The Factory Floor - 2016-02-24 (page 1 of 4)

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2:13 AM

@bilbo_pingouin there are ways around the divide by 0 problem - for example, treating 0's as 1s

You could make a temporary table by selecting all the people with 0 downvotes so that you don't apply the formula to them, and then joining the two tables

2:26 AM

@TimB You can have fun doing serious worldbuilding ._. My biggest issue is with the questions that result in answers which are all valid, resulting in an unclear green checkmark

5 hours later…

Worldbuilding Meta

7:51 AM

0

Q: Case study - Pavel Janicek

Part of Case study series: How many humans can I abduct without getting noticed? About worldbuilding? I doubt so. It does not really build a world, it just uses real world as a background. Risking off-topic? I think no. When writing the question, I tried to provide clear criteria for accepted ...

@Aify I'm sure there are, but that would not be mathematically correct to replace the 0 by a 1... and regardless, my SQL proficiency is quite limited :-P

2 hours later…

10:15 AM

@Aify Yes, having a way to rate answers is important - being able to select the strongest answer to upvote/accept

4 hours later…

2:38 PM

"We went from not-flying-at-all to landed-on-the-moon in like 70 years."

for some reason, I like this sentence

@DaaaahWhoosh it says alot about the human race

@Aify & @TimB This is another difference between SO and WB though. In SO you can have one clear right answer, which is the answer that solves the problem with the cleanest, most efficient code. In WB you can't do the same thing, because except for hard-science and to a lesser extent reality-check, most the time stuff is only loosely based on reality.

So if I ask a "anatomically correct griffin" question, which is something that can't exist in reality as we know it, there is no one right answer. There are only answers which I, the asker, like more than others based on the world I'm making up in my head.

the fact that we haven't been to the moon in almost 70 years says some other things

So two people can make up perfectly valid, completely opposite answers, and the only way to judge between them is for me to decide which one is better. There is no "unclear green checkmark" on WB. There is the checkmark that I choose to give to one and not the other, and it is the best answer because I decided it was the best answer.

We don't need to be able to rate answers, since it's all the opinion of the user. If you like an answer, upvote it. If I like an answer, I can upvote it or choose it as the best answer.

And if someone down the road comes up with an answer that I like better, it is WB policy that I can choose to give the green checkmark to that answer instead of the one I originally chose.

Sorry for spamming, I've been typing that out of a while, and wanted to keep it together if possible :)

Morning everyone.

2:49 PM

morning @James

@AndyD273 I think I disagree that there's no right answer. A good answer should be complete, that is it should give you all the possibilities you could ever need based on your question. That's why 'too many possible answers' is a bad thing, because no one answer could cover them all

morning @James

Hows it goin this morning? I see the scope debate continues.

recently I've been finding more and more grey-area cases, it's making me realize just how important it is to get this locked down

I used to think I knew what was on-topic and just had to convince everyone else, now even I don't know

@DaaaahWhoosh When I say no right answer, I mean an answer that will work in the bounds of hard-science. There can be a lot of good, complete, believable answers, all of which won't work in real life.

@DaaaahWhoosh This reminds me of a question from last week where the OP asked if we could make a programmatically defined legal system. Many people said we couldn't. I asked the same question to some of my friends in law school and they said it definitely couldn't be done. Strictly defining what is and what is not legit for WB seems like endless debate fodder.

2:56 PM

I know the developers in the crowd are clamoring for a black and white line in the sand on the scope question...but I gotta say its never going to happen

@James Dear sir, I am an exception to that statement. I don't think we'll ever completely nail down what is and what isn't....but it's really fun to debate it :)

If I was being snarky today I'd suggest that the people that don't like off topic questions should just stick to questions that are tagged hard-science and leave the rest of us to enjoy what we want to :D

@Green lol, my apologies for generalizing.

@AndyD273 so instead you're just being hypothetically snarky?

@James No worries :)

@DaaaahWhoosh The distinction is real!

2:59 PM

@DaaaahWhoosh Right. I'm a very nice, civil person who would never actually do something like that

...but the cake is a lie.

gotta meeting

So I liked this question...

6

Q: Are races necessarily diverse?

My experience shows that some people dislike when a certain world has monolithic races (meaning one culture, language, empire or purpose unifies all of its members), claiming it's not realistic, judging from humankind. Since it's not obvious, I ask: what leads to monolithic races, and what to di...

science-based culture races

what makes people think it is opinion based?

I would argue my answer is pretty objective.

I liked that one too, I almost answered it... but then didn't, I guess

it's a yes or no and explain question, I think it's just fine

races aren't necessarily diverse, diversity grows in inverse proportion to technological advancement and proximity

it's like evolution, only faster

@James, when deciding on VTC for a question, I only read the question, not the answers.

3:03 PM

@James I think the core idea of this question is fascinating. However, as fragged, it's not a good WB question.

@James I was sad when you wrote a better answer than mine :P

@AndyD273 That's not helpful though. If I'm looking at a question and have 6 possible answers in my head I need to be able to rate which of those 6 is the best fit as an answer and write down just that one.

@James, what does a "monolithic species" mean?

aren't species by definition monolithic?

not at all. Humans are one species and not monolithic

we do like monoliths though

3:07 PM

@TimB Then the monolithic description applies to culture, not any biological definition.

@DaaaahWhoosh all hail the Monolith!

the problem is that, as I understand it, races refer to your typical humans, dwarves, elves, etc. Since those are inherently linked to a world, it is possible to make a race monolithic. Or not at all. It's all depending on many factors like environment, size, etc. As such it cannot be answered, IMHO.

@bilbo_pingouin I think it's pretty difficult to make a race/people monolithic

@AndreiROM 20 people race

they would have to be incredibly dull, or at the very least restricted to a very, very tiny area

3:08 PM

@DaaaahWhoosh I think that's because monolithic cultures are tractable.

Are we getting an upgrade right now on the site?

since I just saw 'read-only' mode.

humans are not monolithic... but give it a few thousands years of globalisation... and we'll see where we stand?

@bowlturner indeed... just started now

I guess we are

humans are way more monolithic now than they used to be

does anyone know what changes are coming? new privileges or site design?

@bowlturner neither one sounds good to me, I don't have 10k and I wanted to see adjustments to the design

3:11 PM

@bowlturner just tried 3dprinting.stackexchange.com and they are the same

so I think an upgrade of the SE DB...

@DaaaahWhoosh Why do you figure? How do you even measure something like that?

@bilbo_pingouin but woodworking is just fine

@Green I think the problem in the question is tied to this. Just because we are too lazy to care about the difference doesn't mean it is there. Ask a redneck about muslims and you will see what I mean.

@DaaaahWhoosh i can't agree with that statement

@MikeL. Average distance to a McDonald's

3:12 PM

@Green How do you think that? Humans are very diverse. And I don't just mean socially

@DaaaahWhoosh Bahahahahahahaha

@bowlturner ok... we're back anyhow...

@DaaaahWhoosh I'm Romanian, and I have lived in Canada since my teen years. I have travelled to western europe, the US, etc. A lot of cultures are very similar, yet soooo different.

@bowlturner We haven't seen any updates in a while.

site design and priv levels happen at the same time

3:13 PM

@AndreiROM And yet his point stands they are more similar now than in the past.

that's the only real change left, we've already graduated and had elections

and yet some were questionning the opinion-based closing of that question...? ;-)

@James only certain aspect, my friend

@TimB I guess I don't have a great idea of what a monolithic species means in reality. I know what a monolithic culture looks like (kind of, I think). At what point does a diverse species (like h. sapiens) cease to be biologically monolithic?

we are definitely able to relate to one another better .. we can share aspects of our culture online, and have everyone read about it, etc.

but when you go from Canada to Romania, you'll get a shock

even from Canada to Amsterdam the culture differences were significant

3:18 PM

@AndreiROM But if you weren't from earth they would all be so alien as to make newcomers feel they are all one...that was my argument at least.

I guess here's a good way to test it: is Internet culture monolithic?

is there a single culture on the Internet, or are there multiple?

and, I guess, what is culture?

exactly... what does culture mean

do we have a different culture because we listen to different music? Or do we have the same culture because we listen to music?

yeah... maybe nowadays we have more cultures because we've given people the freedom to disagree with one another and do what makes them happy

@TimB should we specify: "asking for names" as risk factors, or is that so clearly OT, that it does not need to be mentioned in such discussion?

Ahhh, good old culture shocks

I have them every single time I leave Czech Republic

3:25 PM

@DaaaahWhoosh Most of us will live very similar lifes. Having similar jobs, even if we are from different parts of the world. Yes, maybe I listen to children's songs, and you listen to death metal. But does that make us really different? Or the fact that we are free to listen to what we want, accepting/tolerating/ignoring the others make us belonging to the same culture?

@PavelJanicek try that in the year 1150 ;-)

@bilbo_pingouin Then you had culture shock when you left small town

pretty much

give it a few hundred years more, and to get some culture shock, you might need to take the next ship to Betelgeuse...

@bilbo_pingouin Back then, if you had the means to travel, you spoke German and were able to rub shoulders with nobility, or at least with burghers. You'd find your own kind most everywhere you'd be able to go.

And you wouldn't see people with a significantly different skin tone closer than maybe Venice.

Imagine this: in German office of my company, there is stack of snacks (freely available), with note: One snack, one euro. And small piggy bank. That would NEVER work in CZ

And I call that different culture

@PavelJanicek Yep, the snacks, the piggy bank and the note would get stolen within the hour.

3:30 PM

@MikeL. and if you go from holiday-Inn to airports and back to hotels... you might go to many places in the world without having a real culture shock these days...

@bilbo_pingouin +1 death metal.

@PavelJanicek that is called the "honor system". It was actually experimented with in America. It was found that the higher up the corporate ladder people are, the less likely they are to pay the dollar, whereas normal working people would pay

but I agree, this wouldn't work in Romania either. The whole post-communism (or simply communism) mentality has affected society deeply

(that mentality being: take what you can, when you can)

In Czech, we had communist-era saying: Who does not steal, steals from his family

@MikeL. the note would get left behind with a profanity written on it (in Romania)

@PavelJanicek same mentality in Romania. In my grandparent's village the telephone cable has been stolen so many times that the company has refused to replace it. Now you either buy a cell phone or you have no phone

the whole idea of "having phones in the village benefits us all" is lost on some people

I think its the "us vs them" mentality, where "us" is just your close family

3:38 PM

@PavelJanicek some cultures have a tribal, or familial mentality. Eastern Europe is def more on the Familial end of the scale

Italians/Spanish are huge on Familial trust

but in Romania, for example, communism has really destroyed the trust between people, even within the Familial system

so now you have a whole country of people who are inherently distrustful, hateful, and spiteful of one another, and especially the governemnt

obviously, Romanians are not all crazy assholes, but you can see the damage that communism did in many attitudes and behaviors

@bilbo_pingouin I don't know. Names can be very important to worldbuilding - but equally the question needs to be the right question. Techniques for naming for example is on topic. Name my poodle probably is not

@AndreiROM seems kinda like communism had the opposite of the intended effect

@AndreiROM Sounds depressing. I stayed a hotel once that had a whole shop on the honour system. Food, snacks, anything you needed while staying there. Take what you need drop the money into a slot. Nothing super high value of course but some of the stuff was 5$

@DaaaahWhoosh communism was a cluster fuck, pardon my french

@AndreiROM Hello there, comrade.

3:44 PM

@TimB it's very interesting to me as a Romanian-Canadian to travel back home

<< Czechoslovak

I have people stare at me because I'm too polite

and after a few weeks I start getting pissed off at people's attitudes, and I realize just how "Canadian" i've become

Americans are pretty polite too, despite what people say

still love/miss Romania, but I don't know if I could live there again

yeah, americans tend to be brash/noisy but polite enough with it

3:46 PM

@DaaaahWhoosh yea, I was kinda afraid the first time I traveled down south. But people in NY were so helpful to a poor, lost Canadian. Honestly, it was a great experience.

I was in a store in Denvor once and I heard someone say "excuse me sir, do you work here". ... in the UK that'd not have been phrased anything like as politely :D

@TimB That is a good point, but even if the question is super focused you still have to make a judgement call on which one, in your opinion, is the strongest, and then maybe make adjustments based on feedback. And even if you come up with the best answer out of all of them, that doesn't mean the OP is going to choose it.

@MikeL. Salutari, tovarase

As someone that uses both exchanges, I think we're doing WB a disservice by comparing it to SO.

@MikeL. or better yet: Salutări tovarășe

3:50 PM

@AndreiROM Right, sorry. Čest práci, soudruhu!

@MikeL. i love Google translate :P

@AndreiROM I believe we used to have a translation bot here; not sure what happened to it.

Whetever happened to that bot that was being developed a few weeks ago?

@AndyD273 developed sentience, flew away

@DaaaahWhoosh Well, it seemed pleasant enough. I'm sure there won't be any unfortunate consequences

As long as our new bot overlord keeps serving random XKCD's, I think we'll be ok. And I'm totally not just saying that to score brownie points!

3:57 PM

@AndyD273 how do we know you're not the bot?

trying to put us at ease

then WHAM, global domination

I dropped a bird and I didn't hear it hit bottom.

Anders Gustafson

I voted to have the question reopened I saw that it had been edited to be about planets making it about world building. The question has been reopened.

See, I'm harmless :D

@AndyD273 can't see it at work :(

They blocked XKCD? WHAT KIND OF MONSTERS DO YOU WORK FOR??? No worries comrade, there will be a reckoning when my time has come...
Wait, I mean, that sucks dude.

4:01 PM

@AndyD273 LOL. Thank you, bot-master

@AndreiROM BooO!!!!!

I also love how "comrade" seems to be the default way of addressing me now :P

@Green i know, right ?!?!?!

BTW the robot still runs, but just in another room

Worldbuilding's Robots

A room for Worldbuilders to play around with bots without anno...

@AndreiROM You are correct!

Mostly me and bilbo are playing with the robot there

4:03 PM

@PavelJanicek just don't let it develop any sadistic tendencies

Too late...

@PavelJanicek like casually using your and you're incorrectly

and saying "Trolling is a art"

but do not worry, since I am not English speaking, I do distinguish between your and you're correctly

@PavelJanicek Your crazy!

You're english is impeccable!

I have problems with lend/borrow and teach/learn because they translate to one word in a group

like to Czech

4:05 PM

you just confused the heck outta me

@PavelJanicek I can see how that would be confusing

@AndreiROM To confuse you even more: Fic a mabil unde peste a ic un cimitir!

Which should translate to "Do you know where there is cemetery"?

@PavelJanicek yea, well ... "peste" means fish

I had Romanian colleague and I told him to teach me (or learn me? :) ) the most unuseful Romanian sentence :D

Yeah, google translate didn't get that quite right: Be kind of a cemetery where more than

4:09 PM

@PavelJanicek I can see the teach/learn issue now

@PavelJanicek the most useful sentence would be "help", lol

or a swear, depending on who you ask :P

lol

I remembered a story I heard: One female was about to be raped. And all she remembered in the shock is, that she cannot scream "help!" because it is also very unuseful in Czech republic.

So, she tried to quickly remember what should she shout and she started to scream: "Hooray!"

Which confused the attacker so much that he ran away

@PavelJanicek I actually received the advice when I was little to yell "Fire, fire!" because people would be more likely to come to my aid rather than if I yell "help"

@PavelJanicek It's just so much easier with reflexive verbs, isn't it?:)

which didn't stop me boing mugged 4 times by the time I was 14

but things are better now. The gypsies all went to Paris and Rome

:D

4:12 PM

which is why us Romanians now have such a peachy reputation abroad

@AndreiROM I'm skeptical about that, wouldn't people tend to run away from a fire?

@MikeL. who knows? I never got to try it out, lol

@MikeL. The point is, people will at least look who is shouting

@MikeL. are you kidding? it's great entertainment!

but i do remember a story, where a young woman was raped and had her throat cut, while literally a hundred or more people could hear her yelling for help, and no one even called the police

4:13 PM

Crying "help" will shoo people away. Crying "Fire" will draw attention

@PavelJanicek i think that's the idea

@AndreiROM I think that story has grown a bit in the telling but it's based on real events

@AndreiROM wasn't that the event that made Rorschach start fighting crime?

@TimB well, it was on the news, and she got attacked basically at the entrance of an apartment building, so you can imagine how many people oculd hear through their windows

They did an experiment in the uk a while after that was in the news, had a girl start screaming near a busy street. Everywhere they tried it a bunch of people all went to see what was going on

as soon as one person turned towards the sound everyone else did too

4:15 PM

@DaaaahWhoosh wish he was Romanian, lol

@DaaaahWhoosh "I'm not locked in here with you, you're locked in here with me"

@TimB there was a time, when I was young, when the Gypsies were so many, and so dangerous, that regular police officers (just walking a regular beat in a neighborhood) were afraid to get involved, because they would be targeted by the Gypsy community and killed.

that's pretty bad

yup. Gypsies spin a good story about discrimination, but they were insanely dangerous

@AndreiROM Not something you'd want to mention around Californians, I find.

4:16 PM

anyway, what ended up happening is that the Jandarmes were deployed in the city

a step up from police, kinda paramilitary, with covered faces, and big freakin' truncheons

the parks were made safe in less than half a year

the downside is the obvious discrimination: any gypsy caught by them was basically dead meat / ended up in the hospital

but when you push people far enough .... you get what you have coming

@MikeL. how come? too liberal ?

Too racist I would guess

@PavelJanicek yea, there's a big disconnect between what a Romanian would find racist, and a Canadian

cultural differences! maybe I should update my answer to that question :P

@AndreiROM Saying that might get you labeled a racist, which is social suicide.

@MikeL. pretty much the same in good ol' liberal ontario

The PC brigade does not appreciate dissenting opinions and will browbeat and shame you into obscurity and make you reviled for questioning the company line

4:21 PM

lol

@James I so hate the PC crap.

@James Google "Why This Radical Leftist Is Disillusioned by Leftist Culture"

it's an article that identifies a lot of what's wrong with the developing liberal culture

I like to joke around a bit by saying, whenever somebody says something like "(wo)men do/are", even about the most trivial things, "That's sexist.". In Prague, nobody bats an eye, when I blurted it out in California, the poor guy started apologising profoundly and explaining that he didn't mean it like that. I was taken aback, I have to say.

@MikeL. it's gone way too far

and it carries potentially severe social consequences

@MikeL. Use "non-English" excuse :)

4:23 PM

you can become a pariah, even be fired from your job

So you should be allowed to make sweeping generalisations about people you don't even know without anyone being offended?

@TimB no, but freedom of speech should be respected even in regards to things we don't like to hear

But then someone has right to tell you that was racist/sexist/whateverist :)

Meh. That's like idiots asking me to respect their opinions. I'll respect your opinion when it's based on evidence and shows some thought process has happened.

3

@TimB People can get offended all they like, for all I care. I just don't believe it should be considered anathema to make even the most trivial observations.

4:25 PM

Trivial obsevations made on small number of items is always wrong :)

There has recently been a discussion on one of the forums I attend on whether there should be sex-based categories in HEMA competitions. When people refuse that on the grounds that it's morally wrong to make generalisations like "women have pound for pount approximately 30% less upper body strength", that's when I believe it's gone too far.

@AndreiROM Freedom of speech. Interesting. So where do you draw the line between for example harassing someone online until they commit suicide and freedom of speech. Do the bullies "freedom of speech" right outweigh someone else's right not to be harrassed?

@MikeL. I have to agree with that

@PavelJanicek Almost always, yes. There is, however, a place for generalisations, so long as it's understood that generalisations only describe groups of people in aggregate rather than individuals.

@TimB well, harassment is something else. Don't get me wrong, generally speaking I agree with you

4:29 PM

@MikeL. And do they? How do you know? How did you find out?

@PavelJanicek I did not, a study was cited that measured that.

I think we can all agree that things get complicated very quickly when discussing harassment / sexism / etc

maybe it'd be better to have weight classes rather than dividing based on sex...

@TimB There is a line that can be crossed. It's the difference between walking up to someone on the street and asking the time, or walking up to someone on the street and asking for their wallet.

however, I think we can also agree that when you get into the whole "microagression" and other such things society has gone too far

4:31 PM

@DaaaahWhoosh Doesn't help. Notice that I said "pound for pound".

@MikeL. Oh, right, I somehow thought you were being metaphorical

@DaaaahWhoosh Yeah, well, that's why it's a problem. If it was just weight, it would be easy:)

@MikeL. And do the women want to be in different group?

While I agree that harassment is wrong, I also have to say that if the internet isn't being nice to you and your response is to ill yourself you are not terribly well adjusted. Here's a pointer in that situation, don't go places where people make you feel bad.

@TimB And there are clear lines about freedom of speech. Yelling Fire in a crowded theater is not protected speech.

4:32 PM

@James Agreed.

@James Also, seek help.

@AndyD273 Protected speech also doesn't mean you can't be brow beat for your opinions it simply means you can't be arrested for what you say by the government.

@PavelJanicek Many do, yes. There's an advantage in physical strength and reach that means that the fight is no longer really a test of skill and technique.

Which kinda defeats the point.

@James But if I say something that's not popular, and you brow beat me in a harassing way, possibly destroying my life, who's worse?

I think the general problem is that people are so different; saying something sexist could mean vastly different things to the people you were being sexist too, and even then there are people who may or may not even belong to that sex based on other people's definitions

4:36 PM

If I were to say something actually sexist in an off the cuff remark, and you decide to destroy my life, reputation, livelyhood, etc, then that is wrong, evil, and worse than some sexist ass spouting his opinion into the air.

@DaaaahWhoosh Maybe we could just accept that prejudice is bad in general (rather than considering statements on their level of -ism) and that we should approach people as people. But that's too hard to make into a policy.

Especially when sometimes your prejudice is based on your experience

Example of AndreiRom: He got mugged several times by gypsies. I doubt he will approach gypsy the same as any other person...

@PavelJanicek Well, yes, the flip side is that it's impossible to "not assume anything", and people need to not get offended and indignant when something is assumed about them without ill intent.

Which is hard, when you get approached as "A stealer" in some parts of Germany simply because too many Czechs did steal there before...\

Especially when you see "ČEŠI, NEKRÁST TADY" signs

The above reads: "Czechs, do not steal here"

@PavelJanicek very good example. I don't

@PavelJanicek Romanians get treated similarly, sadly

4:45 PM

And you know why. It is prejudice based on past experience

And you can fight it only by behaving super nice to show that not all Czechs/Romanians are stealers

Prejudice and stereotype exist for a reason. That's not to say they are ok. But they aren't just pulled out of thin air either.

@PavelJanicek Yeah, it sucks. But flipping out and calling all Germans Nazis isn't going to help; the only way to break a stereotype is by example.

Exactly

@PavelJanicek It's going to take forming relationships to some extent to fix the problem. "There may be bad Czechs, but that guy, he's really decent, so they aren't all bad"

@James Easier said than done. In the facebook bullying cases it all tends to happen in school and then spill over onto the internet when people go home with the bullies following them home. And it's all well and good to say "just don't go on facebook" but when all your friends are on facebook you either face the bullies or lose touch with your friends. You're screwed either way.

4:50 PM

It doesn't help that some stereotypes help to continue perpetrating themselves. If I'm treated as a thief every where I go, I might as well learn to steal...

@TimB I can't say that I agree...at least not completely. In the end (and this has become seriously evident now that I have kids) it all comes down to parenting.

@TimB In those situations it isn't free speech. Free speech means I can say stuff, but I can't follow you down the street shouting it at you, that's harrasment. That crosses a line. Following you home on facebook is harrasment and crosses that line, and should be dealt with appropriately. That could be talking to the parents in some cases, blocking them from facebook for a while, or even going full legal in extreme cases.

the whole FB harassment aspect is very tricky

@TimB I lost touch with my friends, not all that bad as far as I can tell

you hear of so many teen suicides after a poor decision makes them the laughing stock of the school, etc

4:55 PM

yep

but is that a failure of parenting? society? personal character?

Too many parents teach their children that they are perfect little unique snowflakes and when confronted with the reality that that is not the case some can't deal with it... You are not perfect, you do make mistakes and you will be disappointed during the course of your life. Coping skills are important.

I even been on funeral of one of my online friends who commited suicide at age 21

was that teen simply "off his rocker" for lack of a better word ?

@James this is critical

@PavelJanicek sorry to hear

This, in my opinion, is the leading (but not only) source of mass shootings we have seen in schools in the last years. Shooting people who make fun of you is not ok. Ever. Nor is it ok to shoot people you disagree with. Ever.

4:59 PM

Dunno, I don't have much sympathy for bullies who get shot. The problem is the collateral damage.

@James If they disagree with you on whether or not you deserve to be murdered, then it might be ok.

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