The Factory Floor

Shalvenay

03:12

hey there @BESW, what brings you over this way?

BESW

@Shalvenay I've been a room owner here for two years.

Shalvenay

@BESW oh, xD

BESW

Left for a while because there was no activity that needed an owner's eye and nothing very interesting for me as a user, but decided to wander back in a few weeks ago.

Pavel Janicek

12:03

Hi all

bilbo_pingouin

Hi Pavel

Pavel Janicek

Long time no chatting :) Have been busy recently :)

Anyway. Are you familiar with short story "shut up or they will hear you" ?

bilbo_pingouin

same here.

nope

Pavel Janicek

36,400,000. That is the expected number of intelligent civilizations in our galaxy, according to Drake’s famous equation. For the last 78 years, we had been broadcasting everything about us – our radio, our television, our history, our greatest discoveries – to the rest of the galaxy. We had been shouting our existence at the top of our lungs to the rest of the universe, wondering if we were alone. 36 million civilizations, yet in almost a century of listening, we hadn’t heard a thing. We were alone.

2

My question is obvious: How would we react as humanity if we were about to receive such message?

bilbo_pingouin

freak out?

Pavel Janicek

12:11

yeah. But will we stop communication?

lol, I am reading reddit about this very topic

Twist. It turns out that the message wasn't intended for us here on earth... It's intended for everyone else. The message is ABOUT US. "Be quiet, or the humans will find you."

bilbo_pingouin

well we cannot stop from one day to the next all EM activity...

and we don't know exactly how they might hear us... and it could be a joke

I pretty much doubt we would

people will be all like: "let 'em come, I'll shoot 'em in tha face!"

Pavel Janicek

true

Serban Tanasa

12:26

@PavelJanicek, we have pretty small lungs -- beyond a few light years, our puny radio signals are probably too weak to be detectable.

Pavel Janicek

are we actually trying to be discovered or are we only listening?

like, right now

bilbo_pingouin

both

SETI is listenning

Pavel Janicek

Yeah, I know that

bilbo_pingouin

and a few space devices are sent to the wild space

Pavel Janicek

But are we broadcasting something on the frequencies where we expect someone would try to communicate interstellar?

bilbo_pingouin

12:28

but to my knowledge, we are not broadcasting anything willingly... that would require a tremendous amount of power

Serban Tanasa

small lungs

Pavel Janicek

Thats maybe the answer to the question "where are they"

What if they are there but behaving the same as us

Just listening

bilbo_pingouin

One thing we tend to forget... as far as our understanding of the universe go at the moment, there's no way to run effective interstellar travels.

Pavel Janicek

right

But communication is possible

Yet we are not doing it

Ok, how much power do I need to send message to Alfa Centauri?

bilbo_pingouin

So the only way we would get in contact are: 1) they are much more advance than we are and we are wrong in our science so far OR 2) that one of our signal by chance reach their planet

Serban Tanasa

12:34

well, radio signals propagate in a sphere expanding at the speed of light

Pavel Janicek

Can I build interstellar communicating device on my backyard?

And be actually able to send out a message?

Do not worry about my neighbours. They already know I am weirdo

Serban Tanasa

If you also have a small, portable gigawatt generator

should not be a problem

Pavel Janicek

I have power socket in my wall

hmm, I am paying about 1000 CZK for megawwatt

Serban Tanasa

is that some weird non-EURO currency that can actually be depreciated without asking the Germans?

Pavel Janicek

It is non Euro currency

And I believe we have to ask Germas to upgrade it to Euro

but my government does not want to

Anyway. In some non weird currency, I am paying 37 EUR for a megawatt

which is 37 000 EUR to send a message

Serban Tanasa

12:41

you may need to splurge on some ultracapacitators

the costs are not in the electric power as much as just purchasing the equipment.

there was a startup a few years ago that charged 25c to send a message to space, i believe

it predictably went bankrupt

the 70 meter antenna might upset the neighbors

Pavel Janicek

13:05

Did I tell you that I bought a house which comes with 10 000 square metres of land with it?

So, 70 meter antenna is still feasible

say I will pay another 10 000 euro for antenna

another 10 000 Euro for the electronics

so, it is still less than 60 000 Euro

still totally worth it :D

Serban Tanasa

13:39

In many countries, the government reserves portions of the EM spectrum for military and scientific use.

This was a fun question:

7

Q: Could keyboards + mice ever really become obsolete?

Ever since the keyboard/mouse combo really took off in the early 80s there has really been no satisfying replacement since--at least for complex/precision tasks such as computer programming and graphic/industrial design. Often time computers in fiction are depicted with some kind of neural inter...

BESW

@SerbanTanasa [cough] Accessibility.

If computer interfaces are to become truly egalitarian, they're going to have to become more universally accessible in some way, and keyboard+mouse ain't it. The visually impaired clients I work with tend to prefer (by a significant margin) complex swipe interfaces and speech/text translators.

Pavel Janicek

I place my bet on speech to text recognition

DaaaahWhoosh

I don't know, I still think mouse and keyboard is one of the best options for the people who have the ability to use them

2

BESW

And then there's the matter of epistemological clashes.

DaaaahWhoosh

but by that logic you'd think everyone would learn chording keyboards

Pavel Janicek

13:48

I am laptop user. So in my family we have two laptops and only one set of keyboard and mouse

DaaaahWhoosh

don't laptops come with an integrated keyboard and touchpad?

Pavel Janicek

yes, but touchpad != mouse

BESW

As @SerbanTanasa points out, no digital interface is natural or innate. I expect universal interface standards, if they ever exist, will be a short-term event.

Pavel Janicek

also, lot of laptops nowadays come with touch enabled screens

DaaaahWhoosh

I actually kinda prefer the little button they sometimes put in the middle of the keyboard

BESW

13:50

Seems more likely that interface options will branch and diversify to be chosen depending on the context of the user.

DaaaahWhoosh

@BESW I don't know, it seems like software these days is moving towards less options rather than more, I assume hardware is doing the same

Pavel Janicek

In smartphones everyone was using a stylus until iPhone came out

I assume that we just need another popular product to replace keyboards

BESW

@DaaaahWhoosh See above: universal standards will be a short-lived trend, if they're achieved at all. It'll be an artificial imposition that doesn't last longer than a particular force's ability to bring it to bear.

DaaaahWhoosh

I don't know, I don't see people having the ability to fight for better options. Too many people mindlessly buy the new iPhone every year

BESW

It's not a sustainable paradigm.

Trying have one product or service be everything for everyone will fall apart.

DaaaahWhoosh

13:57

I do hope so, but I have my doubts

Green

@BESW I'm not sure that it will fall apart, but it will be an awful mess to use and maintain.

iTunes does all things to all Apple products. I've never heard anyone say something nice about its user experience or the software itself.

BESW

The question is looking at longer trends than a few years, and at a bigger picture than one company.

DaaaahWhoosh

I guess the problem is it's hard to market options. If you have one product and nothing else, then you show off that product. And then you force people to pay for things they won't use

BESW

And I may be coming at this from a different perspective than many here, because I'm looking at it from the point of view of merging and evolving cultures across the world stage.

DaaaahWhoosh

@BESW do you have any historical precedents in mind?

BESW

14:03

Right now the most visible electronic concepts are designed for and marketed toward a very narrow demographic. That demographic can't widen without expanding the scope of the concepts in play--both practically and socially. The iPhone isn't marketed as a device, but as a lifestyle.

@DaaaahWhoosh The technological leapfrog effect in places like the rural Philippines, or the TracFone phenomenon in the southern US, come to mind as relatively small examples of an oncoming change.

Those are specifically about people who want cell phones, but want to use them as a tool to complement their own existing ways of interacting with the world rather than using the phone as a centerpoint of their life or a way to change their life.

The iLifestyle has nothing for them, but other concepts and companies took similar technology and applied it to the paradigm of the rural Filipino and the migrant farmer.

As more demographics and areas across the world open up to technologies, they will also change it meet to their needs at least as much as the technology changes them.

You might find Ernesto Oroza's concept of "technological disobedience" interesting.

DaaaahWhoosh

huh, yeah maybe

BESW

Technology is rooted in and influenced by culture. It also influences culture, but first it must be derived from that culture.

What you and I think of as an obvious objective truth about a given technology is actually derived from the social context in which we experience it.

This digs down the level that some cultures can't even recognise the technology or science of another culture if it doesn't fit their presumed categories for those subjects.

So far most of digital interface technology has come out of a fairly homogenous cultural group, and its varieties are mostly found on extreme edges of need--like adaptations for the visually impaired or the hard of hearing.

It's inevitable and awesome that various cultures (including the disabled) are starting to think about what their paradigms can offer, rather than simply adapting the existing work of other paradigms which were never designed with them in mind.

For example: as African countries were slowly decolonised in the 19th and 20t centuries, many of their indigenous art forms had been lost or were simply no longer considered respectable. So their art took the form of their colonisers.

If the only theater you have is an English-style one, and the plays you studied in school and saw performed in your community were English, you're going to write and perform English-style plays about your decolonisation.

The English may no longer be there in person, but you're not yet post-colonial.

Over a few generations, these countries slowly began to redefine their arts--but not returning to the arts they had before the colonisation, because that was gone and done. Instead they'd start to write English-style plays--but in their own languages, and with more localised forms and themes.

And then they'd challenge and adapt the styles, and the stages, and create something which was post-colonial: not of the coloniser, but not pretending they hadn't been colonised.

AndyD273

14:25

I do think some kind of neural interface would be interesting, but first we're more likely to have an AI interface, where you'll have a conversation about what you want. Look at all the stuff Google is doing with their Home stuff, or Amazon with Alexa. Even Siri to a small extent, when it's not being totally useless.

And as the AI begins to learn more about people, it will adapt to them and their needs, instead of the people having to adapt to the interface

BESW

This is still going on. One of the first internationally-recognised films of Mali, in 1987, can be seen as "African Star Wars" in its structure. But its themes and motives and symbols are deeply Malian and though they use ancient traditions the story is an allegory of the time it was made.

I live in a peri-colonial society myself, and it's very exciting to see this process in action.

DaaaahWhoosh

@BESW it does sound pretty exciting, I guess I just don't have faith in humanity to make cultural changes

though I will admit that I'm practicing HEMA whereas maybe ten years ago I would have only been able to do sport fencing

AndyD273

@DaaaahWhoosh Culture is going to change simple because the humanity does. People migrate, new ideas are mixed in, and things change. It's slow, but that's not bad, because fast change is usually scary

BESW

@DaaaahWhoosh Admittedly part of my optimism derives from the teachings of my faith, but living in a cultural contact zone for more than a half-dozen cultures I also see it around me every day. It's not easy, or quick, or painless, but I believe it's inevitable.

For the last five years I've helped work on a magazine designed to give a space for quality experimental literature of the Pacific, which neither American nor Asian magazines would value because it doesn't fit any of their categories for what literature should be or do.

That kind of space is an example of where we can see these ideas of cultural growth and change be explicitly examined and consciously built.

I also work with a world-wide grassroots project in helping train and empower people to improve the quality of life in their own neighbourhoods. It's usually spearheaded by the groups that the rest of the area has given up on as "bad" or "worthless," and can effect real change.

So yeah. I'm optimistic about this sort of thing, though I have no illusions about it being easy or simple or quick.

DaaaahWhoosh

14:41

well, it does sound like you have plenty of experience in the subject

BESW

I think a lot of pessimism comes from looking at the top layer of government and industry and seeing people doubling down on things which demonstrably don't work anymore, if they were did.

But these sorts of changes don't come from the top down.

DaaaahWhoosh

right, but at least in terms of technology, you usually have to have a lot of money in order to get anything done

BESW

They come from the bottom up, from people who live in the thick of the reality of their situation and see the needs of others. Because you can have all the resources in the world, but you need the motive, the recognition of the problem and the drive to do something about it, or the resources won't go toward sustainable, lasting work.

Attitudes change, cultures change, and then the resources start moving in useful directions.

That's why the work I do focuses on helping neighbourhoods become spaces that value integrity and service. It's a sustainable size at a pretty small level, and as it expands it begins to cascade.

Takes a LOT of work for the initial impetus to get moving, though.

Anyway. It's almost 1am and I've monopolised the chat enough for one week. ttfn

DaaaahWhoosh

o/

BESW

14:59

[pops back on for a moment] Another, more nuclear, example of "one size fits all" innovation slowly failing in the face of a growing multitude of diverse options each tailored to a particular niche context: the d20 System and D&D under Wizards of the Coast.

In that case, it's arguable that the top-heavy nature of the d20 System's overly broad claims actually fueled the indie game boom.

DaaaahWhoosh

yeah, so I guess there are some good examples (I still like my HEMA example). Seems like the basic structure is that something goes well, gets a lot of money, then forgets what was good, turns bad, then everyone gets fed up and tries something new

the only question is, how bad does something need to get before people start being able to come up with viable alternatives

AndyD273

@DaaaahWhoosh It seems like the current model doesn't necessarily have to be bad, so long as the alternative is better enough that it's worth the cost of learning it.

DaaaahWhoosh

yeah... but at what cost?

oh, and also, the alternative has to exist

that takes money too

AndyD273

Take keyboards. There's the standard QWERTY keyboard, and there's the Dvorak keyboard. By all accounts Dvorak layout is a lot better, but I'll probably never learn it because the cost in time to learn would be so high

Journeyman Geek

@AndyD273 "standard"

I personally prefer a 'us' ISO keyboard

but those are impossible to find

and that's basically a UK keyboard with a US style number row ;)

AndyD273

15:12

I used a Mexican keyboard a few weeks ago. took me 4 minutes to figure out where the @ was...

DaaaahWhoosh

@AndyD273 I've been meaning to learn to use a chording keyboard, but last I checked I'd pretty much have to make one of my own in order to get the features I want

AndyD273

@DaaaahWhoosh Sometimes the cost to switch to an alternative is pretty low, especially if it's an evolutionary change. Sometimes it's high. And it might be low for you and high for me, depending on circumstances.

Green

@DaaaahWhoosh How long do those take to learn?

dot_Sp0T

HELLO

Journeyman Geek

@AndyD273 when I was anywhere with a different keyboard I just switched to US and touchtyped

@dot_Sp0T EHLO

DaaaahWhoosh

15:17

@Green I'd say probably between 50-100 hours. It probably depends on how you design it

I had an idea for about 2-3 keys per finger, which should cover most of the keyboard. I was working on designing how the chords worked when I decided it was too much work and gave up

AndyD273

I'm half tempted to try making one, but I have a few other projects I'd rather do first, when I eventually get the time

Nex Terren

@AndyD273 "However, there's little research into the claims that these layouts are faster or more ergonomic. In the case of Dvorak, the claim that's it's better than QWERTY is traced back to Dvorak himself."

DaaaahWhoosh

maybe some day I'll look into making custom drivers for numpads, until then I've decided chording keyboards are a lost cause

AndyD273

@NexTerren On the one hand, I've never tried it, so maybe it's a false statement. On the other hand, I have never heard anyone say QWERTY is better.

But on the gripping hand I don't often have keyboard discussions.

Journeyman Geek

;p

Nex Terren

15:24

@AndyD273 Also there's an XKCD for this: (note mouseover text): xkcd.com/561

DaaaahWhoosh

any keyboard with 'caps lock' next to 'a' is a bad keyboard

AndyD273

@NexTerren I'm kinda looking forward to the e-ink keyboards to become more common, then you can have your keyboard change to what you want for the task you're doing

Green

17:24

@NexTerren The mention of Emacs vs. Vi is a nice touch.

James

18:12

@DaaaahWhoosh Hey jump over to Universe Factory chat and check out the link Bilbo posted (its up a little ways). Its a link to the blog post for the first episode, wanted to make sure you had a chance to review it before we post.

DaaaahWhoosh

@James I have now had that chance

James

18:29

@DaaaahWhoosh Gracias

James

21:07

Random question of the day: Has anyone ever used RPG Maker MV?

Nex Terren

@James I used a earlier cousin of it back... 10 years ago. I forget the name, but it had roughly the same capabilities. Completely different group/person made it, though.

The software ends up allowing you to make extremely generic top-down RPGs that already flood Steam. You have to both knock the art and story out of the park to stand out at all. I'm not a huge fan of the concept.

James

Its seems like it could be fun to do, I just don't know how much programming/scripting is required

Nex Terren

@James I think you're shoehorned into a preset battle system, so I'd imagine there won't be meaningful coding even if you wanted to.

dot_Sp0T

@NexTerren íirc it uses ruby for scripting and you're pretty free to change whatever you like to

James

@NexTerren Combat isn't such a biggie I was more thinking about story development and conversation systems, events (like Link finding the master sword in ALttP)(branching conversation) more the RP stuff.

Nex Terren

21:16

@James I'm quite suspicious that those things are pretty locked down. But I don't know first hand about RPG Maker MV.

@James It appears that @dot_Sp0T is fairly correct, except JavaScript. rpgmakerweb.com/products/programs/rpg-maker-mv

James

Well dang...odds are I am not going to bother to learn scripting...

I really need to win the lottery so I hire developers and have them turn my world into sandbox game...

Nex Terren

So JavaScript is really not hard to learn, but if you try to make complex things it's pretty easy to introduce bugs for new coders. Moreso than some other languages.

James

you guys would love it.

I've tried to learn...I always end up giving up...though maybe making a video game would make me keep at it...

The other tries have been trying to figure it out when it wasn't entirely necessary that I do so for work...

Nex Terren

Haha, yeah. Getting developers to make your game idea works about as well as getting artists to draw your comic idea; the developer/artist almost always has ideas of their own that they want to create.

James

@NexTerren That's what sticks are for...beating developers.

2

or someone could program me a robot that can program my vision.

Nex Terren

21:25

@James :(

James

oh right...you're a developer.

...can you make me a robot?

too soon?

:P

Nex Terren

@James Here, let me put the finishing touches on Skynet.exe...

James

Gracias. :D

TrEs-2b

Howdy

Nex Terren

21:43

@TrEs-2b Hey, hey, hey.

TrEs-2b

yo albert (a)

Theraot

23:00

I see a conversation about RPG Maker, I used the XP version (and older versions too). So I can tell that the battle system isn't mandatory, it is prebuilt and very easy to use... building something else half as decent will take real programming effort... and some people actually did! - I was part of the community that was creating an open source alternative: easyrpg.org - those were other times, I have lost interest in game maker tools.

Thinking about it, there is something that was pretty much forced: the map. If you wanted to make a game with a random map, it would probably be easier to build it from the ground up - doing it in the tool means to put objects on each tile so that you can change their appliance and whatever or not they are passable programmatically.

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