The Factory Floor

DaaaahWhoosh

20:00

if you had the comet slam into you at its top speed (and survive), couldn't you ride it out until it 'stops', then turn on your engines and drive away with much less gravity to worry about?

Serban Tanasa

you'll be moving at the rocket delta v plus whatever oberth effect you can get

@DaaaahWhoosh, interesting idea. Any volunteers

JDługosz

Right, you can escape, but you lose the same amount of speed as you climb the gravity well. It just is big enough now to never reach zero.

DaaaahWhoosh

@SerbanTanasa I was thinking a giant pinata full of monkeys

Serban Tanasa

yeah. you're not moving in interstellar space at the 0.2c from the comet, you're moving at whatever delta burning the comet gave you

<<<< 0.002 c

JDługosz

The delta v at peri is the olberth effect. Or as I said, fuel is more valuable at the bottom the gravity well.

Serban Tanasa

20:04

yeah, the sun's speed is about 200 km/s

you can get that at most

by definition, you cannot get more from the oberth effect

right?

that's like 0.0007 c

JDługosz

If you hang out at say 40AU with near 0 speed, your rockets fired away from the sun will give you speed X. If you fall to the sun like a comet and do nothing, you eventually end up at the same point again at the same speed. If you fire the rocket at peri, when you reach 40AU distance again you will be going faster than X.

Serban Tanasa

@JDługosz that makes sense

JDługosz

@SerbanTanasa no, you’re confusing it with a slingshot, a 3-body interaction.

Serban Tanasa

but how much faster cannot be higher than the speed of the sun in the galactic medium

maybe I am

JDługosz

@SerbanTanasa that's why a launch rocket burns as much as it can early: it's wasteful to carry the fuel uphill to use it later. That's all there is to it.

Nex Terren

20:08

@JDługosz I thought it was because it looked awesome.

JDługosz

Sun’s orbit around galaxy: that would be a slingshot effect. It's complicated by the fact that the galasy is a disk not a single central mass, but you can understand it by looking at flyby of Jupiter. Totally different idea.

Serban Tanasa

You're right, this is pure kinetic energy

Is there a good source for calculating the multiplier effect for a sungrazer?

assuming you can somehow do a huge burn as you're at closest approach?

wait, there's a wiki page :)

Billy S

How would one worldbuild Pluto?

Nex Terren

@BillyS What do you mean?

Billy S

I was thinking about a story I have, where a group of aliens are worldbuilding (or terraforming) Pluto. Is there a reasonable way to do this?

DaaaahWhoosh

20:22

@BillyS just to be clear, worldbuilding is not a synonym for terraforming, at least not the way we use it

also, it depends on what kind of planet the aliens come from

Billy S

@DaaaahWhoosh Thanks for the heads-up. I already found out how, though. Thanks for the thought.

Nex Terren

@BillyS Basically to rephrase one of the points DW said and to others: It depends on the alien's requirements, resources, and technologies.

Annnd he left.

DaaaahWhoosh

lol that was an overall useless encounter

I want to know what he found out

wait... he asked a question about it 5 days ago...

this makes both more and less sense now

James

20:41

...random question. Given modern solar panels, how quickly could a space shuttle sized craft make it to Mars. Or could it not make it at all? Basically are our panels efficient enough to facilitate both existing in orbit and thrust?

DaaaahWhoosh

solar panels generate thrust?

Nex Terren

@James "Existing in orbit?" I mean. The moon exists in orbit (almost perfectly, if not perfectly) and it doesn't use solar panels.

@DaaaahWhoosh I think he was suggesting translating the energy collected by the solar panels into thrust via... shoot. I know "ion engines" are real, but I can't recall how practical they are...

James

@NexTerren So take something like the ISS. Is it able to provide life support and maintain its orbit via solar panels or does it require fuel shipments>

@DaaaahWhoosh They generate energy which can generate thrust...wiseass...

Nex Terren

@James Maintaining orbit is just the initial push, unless something is slowing you down. Orbit is just a specifically positioned, continuous fall.

DaaaahWhoosh

@NexTerren you probably need to make constant minor adjustments

James

20:45

Right but I recall (and I could be making this up) that the ISS requires regular adjustments to maintain its orbit.

DaaaahWhoosh

9

Q: What propulsion methods does the ISS use for station-keeping?

The International Space Station is constantly losing orbital energy due to atmospheric drag. How does station-keeping work for the ISS? What sort of propulsion system is used to keep it in the desired orbit, and where are these thrusters located? I imagine it could be as simple as pressurized nit...

Nex Terren

Oh, it does face atmospheric drag? I thought it was higher up than that.

DaaaahWhoosh

I mean, there's a lot of atmosphere

"The ISS requires an average 7,000 kg of propellant each year for altitude maintenance, debris avoidance and attitude control"

Nex Terren

So 2 m/s increase for the rough ratio of surface area to mass that the ISS is. Okay. And it appears that Electrostatic Ion Thrusters are "highly efficient." So... 80% efficiency? As a guess?

So we need to take the mass of the supposed object, find out how much energy is required to increase the acceleration by 2 m/s over the course of a month, and figure out the efficiency of solar panels. I guess.

James

I didn't know enough to ask this question on main (nor do I particularly care enough to look it up) but it was in my brain

If anyone wants to flesh it out and ask it on main feel free to steal it.

Nex Terren

20:51

So it'd be:

Energy per m^2 solar panel per month * 0.8 * power requirement to accelerate 1 kg 2 m/s per moth * mass of the object = Surface area required for the panels

I think?

Wait. No.

So it'd be:

Energy per m^2 solar panel per month * 0.8 / (power requirement to accelerate 1 kg 2 m/s per moth * mass of the object) = Surface area required for the panels

There we go.

TrEs-2b

Ahoy hoy!

DaaaahWhoosh

the solar panels would also have mass

Nex Terren

@TrEs-2b DW is making me do math!

They would. Hm.

DaaaahWhoosh

@NexTerren James started it!

James

DANCE PUPPETS! BWAHAHAHA

TrEs-2b

20:53

@NexTerren You wanted it and you know it

DaaaahWhoosh

also, since you're counteracting drag, you need to factor the surface area of solar panels into the cost of accelerating

James

@DaaaahWhoosh Except that you would have less drag on a trip to mars

Nex Terren

Energy per m^2 solar panel per month * number of m^2 of solar panels * 0.8 / (power requirement to accelerate 1 kg 2 m/s per moth * (mass of the base object + number of m^2 of solar panels * weight of 1 m^2 of solar panels)) = 0

Is that right?

James

@NexTerren 7

TrEs-2b

6

DaaaahWhoosh

20:55

5

James

14

TrEs-2b

4

28

James

56

Nex Terren

@DaaaahWhoosh If we guess that the rough ratio of colliding surface area and mass is in equal to the ISS we use the 2 m/s number in my formula.

If we DON'T guess that we need to map the drag, and that's way, way above my paygrade.

James

Sorry, what were we talking about

DaaaahWhoosh

20:56

@NexTerren yeah, drag is such a drag

2

Nex Terren

What's a dictionary you guys trust?

@DaaaahWhoosh STOP IT. I ONLY HAVE SO MANY STARS

TrEs-2b

@James how @NexTerren is a dirty boy who loves doing math

Nex Terren

...

James

Im not entirely sure why I am laughing right now but something up here ^ is funny.

TrEs-2b

Nex Terren

21:02

...Hey wait a second, that avatar looks familiar...

James

lol

Nex Terren

Speaking of which I really need a new one, but I don't feel inspired.

DaaaahWhoosh

@NexTerren I suggest something featuring two shades of blue

perhaps they are spiraling around each other

TrEs-2b

@NexTerren watch this for the domestication vs tame; youtube.com/watch?v=wOmjnioNulo

Nex Terren

@DaaaahWhoosh It's purple, not blue.

@TrEs-2b Are you trying to be funny?

TrEs-2b

21:07

no

Nex Terren

Because that's the EXACT same video the other guy linked me to.

TrEs-2b

Yeah, watch it again

DaaaahWhoosh

is it the CGP Grey video?

TrEs-2b

:I

Nex Terren

I didn't watch it. :P I'm at work, but I honestly can't imagine an argument he puts forward that throws aside my common sense definition, as well as the definition from two dictionaries I trust.

The Youtuber can feel free to repurpose the term as he wishes, but that doesn't redefine the term for English at large.

TrEs-2b

21:10

No, he makes a pretty good argument, one of the points litterally coincides with mine

Nex Terren

So since I'm at work and can't click, what's his argument as to why the dictionaries are wrong, and he's right? Or does he not mention the dictionaries' definitions?

TrEs-2b

@NexTerren give me a sec, i'll write them down

Nex Terren

@TrEs-2b If I'm making you do undue effort ignore my request, naturally. I figured it was a quick argument.

TrEs-2b

Domesticating is to specifically breed the animal to our purpose; horses, cows, chickens, etc. Taming is to make an individual animal okay with humans (like circus animals); lions and elephants

One is over the span of generations the other is not

Nex Terren

Okay, so that's redefining a word. What's his counter to the standing definition being wrong?

TrEs-2b

21:14

What do you mean?

Those are the definitions

DaaaahWhoosh

@TrEs-2b i agree with those definitions

TrEs-2b

@DaaaahWhoosh thanks

DaaaahWhoosh

...I can't tell if it'll be taken poorly if I suggest not thanking me

James

@DaaaahWhoosh probably but I recommend doing it anyways.

Nex Terren

So let's Bob wants a single word for "starchy vegetable." Bob decides to repurpose the word "potato." The next time I hear you say "potato," I say, "Keep in mind that refers to any starchy vegetable" you go "What? No it doesn't," and dig out a couple of dictionary, and find the definition. The dictionaries support you in defining a potato as specifically... well a potato.

I then link to Bob's awesome Youtube video defining "Potato" as "any starchy vegetable"

Is my argument sound?

James

21:17

nope

that would be circular/self defining

DaaaahWhoosh

consider the definition of a theory, and how people say that the layman's definition and the scientist's definition are different

Nex Terren

So unless the Youtuber sources some external source that trumps a dictionary definition, the dictionary definition should trump the video.

DaaaahWhoosh

I'd like to suggest we don't use the verb 'trump' any more, at least for the next four months

TrEs-2b

Agreed

Nex Terren

Okay, I won't use it as a verb. But I will still use it. And you just wait... my use... is my trump card.

DaaaahWhoosh

21:21

D:

anyway, I agree, go with the definition provided by the more authoritative source

but don't just discredit an alternate definition because you've never heard it before

google.com/…

Nex Terren

So okay. You're right. I mean I haven't watched the video so maybe he does cite some highly authoritative source that... bests... multiple dictionaries. If he does, correct me.

But if he doesn't it seems silly to use his as the almighty definition.

DaaaahWhoosh

I defer to Google

Nex Terren

Also I didn't start any argument over semantics, it was Cody. :P

TrEs-2b

Sure it wasn't Zack?

DaaaahWhoosh

is that a Disney Channel reference? And if not, forget I said anything

Nex Terren

21:24

Man, that show came on about a year after I stopped watching Disney.

Kim Possible, I shall miss you.

*Disney channel. I mean I still watch their movies.

James

@DaaaahWhoosh I have so many questions...

Nex Terren

What year did Z&C come out?

James

not the least of which are 1. Do you have a moustache? and 2. Do you drive a van with blacked out windows?

Nex Terren

Wait. How did he jump from not knowing Disney show references to pedophillia?

TrEs-2b

@NexTerren you can't not watch the movies, they connect all living generations. also 2005

DaaaahWhoosh

21:26

they made a spinoff where they're on a boat

TrEs-2b

yeah no one knows why though

Nex Terren

Man, Kim Possible stopped airing in 2007?!

No way it's been that long.

James

I suddenly feel very old.

DaaaahWhoosh

@NexTerren I would've guessed longer

Nex Terren

I refuse to accept this reality.

TrEs-2b

21:27

wanna feel old

Nex Terren

@DaaaahWhoosh Well it started in 2002. They brought it back after a fan-base protest and made a final season.

James

@NexTerren Why the hell else would we be on a world building site...of course we don't accept reality.

2

Nex Terren

So in a strictly non-creepy way, how old is everyone?

@James I told you to stop it.

TrEs-2b

the release of Little mermaid is mermaid is closer to vietnam than modern day

DaaaahWhoosh

@NexTerren in a moderately creepy way, 23

TrEs-2b

21:28

@NexTerren I've already said it, almost 17, still a wee little baby

James

@NexTerren Thank you for clarifying the non-creepy nature of your request.

34

Nex Terren

Cleopatra died closer to the moon landing than she did the construction of the pyramids.

James

omg I am old...when the hell did that happen

Nex Terren

Oh, forgot to say for myself. 26.

DaaaahWhoosh

speaking of time...

TrEs-2b

21:29

The T-Rex is closer to modern times than to triceratops times

Nex Terren

@James Why the edit?

James

it felt better consolidated.

Nex Terren

The editor in you.

James

Example: Peanut butter is good. Jelly is good. But put them between bread and man...mind. blown.

Actually a grilled PB&J is an amazing thing

TrEs-2b

Speaking of old, my mother recites little mermaid scenes (not songs, scenes) when she is bored

Nex Terren

21:31

I can stand grilled PB&J. I haven't had a normal PB&J since gradeschool and I no desire for this to change.

@TrEs-2b Man, people who recite scenes from the Little Mermaid are just the oldest!

James

...my wife has been known to do that on occasion. She also busts out the songs when the kids are being really loud and obnoxious.

...me, I just quote Wayne's World a lot.

TrEs-2b

@NexTerren Never had PB&J

I don't quote movies, but characters

Nex Terren

@TrEs-2b I'm just not a fan. The jelly and PB just become this goo and make the bread kind of soggy, unless you waste good bread on it.

Making one and having it in your lunch bag all day for lunch and they turn into...

Uhhhhg.

#GradeSchoolFlashbacks

Speaking of grade school, who here has watched Stranger Things?

TrEs-2b

I prefer eating foods ingredients; I don't understand how you people can eat different food groups in one food item.

James

Yeah see take some tasty marble rye, put pb&j in the middle, then butter it like a grilled cheese and cook it til its crispy on the outside...its amazing

TrEs-2b

21:34

#segregatethefoodgroups

James

@TrEs-2b You'll grow out of that little guy. I used to do that too.

Nex Terren

@James See, you weren't old until you said that.

2

TrEs-2b

No! I eat what I want to!

Nex Terren

Now there's no going back.

"BACK WHEN I WAS YOUR AGE..."

Missed opportunities: Being born the older twin, and saying "BACK WHEN I WAS YOUR AGE" and follow it with what you did five minutes ago.

2

James

@NexTerren I suddenly wish I was a twin...

TrEs-2b

21:37

Missed opportunities: being a creepy kid; saying I hear voices, why do I hear screaming, play with me....

As a kid everything can be easily creepy

James

@TrEs-2b You can totally still do that.

Nex Terren

@TrEs-2b You missed that opportunity? I so wouldn't have called that.

TrEs-2b

It works better as a 6 year old

James

...and you should video it and share it with us

TrEs-2b

@NexTerren I didn't say it was my missed opportunity

Nex Terren

21:38

Speaking of creepy kids.

James

@NexTerren Oh lord here we go...lets hear it...

Nex Terren

Today's company newsletter (email) rolls in, and this is at the top:

James

GAH!

TrEs-2b

Not that creepy

James

Take it away

Nex Terren

21:39

It's SORT of creepy for what I assume is supposed to be cute.

TrEs-2b

James

Those eyes say "I just burned down your house with your animals inside"

3

Nex Terren

This isn't some sort of random kid in the park, either. This is a kid that some corporate somebody thought would be a lovely picture to mail out to the employees across the globe.

James

The shadows do something strange to her face...like a bat...or the devil is going to jump out of her eyeballs.

Nex Terren

Also time to see if anyone can figure out what company I work for from the newsletter.

Ghanima

21:41

@NexTerren be careful with your complaints, for all you know it could be the kid of the CEO

TrEs-2b

@NexTerren Do we need a repeat of Gaston

James

@TrEs-2b Think of the children.

Nex Terren

@Ghanima If it is, I understand where the kid's receding hairline comes from.

TrEs-2b

I am such a Machiavellian Super villain

Nex Terren

@TrEs-2b Wait, how does Gaston connect to the company I work for? Do you know something I don't?!

TrEs-2b

21:43

Never forget Gaston....

James

@TrEs-2b how could I...its burned into my retinas

...and on that note I am the hell out. Have a good evening all.

Nex Terren

Noooo ooooneeee issss assss.... blockedfromyourmindasGaston!

GetsTrEs-2bbanslikeGaston!

Later, @James T. Kirk.

TrEs-2b

not a kid, but created by a kid

Nex Terren

@TrEs-2b That looks suspiciously like it was drawn by somebody in photoshop trying to make it look like a kid's drawing. Also that is the strangest ruled paper I've ever seen.

TrEs-2b

true, hope not though

Here is one I found for a baked beans advertisement;

Nex Terren

21:49

Aw, Jimmie looks like he'll try his best to develop as a normal member of society but devolve into psychopathic tendencies!

TrEs-2b

damn it nex...

I can't resist

Nex Terren

I'm out. @TrEs-2b. Podcast. Make progress.

Or videocast. Or whatever it is.

Cast things.

TrEs-2b

We still need software and a time

but we'll talk

Nex Terren

Microsoft Word and high noon.

My work here is done.

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