive. Anything that turns input into output and can trace its evolution back to the Bombe or ENIAC is a computer.

sphennings

A 7400 series AND gate turns input into output. It's definitely not a computer.

Mithrandir24601

@kingledion throws tantrum stop ruining my fun at ruining your question! :P

sphennings

The 4 bit ALU in the 7400 series isn't a computer either.

kingledion

@sphennings Well, that also doesn't trace its evolution back to ENIAC either. ENIAC didn't have any transistors, so the two crossed paths later on

The relay had been invented separately, earlier, and the and gate could come independently from teh relay

sphennings

@kingledion So If I wired a bunch of 7400 logic series chips into a computer it wouldn't be a computer since their lineage is just logic gates.

If I made a computer out of relays would it be a computer?

kingledion

16:56

Again, I feel like we are being pendantic here. The concept of wiring a bunch of relays into a computer was first expressed in the Bombe. Therefore, your idea now evolved from the Bombe, and so it is heresy.

sphennings

The Bombe is just a math machine. It lacks many fundamental features of a general purpose computing machine.

Such as the ability to be programmed.

Mithrandir24601

This is so much easier when talking about quantum computing - either it's universal or not

sphennings

By that logic everything that uses a transistor is something that takes input, and produces output, with a lineage that can be traced back to Bombe.

kingledion

@sphennings I dunno man. I don't even see why people want to fight over it. The point that I have tried to make in the comments is: the Harmonious Police burn you at the stake if you design a computer. So no one knows in universe, what a computer is or what it isn't. Its not worth trying to make any sort of computational engine due to the risk of death, so people don't do it.

If it sounds like it can be described as a computer, it is bad.

The concept of no computers wasn't fought over in the last question: worldbuilding.stackexchange.com/questions/100613/…

I just don't know why it is fought over now.

sphennings

17:16

@kingledion Because televisions do a lot of work encoding and decoding signals. This was originally done using discrete components then integrated circuits. Today there are still specialized chips that are used protocols like HDMI. It makes development of these chips easier if they can have microcode and firmware on them since it's faster to iterate software than hardware.

To the best of my knowledge there is no reason for these chips need to execute microcode. It could be replaced with ROM or heavily optimized similar to how bitcoins are now mined with heavily specialized ASICS. Those chips are good for only one thing. Calculating hashes quickly. You can't use them for anything else.

kingledion

Well, I did my research. I picked the last point that a television was not a computer, by the story's reckoning.

Porta-Color

General Electric's Porta-Color was the first "portable" color television introduced in the United States in 1966. The Porta-Color set introduced a new variation of the shadow mask display tube. It had the electron guns arranged in an in-line configuration, rather than RCA's delta arrangement. The main benefit of the in-line gun arrangement is that it simplified the convergence process, and did not become easily misaligned when moved, thus making true portability possible. There were many variations of this set produced from its introduction in 1966 until 1978, all using GE's Compactron vacuum tubes...

Thats why I'm so cheese about this. I did the research. The question is well defined.

Mithrandir24601

@kingledion On the other hand, a plant's input is (sun)light and that's about it, while a TV's input is some form of electronic signal and output is a moving image

sphennings

That's exactly it we need to know what a computer is by your story's reckoning.

3

kingledion

@sphennings I can't fully specify my world in the space given for a question. Well researched examples to map out the limits are appropriate.

@Mithrandir24601 What is that supposed to mean? If you're trying to be silly, I'm not having it.

sphennings

How does my world define a computer? is entirely opinion based. There was a time when a computer was someone who did calculations with pen and paper.

kingledion

17:25

@sphennings But that's not the question. I told you how my world defines a computer. If a reasonable policeman thinks it is a computer, you and all your knowledge of computers gets killed. Slide rules and a PortaColor are not computers. Extrapolate the details from there.

sphennings

@kingledion That's a great definition for in your world. I don't know what a reasonable policeman in your world thinks a computer is.

kingledion

Same thing a reasonable policeman thinks here.

sphennings

@kingledion So my phone, scientific calculator, and smart watch aren't computers?

kingledion

Ouch

I think a better definition is: anything that anyone has ever though was a computer, is a computer

sphennings

So a person doing calculations by hand?

kingledion

17:27

People who are computers are specifically excepted in the question

sphennings

@kingledion So ASICs aren't computers.

Mithrandir24601

@kingledion in one question, you want a plant, in another you want a TV. The stipulation for both is that you can't have a computer. In the white-grey-black world of "what [x] thinks a computer is" in your world, a plant is white, while a TV is very much on the darker shade of grey - why is a porta-colour OK? It doesn't have any computer components. OK, so what are computer components?

sphennings

Or at least aren't always computers. I think we're back where we started.

kingledion

By that definition, no, but you won't be able to develop many complex ones (like bitcoin miners) without already having comptuers

So I'm fine with that definition

@Mithrandir24601 Fair enough

sphennings

@kingledion You could design an ASIC bitcoin miner by hand. The same way you could design a plant by hand. It would just take more time.

There wouldn't be much reason for that particular chip without computers but that's a different question.

Point is you could design an arbitrary complex ASIC for doing probably every computation task needed by a modern screen. It's just easier to do it in software than harder.

@kingledion VGA monitors didn't have a computer inside them for instance.

kingledion

17:32

@sphennings Then VGA monitors would be fine. And you can't really do that with ASICs; you will run into constraints with memory, and eventually the cost of making something so complex for a single use.

sphennings

@kingledion You have the memory on another chip which isn't a computer. It sounds like your society would have greatly pushed the boundaries of what they are doing on ASICs with the designs being heavily regulated to prevent them from becoming general purpose.

Chip foundries would be regularly inspected by the government to make sure that no general purpose components were being developed.

It would be hard to completely regulate this. Any computational architecture can be replicated using just NAND gates.

kingledion

Actually, only the simplest electronics are created, and only then for Police approved purposes.

The goal of this line of questions is to band the computer without banning the transistor for specialized applicalations, like an LED

So anything that is electronic and/or computational is banned. However, the PortaColor is not banned, as it is government approved

sphennings

@kingledion It'd be easier to ban simpler circuits and only allow sufficiently complex circuits. It's hard to use a VGA encoder chip as a logic gate.

But not the LED?

it's sounds less like certain electronics are banned and more like certain use cases are banned. A calculator may be acceptable, perhaps even a scientific calculator but not one that could be programmed.

kingledion

You're not approaching this from the right perspective. The perspective is, what do the police allow. Obviously, misusing something that is generally allowed as a computer is bad.

@sphennings Well, I did state in the question that electronic calculators are forbidden, but slide rules are allowed.

sphennings

@kingledion I don't know what the police allow in your world. That's what I'm trying to find out.

And by calculator you mean 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,0,+,-,*,/,=,. keys right?

kingledion

17:44

But its written in the question

If it does 2+2 and isn't an abacus, its a calculator.

I just don't see why people on this site want to define common use words to death.

sphennings

But you allow a slide rule.

kingledion

Manually operated mechanical calculator with no memory, same category of things as an abacus or nomograph.

sphennings

@kingledion All we have to communicate on this site is words. Computer is a extremely complex concept with many different meanings. Technically my phone is a computer but there are times where I need a computer despite having my phone on me in my back pocket.

@kingledion My first thought answer "Just use an ASIC" is obviously something you consider a computer in your world. Yet it isn't a computer by some definitions.

kingledion

So that is an appropriate clarification for a comment. I wouldn't have thought of an ASIC when I was defining the question.

But people throwing answers up claiming that shading hardware somehow answers the question is a load of hooey.

sphennings

@kingledion While we do disagree quite a bit. I'm not trying to razz you. I think the world your building is a cool one and would like to see the results of your effort.

kingledion

17:52

Well, thanks

I'm sure the question will get re-opened even if it gets closed. I just hate going through a pedantic flame war over minor definitions

sphennings

@kingledion I'd disagree that the definition is minor. I think the number of regularly active users getting involved with this shows that it's important. What I'm taking away from talking to you is that the definition is somewhat arbitrary since it's up to the whims of corrupt officers. This makes what is and isn't allowed hard for you to explain to us.

I'd hazard a guess that the average beat cop wouldn't be hunting for computers. The average consumer would be using consumer goods who's designs were approved by the ministry of silicon before production could begin. Most of the dangers would be punks, hardware recyclers cobbling their devices together in secret workshops.

Especially for something like a television the more important definition is what can be approved for manufacture. Which is probably a mix of some complex bureaucratic definition and how much you can afford in bribes.

kingledion

Seems reasonable

sphennings

I hope it goes without saying that it's your world so take what you like and leave the rest.

kingledion

Well this conversation was nice for the definition edits to re-open

sphennings

@kingledion Let me know when you edit it so I can put in my vote.

Separatrix

18:07

@kingledion, perhaps the wording should be programmable electronic computer

kingledion

@Separatrix that sounds like a good idea

Separatrix

@kingledion perhaps even with a "digital" in there, but that might allow too much slack for an AC

but it allows the Porta-Color to be a single function analogue computer without falling under the ban

kingledion

I was considering electronic, but I didn't want there to be ways to slip a mechanical or otherwise computer past the ban that I don't know about. The key word is programmable

@Separatrix I was also considering that anythign with memory would be banned

sphennings

@kingledion There's the concept of general purpose computing. Which seems to be what you're wanting to prevent.

kingledion

But I don't know all the ramafications of that, and what might or might not get around the limit

sphennings

18:11

You seem fine with some level high tech devices but they should be able to do only one thing.

kingledion

Honestly, I left it sort of vague in the first place because I wanted to avoid rules lawyers doing exactly what Molot did

Separatrix

@kingledion So you got me grilling you on exactly what the rules are, you can't win

kingledion

Yeah then I overspecified incorrectly, and get a GPU answer.

Separatrix

I like the idea of a rebel group building a functional mechanical computer though, leave them a loophole :)

Secespitus

@kingledion Your question is attracting very weird responses. Two people VTCing and still "answering", one even mentioning that it's just a longer comment and not wanting it deleted...

kingledion

18:14

@Separatrix Oh no, no rebel groups on Mars, its much too Harmonious. The rebels will come from the Outlands, in the space between worlds :)

@Secespitus Yeah, I don't know what the deal is. I start putting more effort into questions so I can ask good ones like @Green and I end up with this mess.

Separatrix

@kingledion harmonious because you say so, people not being harmonious will be dealt with accordingly

kingledion

They will be Harmonized

Secespitus

@kingledion No idea why your question is getting these kinds of responses. One person VTC/answering is rare already, but that second one? I can't remember seeing something like that before.

kingledion

I asked another one a while back that elicited similar commentary:

10

Q: Can man live on ostrich eggs alone?

I am building a world inspired by Gondwana, the great southern mega-continent, filled with plants and creatures that live in or evolved first on the southern Continents of Earth. On this world, there are few large animals suitable for domestication, a few elephants and giant sloth, but much of th...

reality-check domestication food

In that case, I just had a title that didn't agree with the question, and too many people answered the title and not the question

That was super frustrating, because I didn't get the answers I wanted, and I can't re-ask the question with a better title, since that was a duplicate

On the plus side, I've given up on my ostrich nomad stories, so there's that

sphennings

Edit the body to agree with the title and the answers. Then ask another question where the title and body agree while indicating the difference from your old question.

kingledion

18:21

@sphennings When I did that a mod rolled it back saying I was being unfair to the existing answers.

Its really no wonder we get 'why the hell are these questions closed' posts on meta on a monthly basis, when even a top 10 site user can't figure out how to ask questions correctly

Separatrix

@kingledion That's why we have the sandbox

sphennings

Reading the edit history you edited the title of your existing question to invalidate the existing answers. I was suggesting editing body of your existing question to agree with the answers that you had received. "Can a human survive on nothing but eggs?"

Separatrix

On PCG and Puzzling I believe they're much tougher about encouraging its use

sphennings

Then ask can a nomadic tribe survive primarily off eggs? as a separate question.

kingledion

@sphennings Ah, I see

sphennings

18:25

Then you're not invalidating answers, and you can ask a new question that isn't a duplicate.

Green

@kingledion I'm flattered you think I ask good questions. Thank you.

Green

19:07

Anyone familiar with the Netflix series Castlevania or at least seen the first episode?

dot_Sp0T

nope

But I need good questions for more rep, please advise

James

@Green Yes

Green

@James okay. I rewatched episode 1 last night and it seems a shame that Dracula seeks revenge on all of Wallachia instead of just the priesthood.

Before he took that overbroad approach he was pretty relatable to me.

James

@Green Fair point...

hadn't thought of that.

Green

Anyway, that got me wondering what would happen if Dracula had taken revenge only on the clergy and set himself up as the replacement, emphasizing science over superstition.

James

19:14

I don't think its totally unreasonable for him to attack everyone but maybe it would have made more sense to start with just the priesthood and then have it escalate from their.

Though in dracula's defense the people were there in the mob cheering things on.

Green

...that would kind of make him into the Patrician from Ahnk Morepork in the Discworld series.

James

@Green You'd get a really boring story about peace and periodic tables and ...citric acid cycles or something.

Green

@James true, but those in a job aren't really thinking for themselves. The clergy had definitely set them up to do that.

kingledion

@Green I literally started asking this series of questions because of your T-Rex and Velociraptor ones.

I guess I should have asked about more dinosaurs

Secespitus

@Green He did give them a warning and some time before setting out to kill every single one of them if I remember the first episode correctly.

Green

19:18

@James I'm not so sure. Altering a population's worldview in such a short time is pretty radical.

Secespitus

That reminds me that I wanted to watch more from it

Green

@Secespitus true. He did.

@kingledion is this your ostrich question?

kingledion

@Green Nah this is the new doing-things-without-computers question I asked

James

@Green Fair point but...meh, give me a violent animated series and I will be entertained.

dot_Sp0T

@James watch Blame!

James

19:22

@dot_Sp0T What is it?

dot_Sp0T

@James good. And on Netflix. It's just some 90min iirc, so no biggie

AndyD273

@James An anime on netflix. It's pretty interesting.

Green

@kingledion Ah, I was working on a response to that one.

James

I've been considering buying the whole of Trigun...haven't watched it in years but man is it good.

kingledion

@Green Well its not closed yet

And I'm confident I can get it re-opened if it does get closed. People just seem like they are being mean-spirited about it

Green

19:25

@James it took me two tries to get through Trigun. I stopped on the first attempt because everyone was always angry all the time and I couldn't tolerate that well at the time.

Bellerophon

@kingledion What question? I need to add my close vote.

James

Vash is awesome. But frankly Wolfwood was my favorite character.

dot_Sp0T

Bebop is also a jewel, if anyone really has not seen that one yet

Green

@James it's windy like hell today in true, Dante's Ninth Circle of hell style.

dot_Sp0T

And then there's Space Pirate Captain Harlock

Green

19:26

@dot_Sp0T love that show too.

James

Bebop is good. The episode where they are tripping on mushrooms is hilarious.

I watched Harlock on netflix. It was pretty entertaining.

dot_Sp0T

Something that I really remember having enjoyed is Texhnolyze if anyone is up for it

AndyD273

@James Basically people create automated cities that can build and repair themselves, and then lose control to the point that the cities automated defenses see people as enemy. Then the city builders just start building. Fast forward several centuries and it covers the whole planet out past the orbit of the moon or something like that. Thousands of levels. And one guy is trying to find a way to take back control.

James

@Green I saw a video of a firetruck driving through some flooded boston streets

kingledion

@Bellerophon worldbuilding.stackexchange.com/questions/101519/…

James

19:28

@AndyD273 That sounds...ambitious.

kingledion

@Green @James I saw a street in Revere frozen solid: jalopnik.com/the-cars-are-frozen-1821804568

dot_Sp0T

@AndyD273 well, yes and no. The whole thing is a tad more convoluted and time is really not that much of a concept anymore (at least in the original Manga, which is great)

kingledion

You still alive @Green? Are you using the last of your flickering cell phone power to talk to us while you slowly freeze to death next to a fire made from all your furniture?

7

Green

@kingledion I ain't dead yet!!

kingledion

Who else around here is from Boston?

Its cold enough in DC, but we didn't get much snow or ice....yet

dot_Sp0T

19:30

ok something happening in the US that does not transpire to the more civilized Europe that easily - anyone care to brief me?

AndyD273

@dot_Sp0T I've gotten through several volumes of the manga. The sense of scale is really cool. I hope they didn't pay the writer by the word. If so he probably made $1.50 or so...

kingledion

The East Coast of the US is very very cold

And snowy, and icy

James

20

Q: Would ritual cannibalism of the dead lead to issues with disease?

Assume you have a culture that eats some or all of their dead at the funeral as a ritual, instead of burying the dead as we do. Assume somewhere between medieval and renaissance level of technology/science. What is the risk of disease being spread through such a custom? Would the risk of disea...

reality-check culture diseases medicine

Green

@kingledion my answer to the TV question was that you wouldn't get very far past CRT because to design new TVs would require computers to finish in an realistic time frame.

Anyone interested in meeting up in real life?

dot_Sp0T

@AndyD273 you gotta finish it. took me only half a day :) If you like it then Sidonia no Kishin might be something for you too. There's even a recent anime adaption on Netflix, alas I dropped it after some 10min because I couldn't stand the dubs...

Green

19:32

Just a "I'm not opposed to the idea" is enough.

Secespitus

@dot_Sp0T I watched that one. Interesting style

Bellerophon

I have a CRT. Much better than a flat-screen TV for viewing at an angle.

AndyD273

@dot_Sp0T I watched the first season of Sidonia... it was ok, but I didn't feel like watching the second season.

Mithrandir24601

@Green I assume that you're planning on coming to the UK then?

Secespitus

@Mithrandir24601 Nah, Germany

dot_Sp0T

19:34

@Secespitus I read most of the Manga before my Manga hiatus took hold..

Mithrandir24601

@Secespitus I'd quite happily take a holiday to Germany, although I've already been to Vancouver, Crete and China over the course of the past 12 months, so I'm not sure if I've really worked up the hours to casually go Deutschland for a while :P

Green

@Mithrandir24601 I might. I have this idea of meeting people in the US when I travel. I also have plans for international travel, so yeah, I would be coming to the UK at some point.

@Secespitus definitely planning on Germany.

Mithrandir24601

@Green Oooh, if you're ever in Bristol, make sure to ping me

dot_Sp0T

What about a meetup in Switzerland? It's multicultural and there's plenty English Expats over here, so no language issues like in Germany ;)

Mithrandir24601

(I was tempted to leave that as an iff - clearly I can't type tonight)

Secespitus

19:38

I may visit the US east coast this year

Mithrandir24601

I'll probably be in Indianapolis sometime within the next couple of years

Green

@Mithrandir24601 will do!

@Secespitus let me know if/when you do.

Secespitus

@Green I'll be sure to do that

sphennings

@kingledion I'm from Boston.

Green

@sphennings let's get a drink sometime.

sphennings

19:41

@Green I'd be down for that.

Green

@sphennings done.

kingledion

@sphennings Oh yeah, I knew that

Are you still alive too?

Ok who wants to review my question for re-opening

3

Q: How high-def can my TV be without computers?

Introduction See background information here. In the Harmonious Republic of Mars, the finest forms may be found of any and all luxuries available in the Solar system. This includes moving pictures. Only in the Harmonious Republic does mankind watch, rather than read, the news. And in color! Wi...

technology near-future mars

Its better now, I promise

dot_Sp0T

@kingledion do you promise to care for it in good, as in bad times?

Separatrix

In sickness and in health?

kingledion

@dot_Sp0T I'm on my 9th edit. This question has gotten a lot more love than my wife in the past 6 hours

2

dot_Sp0T

19:45

@kingledion also does it still say turning complete instead of turing complete?

sphennings

@kingledion I'm not dead yet.

kingledion

That part is gone

dot_Sp0T

@kingledion you got my vote. Finally someone that gets things done

kingledion

Also, @James would you mind nuking the comments on that question I just linked. I'm sure its about to accrue like 30 more comments

Separatrix

You're addressed my complaints

sphennings

19:47

Are you sure you want to leave in " Anything that was ever historically considered to be a computer (other than a person) is a computer."

kingledion

I'm not sure, but I also think that it is a good expression of my intent

Unless you can find a loophole

Wait, I've got it

sphennings

@kingledion It looks good to me. There's still a bunch of pedantry that could go on about what is and isn't memory, vs just tracking internal state. But that's more refinement not worth closing the question.

kingledion

@sphennings There I made it say Anything that was ever historically considered to be an electronic computer is a computer."

Green

@kingledion, I'd leave that question closed and ask another one. The no-memory stipulation invalidates a lot of answers.

dot_Sp0T

@kingledion ouch you just opened the gates of hell for that thing

kingledion

19:50

@sphennings Back to your impending death by cold, do you live in the city or out in the burbs

@dot_Sp0T Its got memory, it is still out

Separatrix

I'd stick to programmable rather than electronic

kingledion

@Green I think it only invalidates Molots, which I consider to be an answer in bad faith anyways

sphennings

@kingledion I'm a two hour walk from downtown Boston.

kingledion

...(working that out on Google maps)

sphennings

Maybe an hour and a half in good weather.

kingledion

19:54

I grew up in Wakefield, MA, which according to Google is a 3.5 hour walk from downtown. So you must live somewhat closer in.

Oh wait, it says right in your profile, Allston

Thats cool, I drove into the city to see a pre-opening night Matrix movie and got lost in Allston....this one time

sphennings

Oh that's old. I'm in Everett at the moment.

James

@kingledion Done

kingledion

Oh cool, my dad's living in Malden these days.

@James Thank you

James

np

sphennings

Malden's pretty nice.

James

19:58

My only experience with Boston is from Fallout 4. Gotta say, it was kinda a crap hole. I don't want to live there.

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