The Factory Floor - 2016-02-23

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3:02 AM

Anyone here good enough with SQL to help me with a query? I want to to search for a list of users, sorted by those closest to a 1:1 upvote/downvote ratio. (I want to add some more statistics to my answer to meta.worldbuilding.stackexchange.com/questions/3242/…)

But I can't figure out how to do the GROUP BY with an equation

Scratch that, I figured it out using ABS!

4 hours later…

6:48 AM

@Aify, you should consider giving a title for your queries... that save them without getting in the edit more. Nevertheless, I made a small variation of yours... data.stackexchange.com/worldbuilding/query/440016/… you might find it interesting :)

and do note, that as a SQL user, I am close to a newly born baby :)

which, by the way, is an interesting stat. Only 16 users are below the 10:1 ratio among those who voted more than 200 times. And we see that some users, although they don't spend much time writing questions and answers, they do voting :)

And we learn that @TimB is by far the highest voter of WB, but with a ratio of 173:1, not precisely an active downvoter ;-)

7:36 AM

and according to data.stackexchange.com/worldbuilding/query/440033/… the average is 22:1

3 hours later…

10:38 AM

@bilbo_pingouin Yeah if I don't like something I tend to just move on. Normally if it's bad enough to downvote it's bad enough to close.

2 hours later…

Worldbuilding Meta

1:06 PM

0

Q: Naming our planet

We already have Naming our lady and Naming our robot. I think we should give the planet (planets and moons) a name! These are the rules: one name for one planet/moon, but if someone wants to give a name to every planet and moon in the picture, more names can be suggested (specifying which moo...

By the way, shouldn't the current discussion be only about the plot/individual/character-based risk factor? Meaning that for the sake of that discussion, ON-TOPIC and OFF-TOPIC are only about that part in particular? IG and too-broad are other risks factors... — bilbo_pingouin 43 secs ago

1:41 PM

@bilbo_pingouin That's a lot of downvotes. Wow.

@Green I don't know from where I got that idea, but I somehow remember that a 10:1 ratio is quite healthy...

I've got almost 100:1....so does that mean I'm super duper healthy?

no, it means you don't downvote enough... ;)

@Aify and @Vincent do most of WB's downvoting ^^

Worldbuilding Meta

2:05 PM

0

Q: Am I missing a badge?

I happened to glance at my progress towards the various badges yesterday and noticed something peculiar. My current progress for Epic is marked as 2/50. Epic states that it is for reaching the 200 daily limit 50 times. However, Mortarboard is awarded for reaching the 200 daily limit, and I only h...

discussion badges

@bilbo_pingouin Fair assessment. I'll get right on that.

2:20 PM

Apparently I've only given 2 downvotes... I wonder what they were for

I find it hard to downvote on this site, the downvote-worthy posts are either by new users who don't know any better, or old users who make me wonder if I'm doing something wrong by thinking they deserve a downvote

and users in between remind me of myself, so I'd feel bad downvoting my brethren

I only tend to downvote on questions I think are just straight bad. OPs with quality problems I vote to close/put on hold.

@Green So whats the difference between low quality and bad?

Although, there are a punch of questions where I just find them annoying and move on.

Bad is where the premise of the question is poor. These are just above the threshold of "That's the stupidest thing I've heard all day". Low quality questions have problems with being too broad, idea generation...the usual characteristics that will get a question placed on hold.

That's my default route. If a question isn't good and not worth my time I just move on. If it's a new user I'll usually leave a comment on what I think is wrong with the question and then move on.

1 hour later…

3:30 PM

I have been wondering, though, should we be downvoting/closing stupid questions? I mean, if it's a well-formed question, but the asker just knows very little about what they're asking, then I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing

@DaaaahWhoosh That's a very andhypiest point of view there. I never expected you to be so enlightened ;)

@DaaaahWhoosh If someone has a well formed question but has failed to basic research I'm going to down vote it.

I do agree though. Bad questions will sink away, and there is the off chance that while you think the question is bad, someone else may get it and have an answer

and that offers chances for reversal badges ;-)

I'd be ok with a kind of waiting period before closing. Maybe not allow close votes before 24 hours, so that it would force people to leave constructive comments to allow the person to fix their question

3:39 PM

The point of close votes is to stop answers from appearing before the question can be fixed.

@AndyD273 a question gets on hold... not closed

and thus breaking the answers

it is closed when it stays on-hold for a while

As is, you don't have to give a reason for a down vote or a close vote, and often people don't give a reason, which is worse than useless

4:08 PM

I edited a question and an answer on an older post. but the answer didn't seem to count toward my Archaeology badge.

4:31 PM

Do they sometimes take a little while to register?

4:47 PM

Maybe? But I'm pretty sure they usually show up within a few minutes, and it still isn't showing up. Unless it's because I answered the question in between the two edits? 'activating' it?

5:08 PM

15

A: Why have I not received the archaeologist badge?

I think this badge needs a lot more clarification from the devs. The description from the list of all badges simply says: Archaeologist silver; awarded once; same family as Excavator (bronze) Edited 100 posts that were inactive for at least 6 months Edits to your own posts do not ...

haven't read it, but this looks like it may have answers

No, only possibilities.

well, it does link to an answer that seems to imply that answering a question does activate it

Ah, so I should have edited both BEFORE I answered the question.

note for future edits.

@bowlturner You just couldn't wait, could you? ;P

no. Though with as little attention the whole question is getting since I did the edits and the answer, I could have easily waited. Only one person other than me has upvoted anything on that question. :(

5:15 PM

O.o @bilbo_pingouin your new query doesn't include people with 0 downvotes

5:27 PM

And yea, I downvote more heavily compared to other users because downvote worthy =/= close worthy to me - I DV when it's bad, or needs fixing (I usually remove the DV if it gets fixed), has no research/work involved (eg: sounds like someone just threw it together off the top of their head), or I really don't like the question.

I suppose that may be because I come from the SO community mindset though, where DV's are more commonly used.

Also, @AndyD273 often, if the question is truly bad enough (or if someone has already said why the question is bad in the comments) then I won't provide a reason for the close vote. If the question is bad enough that 5 of us close it, a close reason will show up when the votes pass.

And I DV to try and stop people from answering questions that are off topic, but since I'm basically the only person who's doing this and trying to stop those answers from coming up, I'm not making much of an effect :(

@Aify Well, down-voting doesn't stop people from answering though, unless you mean psychologically; "this question has 2 DV so maybe I should stay away".

Even once these issues get hammered out, what is "too broad" or "off topic" is still going to be opinion based. Like the jet butt question that you thought was too broad, and Tim thought was ok

@AndyD273 There may still be grey areas, but the idea is to make there be less of them

I'm fine with letting grey-area questions through as long as most bad questions are definitively- er, black? White?

@AndyD273 That's exactly what I mean, the psychological aspect - at least, it works on StackOverflow

@DaaaahWhoosh Agreed, which is why we're having these discussions.

I usually don't touch the grey area ones that are extremely popular

But it's like I said in my comment for Tim - just because we have a precedence of letting through bad questions doesn't mean we should continue doing so

5:39 PM

@Aify I think this is pretty common, but it's a big problem. We're essentially letting the uneducated masses determine what's in-scope

anyone can upvote, but not everyone can VTC (or downvote, I think?)

Which is why I don't hold back on the downvotes at all - I think we need to tighten up a bit and educate said masses

Anyone can DV past 100 rep, IIRC

VTC is 1k+, I think

Worldbuilding Meta

1

Q: Popping balloons (Burnination request)

I propose that we Burninate the balloon-whales tag. As of the current posting, there is 1 question using that tag. I think balloon-whales is too specific a tag for WB. A combination of flight + creature-design would cover any flying animal (and thus any use of this tag), while the description ...

discussion specific-tag

6:03 PM

@DaaaahWhoosh "Those filthy peasants don't know what's good for them. That's why those of us with refined breeding need to keep them in their place..."

@AndyD273 Yeah, I've been growing ever more worried about how much I like the idea of benevolent dictatorship

but it's not like they'll be uneducated for long; they'll either learn from our example or leave

@DaaaahWhoosh At least I haven't seen you suggesting that all questions should be screened before being posted.

I don't see that we're gaining anything by making an enviroment that encourages them to leave

@AndyD273 have you by any chance seen the movie Whiplash?

No, hadn't even heard of it. Doesn't look like something I'd willingly sit down and watch.

eh, I liked it, basically the idea of the movie was that there was this guy who was mean to people because he believed that the best people wouldn't have pushed themselves to be the best unless people were mean to them

if we just tell new users they're doing a good job even when we think they can do better, they'll never have any reason to actually do better

and if we think they can do better and they can't, maybe they should leave

6:17 PM

There might be something to that, but natural talent, work ethic, temperament, and probably opportunities provided have a lot more to do with it than if someone was mean to them.
There's a fine line between pushing someone to do better, and crushing their spirit

@AndyD273 now that is definitely the truth. And the main problem with the idea

I'm not saying we should artificially pump them up by any means

oh, right, someone else was saying that though

I think I'm merging my arguments here

OK. I'm not from the participant awards camp

@DaaaahWhoosh I agree that they should learn from our example or leave

but

the problem is that a lot of us are setting a bad example

6:22 PM

Putting up a question and getting little to no response other than comments saying "Hey this question is not clear. What are you even asking?" is one way to educate them.

Then explain why I constantly see high rep users answering bad questions

Instead of putting those comments down

Maybe it's that the question being bad is a personal opinion, and while you might not like it, someone else might get inspired to come up with a good answer.

Hang on, let me point you to some proof

As one possibility

7

Q: Should we answer off-topic questions?

Moments ago, I saw this: The question this was posted on is 100% opinion based + idea generation, thus making it clearly off topic. Should we answer off-topic questions (before they're put on hold/closed) if we know that they're off-topic? I bring this up because while a new user may rush to an...

discussion on-topic

Here is someone encouraging bad practice - user in question had 1k+ rep, so he had the ability to VTC at the time

The user in the comments had encouraged the posting of a question that even he had deemed off topic, and told OP that he had about half an hour to get an answer before it gets closed. That, to me, is unacceptable and completely upsets the system we want to have in place

Not only did the user answer the bad question, he then VTC'd it (which to me looks very weird)

6:28 PM

I think that comment was silly and not constructive or helpful to the OP. It would have been much more useful to say "This question is off-topic and not right for here. Here is a suggestion to fix it and keep it from getting closed."

I didn't put a suggestion to fix it because I didn't know how to fix it - but that's beside the point; the point is that we high rep users are the problem

We're the ones setting a bad example

Often the difference from off topic and on topic is switching the question around and changing it a bit.

So letting them "learn from our example" is bad

Yes, that was a bad example, but how often do people put something that blatant up?

Blatantly bad questions? Too often.

High rep users answering said questions? Also too often.

6:32 PM

I mean the "you have an hour to get answers" part.

High rep users stating something like that? Not often, but irrelevant, because the point is that we're setting a bad example

yeah, it's terrifying how the high-rep users don't seem to agree on basic site scope. We need a unified front, or no one will end up happy

^

I don't think that'll ever happen

More mortifying to me is that the high rep users answer said questions

6:33 PM

Even the mini debate about the air propelled question that Aify and TimB had earlier about if the question was bad

High Rep users answering bad questions sets the precedence for posting bad questions and still get answers

I think we should only answer questions about dairy products.

Like I said in that question, "Just because we've had broader creature design questions doesn't mean they were all on topic - (And seeing as 3 of my top questions are creature design, I may be biased since I use those as my standard for reference to on/off-topic). Basically, my point is that a precedence of having previous broader questions during which the site scope hasn't been fully defined doesn't give reason to allow off-topic questions onto the site now."

@Samuel I'm sorry, those questions belong over in Dairy SE

@Samuel hi and I agree with Andy on this one lol

6:35 PM

@Samuel I think we can all agree you're wrong :D

Thanks for lightening the mood tho ;)

I am the 1%, that means I make the rules.

Actually I am the 0.19%.

Ah, but I am 5%, and that's a bigger number!

Hmmm... touché

@Aify We're a little different than SO, since over there you can judge a question as bad based on the rules laid out in the language the question is about. It's a little harder in WB because we can range from hard science all the way to magical high fantasy with no rules at all. It's not impossible to do, it just provides a lot more room for grey areas.

6:45 PM

I know, but here the problem is more that the rules that have been laid out are not clear

Also, what do you guys think about burninating Balloon-whales?

I'm biased because I put it in there for the creature design challenge... I wouldn't really care that much if it went away, but there might be a way to fix it to where it fits better.

I'm not for keeping Balloon-Whales, but I wouldn't suggest actively removing it.

Plus it would be fun to get a Balloon-Whales tag medal.

Technically, it's been a tag in this chat room for a long long time.

I think balloon-whales was created as a joke, both here and on the site. I don't think it really belongs on the site, but I also don't see the benefit of removing it

@Aify, you tried dividing by 0 recently? ;-)

and I otherwise agree that we should DV more. Close and not answer off-topic quedtions.

However a bad question can be well answered, as long as it should not be closed...

that's what the DV are there for...

7:02 PM

@bilbo_pingouin Come again?

(sorry, I'm on my phone...) if a questin is OT, too broad, opinion-based, etc. it should be closed. High rep users should waste time answering them...

However if the question is badly formed, lack research, etc. they can have an answer... a goid one from any user.. but should be DVed

goid -> good

I think you missed a 'not'

"High rep users should waste time"

indeed... i'll be back when i get a decent keyboard... (^_^!)

@TimB I've added a couple more examples to your Character Based meta post

7:33 PM

@DaaaahWhoosh Thanks, that'll help :)

I just wish I could come up with some good on-topic/off-topic reasons

it's harder than it seems

Random thought... Why are some bad questions so popular? If they are so bad and off topic (etc) why do they see such high interest with so many views, good answers, etc?

Clickbait Hot Network Questions

my question with 150 upvotes and 15k views was on HNQ for over a week

generally they aren't bad - they're well written and interesting

So they only get that response because they pull in people from other exchanges

?

7:40 PM

the question is whether they are worldbuilding

well they must get a positive response here to start with

so it's not just that

I think there's a disagreement between people who want SERIOUS WORLDBUILDING ONLY and people who want to have a bit of fun sometimes :)

@TimB Is that what's happening? ;)

@TimB I like to have fun... it gives me something to strangle when I get bored

but really, this site reminds me of those museum-like things that try to teach science to kids

I don't know what they're called, but I remember as a kid I always disliked those kids who'd sprint around the place, pushing all the buttons just to see what happened, learning absolutely nothing

Back on topic though, if a question is well written, well thought out, and interesting enough to get a lot of people to come up with good high quality answers, is it really a bad question even if it strays a little outside the original boundaries of the site?

@DaaaahWhoosh But then you have the older kids and adults going around, pushing the same buttons, and learning a lot.

It doesn't mean the button is bad, just that some people aren't in the right mind set

@AndyD273 Original boundaries no, but we do need to decide where the boundaries are now

@AndyD273 No, the button is great, it does cool things, but we can't let just anyone push it. Let's reel in the unruly ones, so the people who're there to learn don't get turned away

7:47 PM

@TimB which is why I'm contributing to the discussion :)

I guess that's what I'm getting at, no matter which way we go people will find our site, look at it, and then never come back. I want those people to be less good than the people who stay.

@DaaaahWhoosh So in essence the whooshist view you are proposing is a mature adult only WB, without those noisy kids running around all over the place :D

@AndyD273 Yep. Now that I'm making my own money, I've turned into an old person :(

I try to stay young at heart personally

yeah, I'm finding out I might need to put more work into it

if I don't watch out, pretty soon I'm going to want children...

7:54 PM

@DaaaahWhoosh I have a few. They can be stinkers, but they can also be a lot of fun.

The cheers when Vader threw the Emperor down the shaft was great.

And youngest really seems to like staying up and watching me play Fallout.

@AndyD273 it's probably more interesting than a bedtime story

She just really really hates going to bed, and she knows daddy will let her stay up a few more minutes if she asks to watch me play in a cute way.

8:15 PM

@TimB I'm editing some parts within the thread of individual/character-based risk... any opinion on it?

Jeez, the Worldbuilding database takes a while to download...

@bilbo_pingouin Doing too many things at once to look right now :)

I might try a different approach though, I don't think that one is really working how I'd hoped...although at least people are starting to do discussions now

8:43 PM

@TimB I think probably the only way we'll get good discussion is if we all plan to meet in chat at the same time and talk it out

but since time zones and work exist, I don't see that happening

yeah time zones are hard...

the problem is that we could set up a google doc to discuss that at our leisure time...

but that takes the risk of having only a few users participating

9:05 PM

Is it possible to have a site wide message that all users get, like when elections are starting? Have it point to the discussion?

@AndyD273 It's in the engine, but it's not available for us to use, nor for mods to use. I'm not even sure devs can do it without rebuilding and redeploying the entire site.

9:18 PM

Ah, ok. Just thought it might be a useful way to let everyone know about it... But I can see having it locked down to avoid abuse.

9:44 PM

I gotta say, Apple Push Notification Service has probably the worst acronym

APNS?

It's technically an initialism if it's not pronounced as a word...

Urban dictionary just mention an APN... which isn't particularly brilliant... does it mean something else with the extra S, or you mean it's just the sound that is bad?

well, if you say all the letters individually, really fast, then yeah, it sounds kind of bad

@Samuel yeah, I guess it's an initialism then

but I don't know, maybe I'm just immature. Maybe other people can talk at length about APNS and not even break into a smile, but to me it was hard not to burst out laughing in the meeting

@DaaaahWhoosh A PeNiS ?

2

9:57 PM

yup

^ and that's the message I see in the sidebar...

I didn't even see that until you said it. Lol

There are a couple things that Apple isn't as great at... Software is one of them (iTunes & iPhoto for instance), and coming up with names for their dev tools is another area they could do better...

yeah... I just can't keep a straight face when people are discussing talking to APNS, and what happens when APNS goes down, etc

hehe

10:03 PM

@DaaaahWhoosh If the network disconnects has APNS been cut off?

3

@TimB I can't even stop laughing

then my work here is done

goodnight all

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Feb '1623

The Factory Floor

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