Good morning world

@dot_Sp0T your mornings are so early

@DaaaahWhoosh yours are so late

probably, but I don't want to wake up any earlier

I've been trying to get less than 9 hours of sleep each day, it isn't working

hey guys

@AndreiROM hello!

I've just finished my first cup of coffee for the day

I feel marginally functional and capable of coherent conversation

congratulations

although today generally feels like a 3-cup minimum

how are you?

2 cups into the day, hoping to not drink more

Maybe the trick to sleeping less is just to drink more coffee

@dot_Sp0T 2 is a nice, round number. I like 2.

@DaaaahWhoosh absolutely

Long live Coffee, our Lord and Master.

Does anyone of you speak japanese?

arigato?

sensei?

I don't know the Japanese for 'no'

Can you do whole sentences as well?

I once took jiu jitsu, and the teacher person guy made us count in japanese if that helps

@DaaaahWhoosh iie

lol

nope!

too bad

There's just too much to do over the semester, I fear I'll have to abandon WB.SE again for the next 2 months :(

you have to learn Japanese in one semester?

@dot_Sp0T i'm finishing my engineering degree in night school while working full time

taking 3 courses this semester

you could say I feel stressed out :)

Nah, just an A1 level course; learning to speak a little... But all the other classes are taking time as well

@AndreiROM part-time studying (3 out of 5 days a week), 7 resp 8 courses this semester, and lots over lots of maths

@dot_Sp0T damn, that's ambitious

I hate math

or rather, math hates me

which is a strange thing to say as a developer

I love math. It's just that I haven't done any complex math for the last 7 years or so

idk

so stop chitchattering for me

o/

Anyone up for some factorio in 4 hours?

what's that

it's a factory-building game

supposedly addicting

very interesting

I'll check it out when I get home

Unfortunately I don't have a lot of time for video games anymore :(

when I do get a chance to relax, I like to slaughter innocents in Counter Strike

I haven't indulged in my RPG or RTS addictions in well over 2 months

maybe it's time ...

Also would anyone be interested in taking part as a player in an RP set in my Conworld? It would be my first as a GM, system would be GURPS Low-Tech, it'd run on roll20, would start somewhen end of year earliest and it'd help me flesh out more details of my world by active interaction

I volunteer

though I would have no idea what I'm doing

by 'conworld' I hope you're talking about a sci-fi prison planet

I've never played D&D style games, but I'm intrigued

what's the commitment? :)

@DaaaahWhoosh sadly I'm talking about the world I talked about on the meta thread as well, so there'll not even be booze-rats...

@AndreiROM commitment from my side will be to at least try getting something ready before new-year; commitment by your side(s) would be to be able to play every 2nd week (due to studying I can't really commit to a more tight schedule, but there's always chances) - presumably on a weekend so we can adjust for different timezones

@dot_Sp0T so, a few hours at a time every other week?

well, now I'm imagining a sci-fi prison planet. A small, desolate rock skimming the Goldilocks zone of a well-trafficked star system. A place to send all the undesirables, not to kill them but to get them out of the way. No ships ever land, they just drop off new inmates and the occasional supply of food.

@DaaaahWhoosh sounds cool. Very ... Riddick

In fact, I call dibs on the name :P

I kid

Yes, I would be in :D

Only now something is taking off from the planet. Something big, and ominous. A fleet of missiles, held together by duct tape and hatred, aimed at everyone who never dared look at that corner of the sky.

With time rapidly running out, a ragtag team of mercs, outlaws, and a few decent men who've run out of luck have to band together, land on this human-forsaken planet, and stop the missiles before they claim the lives of billions

It's like Escape from LA, in space

@DaaaahWhoosh would the galaxy at large not be able to shoot those down, though?

I mean, how far into space would those missiles have to travel to reach another inhabited world?

maybe they're hyperspace missiles

banned by over 200 colonized systems

@DaaaahWhoosh hahaha, nicely done

so how did the baddies get the duct-tape to build these hyperspace missiles?

did they discover an old, war-time silo built in an age gone by?

yeah, sounds good. The planet was already the place people wanted to forget about, too many secrets hidden there

@AndreiROM pretty much

sounds like one of those Snake Pliskin movies

I am soooo in

@DaaaahWhoosh that seems to be a popular setting. I've been part ofa campaign with that setting but the DM just wanted to kill pcs

@dot_Sp0T so, feel free to get in touch with me and let me know the details later :)

also, I'm not much for buying Early Access games (factorio), but I have lots of other RPG's, etc. so if you want to game sometime, add me on steam (same ID as stack exchange)

come to think of it, I guess I bought Minecraft when it was an early-access game

I don't think the term existed back then, but it called itself a beta for a long time

@DaaaahWhoosh I think Early Access is more of a Steam term than an industry one

and they've only been using it for a year or two

before it was only "beta"

I've only ever bought one early access game, and gotten bit on it

seems that most EA games are not worth the risk

and Steam doesn't have a good policy in place for requesting refunds when the devs don't deliver on promises

it seems like these days, the line between a beta and a finished game is getting blurred. Most games that release these days are buggy for the first month or more

preordering is just about as bad an idea as buying on early access

these days, I just wait to see what the people who bought the game say; if it sounds playable, I don't care if it's early access or if it's been 'done' for years

yup, preordering is risky

often times i'll wait a month or two until I hear that a game has been patched before I buy it

the last time I got screwed was with Wasteland 2

such potential, yet such a failure

i LOVED the fallout games ... and especially Fallout Tactics, funny enough (most fans hate that one for some reason)

but Wasteland is a pile of poo poo IMO

and it never improved from beta

huh, it's got a pretty good Steam score now

yes, it's got a good score

and don't get me wrong, there's lots of content, etc.

but there's things that just rankle as far as I'm concerned

huh, most of the positive reviews say there's all sorts of bugs

for example, there's different lockpicking skills for opening a chest, door, and special "chests" (toasters)

so there's like 3 pr 4 skills that cover the same actual skill

so in any given play through you may have a "thief" capable of opening high level chests, OR doors, but typically not both

thus they seek to increase "Replayability"

lol replayability, that's something I don't ever do any more

which is BS. Give us good content, don't just artificially partition stuff based on a shitty skill system

oh, to have enough free time to do the same thing over again

@DaaaahWhoosh i hear ya

if you have any time at all, I recommend Age of Decadence

one of the best RPG games I've played in a very, very long time

the story is brilliant, and the number of options you have to tackle the game world is astounding

you can literally do your own thing

Well kickstarter isn't being any help either - most people don't understand that an idea is not a finished product

@dot_Sp0T true, but a lot of devs promise the stars, and then deliver upper atmosphere at best

look at No Man's Sky

i hear they've gotten sued

No Man's Sky was the reason I don't trust any game any more. I was all ready to buy it on launch day, then I saw the reviews

it still sounds like a good time, but not for the price

@DaaaahWhoosh lol, I've had reasons for years now

@DaaaahWhoosh it's apparently really shallow

all they did is essentially copy the Space Age aspect of "Spore" and try to make it look cool

yeah, I'm hoping that eventually it's going to get more features and then go on sale, only then would I buy it

and I know this, because I bought spore on sale 2 months ago and spent a good 15 hours in it

and it's not bad at all. I mean .. if I were 12 or so, I'd love it

as it stands I got to the space age because I created a carnivorous, warlike race called the Cthulhu, bent on world, and then universe domination

I made them as hideous as possible, and literally ate every other species I encountered

but even that got old :(

I guess you can only eat so many species before they all start to taste the same

@DaaaahWhoosh their cries of pain and fear just started to blend into the background noise of the universe

Wellllll no man's sky might be a bad example

But then again, dev's get agitated when talking about their ideas

I think most games end up getting overhyped, because pretty much every development effort is going to end up having problems and delays

people think you can just give LOEs for this kind of thing, but no matter how many hours you give it's going to turn out to be harder than you thought

The issue is the following:

Developer: We want to make a game where BAM BAM BAM BAM, Gamer: AWMAGAWD THEY GONNA DO A GAME WHERE I CAN DO BAM BAM BAM!

I think the gamer needs a few more bams

I love laughing at the people who speculate about what's going to be in a game based on trailers

@DaaaahWhoosh there's an excellent youtube show that analyzes trailers with a mindset that is set upon making fun of these people

@dot_Sp0T I like it when the devs are honest about the development process. Like in Strafe, I supported it on Kickstarter, and every month or two I get an email about how the game's coming along. It really helps me understand what the game is going to be, and how long that's going to take

of course, I already paid for my copy, but that was after playing the demo

@DaaaahWhoosh dishonest people is an entirely other thing indeed; but most developers aim to inform people as much as possible nowadays, even too much in many cases

@dot_Sp0T but managing people's expectations is part of that critical marketing plan that devs need

@dot_Sp0T I guess I'm talking less about honesty and more about mystery

sure, everyone is passionate about their work, but if you promise an AMAZING game, yet know that you'll be delivering something which is merely "meh" ...

so many games these days say things along the lines of "we can't show you what the game looks like, it'll spoil the discovery"

@AndreiROM that's the issue with kickstarter and games. the devs on there do not have that. Honestly, most people don't have an idea how to make a business proposal/plan, most don't even know what one single person costs a month when working on sth - you can't not pay yourself to make sth cheaper, that doesn't work

@dot_Sp0T well, they need to wise up fast

because they are literally killing the public's trust

@AndreiROM it's not the devs fault, is it?

@AndreiROM you can't say something is bad just because someone else got disappointed by not thinking first

@dot_Sp0T it's any business man's fault when they go in not knowing the details/ or unprepared

@dot_Sp0T sorry, saying what is bad?

I can't blame the manufacturer of donuts because they made me fat, it's my own damn fault for not learning about sugar and calories

I didn't say that kickstarter or games are bad, just that being unprepared to market yourself, or manage people's expectations is bad

@DaaaahWhoosh actually never heard that, but yeah - that's just shit

@DaaaahWhoosh here we go youtube.com/watch?v=zKqsdf_Ar8M

@dot_Sp0T there's a major difference between video games and donuts

If I eat a delicious donut and get fat, it's my fault

@dot_Sp0T happened for Destiny, happened for No Man's Sky

however, if you promise me a delicious donut and deliver something which is only vaguely identifiable as such ...

@AndreiROM if you buy promises without questioning critically it's your fault as well

@DaaaahWhoosh yeah but we already said that No Man's Sky was a bad example; And honestly, Destiny? I pretty much got what I paid for on launch, a pseudo-multiplayer-shooter by Bungy

@dot_Sp0T I agree. Which is why I don't buy early access or support kick starter anymore

I've lost my trust. I think too much marketing material is pure lies to get ppl to buy in, then the project delivers on maybe half the promises, and the devs call it a day

@dot_Sp0T I got my money's worth, but I wouldn't say it's what I paid for

@AndreiROM but what you just wrote there has been true for everything that has been made/marketed in the last 50 years at least

@DaaaahWhoosh there have been leaks and shared ideas that made it look more like some futuristic WoW or similar, yes

@dot_Sp0T maybe. But once a game is released with final features you can read reviews and better inform yourself, regardless of what the marketing materials promised

@AndreiROM indeed

I was this close to preordering No Man's Sky

I am so freakin glad I didn't!

@AndreiROM I was literally a click away from buying it when I saw the Steam score

because after it came out, and I watched people play it, and read the reviews, I wouldn't even pay 20 bucks for it, let alone 50 or 60

@AndreiROM just wondering: What did it actually promise that it didn't keep to?

@dot_Sp0T giant sandworms

real stars

@AndreiROM in the early days RAM was marketed in kilobits instead of kilobytes, because marketing decided that it sounds like more than you get - which is true

multiplayer

@dot_Sp0T much better graphics and immersion, any sort of community building/multiplayer

@DaaaahWhoosh interesting, I think I read a complaint by someone that it is unacceptable that there are the same few sets of plants and rocks on every planet! That is unrealistic and makes no sense. It can't be that hard to create more variety!

@AndreiROM Well at least you're complaining about the stuff they really fucked up :)

the trailers showed a lot of animal variety, and complex behavior, but the actual game is sadly lacking in all these thigns

which is fine if that's all you promise

but it was literally in the trailer

as it stands it's literally Spore with a few extra things thrown in

So what?

I think it's also missing large creatures. Everything is like 3m or smaller

and again .. if you read the reviews, and watch the game play, and still like it, then that's great!

but it falls way short of the epic adventure they described while taking people's money

A trailer, especially E3 trailers, is made to market an idea. Many concepts get overthrown because of technical limitations, or some guy from marketing deciding to change everything the last minute

the fact that I might buy the game and spawn in another corner of the universe from my friend, with no way to contact him/her is ... i don't even have words for it

@dot_Sp0T to a point, yes, but it sounds like you're making excuses for them at this point

@AndreiROM actually, I understood this as the premise of the game

@AndreiROM I was hoping for that part, they didn't even deliver on that

so, to me, the result of all these broken promises, or at least perceived promises, is that I won't buy early access anymore

@AndreiROM sorry didn't mean to make excuses for them, I try to show up the stuff that often gets forgotten. Gamecompanies are moneymakers

@dot_Sp0T oh yea, totally, and i agree. No need to apologize

@AndreiROM e.g. look at parkitect, amazing game, also early access and kickstarter

my overall point was that devs need to wise up. Don't hype things up too much, because they'll literally poison the well for everyone. More and more ppl are refusing to buy early access, etc.

but I might check out Factorio

I guess the best way to avoid these problems is to not announce your game too early. Wait until it's almost done, then you can show people what actually exists

as I said, add me on steam or something, we might have a few game in common ;)

@DaaaahWhoosh there's a couple of different ways

there was a company last year ... I forget what they were makign, it was some sort of space battle RTS type of game (I think)

they made threshholds for different levels of money they would get

10K ... basics, 20K ... another race, 50K, 2 new races, more units, etc.

They got so much money they ended up completely scaling the whole game up

no idea what's happening with it anymore, but it sounded amazing

the key is to set up those goal posts realistically

if you promise the world at 10K, but it's actually 50K worth of content, people will be pissed

yeah, but you still run into the problem of having to estimate how much things will cost

which, from experience, never works

I like the idea of coming up with a base product and then building on it if you can, though

but I'd say you should be done with the base product before asking for money

@DaaaahWhoosh I agree, but the whole idea of kickstarter is to help ppl get their ideas off the ground :P

yeah, there's the rub

like .. if I wanted to get into developing a game, and needed capital to get started

oh well

ppl simply need to learn to manage their businesses (and that's what they are when you go and ask ppl to sponsor you)

@AndreiROM the same problem shows up everywhere. Like every job wants you to have job experience, so how do you get your first job?

if I wanted money to make a game, I'd make a small free game. Then I'd point to it and say "it's like that, only bigger"

@DaaaahWhoosh that's a good approach, if your idea is scalable, or doesn't require investment to start.

if you're looking to buy a graphic's engine, however .. some of those are 50K just to start creating your game

anyway, it really doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things

blowing 50 bucks on a game that under-delivers is not the end of the universe

I barely have time to spend on games these days anyway

yeah, at the end of the day the people who pay for these things are parents, for their kids who don't know how to be smart about this kind of thing

or generally people with more money and free time than me

people are always going to make bad purchasing decisions, so there's no reason to improve the system

@DaaaahWhoosh sad, but true

I was playing Counter Strike the other day, and one of the kids on my team was 9 years old

he totally sounded like it too

another was 11, some other one 13

and they're swearing at people, and generally being idiots about the whole thing

but they have expensive skins for their guns, etc.

someone gave them the money to buy those things

and then they did with that money all that their education and experience allows them to do

which is ... essentially to waste it

does it mean that the skin/chest system in CS is flawed? Not really, no one is forcing you to buy those things

so, back

@AndreiROM that's actually the idea of kickstarter, it's called funding

@dot_Sp0T yup, and I think it's a great thing that kickstarter exists

C'mon the big issue is that people interpret crowd-funding as getting shit for easy money

I love the idea of it - crowdfunding, not ripping ppl off, lol

Also it's a concept coming from the Americas. You know, the place where business schools teach you that you need to fail 7 times before you succeed the 8th time

@dot_Sp0T which is fine, as long as you can afford to fail 7 times

@AndreiROM but you don't. You get money from big investors that can afford to loose that money, because they calculate it into their investments

@dot_Sp0T see, this is where you're right, yet wrong

@AndreiROM please share your insights

every time you fail your credibility takes a hit

@AndreiROM in an ideal world, yes

if all your projects are sponsored by investors, and they see idea after idea fail, then people will stop giving you money

at least that's what happens in the business world (along with getting sued, etc.)

@AndreiROM the thing is, failing itself is not bad (well not that bad, still bad). It's the way how you fail... E.g. if you fail due to making the same errors multiple times, then yes - you just fucked up

with kickstarter it's a little more nuanced, because people will form new companies and ask for money all over again, while many people don't realize they're feeding the same lazy bastards who didn't deliver the last time around

However, at some point the public starts losing trust in kickstarter altogether

and that's a bad thing

Kickstarter is no guarantee to receive anything :/

I see what you're saying there, and everything you say (or most of it, idc) has a point

But the thing is: People that complain about kickstarter and crowdfunding in general are people that don't get the meaning of risk; it's a method to help someone get as much money as they think they need

In the beginning this worked, people asking you to fund them would have made business plans, thought through things and will have made financial forecasts with safety margins etc - the thing that every big investor will actually ask of you if you only ask him for money and not to help you.

But then it got hyped up, people that do not understand the matter and do not have any idea what is involved in actually doing something yourself instead of following the plans/lead of someone start pushing out amazing ideas and unrealistic deadlines. That in itself would not necessarily be bad, no investor that does this for a living will shell out money for something that is obviously flawed.. BUT the people shelling out money do not have any experience, it's basically the real estate bubble

all again, just different

ah I need to stop... sorry

so maybe it's good that people are losing faith in kickstarter... hopefully now they'll invest more wisely

@DaaaahWhoosh wise words

It's the same thing with fire: When it was new everyone wanted a share, than they started killing themselves because they weren't cautious - now fire is a staple of civilization

@AndreiROM there's two AndreiROM on steam

there better only be one DaaaahWhoosh

David?

are you referring to me?

@dot_Sp0T I have a country-ball of Romania, clutching an AK (with a soviet helmet)

@DaaaahWhoosh just making sure there's only one whoosh

oh yeah, I do have my full name on Steam

well added both of you

go accept my friendship

ALL HAIL FRIENDS

LOL

Accept my friendship, now!

DO IT

This feels much more rewarding than I thought it would

bossing people around?

it seems that you're discovering your inner bully

lol

Gotta ask this now, sorry: What exactly is going on in the heads of people discussing for hours if a game is really worth the hypothetical $5 they would have to pay for it if they bought it?

@dot_Sp0T just to make sure, this is not us you're talking about, right?

@AndreiROM I am not sure

lol

generally speaking I would say they need to go do something else for a while

but for real. If you work at a fastfood joint for an hour you will have earned at least the money to buy the game twice

This world is doomed. Let's get it over with and load up the next one

a new minecraft map? lol

idk man, I can get pretty intense about my money

but yea, arguing for hours is not healthy

debates, discussions, etc. are all good

but there comes a point where things are not progressing and it's time to call it a day

or go shoot some ppl in counter strike

let's talk sth different, you're right

I am sorry.. but WHAT? worldbuilding.stackexchange.com/questions/58292/…

@dot_Sp0T good grammar for someone who doesn't seem to know any chemistry whatsoever

@AndreiROM The answer will be yes, just add 1 % silver to the whole mix of iron and copper

@dot_Sp0T yup. Idk, just seems a silly question

it might look cool though

or... would it not look cool?

@AndreiROM that's what bothers me about our site here.. most of the questions seem not thought through really that much. I understand the site as a means to ask for help in situations where our worlds get out of our expertise..

@DaaaahWhoosh wouldn't look much different. Silver only looks fancy when polished.. a steel or bronze sword also looks fancy when polished

Howdy diddler, what are we talking about?

@TrEs-2b death of society

Yes! I'm voting for Giant Meteor 2016

I'm rather fond of society, and generally being alive.

well, you don't really know what being dead is like until you've tried it

@DaaaahWhoosh I love how open minded you are, but I'm gonna have to pass ...

@AndreiROM pun intended?

@DaaaahWhoosh sadly, I'm not even sure what the pun is ..

when someone 'has passed' it means they have died

@DaaaahWhoosh ah yes .. i'm wittier than I knew!

anyway guys

take it easy, and ill see ttyl

i'm off

o/