The Factory Floor

Shalvenay

00:08

hey there @JourneymanGeek

JDługosz

00:40

I’ve been at the theater preparing/rehearsing for the last 5 hours. Less than 1 hour ’till show time.

@FutureHistorian how is the graphene made into cloth?

Shalvenay

02:15

hey again @Gryphon

Shalvenay

06:12

hey there @FerretCivilization

Ferret Civilization

Hi there

Shalvenay

building trades gripe: it seems that there are some specialties where the contractors involved simply don't touch residential work, much of the time, which is something I don't understand. Why would that be?

Ferret Civilization

Laws could be a big thing.

Shalvenay

as in building code differences between residential (esp. single-family) and commercial/industrial/institutional? (my understanding of US building codes is that the former are both a bit more prescriptive and somewhat more permissive than the latter, if that makes any sense)

or something else entirely? (contract/liablity sorts of things maybe?)

Ferret Civilization

06:29

Kind of yes, non-residential buildings also have more things that need to be considered than simple resident houses.

Shalvenay

@FerretCivilization yeah, more varied usage, really

(I ask because an online-pen-pal-of-mine-of-sorts just got a house, and is trying to find a fire suppression contractor to work with him on his crazy-mad-scientist plans for the house. he plans to turn the garage into a lab complete with clean-agent protection, and have the rest of the house sprinklered.)

Ferret Civilization

Usually why contractors will stay separate, also education comes into play since the types of building are different. And that example, ouch, if they are American tell them to have fun with the HOA and city council on top of trying to find someone to rig that up.

Shalvenay

I'm not sure if he's in an incorporated area or not, but that'd be...bizarre...for either a city council or an HOA to complain about something being built to well above and beyond the applicable Codes IMO

Ferret Civilization

I mean more along the lines of asking what they are doing that requires clean agent protect and most likely suppression and dealing with that kind of stuff. Finding someone to set it up just depends on how much money one has around.

Shalvenay

06:49

@FerretCivilization the lab is mostly a fairly hardcore electronics lab

Ferret Civilization

Well I've heard some places get picky over less. Though that is a whole other problem than the one you raised.

Shalvenay

then again, as more places get their heads screwed on straight and adopt the model Code's requirements for sprinklers in new residential construction, I expect the fire suppression folks to get more keen on residential markets

Ferret Civilization

07:05

Probably, surprised to hear that is one kind of service hard to find contractor wise.

Shalvenay

yeah, it annoys me as well.

JDługosz

I'm back from my concert.

Ferret Civilization

Do they already have the permits and stuff for adding to the structure?

Shalvenay

@FerretCivilization the garage is pre-existing

as far as the systems permits, they'll be pulling those I'm sure

Ferret Civilization

For the sprinklers yeah, figured the garage was pre-existing when you said they wanted to turn its use into something else.

Separatrix

08:50

@Shalvenay In the UK there are separate certifications for commercial and residential for some jobs

There's also a question of the scale of operations the company is set up for

Future Historian

12:03

Hmmmmmmmmmm. Gentlemen?

I thought of an idea.

I want to see if I can come up with a rap on the Visitor series.

:P

Get it?

drums play in the background

Epic Rap Battles of Fiction!

Future Historian

12:21

@FerretCivilization? I am asking all over the Discord servers I have access to, and I am thinking: how do I deconstruct a trope like the Eternal Churchill trope?

And.......patience running dry soon.

I will try to keep up the patience, but it is running dry.

quasi

13:07

hi all, I came around so you could help me brain storm on the name of the main faction of a post-scarcity universe I am creating based on secular humanism.

In "How could a humanist civilization favor the selfless?" (https://worldbuilding.stackexchange.com/questions/86638/how-could-a-humanist-civilization-favor-the-selfless) I got quiet a lot of interesting propositions and discussions on how a we could create a society based on secular humanism. Now I am in the building of the world and I would need some help with the name of the main faction of that universe.

Future Historian

Oh.

Well, this would be an interesting one.

quasi

I hope so. I feel kind of stuck and it is very important to coin it well

Future Historian

:P

quasi

how does it works here? Will I have to re-ask now and then the question when there's new people around? Or do people answer on old questions?

first timer in the chat room ^_^

Future Historian

Well, are they human or extraterrestrial?

This civilisation?

Because humanist civilisation (if it is human)............well, they would NOT. That is the thing. It depends on the context of the setting. That would be an ALTRUISTIC civilisation, which will likely be the first kind of civilisation to get slaughtered in a hostile universe like ours. A humanist civilisation could just be a society that eschews genetic engineering, cybernetics, brain-uploading and the like to an extent.

quasi

13:25

It's only human. No zombies and no aliens in that universe. A bit of backstory, humanity just came out of a new global war and was on the brink of extinction. A kind of WWIII but between corporations, governments and popular movements. Very dark cyberpunkish. Popular movements with the help of a new breed civic engaged corporations got the upper hand. There was a consensus: that all would have to aim for universal well-being and sustainability if they wanted humanity to survive.

Recent studies show that for humanity "survival of the fittest" is wrong statement. It's "survival of the most co-operative" positive.news/2014/economics/14547/compassionate-survive

Future Historian

Well, what about AI constructs, gene-edited humans, cybernetic organisms, whole brain emulations, etc.?

And besides...........if it is a hard science fiction setting (as in: mostly real science at minimum), humanity IS the extraterrestrials.

As in: the Homo Sapiens Sapiens species creates entire subspecies or even new species of the Homo genus as they expand further into the interstellar void.

Whether that is a result of thousands of years of evolution, genetic engineering, cybernetics or brain uploading is another matter.

:P

quasi

yes, but the setting is not going that far. It's around year 2130 and we're all over the Solar System, but can't get beyond

to come back to the back story

AngelPray

So no AI or cyborgs?

quasi

there was this consensus, although they agreed on the goal, they couldn't agree on the way to get there. On Earth a corporatocracy installed and imposes it's vision of universal well-being based on secular humanism, in the rest of the Solar System, all those who do not agree on the vision went and created their on communities, based on different civic values

AngelPray

For a start a society based on equality and tolerance is unlikely to name itself something egotistical/solar-centric.

2

Future Historian

13:34

@quasi. The thing is...is there AI or cybernetic organisms involved?

Because I am thinking..........the Outer Solar System should be home to an AI civilisation.

Or at least some of the gas giant moons or even the Kuiper Belt.

The meatbags can stay in the Inner Solar System for all I care.

2

:P

quasi

there are AI, and cyborgs, cybernetics too, although people have mixed feeling about them. Visible cybernetics are not very commun

Future Historian

So, what do you think?

AngelPray

Okay so we have AI, that changes things drastically.

Future Historian

@quasi. Hence the proposal for a civilisation or nation of the AI, by the AI and for the AI.

AngelPray

What level of AI? Post-singularity? General AI?

Future Historian

13:36

Get it?

drums play in the background

And also one for cybernetic organisms.

And trust me.............Earth will NOT like this idea (which could be a source of tension).

>:)

AngelPray

How about we look at the progression.

What states existed prior to this altruistic society.

It didn't just pop out of nowhere?

Was there a United Earth before it?

Or United States of Europe?

Or United commonwealth?

And what exactly is the political system?

Benign Oligarchy?

Anarchist?

Technocratic Democracy?

Future Historian

Hmmmmmmmm.

What happened to the UN post-War anyway?

quasi

ok, no AIs and no cybernetic organisms for this brain storming. There are but they have no power.

AngelPray

Alright then, so only weak AI.

That's fine.

Future Historian

@quasi? What I mean is...........do they have their own independent state out there somewhere?

In the Solar System?

Because power where? On Earth or just overall?

is confused

AngelPray

13:41

I think they mean that AI haven't become superintelligent.

Future Historian

Well, AGI is still a thing, though. Correct?

AngelPray

They haven't become General AI.

Bellerophon

@quasi Probably best to re-ask on a weekday as very few people are around on a weekend.

Future Historian

Oh, bloody hell.

quasi

Nope, most of AI are roaming the net. After this WWIII their power has been diminished a lot because huge corporation were controled by some

Future Historian

13:41

>:(

So much for having an AI nation on Titan or something.

AngelPray

Alright then so no General AI.

Don't worry future, it's only the 22nd century.

Plenty of time for the AI to take over later.

Future Historian

Titan's low temperature means silicon computers can work more easily, not to mention it is the perfect place to avoid the meatbags.

quasi

yes, maybe later there can be an AI insuraction

Future Historian

@AngelPray. I am not wanting AI to take over.

@AngelPray. I just mean the AI wanting to GET AWAY from the pesky meatbags.

2

AngelPray

Haha.

quasi

13:43

lol

AngelPray

Well anyways.

Future Historian

And Titan, unless the humans got there beforehand, is perfect for that.

AngelPray

So quasi, what is the political structure of this civilisation?

Future Historian

In fact, Issac Arthur had a video on that on his YouTube channel on how to colonise Titan.

AngelPray

Technocratic? Benign dictatorship?

Anarchist?

Future Historian

13:44

If it is like the Culture........please no.

AngelPray

Hybrid?

Future Historian

The Culture, although interesting, is politically unrealistic.

Anarchist societies are usually going to kill themselves off before getting anywhere.

AngelPray

Well the culture is pretty much a anarchist/the AI are actually in control so...

Future Historian

@AngelPray. Still. Try that with the pesky humans and see how long they last before dying horribly.

AngelPray

I mean humans are more like pets than anything in the culture.

Which isn't a bad thing.

They're treated nicely by their AI owners.

Future Historian

13:45

True, at least in the series' case.

quasi

Political structure: Earth, Luna, Mars and all space stations in their field of influence have a participative democracy with a central state keeping an eye on everything. As a good mother to make giving them just enough freedom so they can enjoy life to the fullest without harming themselves

Future Historian

Wait. Why not try to revolt against their AI overlords?

AngelPray

Okay so central state, how does that work?

Future Historian

^

AngelPray

Oligarchical? Elected? Dynastic?

Technocratic?

Future Historian

13:46

Especially when light lag kicks in.

It is NOT easy to rule the Solar System with light lag being an arsehole and travel time taking anywhere from months to years at interplanetary distances.

AngelPray

Well if they're only in the solar system light lag isn't terribly impactful.

Future Historian

Thankfully, the Moon is in real time.

Mars on the other hand........

3 minutes to get an email from some Martian colonist on the InterPlaNet.

:P

AngelPray

Quasi you have to give us answers otherwise...

quasi

Out of that we have a huge amount of semi-autonomous space settlements who are based on different social values and political systems. Most being libertarian, but you can also find extreme right, communists, liberals, cons, etc

Future Historian

O_O

AngelPray

13:47

Okay... sure.. But what about the central state? Again Oligarchical? Elected? Dynastic?
Technocratic?, something else?

Future Historian

Libertarians?! Well, RIP those colonists, because we all know how well libertarianism is going to end if it is EVER implemented.

Correct?

:P

AngelPray

Libertarisnism is flatly immoral.

Future Historian

Sorry.

Just pointing it out.

AngelPray

Well it could possibly survive, but I find it hard to think it wouldn't become a plutocracy very, very quickly.

quasi

it's a participative democracy. Elected, with some decisions made by all through the net (neural connections)

Future Historian

13:48

And worse: (melodramatic voice) IN SPACE!!!!! (normal voice) It will get you killed.

AngelPray

And you can elect anybody?

Or is it technocratic?

Future Historian

Well, this reminds me a bit of the Planetverse, when you think about it, only not as dark and NOT in an alternate future.

And less realistic than the Planetverse.

:P

quasi

it's more of popularocracy (don't know if that word exists) but on Earth and other it's kind the the cult of popularity

Future Historian

Then you just invented a term.

AngelPray

That's not really going to work...

Future Historian

13:50

Congratulations!

:D

AngelPray

I mean it could be a thing, but popular people aren't typically the people who are the best at making decisions.

Depends on your societies culture.

Future Historian

Agreed.

In other words: it means DEATH.

In the long-term, at least.

AngelPray

^ Societal decay, certainly.

Unlikely to maintain a unified society for very long.

quasi

well, all depends on how things work, but yes, it's a bit the start of the end.

AngelPray

Hmm alright, well that's sad then...

So celebraties are elected to power.

Expect your society to change its name very frequently in that case.

quasi

13:53

Think of it as the fastest way to get popular is to do community works

AngelPray

Sure that works, but again, the people who do community works aren't typically the best to lead.

Atleast not at the top.

Middle management though, yeah great.

quasi

well, today we have same kind of situation but with wealth in stead of popularity

Future Historian

In an unrelated note: how do you best replicate the sound of the EAS going off?

AngelPray

Well... Almost.

Its more like today the method to become popular is to be wealthy.

And vice-versa.

Future Historian

We interrupt our programming. This is a national emergency. Important details will follow............

AngelPray

13:55

Replicate it?

Future Historian

EAS sound plays in the background

AngelPray

Just download it on line.

Future Historian

How to describe that sound in words.

AngelPray

*online

Future Historian

:P

AngelPray

13:55

Look its on youtube. youtube.com/watch?v=DHIhsTWxsKE

Just download that.

Future Historian

I know.

But how do I translate that into words?

Especially when the character is trying to describe that noise?

AngelPray

Well... It's a siren.

Bellerophon

A weird beeping, buzzing sound.

AngelPray

And it screeches..

quasi

kind of a broken modem sound

AngelPray

13:58

So I'd decribe it as a screeching sirin.

Or raspy.

quasi

or broken fax sound, but without the bips

AngelPray

What's a fax?

/joke

2

quasi

google.com/…

you got me ^_^

AngelPray

Well I think you can expect the name of your society to change all the time.

Branding is everything.

Everytime someone is new in power they'll want to change everything.

Which I think adds a lot of flavor.

Future Historian

The following message has been at the request of the United States Government. Multiple unidentified objects have been spotted entering our planet's atmosphere. The US federal government suspects that the United States is currently undergoing kinetic orbital bombardment. Reports of significant damage have been received from the following cities: Houston, Dallas, Austin, and Phoenix and prior orbital trajectories expect it to be heading for the West Coast of the United States....

quasi

14:01

ok, right. I didn't explained well. I wanted explain fast and did it wrong

it's a league. I mean, like the EU. There are several sovereign entities that grouped for a common share interest. Kind of a sort of commonwealth but I do not like the word commonwealth coz we think on the British one and there is wealth in it

Future Historian

All citizens are expected to carry non-perishable food, potable water, a ham radio, and a first aid kit, and begin to evacuate from urban areas. The Emergency Alert System will continue to provide updates as this situation develops.

EAS sounds play in the background again

quasi

are we under attack?

can I take my laptop with me?

AngelPray

What's a radio?

quasi

please?

a ham radio (is it eatable?)

maybe I have to learn to ask my questions in a shorter and better way so that we can spend more time on the answer and less on understanding ^_^

Future Historian

I meant a portable ham radio.

You know: the kind you would have to carry back in the old days?

Amateur radio

Amateur radio (also called ham radio) describes the use of radio frequency spectrum for purposes of non-commercial exchange of messages, wireless experimentation, self-training, private recreation, radiosport, contesting, and emergency communication. The term "amateur" is used to specify "a duly authorised person interested in radioelectric practice with a purely personal aim and without pecuniary interest;" (either direct monetary or other similar reward) and to differentiate it from commercial broadcasting, public safety (such as police and fire), or professional two-way radio services (such...

This.

quasi

14:07

haha, the grand-grandfather of the mobile phone ^_^

Future Historian

:P

Besides, it is just a fictional EAS transmission.

Not a real one.

quasi

so I can to unpack then ^_^

Future Historian

Actually, no.

quasi

O_O

ai

Future Historian

I am not sure of what to come up with the next fictional EAS update.

quasi

14:11

please let me survive that one. That's all I ask

Future Historian

Well, fine.

Why, where in the States do you live?

Please tell me you do not live on the American West Coast, do you?

quasi

nope. I actually do not live in the States, but there are always those collateral damages

Bellerophon

I reckon I'll be fine.

Future Historian

Well, where do you live, then?

If it is in a population centre of 1,000,000 or more individuals.........well, good luck.

quasi

.... I need to go the the country side

no country side here it's all build

nooooo

damn civilisation...

Future Historian

14:16

Well, if you somehow survive the kinetic bombardment..........then good luck surviving the drones and Visitor forces descending on the planet.

quasi

so there is no hope any more? Then to who are you going to do your next broadcast? maybe you should let some people live it you want to have public

anyway thank you guys for al the questions (got me a bit more confused and gave me new ideas) I will come back during rush hours ^_^

Future Historian

14:34

:P

@Bellerophon? When a kinetic rod impacts at Mach 25, the rod itself being 20 metres long, two metres in diameter and composed of tungsten, how far can the shockwave be felt from?

As in: how far does it go before it becomes hard to notice there even is a shockwave?

Shalvenay

15:03

@Separatrix as in some jobs are too small for them?

Future Historian

@Shalvenay? Anything on the blast wave of a kinetic rod like the one I described on impact?

How far can someone feel that and the prior sonic boom?

Shalvenay

@FutureHistorian nope

Future Historian

:(

Still, the sonic boom for this one is the sin(0.04), which is given by sin(a)=1/object velocity relative to the speed of sound.

In this case, 1/Mach 25 gave me an angle for the sonic boom to be around........the sine of 0.04.

Basically ~0.04 radians.

So, how far can someone hear that sonic boom, just before the rod impacts its target (in this case, Downtown San Diego) with Sgt. Sikes being along the I-5 N leaving from the Clairemont/Ba Ho area of San Diego by the time the rod impacts the ground?

Bellerophon

@FutureHistorian Depends on ambient noise.

Future Historian

15:28

Well, in this case, the Sikes is in the middle of a traffic jam along the I-5 N, and has left his home at 6:55 AM Pacific Standard Time. The bombardment begins at 7:20 AM Pacific Standard Time.

And he gets stuck there minutes prior.

Separatrix

@Shalvenay Or too big. A company with a lot of heavy excavation and lifting gear isn't going to want to build you a new conservatory, but equally a man with a van can't build a new hospital.

Shalvenay

@Separatrix ah

Future Historian

Hmmmmmmmmmm.

@Shalvenay? Which is easier: interstellar conquest or interstellar genocide?

Bellerophon

Genocide is always easier.

^ My motto.

Shalvenay

15:46

deffo genocide

Bellerophon

16:04

Weird., my light switch is the wrong way up. Never noticed that before.

Bellerophon

16:28

I now have an electrocuted hand.

Future Historian

17:08

So, about that ambient noise, does the traffic jam help?

Shalvenay

@Bellerophon did you forget to turn the breaker off? :P

hey there @Secespitus

Future Historian

17:50

@Bellerophon? Do you think that interstellar species would be friendly or not?

Because.......usually, in nature, the friendly species are the first to die.

Correct?

Future Historian

18:23

@Shalvenay? Any sonic boom simulators that can allow velocities into the km/s range?

Because I am going to try to do something stupid.

3

It is called "downloading simulators from NASA's website".

:P

Shalvenay

18:56

hey there @Gryphon

Gryphon

hey @Shalvenay

Future Historian

@Shalvenay? Anything yet on results from a sonic boom of an object approaching at Mach 25?

Shalvenay

@FutureHistorian I would have no idea

@Gryphon how're things going?

Future Historian

Well, I am trying these programs out: grc.nasa.gov/www/k-12/UndergradProgs/index.htm.

Gryphon

@Shalvenay Not too bad. Trying to get some free time to work on my next blog post. It's around halfway done.

Future Historian

18:58

Since Chrome is being an arsehole to me, I need someone else to try and figure them out until I can make those programs work on my end.

Gryphon

@FutureHistorian And thus the dive into the endless tunnel of doom that is NASA simulators begins...

Future Historian

snickers

Future Historian

19:23

And.........fail.

Nothing towards Mach 25.

>:(

Future Historian

19:40

@FerretCivilization? Any ideas on how to calculate the amount of dB received from the impact of a kinetic rod?

And how far the shock wave goes upon impact?

Ferret Civilization

19:52

About 13.5 kilometers is where the over pressure wave goes below 0.1 psi. Probably would not be heard much further away since the rod is not explosive. Since their would be multiple of this though hitting the ground people would probably feel the rumble in the ground up to 100's of kilometers or less.

Bellerophon

@FutureHistorian Station people at 1 metre intervals getting steadily further from the drop site. Drop a kinetic rod then ask the people if try heard it. Should get an answer to the nearest metre or so.

Also, no not correct above a base threshold.

Future Historian

So, Sgt. Sikes is 33 km from the first rod that hits San Diego in this scene.

And.......surprise! At least his eardrums are not popped.........yet.

@FerretCivilization? Where is the simulator Andy had earlier?

Ferret Civilization

meyerweb.com/eric/tools/gmap/…

Future Historian

20:07

@FerretCivilization? Remind me again how many 11 kt rods you said are needed to achieve 50% of the city's destruction?

And one more thing: how far away does the sonic boom before impact go?

Ferret Civilization

47 to cover all of it with at least 0.1 psi.

Future Historian

As in: is the sonic boom enough to pop people's eardrums clean off?

Ferret Civilization

No the sonic boom is going the wrong direction, if it was strong enough to pop the eardrum they probably died of the over pressure wave.

Future Historian

Oh.

Right.

The sonic boom is going UP, not left or right.

Well, relative to Earth's surface anyway.

Now, visually, the rod would be burning up as it entered our atmosphere, correct?

Or how does it look visually?

To our eyeballs?

@FerretCivilization? Are these coordinates good:

32.72526,-117.16001

32.71601,-117.13323

32.68568,-117.12997

32.74648,-117.12087

32.73551,-117.2285

32.7589,-117.1976

32.79671,-117.23537

32.8172,-117.18524

32.81778,-117.22816

32.69709,-117.21237

32.769,-117.12242

32.81605,-117.16568

32.85759,-117.20275

32.72685,-117.0819

32.59215,-117.03556

Sorry about the wall of text.

Ferret Civilization

Well it would probably behave like space craft on reentry, the air in front of it gets compressed so much that it becomes extremely hot. The face down part of the rod would be bright, the rest of it would probably be covered by the glow of the sheath.

Future Historian

20:19

These are coordinates for the rods on impact on the city.

And SPOILER WARNING: Two of them are Naval Air Station and Naval Bases respectively.

And the intended target for the rod that hit the naval base is supposed to be mainly in the rest of the city.

@FerretCivilization? 0.7 kPa is how much damage?

Light damage?

Or no damage at all, except the observer feels the seismic waves?

And the shock wave?

Ferret Civilization

Those coordinates, really hate downtown don't you, ha. https://www.sandiego.gov/sites/default/files/legacy//planning/programs/mapsua/pdf/cplancd2.pdf
And that little bit of over pressure would do no damage, just be felt a little.

Future Historian

Well, not really.

I just wanted to inflict maximum shock value + bonus points with civilian casualties.

:P

Which is probably in the thousands for San Diego, possibly even most of its population.

Ferret Civilization

Oh and ah, here it is 170.75dB = 1 pound per square inch.

Future Historian

In metric, please?

That is enough to pop people's eardrums clean off!

@FerretCivilization? Any near-future situations that could guarantee US ground intervention in the late 2010s - early 2020s?

Ferret Civilization

Surprisingly not no. Damage them from exposure yes but this happens in an near instant as the wave goes by.

Future Historian

20:33

Not factoring First Contact?

Because I just realised: when was the last time the US Marine Corps was deployed into a war?

Ferret Civilization

195dB Human eardrums rupture

Future Historian

After all: the Jihadist War of today is kind of........NOT directly involving US Marines.

I think.............

Or.........US Marines are involved.

Just not the 1st Marine Regiment that Sikes is assigned to.

Ferret Civilization

The continuation of the Middle East troubles has been enough to have units from all branches stationed there.
An actual conventional war involving the US or allies would see more deployment.

Future Historian

Well, what about a US military intervention in Venezuela anyway?

Is that plausible or........?

@FerretCivilization? Could the Americans intervene in Venezuela or.....?

Because.......on the one hand, Monroe Doctrine, but on the other hand, Venezuela is getting a bit......er..........too friendly with China.

Ferret Civilization

Unless they ask for it or they start to effect the region. Probably not.

Future Historian

20:44

Well, what other international nightmares can the Americans intervene in?

At least ignoring First Contact, which would significantly affect things?

Ferret Civilization

Also, the USSR got into Cuba, the Monroe doctrine does not mean what it used to from a bygone age.

Future Historian

True.

So, how do we justify an intervention in Venezuela for the States?

Venezuelan Civil War and possible spillover, or.........?

Ferret Civilization

Probably not even that, it would be hard for the US to get involved in yet another kind of those situations.

Future Historian

Well, in that case. Any other hypothetical scenarios for the US to intervene pre-First Contact?

At least before First Contact went public?

After all: you said the Middle East would be perfect.

But........where in the Middle East?

Arabian Civil War? Iran War as a result of Iran being dumb enough to try and blockade the Strait of Hormuz? What?

Ferret Civilization

An actual conventional war breaking out. Which that alone would be hard enough to explain happening.
Uh, right where it has been with unconventional war.

Future Historian

20:50

@FerretCivilization? A conventional war against Iran (followed by long insurgency and repeat of Iraq)? Or US intervention in an Arabian Civil War?

Or......say for example: Second Lebanese Civil War?

Ferret Civilization

Not really, but if you want to say it happens just do it.

Future Historian

Well, I am just asking.

As in: how plausible are either of those situations at this point?

And no, I am not going to get Russia to pull a Ukraine on Estonia.

That would just mean WWIII and making it easier for the Visitors to conquer Earth.

Ferret Civilization

Beyond the amount of involvement the US already has in the Middle East, highly implausible.

Future Historian

Are you sure about that?

Because I am not sure that America would simply throw away its interests for the sake of maintaining the public happy........that easily.

Especially since petroleum = MONEY for the Americans.

And besides.....Saudi Arabia imploding on itself practically means the West is going to take a global energy crisis into consideration.

So, would securing that petroleum not be enough to guarantee the US' intervention, if not to help one of its oldest allies?

Oh wait.

Meh. I have a better idea.

Ferret Civilization

We already have thousands of men in the Middle East with millions to billions of equipment and supplies. That to me is not throwing away any interests.

Future Historian

20:57

@FerretCivilization. Exactly, but what if Iran decided to be an arsehole and cut off the flow of petroleum through the Strait of Hormuz?

;)

Basically Iraq War.......only switch the "q" with an "n" and you get the Iran War.

:P

So, basically America is just destabilising ANOTHER nation that it probably should have left alone.

Ferret Civilization

Most you get is a standoff and some sanctions. You are assuming the Theocracy of Iran no loner wants to be in power.

Future Historian

Oh.

Right.

Well, except that when I say "blockade", I mean BLOCKADE.

As in: sink any non-Iranian ships carrying petroleum across the Strait of Hormuz just to piss off Saudi Arabia.

Ferret Civilization

And why would Iran be suicidal enough to do that.

Future Historian

Oh.

Right.

I forgot that Iran is not that stupid.

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