Coding Projects and Duga Heaven :)

GreyFox

5:00 PM

How many cards are you thinking of having for the beta/initial launch

Dagg Nabbit

that's a good question

I think the prototype should maybe even... hmmm how do I say this

like, not have any "special effects"

just have only what it needs to support the core mechanics

units, mana, etc

GreyFox

Agreed. Just to see the flow and work on balancing.

Keep it simple and functional.

Dagg Nabbit

yeah... obviously first release should have some cool spells / artifacts / units with special abilities

GreyFox

So, maybe 60 variations? That way there are a lot of options but it isn't overwhelming at first.

(Variations=cards, lol)

Dagg Nabbit

if the cards are fairly balanced it could work

if they keep getting better and better cards they can keep scrapping crappier cards

ex, you get a 2/2 with casting cost 2 and some ability, you scrap a 2/2 with similar casting cost without that ability

GreyFox

5:05 PM

Yeah, are you going to go with the standard rarity? (Common, Uncommon, Rare, Epic, Legendary)

Dagg Nabbit

probably yeah, that's a better way to put it

get a legendary, scrap a common

GreyFox

that's a good idea. Put a spin on a standard card that renders the other obsolete, but is a little more rare. Keeps the balance essentially in check if the powers aren't too crazy. The ability may need to raise the mana cost by 1 so there is a balance

Dagg Nabbit

right, that could work

or, you could have separate vaults for each rarity tier, but that seems like a mess

but it would help... once legendary vault is full, can only store new legendaries by scrapping old ones

GreyFox

Yeah, that could get over expansive for no reason. It's be better to keep it streamlined and just add a rarity filter if necessary.

Dagg Nabbit

i think so too

GreyFox

5:07 PM

But the thought of having to scrap a legendary is so sad. :( Haha. Especially if you have to figure out which one is more viable in your deck.

It could be stressful for people that are bad a decision making, haha.

Dagg Nabbit

that's when they pay up xD

nobody wants to scrap a legendary

bazola

so then is the idea that the players submit card ideas to somewhere, players can vote them up and down, a certain amount of reputation is required to submit cards, and then once approved the cards go into a database, then the players get packs of these cards somehow? is that summing it up correctly? the alternative would be that what the players get in "packs" and store in their vault are the actual abilities themselves

GreyFox

Hahaha, fair enough. I keep forgetting that you haven't played hearthstone, but there is another thing in there where you essentially break down cards into "dust" that can be used to craft other cards.

Dagg Nabbit

@bazola I'm not a big fan of that kind of tightly controlled situation

I'd think we have some guidelines for balance, let people make their own stuff like people can make their own campaign elements in DnD, give them an outlet to post them...

have some licensing agreement like SE maybe, and just take their ideas if they're good, giving them credit

bazola

from a programming standpoint though we have to have everything already programmed, or be prepared to program it after people suggest it and then balance it and implement it

Dagg Nabbit

5:12 PM

that's why the whole thing should work as a regular card game IMO

it shouldn't depend on a program, the program should just emulate the regular card game

bazola

where we just manually design all the cards rather than have them be player created and submitted?

Dagg Nabbit

sort of... we give the players an outlet for making suggestions, and if they're good, we can use them

or, we make the game moddable and let people build their own mods, and take the ones that are good

bazola

personally i think what is most interesting/innovative is having the players create the cards as part of the whole gameplay experience

Dagg Nabbit

true, it is

how well would something like Java work for that though, without them having to hack it all to pieces and write custom clients and servers and crap

bazola

if we are manually designing all the cards then its just another TCG

Phrancis

5:15 PM

Guys have you seen this design idea I wrote last night?

GreyFox

I think that's a strong aspect as well, but monitoring the balance is going to be difficult, unless there are templates. (2/2 creatue is this cost, but you choose it's type to fit in your deck and picture and ability that may or may not raise it's cost)

Dagg Nabbit

hmm maybe something like a C++ core with heavy Lua scripting could support it

that's the thing... if you give card creators an API that just lets them do whatever, you need a way to balance it

bazola

the balancing that @SimonAndréForsberg suggested would be to have players need reputation to submit cards, and can vote cards up or down

Dagg Nabbit

ehhh

look at SO

crap gets voted up

good stuff gets ignored

skiwi

Wow, there's some people around here

Dagg Nabbit

5:17 PM

there has to be some kind of mechanic that makes sure it's balanced

bazola

@skiwi and a good game dev conversation going :)

Dagg Nabbit

if both players get their cards shuffled together, so you might get your card or the other guy gets it, that could possibly work

but it would have to be really clear what the card does or the player can just name it "mystery thing" and only he knows how to use it

bazola

hehe i could see a metagame deck where you pick a bunch of bad cards to screw up your opponent :)

skiwi

I think a chatroom is great for the initial conversations, but we're gonna need to head to a forum if we agree to something for structured conversations/ideas (not in realtime) :)

Dagg Nabbit

lol, yeah, bad cards that look good

@skiwi yeah I was thinking a wiki

Phrancis

5:19 PM

@skiwi welcome to the party :)

Simon André Forsberg

@DaggNabbit I don't know much C++, but one thing that makes things complex with C++ is the portability. It'd be hard to make the game for all platforms if doing C++, I think. I also think Java is powerful enough to make the game in.

skiwi

I can't keep up with all the convos here :P

Dagg Nabbit

Java is definitely powerful enough, I just don't know how moddable it is

Phrancis

@skiwi maybe we could do this on github ;)

Dagg Nabbit

although it could maybe have lots of scala hooks or something?

skiwi

5:20 PM

Also I heard that with Java you can nowadays just include the whole JRE in the download, it's gonna cost a few hundred MB's though

@DaggNabbit Moddable in what sense?

Dagg Nabbit

as in letting players create their own cards

Simon André Forsberg

@skiwi There is a StackExchange-similar freeware utility available: question2answer.org/install.php (written in PHP, but still...)

GreyFox

What does everyone think about a template idea. Where you can creat what you want but there are rules in place that determine the relative cost based on the abilities selected and the overall power/toughness. They get to pick everything but the cost of the card is determined by the rules already in place by the game itself.

skiwi

Can anyone give me a quick overview of what seems to be the main idea hanging around?

GreyFox

BRB in a sec. Tag me in any replies to that!

Simon André Forsberg

5:22 PM

@DaggNabbit very moddable. One word: Minecraft.

Dagg Nabbit

@GreyFox the thing is, how do you handle "abstract" abilities like "reshuffle your graveyard into your deck"

@SimonAndréForsberg that's only modabble because people completely remade the servers and clients from the ground up, by reverse engineering everything

skiwi

@DaggNabbit is it players, modders or developers that are going to implement them?

I know I had a great idea with @SimonAndréForsberg a few weeks ago about having a builder available in GUI form!

Simon André Forsberg

@DaggNabbit Yes, because the initial developers didn't write code clean enough (and apparently, writing a real Minecraft API takes ages for them).

Dagg Nabbit

@SimonAndréForsberg I'm just thinking it would be much simpler if the core were in C++ with a bunch of Lua hooks in C

Simon André Forsberg

@skiwi I think that's something like what we're aiming towards. Primarily it should be possible for users to create their own cards. Not sure about creating entire games or not.

Dagg Nabbit

5:25 PM

see, i think we should focus on the modder community

Simon André Forsberg

@DaggNabbit There are scripting languages that can be used for Java as well.

skiwi

I think modders can do great with GUI tools

they don't neccessarily need to go low level

Dagg Nabbit

not every player needs to create his own cards, but some modders will want to create whole entire thematic card sets

skiwi

Worst case you can dynamically load a Java class

but some more scripting-ish language such as Groovy should also be possible, or Scala

Dagg Nabbit

@SimonAndréForsberg yeah but nobody really uses scala, Lua is super accessible and is usually used for this kind of stuff

skiwi

5:26 PM

@DaggNabbit, what if a Lua to Scala/Groovy translator is used in backend?

Simon André Forsberg

33

Q: how can I embed lua in java?

is LuaJava a must for this? or can I embed lua into java without it?

Dagg Nabbit

hmmm that might actually work

skiwi

I don't expect anything really difficult

Dagg Nabbit

Lua is extremely small

skiwi

You are exposing the game object, a player object and the opponent object, and then someone can do whatever he wants with it?

Dagg Nabbit

5:27 PM

LuaJava? Sold.

2

skiwi

But let's take one step back

Do we want full customization?

I heard about some balancing, and algorithms, etc. earlier on?

Dagg Nabbit

I think if you leave it up to modders to do their balancing responsibly, it could work... after all it's up to players to use a mod or not

if the mod sucks, nobody uses it, no problem

now if you let each player do whatever they want you have big problems

you have to have one modder makes a mod, both players use the mod

skiwi

Yeah I'm a bit confused, so it's a full-blown mod then, and not a card integrated into the existing game?

Dagg Nabbit

I think it would have to be

If I can make whatever cards I want I'm either going to bend the rules somehow or be too limited for it to be interesting

skiwi

I don't know, it could be possible to have a system that tells you when a card is too overpowered, etc.

Dagg Nabbit

5:30 PM

unless

well

maybe the modders make things like "abilities" or "spells"

and they have a fixed cost

like a casting or upkeep cost or whatever, fixed by the modder

and the player can still make cards by setting attack/defense and some abilites

and then the casting/upkeep cost is determined from that

skiwi

I've got an additional idea for that

Say a monster has 1:3:3 atk:def:hp as ratios, that is what the modder specifies, and then it is up to the game to correctly balance it

GreyFox

You could always have the ability on cards if it gets too op that it cost 2 or 3 mana etc just to keep it on the field, that way you have something huge but it limits your other options

skiwi

The idea of the modder is to make a mob that can tank well, that will always happen with 1:3:3

Dagg Nabbit

@GreyFox that's what I was thinking with upkeep costs

skiwi

However if the game detects that the card is too OP, then it will scale it down

Dagg Nabbit

5:32 PM

idk if many games do it but it seems reasonable

skiwi

and upkeep sounds good as well

and we should still offer a "central modding channel", such that people have the ability to obtain the really awesome good-looking fun cards

instead of being stuck with 'crappy looking' cards they can make themselves

Dagg Nabbit

see this is where the paywall being "card slots" instead of packs or whatever really could help

the "vault," I'm starting to like that

Phrancis

@DaggNabbit I think a lot of the things like, your hand, your table, your graveyard, shuffle, all this would be super easy to write a sproc on database side and use player tables to hold the various cards. Just write transactions to move records between tables, that way you maintain ACID

skiwi

@Phrancis I'm afraid not that many people are real fans of databases :P

I can understand player cards needing to be stored somewhere

Simon André Forsberg

When @Phrancis say "table" I often think "class".

2

skiwi

5:37 PM

but things like handle, table, graveyard should be just the serving saving that

bazola

I think that we would have to predefine and balance a number of different abilities if we are going to code them into the game. we would have to change a lot to add an ability like "shuffle your graveyard into your hand" if we don't already have code written for such a thing. so we have to create all of the abilities and then balance their relationships

then let players combine them in interesting ways, then the algorithm would balance the costs versus what abilities they put on the cards, and those costs would be weighted based on the balancing we have already done. i don't see how we could have players actually create new abilities, ut that would be cool if we could find out a wayb

Matt Giltaji

@Phrancis i would think you'd just put some status flags rather than moving records around... card in hand, card in graveyard, card in deck, etc

skiwi

@bazola I think you're spot on there, things like "hand.shuffle()" need to be hardcoded simply

GreyFox

@bazola That is exactly what I was thinking.

skiwi

It could maybe be possible to at least have players attach "stats" to their cards, and let the game render them

and use those in the effects

say you give a monster a stat called "awesomeFactor", then you can reference it everywhere, have good things happen with it, have bad things happen

bazola

5:41 PM

@skiwi how we are going to have the algorithm account for the wacky imbalances when you start combining all different card abilities, i have no idea :)

skiwi

@bazola Lots of playtesting... with AI, that's I think what you need

and negative feedback, if you spot an OP card, then you tone it down

(in case algorithm fails)

GreyFox

I think if each ability and stat has a predetermined cost and the cost of adding extra abilities scales with what is already there. I.E. draw a card ability adds one cost to the card and return creature to hand costs 1 but if they are both on the same card then it should add 3 to the cost because you are getting both in one go.

bazola

@skiwi but even with months/years of development, and a base of only 300 cards, players are still coming out with all new and imbalanced ideas even now, and they have millions of players and millions of megabytes of data :)

GreyFox

@skiwi and this. Playtesting is going to be key for awhile until you figure out the balancing issues

skiwi

@bazola what game is that referencing?

bazola

5:43 PM

in hearthstone that is

Dagg Nabbit

@bazola those are the kind of things I think should all be scriptable through some API

skiwi

Yeah well, the only real safety net you have is that you're going to need to reduce the cards' strength as it soon as it gets really powerful

Dagg Nabbit

the "core" has no idea about that ability, it just has a graveyard collection and a hand collection, and hooks for Lua or whatever

all those abilities would then be scripted with the same thing modders would use

Simon André Forsberg

I have absolutely no idea how this works or not, I just had it setup:

www2.zomis.net/tcg-creation

5

skiwi

Q&A is more suited for... Q&A's though

not sure for discussions

Dagg Nabbit

5:51 PM

that does look cool though

Feeds

Simon André Forsberg has added skiwi to the list of this room's owners.‌

Dagg Nabbit

i was just thinking of setting up a github project just to use as a wiki

Feeds

Simon André Forsberg has added Dagg Nabbit to the list of this room's owners.‌

Dagg Nabbit

aww yeah

Simon André Forsberg

A github project might work too. I've never setup a Q&A before so I both wanted to see if it works and I think we can find use for it as well

@skiwi And how well does Code Review fit that format again?

I imagine that at least initially, there might be some Q&A's involved

Even though the real answers will probably be the one with the most up-votes. For things such as deciding the licence of the project and so on

skiwi

5:55 PM

@SimonAndréForsberg Such a Q&A site is great for actually proposing an idea and hearing feedback on it, but not so much for the discussion leading to that idea

So it has its uses agree

Dagg Nabbit

www2.zomis.net/tcg-creation/1/…

Simon André Forsberg

Of course this chat room can be used as well :)

Dagg Nabbit

I think QA might work, and then we graduate stuff to a wiki

Simon André Forsberg

Then at least we can have some graduation :)

GreyFox

Haha

Dagg Nabbit

6:00 PM

lol

bazola

www2.zomis.net/tcg-creation/3/what-should-the-theme-be-if-any

skiwi

SE is faster than that site software :P

Simon André Forsberg

@skiwi yup :)

Speaking of which, I wonder...

Feeds

Simon André Forsberg has made a change to the feeds posted into this room

skiwi

if that works? xD

Simon André Forsberg

6:14 PM

Exactly. We'll see.

Stack Exchange

TCG Creation - Recent questions: What should the "core components" be?

posted on August 01, 2014

By "core components" I mean things that are not moddable/scriptable. Things like what cards are where (decks, hands, playfield, graveyard), who's turn it is, what "phase" of the turn it is, how many HP each player has, etc. I think the "core" should do the absolute minimum to keep the game running, and everything else should be through the modder's API. Thoughts?

TCG Creation - Recent questions: What should the "theme" be, if any?

posted on August 01, 2014

The basic idea for the game so far is a TCG game where the players create the cards by combining different abilities together. Should we have a theme that reflects this in some way? Or should we let the players decide the theme of the card they are designing? There are pros and cons to each of these approaches. If we plan to create any artwork ourselves, it will have to hav…

TCG Creation - Recent questions: How can we avoid infinite combos?

posted on August 01, 2014

Check out this thread to get an idea of what infinite combos are. Generally it can be something like two cards where one says "when A happens then do B" and the other says "when B happens then do A." I feel like there should be some core mechanic that prevents infinite combos from being possible. A simple way to avoid this could be by enforcing a rule where any "effect" can only be appli…

skiwi

haha nice

it feels a little bit evil though

Simon André Forsberg

Evil? What's evil?

skiwi

Adding a feed from an SE clone to a SE room

Simon André Forsberg

lol, naaaah :)

Phrancis

6:28 PM

I added my take to first question

Stack Exchange

TCG Creation - Recent questions: How to build the thing?

posted on August 01, 2014

What tools/libraries/frameworks should be used to implement the game?

Phrancis

> I was just going to say something like futuristic, maybe as if players were building robots for battle, adding modules and parts to them, installing special software, maybe even "designing" software, this would appeal to our ilk :)

Stack Exchange

6:44 PM

TCG Creation - Recent questions: How to License

posted on August 01, 2014

What license should be chosen for the code and the game?

Phrancis

Who is Dad Gum on there? @DaggNabbit ?

Dagg Nabbit

yeah it's me

whoa we have a SE site now?

oh wait

that's a neat trick

Simon André Forsberg

@DaggNabbit RSS FTW :)

Phrancis

So here's a hypothetical to test my idea of a setting for the came... Player @SimonAndréForsberg casts a basic robot 1/1 B0RG using 3 points (I'm not sure the word mana would work well, maybe a form of currency?). Other player @DaggNabbit casts a ground stomp robot called QU4K3 2/2 + Ground Pound ability.

Simon André Forsberg

Ground Pound ability? :)

Phrancis

6:56 PM

@SimonAndréForsberg reacts next turn by casting a FooPropeller card on B0RG making it 1/1 + Fly and able to evade a Ground Pound

Kind of a RPS in a way

Simon André Forsberg

lol. I see we have card ideas at least :)

Phrancis

Hey, unlike most programmers, I'm actually pretty good at naming things ;)

Simon André Forsberg

I don't understand the significance of B0RG or QU4K3 though :)

Phrancis

Just make names that look like robot/part models, but actually read like words

Double-entendre :)

So then @DaggNabbit could invest points into a program he created to give a bot homing capabilities for missiles, casts on QU4K3 so that it can shoot a flying target, and then shoots down the flying B0RG and sends it to the junkyard (graveyard).

Etc. etc.

Dagg Nabbit

deviating from the standard medieval fantasy setting seems like a risk to me

Phrancis

7:07 PM

Maybe we could set up that you can "deploy software" on the same turn you cast a creature, but not install parts or something like that

Dagg Nabbit

like, less likely to be appealing to the "average player" but more likely to get some crazy cult following

not saying it's a bad risk, just a risk

GreyFox

deviation would be a risk, but it would make it feel fresh. Most TCG games out right now are settled nicely in the fantasy/medieval setting

@DaggNabbit agreed

Phrancis

@DaggNabbit we could always have "theme skins" e.g. each card has two/three names & images stored so they could switch

Without affecting the gameplay

GreyFox

themes would over complicate potentially. Then the ability names would have to change too, or the references wouldn't cross over well per theme

Dagg Nabbit

if we're really trying to attract a good modder crowd though, something that appeals to programmer types could help

Phrancis

7:09 PM

But TBH, I'm getting sick of medieval settings, they are EVERYWHERE (games, movies, TCG, comics) I think something fresh especially in TCG would be good

GreyFox

There's always room for cyborg elves as well, something more akin to the Shadowrun format. Futuristic fantasy.

Dagg Nabbit

shadowrun format would be cool

GreyFox

I think that would mesh with the average player, and the modder community

Still something fresh as well.

Dagg Nabbit

idk though, if the "vanilla" game is pretty generic the modders can feel like they're being more creative

GreyFox

You could have all the classic races (Gnome, orc, elf, bugbear, etc.) but glitz them up cyper punk style.

Also true.

Simon André Forsberg

7:11 PM

The theme of the game is one part that I have absolutely no opinion about. I'm glad others do :)

GreyFox

We need a general theme, and not theme style that would change the appearance, because the game needs to have a refined look. In my opinion, at least.

Dagg Nabbit

what if (big what if)... what if the theme was so generic that modders pretty much had to jump in and make it interesting

Phrancis

Cyber punk sounds fun, perhaps the players can be of different races, affecting the way some of their abilities work?

GreyFox

Haha, there's always that route too, keep it basic, bland, and funtional, and leave it to other to spice it up

Phrancis

E.g. elves are better at programming but gnome is better at installing parts, etc.?

GreyFox

7:12 PM

That's a possibility. You creat your player character and set a race and those are the cards you have access to. Essentially reskins of cards for each race, but it makes your initial race choice matter with how your field and cards look.

Dagg Nabbit

your four of clubs has four attack and four defense and a costing cast of 4, and is a "clubs" type unit

someone's gotta spice that up

GreyFox

Gnome should be about stealing or selling parts. (a scrap mechanic maybe to gain additional mana? by breaking down cards on field)

Or sacrificing cards in hand for additional mana. Like a race trait

Phrancis

@SimonAndréForsberg you worry about making it work then :)

GreyFox

They tend to be more resourceful.

I'm just spitballing here though

Dagg Nabbit

see this all seems like mod stuff to me

I really think we should focus on a pretty generic theme at least for getting this thing off the ground... something pretty mundane

Phrancis

7:16 PM

@DaggNabbit true

GreyFox

mods and mechanics are interchangeable really. but keeping it basic is definitely the easy route to open it up for modding.

Dagg Nabbit

we can all get into groups and do mods we think would be cool

yeah because if most of us are "modders" then we can petition the "core team" for stuff we need

Phrancis

Are we doing a standard 52 card initial deck?

Dagg Nabbit

that is all going to depend on game balance

GreyFox

We were talking about a 30 card deck earlier,

522 is odd for something based on building a deck.

*52

Simon André Forsberg

7:17 PM

@Phrancis Three words: Entity Component System

Phrancis

I think if we used the generic attributes of playing cards as reference it would be practical to design the behavior

Each card would have 3 basic attributes: value | face | color

Dagg Nabbit

i sort of like the idea of the core game being playable with regular cards too, but I'm not sure if this is a good idea or just a gimmick

GreyFox

That's true, but are we going to focus on the suits as well, essentially 4 of the same card with different suits in each deck? How would someone tweak their deck and not have the game focus heavily on RNG and draws

Phrancis

Build mechanics around that to use for now, after that is done changing it would be a simple matter

Dagg Nabbit

@GreyFox does hearthstone not have different "suits" like MTG?

like MTG has basically elemental suits

Phrancis

7:20 PM

@GreyFox yeah basically.

Simon André Forsberg

@DaggNabbit HS has classes. Each class has a unique hero power and some unique cards.

GreyFox

No, nothing is element based because the mana is generalized

Dagg Nabbit

got it

generalized mana does seem simpler

Simon André Forsberg

It is a lot simpler.

GreyFox

I agree.

Dagg Nabbit

7:21 PM

so card suits might not translate if we go that route. Or the suits could be "classes" or just ignored

bazola

card suits are okay but I don't see any reason to limit it to 4

Dagg Nabbit

if it were playable with regular cards... the core game without any effects... it would pretty much force us to keep the core simple

GreyFox

Or you could focus on the race the player chooses and that could function as the "suit" and have 4 races (elf, dwarf, orc, human) or something new completely.

Simon André Forsberg

Also, in HS, each class has a "theme", which is like a common thing many of the class-specific cards has. For example, Shaman has "Overload", Druid has "Choose one", Rogue has "Combo"...

GreyFox

@DaggNabbit good point

bazola

7:23 PM

i don't see any way to make it playable with regular cards without needing lists of effects and such to explain what all the cards really are?

Dagg Nabbit

@SimonAndréForsberg makes sense... you could also add effects like "all units of class X get a boost"

Phrancis

@bazola after dev is done it would be fairly simple to change the number of suits etc. just update/insert records in the storage DB

Dagg Nabbit

@bazola the idea is there would be no effects in some initial prototype

to make sure the game is fun "by itself"

bazola

i certainly see the point you are making but I think that without effects the game would just boil down to some kind of war scenario where the biggest card always wins?

Phrancis

I feel playing cards are easy enough for everyone to visualize and number is small enough to be practical

Dagg Nabbit

7:24 PM

you just have units and play them and make them attack/defend or whatever... make sure there's some core strategy and the effects just enhance it

@bazola yeah exactly... I want to see if we can avoid that scenario with "core mechanics" alone

make it interesting and strategic without effects, basically

GreyFox

@bazola I'm on your side on this one. Making it playable with standarc playing cards is easier. But I think it loses the TRADING aspect in a TCG

skiwi

86?!

Dagg Nabbit

?

@GreyFox that is true, but there's no reason you couldn't trade standard playing cards, I guess

bazola

@DaggNabbit well that makes sense, but then we must answer some questions. Will the player have HP? Is the main point of the game playing monsters on the battlefield? Is there some tactical element to the positioning of cards on the field? Can the players choose who to attack when attacking, who to block when blocking? On a certain level we have not actually decided to have attacking and blocking yet as the main gameplay element

Phrancis

I'll try to come up with something tonight or tomorrow in SQL and see what you guys think

Dagg Nabbit

7:27 PM

@bazola yes these are the big questions I think

GreyFox

Yeah, what is the win//loss scenario here?

Phrancis

Generic schema

Dagg Nabbit

@GreyFox I'm most familiar with MTG so I'm used to the player being an "entity" with HP and he can block with units and stuff, but I'm definitely not married to that idea

Simon André Forsberg

The problem with standard playing cards is that they only have two properties: Rank and suite. And all suits have 13 ranks, and all ranks have 4 suits. So they are highly inter-connected. So what could the ranks and suits possibly represent?

GreyFox

Dag and I were talking about the tactical positioning element and I think that would really set this apart from other TCGs

Dagg Nabbit

7:29 PM

@SimonAndréForsberg you're right, standard cards might not make sense, or might get us stuck in a weird way of thinking. We should develop the "base card attributes" from the ground up

Simon André Forsberg

I think it would be better that way, yes @DaggNabbit

Phrancis

@SimonAndréForsberg I pictured we could use the rank value to determine what type of card... e.g., A-5 could be updgrades, 6-10 could be creates and J Q K perhaps wildcards that do other things

Simon André Forsberg

@GreyFox I do like what Hearthstone added there, I don't know how many times I've played a minion to the wrong position....

GreyFox

@SimonAndréForsberg haha Agreed. We were talking earlier about a front and back row that could play off of each other accordingly. Where essentially you have a front line and a support line behind it.

Simon André Forsberg

@Phrancis But that would need a separate mapping besides the cards only, which makes things more complicated and not easier. Then if you saw Five of Clubs you would have to look up that card in a table/list to find out what it actually means.

GreyFox

7:31 PM

Really opens up the synergy oppurtunities

Phrancis

@SimonAndréForsberg good point.

Simon André Forsberg

@GreyFox I think I like that idea.

skiwi

Pfft, the site doesn't even auto refresh :P

Dagg Nabbit

right, so row would be important (front row does more damage, back row takes less damage?) and also card proximity within the row; which cards are next to others for AOE and positional combos

but not an all-out grid

GreyFox

I think it would set it apart and really make it something different. Still functioning like a standard TCG with a lot more strategy, almost RTS like, with all of the options. And it could remain basic, just focus on the options for the player without too much leg work

brb have a meeting to go to

Phrancis

7:34 PM

Alright I think I got an idea for a basic card structure. Let me go to the drawing board for a few and I'll post it for review

How about you guys list some of the standard attributes you would expect a card to have in TCG? (tag me)

bazola

theres a TCG that has a couple of rows on the battlefield, i think its called Summoner? let me check..

Summoner Wars

skiwi

Hmmmm

Suddenly, an idea

bazola

Some people love it, it was too generic for me and I couldn't get into it, but it is on iOS at least i think

skiwi

You know Stratego?

What if we create massive battlefields, like 40 cards each? with different rows etc

might look a bit like d&d though

Simon André Forsberg

@Phrancis Example card: Creature, 5 mana: 4 attack, 5 health. "Whenever this minion deals damage, draw a card"

@Phrancis Example card: Spell, 3 mana: Destroy a creature

Phrancis

7:45 PM

character_class
class_name    class_attribute    steampunk_synonym    medieval_synonym
Tough        Defense        Gangster        Warrior
Smart        Buffs        Hacker            Wizard
Fast        Speed        Sniper            Archer
Steal        Upgrades    Mechanic        Thief

^alignment is off but am I on the right track?

skiwi

Except that steampunk and gangster don't mix up:p

Dagg Nabbit

@skiwi my instinct is telling me to stay away from an all-out 2d grid positional battlefield thingy, doesn't feel enough like a card game anymore

Phrancis

@skiwi suggest another one then

Matt Giltaji

Thug

Dagg Nabbit

then again it might be more flexible if "core" supported that and "vanilla" only used it for "rows"

Matt Giltaji

7:47 PM

or toughie

Dagg Nabbit

tank

Phrancis

I like Thug

Dagg Nabbit

what if we name everything using MMO slang

Matt Giltaji

new column!

Dagg Nabbit

just to make it kind of... what the word

quiche? no that's like an egg pie

something that sounds like quiche

Matt Giltaji

7:48 PM

cliche?

kitsch?

Dagg Nabbit

that's not it either xD

kitsch!

that's it

units like "squishy the pinsticker" would be pretty funny

skiwi

@SimonAndréForsberg Don't you have an app for the Q&A site? :p

@DaggNabbit I'm not too sure about it either

Dagg Nabbit

we need to figure out the basics, like what are the card types... just "units" and "effects?"

Simon André Forsberg

@skiwi lol, what do you expect of me? :)

bazola

attack spells, defense spells

Matt Giltaji

7:52 PM

@SimonAndréForsberg the star wars card game had positioning

Simon André Forsberg

@DaggNabbit Sounds like a good question for a Q&A site near you

skiwi

@SimonAndréForsberg Well, you could've just (cough) made us an app :P

bazola

if by effects we just mean things that buff units

Dagg Nabbit

@SimonAndréForsberg it does

Simon André Forsberg

@MattGiltaji Star Wars Card Game?

Dagg Nabbit

7:52 PM

@bazola i was thinking more than that, like immediate effects that just do stuff, like reshuffle graveyard

Matt Giltaji

Star Wars Customizable Card Game

Star Wars: Customizable Card Game (SW:CCG) is a customizable card game based on the Star Wars fictional universe. It was created by Decipher, Inc., which also produced the Star Trek Customizable Card Game and The Lord of the Rings Trading Card Game. The game was produced from December 1995 until December 2001. Operation and oversight of the game was then taken over by a Decipher created volunteer group called the Star Wars Customizable Card Game Players Committee. To date, the Players Committee, or PC, still runs the game and creates new cards known as "virtual cards" that are released online in...

Simon André Forsberg

@skiwi What would that app be other than a homepage embedded in an app? I hate such apps.

Dagg Nabbit

units, buffs, nerfs, effects

Phrancis

class_name    class_attributes    steampunk_synonym    medieval_synonym

Peon    Position, cost to cast, attack, defense, ability    Robots    Creature

Resource    Value, type    Soda caps    Mana

Buff    Attached to peon, not destructible    Programs    Spells

Upgrade    Attached to peon, destructible    Parts    ?

Drawing a blank on medieval synonym for update... Weapon/armor maybe?

skiwi

@SimonAndréForsberg For notifications I mean

Matt Giltaji

7:53 PM

@Phrancis outfit

Dagg Nabbit

gear

Matt Giltaji

gear is totally steampunk

Dagg Nabbit

nahhhh