The Factory Floor - 2019-09-18

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12:00 AM

Suppose you want to change your past, doing so without any precaution can lead to the grandfather paradox and hence you either cannot change the past or you permanently destabilise the timeline

This occurs because the reason of travelling back is negated

But what if, you make two changes in history, the other being to create a reverse grandfather paradox that prompt you to time travel in the first place.

Then you have a pair of discontinuity in history, one is grandfather paradox, and one is reverse grandfather paradox. These two discontinuities can then fuse together, producing a new predestination paradox hence stabilising the altered history

This should in theory work because all a grandfather paradox cares is whether the travelling back event can occur, i.e. boundary conditions

The above situation is described in terms of the back to the future model (the ripple effect model). In the Steins:Gate attractor field model, it will be a loop transversing multiple attractor fields

12:44 AM

hey there @Green

12:55 AM

@Shalvenay hey!

@Green how're things going?

1:07 AM

@Shalvenay trying to learn how to get great oven spring. It continually escapes me.

hm

so, do you remember the WB.SE Q about the werewolf-slaying poison?

1:25 AM

15

Q: Chemical weapon to kill a werewolf

A weapon is needed for a climactic battle against an otherwise invincible wolf monster. In principle it could be any random thing, like the traditional silver, but we want something based in science. It should be a real chemical with actual biological properties, and something that takes effect f...

science-based biology chemistry biochemistry

@Green also, "oven spring"?

2:05 AM

Hey @AndyD273

3 hours later…

4:49 AM

@Shalvenay baking term. It's what you get when thr bread rises crazy fast in the oven. It's what causes all that big expansion marks on the crust of good bread.

8 hours later…

12:23 PM

@Green Any special kind of bread you're trying to make?

@AndyD273 Sup?

@JasonClyde Not a lot, just getting started for the day.

@AndyD273 Fair enough.

@AndyD273 As for me I've got one or two things I'm debating if I can phrase into askable questions.

@JasonClyde Sure. What you got?

Well this one magic ability in my world is essentially a hammer space closet.

You open up a portal to a pocket dimension that's 7x7x3 feet

12:33 PM

That explains the closet word... What's hammer space?

Hammerspace is a fiction term for a pocket-dimensional inventory

ok

When people just seem to pull weapons or items out of nowhere

so whats the problem?

Ahh, ok

Not a problem so much as a "this has possibilities I'm looking for insight into"

The thing is that time doesn't move inside the pocket dimension when the portal is closed.

12:35 PM

ok

And a few things jumped out at me that suggested a power like this would be a game changer in several industries.

Like, say, food. Infinite shelf life for perishable food items.

makes sense

or any other perishable item

Hell there might even be some food we only don't eat because there's no time to get it to the customer in an edible state.

Yeah.

But I can't just ask for people to list industries this would be useful in, can I?

Probably not...

Figured.

12:38 PM

I mean, that's a great chat question... I'm just trying to think of a way to phrase it that doesn't sound too broad

Yeah

Thanks

Is there a limit to the number of closets that a person can have?

The big problem is that if everyone gives you a list, how do you decide who has the best list?

One per person. It's tied to the rune that gives them the power. Technically you could give someone more than one of the rune, but the only one who can do that is a villain.

So what do you put in a private space thats 7x7x3... and is that 3 feet tall, wide, or deep?

Deep. It's how far you can walk straight into it.

Also it's empty by default, but you can put shelves in there just by... putting them in there.

12:50 PM

perishable things like food, chemicals, liquefied gasses (oxygen, nitrogen, hydrogen, helium, etc), contraband (especially if the villain has given a minion a second rune so they can show the authorities their official closet, while the unofficial one is full of knock off nike shoes).

Oh that last one would be an awesome idea if it would work. Unfortunately it would require some real sleight of hand hustling to keep the authorities from noticing that he has two gamergate runes on his arm.

Ugg

Autocorrect

The rune is called Hammergate.

I hate how it took me that long to correct it.

I hate autocorrect.

Yeah, he'd have two of the hammerspace runes on his arm, and it'd take an impressive hustle to keep the authorities from noticing.

@AndyD273 but it would make an awesome scene if it worked.

1:15 PM

@AndyD273 But yeah, one thing I'm really curious about is if there's any food that would be delicious if there was any conceivable way of getting it to the customer while it still tastes good, because if so, suddenly this hammergate rune would make that available. It probably wouldn't significantly make fresh ingredients cheaper, given that not everyone would have this rune so space would be limited, but it would be interesting if it made some new luxury dishes possible.

@Green Hey, welcome back

@JasonClyde temporary tattoo?

@AndyD273 Pain de campagne. Essentially, classic unenriched bread made of bread flour and a little bit of whole wheat. I'm practicing my ability to get oven spring. I think I overproof too much (let it rise too long) and don't get the results that I want.

@JasonClyde hey!

@JasonClyde So does that mean that your hand and forearm don't age when stuck into the pocket dimension?

@Green Assuming you found a way to tele-frag your own arm and slice it off with the closing portal, yes.

Oh, organ transportation for transplants

@JasonClyde okay. Just trying to nail down the rules.

1:19 PM

In fact, organ storage in general

Oh yeah

Actually that's another thing, the medical field in general is going to be hit by a truck when this happens

I mean, good for humanity, but terrible for business.

A donor dies, but no one needs that heart right now. Just put it in a cooler, put it in the closet, and now there is a heart waiting for the next person who needs it, whenever that is

@JasonClyde You could invent some flavor that's incredibly short lived, found only in one very remote spot on earth, and all the rich people of the world really really want. Transporting that flavor would be really lucrative.

I'm assuming that situation doesn't happen very often, but being able to store excess organs until they are needed would be handy

@Green I'm curious if there are any real world examples of that... I mean, where seconds matter, vs a few hours with proper refrigeration.

See, the medical field is fucked because everyone who was old enough to have a brand at the moment brands started appearing is what Doctor Who would call "Immortal, barring accidents". They were instantly restored to their twenties when it happened, no longer age or get sick, and can eventually heal from anything that doesn't kill them. Everyone born after them though? Shit outta luck. They're a little better than what humans used to be like, but they age and get sick like normal.

1:23 PM

@JasonClyde so the first brand was an immortality brand?

@AndyD273 Okay, so, there are brands and there are runes. Brands are the things on your arm that hold runes. Runes are the things that go on the brand that give the interchangeable powers. But everyone who was old enough for a brand when all this started got a silver brand, while everyone after them got a copper brand. And yes, these brands do grant powers on their own depending on their color.

@AndyD273 I'm sure someone could find one. There has to be lots of organic molecules that degrade quickly in an oxygen-rich atmosphere. Most of them probably smell terrible but some must be pleasant. Make the association between the smell of that molecule and wealth then you've got your super expensive smell.

Passive stuff mostly improving the body itself.

@Green @AndyD273 But long story short, the only people who need any medical treatment other than emergency room surgery are people who were born fewer than 13 years before the story starts. Which will get to be a larger and larger number of people, but when this initially starts... my guess is that a lot of doctors are going to be out of a job?

@JasonClyde Yep, like the buggy whip manufacturers that came before them.

@JasonClyde Maybe, but there are still going to be a lot of kids under 13, so they will all still need help. And since the doctors will be over 13, they won't get old or die, so they'll still be around when demand starts to tick back up.

1:36 PM

@AndyD273 Assuming there's no skill decay on the part of the doctors when they don't get enough constant practice.

@Green Maybe, but there will be a constant low level flow from the kids, and a slow and steady rise as time goes on.

@Green @AndyD273 I wonder if there's anything else doctors could do with their skills when the demand first plummets.

@JasonClyde I don't think so. Human anatomy, physiology and pharmacology are very specific to humans. There's some degree of overlap with other mammals but vets aren't nearly as common as doctors.

@JasonClyde practice on living patients that have silver runes, since they will heal from any injury

Hmmm...

I wonder what percentage of doctors have enough money that they can afford to train in another profession...

I mean it's not that I really don't want this to actually result in massive economic damage, I'm just trying to think through what would happen.

1:52 PM

@JasonClyde I worry more about the psychological damage that immortal humans would do to doctors. Very often I hear stories of doctors "wanting to help people, to heal people". They pour their soul into the work....what happens when the cause you devoted your life to evaporates essentially overnight?

@Green interesting point.

@JasonClyde Think about it. Medical school is exceptionally hard. Medical interns work >100 hours a week to get up to speed. "Pouring in your whole soul" is real for them in a way that many other people can't grasp.

@Green Yeah and then throwing getting stuck at a low skill job on top of that if you didn't have money saved up, and that's gotta be soul-crushing.

@JasonClyde precisely.

2:35 PM

@JasonClyde Maybe medical research and pediatrics?

If the president has some forward looking people, they are going to realize that this dip is a relatively short lived thing pretty soon after the first 12 yo turns 13 and doesn't get a silver brand, and especially when the first person with a bronze brand dies of something that doesn't kill a silver.

There would be some incentive for the government to try to keep a healthy core of doctors up to speed.

@AndyD273 True, big incentive there.

3:00 PM

@AndyD273 Also, since the brands/rune appeared out of nowhere, they could just as easily disappear too.

@Green Also true as far as they know. But what kind of government program could keep a currently-useless profession employed in some way?

@JasonClyde are you asking "how is it possible" or "what would be the structure of that program"?

@Green A mix of both. I'm having trouble visualizing something like that. Closest thing I can think of would be having people research silverbrand and copperbrand biology, but that wouldn't require that many people so it wouldn't really keep the profession healthy in the event that magic goes away again.

3:18 PM

@JasonClyde Inevitably, the market for doctors will shrink. Kids <13 years make up a fairly small portion of the population and are already served by pediatricians. Geriatric medicine will vanish overnight.

I guess the program would be to maintain a largish corpus of medical educators who pass-on their knowledge by verbal and written means. This is really tricky since the patients you want to save, the very old, don't exist anymore. When/if the magic goes away, society will have really high mortality rates in the very old, like it was before medicine got so good at prolonging life.

Makes sense. So it's more about preserving the knowledge, since keeping our current medical field actively trained just flat out wouldn't be possible.

At least not at its current size if so few people need them.

@JasonClyde Not sure if you're trying to be funny, but isn't that the main purpose of government?

@AndyD273 Ahahahaha.

3:33 PM

And remember, there are still going to be a LOT of kids that are still going to get sick, and have accidents, and all of the things that they normally do, and that number won't go down when they turn 13. The medical industry will take a hit, especially in geriatric care, but it won't be wiped out

@AndyD273 Overall systemic medical costs would drop like crazy. I read somewhere that most of medical spending is on old people, keeping them alive longer than they otherwise would.

@Green Sure, and a lot of hospitals will probably close. Your point about the people who are hoping to be doctors, or are just starting out, is a really good one. But St. Judes (to take one example) won't be affected at all.

In fact, they will probably benefit because a rush of doctors to get in there, and a rush of equipment from hospitals that are closing

@AndyD273 MRI machines for pennies on the dollar.

@Green and/or that equipment will be sold off to hospitals in poorer countries that wouldn't be able to afford it normally

Hmmmm... Verrrrry interesting. I'll have to save all of this info somewhere.

3:52 PM

What I kind of see happening is that for a while a lot of places might have a smaller hospital, something like the country doctor of days past, and hospitals in big urban centers will have cut backs, but be kept open, while pediatrics will see a boom.

4:04 PM

But specialists will always be needed, so they will be safe.

Hmm, my town has a weirdly high number of assisted living facilities... I wonder if they would be turned into apartments.

@AndyD273 What kinds of specialists?

4:24 PM

@JasonClyde heart surgeons, brain surgeons, etc

Even if the silvers don't need them, they are a small enough group that there will be demand for their services from non silvers

@AndyD273 Oh even the silvers might need heart surgeons from time to time. Eventually healing from any wound isn't gonna help much if the wound is fatal. Emergency room doctors are probably going to be fine, more or less.

And support staff will have cutbacks, but there will still be some needed; anesthesiologists, technicians, nurses, etc.

Plastic surgeons will still get work I'm sure. Even if everyone looks young, they still might want to look different

@AndyD273 You just accidentally stumbled on one of the downsides to being a silverbrand.

You heal from any wound, even if you liked the wound.

They do get options later for looking different, but plastic surgeons have no part in it, sad for them.

Ah, ok, so if a plastic surgeon puts in a breast implant then, the body will reject it?

Yes. Which has horrifying implications for trans people, at least initially.

4:35 PM

Actually, same for other implants, like pace makers

How does it reject it? Just ejects it from the body?

Yeah. Thankfully the way it works, that initial rejection isn't lethal.

Huh...

It doesn't quite eject it, not all in one piece.

When silverbrands first get their brand, their entire body is rejuvenated and fully healed in a matter of seconds.

based on what template?

What their genetics say they should look like fully grown.

4:38 PM

Meaning, lets say the person was born deaf because of a genetic birth defect. They get an implant to let them hear. Do they go back to not being able to hear, or does that defect get corrected?

They become deaf again if the implant is inside of their body.

But if you became deaf due to an accident, you can hear again.

An accident or anything else not caused by your genetics

So a person is born with a genetic defect that causes the heart to not be formed correctly. As a baby/child they got it fixed, and now are now in their mid 20s, when they would have died before they were 10 otherwise. Going by these rules I am assuming that they would have their heart broken again, and will probably die, even though they are silvers?

Just making sure I understand the rules :)

Yes, as long as the thing making them slowly die isn't damage to the body that they would be healing.

If they get a heart transplant, does the magic use their genetics, or the donors genetics?

I don't know how it works but you said they'd have lived about 10 years with the condition so it must kill slowly in some way.

Organ transplants work only if you had a healthy organ originally. Basically when you hook up a transplant, the body lets it do its thing, but slowly assimilates it and converts it to the DNA of the body it's inside.

4:46 PM

@JasonClyde so not much hope for someone who has a defect, until later when whatever happens that changes that

Yeah. If they can hold out for a month, they get a way out thanks to one of the runes, but otherwise...

how fast does the healing happen?

Maybe if a heart surgeon fixes them again, it will take long enough to unfix that they will survive

Healing and reconnecting tissue and the like never takes more than 24 hours. But regrowing limbs and converting foreign organs takes a week.

Also regrowing organs

@JasonClyde If the heart is removed, I'm assuming the person dies before it can grow back

Yes, unless they can keep their blood pumping some other way.

4:53 PM

@JasonClyde I see black market organ harvesting becoming a thing... Hook them up to a bypass machine, remove the heart, let the new one grow back, repeat... scary

Oh, so that can be done with modern technology?

And yes, the concept of abusing regeneration in creepy organ-farming ways did occur to me.

@JasonClyde They have bypass machines for doing open heart surgery when they have to stop the heart for a while to fix it.

Ah yes of course.

Could eventually have a task force to hunt down traffickers an free the organs slaves.

Here's an idea for a short story set in that universe. Old man gets the silver brand, suddenly becomes young, but because of a heart defect also gets put into the hospital, hooked up to life support, trying to figure out ways to keep him alive. All the things they try fail, and he's getting weaker and weaker. He has to deal with the idea of being in a young body that is killing him faster than his old one. They bring in all the family to say goodbye... and a new rune shows up

Hmm... definitely interesting.

Especially since the thing that saves him is gonna cause body irony issues all its own.

5:05 PM

@JasonClyde Oh?

@James Hey, in reference to role playing, I've seen a certain kind of chart to show strengths/weaknesses. It's a circle with multiple axises, and a line going around the inside to show their levels along those axises. I'm trying to figure out what that kind of chart is called. Any idea what I'm talking about?

5

Q: Would it be feasible to determine whether or not a humanoid species is fertile in less than a week?

So, as one of the many, many consequences of modern day humanity being given access to a runic magic system by an unknown party, nearly the entire human race discovers one morning that they've been given an entirely separate body they can shapeshift into and out of at will. This species is largel...

biology reproduction humanoid

See, he won't be human anymore if he takes the way out.

@JasonClyde Worth it. Also, from that question, at the end of the week the body freezes in the new body. But down the road they have the option to replace old runes with new runes each week... So what happens if they discard the body replace rune? Do they just revert to their old human body?

Ah yes, sorry I didn't clarify in context of runes.

It doesn't matter for the sake of that question, just something that I was curious about

@AndyD273 Basically the shifting runes, like the black trial runes, can't be re-arranged on your brand. They're always in the deletion slot and will go away the next time you get a rune. But rune only represents the ability to shift between the forms, not the ability to have the form. Give up the rune while shifted, you stay shifted forever.

5:15 PM

Ah, so the shifting rune is a black rune

or just the same effect

Follows the same brand rules at least.

Ok, that makes sense

But non shifting/non black runes can be arranged and kept on the brand at will?

Yeah.

cool

So wait... everyone gets the shifting brand, and while they have it technically aren't human? Or they only aren't human while they are shifted?

As long as they have the rune, they can shift if they want, but don't have to.

5:21 PM

I wonder who wouldn't, if only a little, if only to fix that one small thing you've always wanted to... and especially since it might be the first shifting rune and the rules aren't known yet. I think most people would change something in the first few hours, before the whole "Wait, the shifted body is different" part gets figured out

Ah, sorry, I was a bit vague in the question.

The question is fine. This is getting way out in the weeds

Yeah I mean the question didn't explain much about the second body.

Just that it is a second body.

@AndyD273 Have you ever played shadowrun?

A little... For the sake of this answer lets just say no

Basically when I played it I was fascinated by the concept it presented of creating fantasy races and populating them with ex-humans.

And then putting them in a modern or in shadowrun's case futuristic setting.

These shifting runes are my attempt to do something similar, except voluntary instead of forced.

It's not that this rune gives you full power to alter your genetic makeup

It gives you a second, humanoid but non-human body and gives you a week to decide which you want to keep.

The reason it saves him from his heart condition is because the new body doesn't have that condition.

5:28 PM

Ah, ok. So switch between human and elf, but not human and slightly taller human.

Yeah. And not elves, my own original races, but beyond that you get the idea.

right

do they get access to more than one non-human race? Using classic examples, morph between human, elf, dwarf, and then have to figure one they want before the end of the week?

Sort of. It's one race at a time, but eventually multiple come out and you don't have to still be human to get a choice at the next one.

Ah, ok

One week it would be elves, maybe a few months later a dwarf rune appears, etc.

5:36 PM

sounds pretty interesting

Thanks!

"The committee appreciates that your 2020 launch is on track, but the 'human capital/personnel retention' budget includes a lot more unmarked cash payments than usual. What are th--" "Public outreach."

Hahahaha.

@AndyD273 So it just occurs to me that one of the answers to my latest worldbuilding question, neglect-proofing the power grid, would demand it's own new question to iron it out due to how many questions it raises

The "use child labor" answer I got.

I mean for starters the idea that it would even be used by society raises so many red flags.

@JasonClyde OK, though I don't see why it should be a problem. Just make it a school requirement.

If it was working in the mines, then yeah

If it was sewing shoes, also yeah

But for mission critical infrastructure in a generally safe, well maintained, and government monitored facility?

True, it isn't the same.

5:48 PM

And where they wouldn't do much other than train/shadow the grownups normally

Yeah, it would only be a couple of weeks a year they actually work.

Most days it would be "Hey Billy, ready to do the rounds? You've been doing so well with the quizzes that I'll let you flip the switches today."

I guess I barely see it as child labor. A lot closer to "take your child to work day"

Well yeah most of the time

6:25 PM

@James Never mind, apparently it's called a radar chart

Thought [this](https://worldbuilding.stackexchange.com/a/156374/9660) was funny

> First: just eating like an athlete doesn't make you an athlete.

6:41 PM

Hahaha

Journeyman Geek

it probably makes you fat ;p

7:16 PM

@Green speaking of bread, I think I may try this ciabatta bread recipe later...

1 hour later…

8:42 PM

@AndyD273 Ogre battle 64 has those.

2 hours later…

10:55 PM

hey there @Green

11:20 PM

@AndyD273 I don't have ideal water:flour ratios in my head. From experience making ciabatta, you have to have some crazy wet dough and minimal handling to get (and keep) the big air bubbles.

@Shalvenay hey!

@CaptainMan I enjoyed that line too.

11:54 PM

@Green how're things going?

@Shalvenay Watching SEAD missions on Youtube. You?

@Green pondering the poisoning-the-invulnerable-werewolf question we had here a while back, and was thinking "do we really have to kill the thing?" because entactogens are a thing, and would give a different...angle to dealing with such a beast. MDMA isn't a great choice specifically because it seems to be a bit short on specificity in effect

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Sep '1918

The Factory Floor

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