The Frying Pan

@Sobachatina Ahh I don't know the difference! I'm not supposed to call anything an apple pie, said Rum, unless it was a particular American apple pie. And a lemon cake doesn't make me think of something with a filling (which I want).

Mien

We have tarts and cakes.

Cerberus

See?

It's too hard.

Mien

Something like this?

Cerberus

9:14 PM

Yes!

Like that.

Unless you have a better idea.

Sobachatina

Interesting. Sounds like another one of @Rum's no-word-for-a-topping kind of questions.

Cerberus

I have lemons, sugar, butter, flour, egg, cream.

@Sobachatina What?

Mien

Let me see.

Sobachatina

Sorry- she once asked what the word was in English for a particular topping that goes on a particular dish for which there is a particular word in Bulgarian.

We couldn't come up with an English equivalent- only generic words like 'topping'

Mien

@Cerberus I have a recipe for something that looks very very similar.

I haven't tried it myself, but I have tried other recipes from this book.

Sobachatina

9:16 PM

@Cerberus How strong do you want it to be?

derobert

@Cerberus Oooh? Maybe @rumtscho is just crazy. There are several types of Apple pie. One of them we even blame on the Dutch.

Mien

Do you want it or will you search yourself?

@derobert Which one?

Sobachatina

Lemon squares are delicious but very sweet and tart- they are eaten in small portions.

derobert

@Mien The one we call "Dutch Apple Pie" :-P

Cerberus

@Sobachatina Ahh that sounds like her!

Mien

9:17 PM

We have apple tart and apple cake.

Sobachatina

A lemon truffle pie would be more creamy and less tart so you would eat larger portions.

Cerberus

@Sobachatina Pretty strong?

@Mien Hmm interesting; but is it complicated? Because I like easy things...

derobert

google.com/images?q=dutch%20apple%20pie

Cerberus

@derobert Ehh I probably only half understood her.

Mien

No, it looks very easy.

Sobachatina

9:18 PM

pillsbury.com/recipes/lemon-truffle-pie/…

Mien

But perhaps a bit time-consuming.

Cerberus

@derobert Hmm I see all kinds of pies?

derobert

The ones with crumbs on top. That's what makes them Dutch, AFAIK

Sobachatina

allrecipes.com/recipe/lemon-square-bars/…

Cerberus

@derobert Oh! We call that "apple-crumble-taart".

Mien

9:20 PM

Yes, looks like crumble.

Cerberus

That's funny.

We use an English word, and you call it Dutch.

@Sobachatina That looks good, but I don't have cream cheese or chocolate.

derobert

Yeah, though I'm guessing that's Dutch = Pennsylvania Dutch = German.

Cerberus

And the shops are closed.

@derobert Oh, right.

@Mien Why is it time consuming?

Mien

Well, they make the dough, let it chill and blindbake it.

It's not that consuming I think.

But you should know it.

Cerberus

I was just thinking of mixing some egg yolks, sugar, cream, lemon juice, and zest for the filling.

Mien

9:21 PM

I'll write it out, in Dutch.

Yes the filling is just trhowing stuff in.

Cerberus

@Mien Ohh but I'm too impatient for that.

Mien

Well, good thing I said so.

Cerberus

I was thinking of making a sweet kind of dough.

Mien

Do you have dough on hand or are you planning on making it now?

Cerberus

@Mien Yup you know me better than I myself!

Mien

9:22 PM

Because most doughs would require that.

Cerberus

@Mien Making.

Hmm what happens if I just make cookie dough and use it for the crust?

Mien

This one requires chilling for 2x 30 minutes and baking another 30 min

You'll see what happens :)

Cerberus

Heh.

derobert

You trying to make lemon bars, a lemon tart, or what?

Mien

Make sure your butter is cold.

citroentaart!

Cerberus

9:23 PM

Last time I tried, I was happy enough with the crust.

Mien

9 mins ago, by Mien

Cerberus

@derobert Just any kind of sweet crust with a lemon topping.

Yeah like that.

The thing people eat in France.

derobert

@Mien That looks like a deep-dish pizza filled with lemon bar

Cerberus

I have made something like that several times before.

@derobert No no, it is a typical tarte au citron.

Mien

Lemon pizza then.

Cerberus

9:25 PM

So what happens if I don't let the dough rest? That probably happened last time, but it didn't seem to bother me...

derobert

@Cerberus Ah! Then it looks like it needs more filling.

Cerberus

@derobert Why?

Sobachatina

@Cerberus It doesn't hydrate and is much harder to work with.

Cerberus

They are usually thin.

@Sobachatina As in sticky?

Sobachatina

And crumbly.

derobert

9:26 PM

@Cerberus Well, the pie crust looks twice as high as the lemon.

Cerberus

@Sobachatina Hmm is that bad? I am used to crumbly dough?

Mien

That's not the point.

Sobachatina

Not "bad" just hard to roll out, etc.

Cerberus

@derobert Yeah I don't know why, but they sometimes have that in France.

Mien

@Cerberus ask it on the site :)

Cerberus

9:27 PM

@Sobachatina Oh OK.

derobert

Sobachatina

If you are pressing it into the pan then it doesn't matter.

Cerberus

@Mien Hehe, well, to me, it doesn't matter, as long as it tastes good.

derobert

That picture is one from Cooks Illustrated. They call it a "Classic Lemon Tart"

Cerberus

@derobert Hmm that is a bit thick. Then the topping/filling would have to be less strong than normally.

@Sobachatina Hmm yeah that's how I always do it...is there a better/other way?

Sobachatina

9:29 PM

@Cerberus Depends on the recipe. Crusts are often made of pastry that is more elastic and can be rolled out and shaped.

Cerberus

@derobert I guess different traditions exist?

derobert

@Cerberus Not sure how strong it is, never made it. It looks like they just made the crust less tall, though...

Cerberus

Oooh it's all so complicated!

Sobachatina

If you are pressing it in then it probably has more fat and sugar is more like a shortbread crust- which is also delicious but different.

derobert

@Cerberus Of course, there are key lime pies, which if your mouth doesn't pucker when you eat it, aren't strong enough.

Cerberus

9:30 PM

@derobert Looking at that fork, it looks thicker than what I would usually eat, but I'm sure they both taste great hehe.

Sobachatina

I made a pie for thanksgiving called a "shaker lemon pie" it was so sour that I couldn't finish the first bite.

Mien

@Cerberus I'm glad I'm not the only one feeling like that for once :p

Cerberus

@Sobachatina Hmm I think I want a sweet crust.

@derobert Yeah, those I like.

@Mien I'm just lazy and terrible at following recipes.

derobert

@Cerberus If you want an easy sweet crust, how about a graham cracker crust?

Cerberus

I always think, "naaah why would I do it like that? I can think of a simpler way".

@derobert What's that?

derobert

9:32 PM

@Cerberus Run some graham crackers through a food processor, add sugar, add melted butter, process some more, press into pie pan

Cerberus

Graham crackers? dubious face

derobert

@Cerberus standard crust for e.g., a New York-style cheesecake, if you've had that

Cerberus

Nope.

Sobachatina

Ginger snaps or oreos also work very well.

derobert

Cerberus

9:33 PM

Oh, I see.

derobert

@Sobachatina Yes, or animal cookies.

Cerberus

In any case, it's going to have to be just flour, sugar, and butter, because that's basically all I have.

And eggs, baking powder.

Sobachatina

@Cerberus Did you see the lemon squares recipe? That sounds pretty close to what you are asking.

Mien

@Cerberus when do you want to eat it?

Cerberus

What is a simple crust that is sweet and crumbly?

Sobachatina

9:34 PM

14 mins ago, by Sobachatina

http://allrecipes.com/recipe/lemon-square-bars/detail.aspx?event8=1&prop24=SR_Title&e11=lemon%20squares&e8=Quick%20Search&‌event10=1&e7=Home%20Page

derobert

@Cerberus well, seems you don't have those ingredients

:-P

Sobachatina

@Cerberus ((Sugar + fat) * creamed) + flour = cookie dough.

Mien

@Cerberus This one:

150 g flour and 25 g sugar

knead 125 g butter through it

put 1 tablespoon (15 ml) with it and knead

Cerberus

@Sobachatina Oh I missed them! Yeah, that looks good. Perhaps I'd like a crust that is a bit darker and thinner.

@Mien ASAP

rumtscho

Just for a clarification to the Americans here, why he doesn't dare say "apple pie" any more

What he had made last time was more of an apple quickbread

Cerberus

9:37 PM

@Sobachatina Haha interesting formula. So 1:1:1?

rumtscho

With eggs, sugar and flour mixed to a batter, then baked with apples on top

Cerberus

@Mien Hmm that's not very sweet!

rumtscho

And he kept calling it "pie" - that's what confused me a lot

So I tried to explain that pies are made with a crust, not with a batter :)

derobert

Ah. Yeah. A pie has filling in the middle

Cerberus

@rumtscho And butter in the batter.

rumtscho

9:38 PM

@Cerberus OK, I forgot the details

I couldn't even tell if it is sponge cake or pound cake

derobert

Sounds sort of like an apple fritter.

Cerberus

The thing is, here we call everything taart that has a topping or filling.

Sobachatina

@Cerberus No. more like 1:2:3 for shortbread.

ruhlman.com/2010/03/scottish-shortbread

rumtscho

Because the only difference between them is if you mix the butter with sugar and add all else, or if you mix the eggs with sugar and add all else

derobert

Of course, apple fritters are deep-fried.

rumtscho

9:40 PM

And you said you threw in everything at the same time and pushed the button, IIRC :)

Cerberus

True.

I mean, guilty.

rumtscho

BTW, I have Kenji chili simmering on the stove now

Cerberus

Yay!

Sobachatina

@rumtscho Bravo!

rumtscho

And I just powdered 5 g lavender in my new mortar

Cerberus

9:41 PM

@Sobachatina So what's 1, what's 2, and what 3?

rumtscho

Now the whole room smells of lavender

Sobachatina

Sugar:fat:flour

Cerberus

Wow.

rumtscho

@Cerberus flour-butter-sugar

Cerberus

@Sobachatina Ah OK.

rumtscho

9:41 PM

@Sobachatina 3 parts sugar, 1 part flour?

Sobachatina

@rumtscho I was basing it purely on Ruhlman's recipe above.

rumtscho

Is this thickened toffee or what?

derobert

1 part sugar, 2 parts fat, 3 parts flour

Cerberus

Right, that makes sense.

rumtscho

@derobert yes, this should be correct in my experience

Cerberus

9:43 PM

So 150 g flour, 100 butter, 50 sugar, for a very flat, medium-sized crust: is that OK? And should I add an egg and/or baking powder in the crust?

rumtscho

And if you are making a cookie instead of a crust, you can replace 10% of the flour with some dry powder - which, in my case, will be matcha for one batch and lavender for another

@Cerberus How big is your pan?

I tend to use 150 g butter for a 26 cm pan

Cerberus

I'd say medium size? Let me measure it.

derobert

well, pie dough is 3:2:1 as well, flour:fat:water

rumtscho

I can get the crust to maybe 4 mm with this measure

Cerberus

I'd really like the crust to be minimal.

rumtscho

9:44 PM

Less than 4 mm is very hard to roll

derobert

then you add either sweet (sugar) or savory (onion, etc.) flavors to that ratio

Cerberus

And the whole cake/thingie to be very low/flat.

@rumtscho I will just push it in with my hands?

rumtscho

@Cerberus you can't get it even that way

At least I can't

Mien

@Cerberus

imgur.com/a/X8kcr

rumtscho

Have tried it, but rolling - even with the whole refrigeration etc. - is much less hassle

Cerberus

9:45 PM

@rumtscho Then what happens, is that bad?

rumtscho

@Cerberus Besides the bad looks?

Cerberus

@Mien Ahh thanks, gezinsfavorieten!

rumtscho

You have some holes in the crust

Mien

Lol :p

Cerberus

@rumtscho Hmm OK that is not good.

Mien

9:46 PM

Well, now you have it. Make up your mind :)

rumtscho

Also, the parts which are thinner bake really dark and crispy, and the parts which are thicker stay partly underbaked

Cerberus

It's about 22.5 cm, diameter.

Mien

You want pictures of other citroentaart recipes? :p

rumtscho

OK, so 100 g butter is probably good

derobert

rumtscho

9:47 PM

If you have some left over, you can bake it on a baking sheet or on a piece of alu foil and eat it as a cookie

Or clothe a muffin cup with it and fill it with something else

Mien

@derobert it's not for me!

Cerberus is making it for me.

derobert

@Mien Sounds like its for you then :-P

rumtscho

@Cerberus The recipe @Mien posted will probably have a very sugar-tasting filling

Seeing that you have cream, I would seriously consider a custard filling

Mien

12 Tbsp is quite sour.

Cerberus

@Mien Oh it looks good! But can't I skip the waiting stuff, mommy? And how about the water in the dough? Does it still count as a dough for Rumy?

derobert

9:49 PM

@rumtscho Depends on how sour he wants it

Mien

@Cerberus I think you definitely can skip the second 30 minutes if you want.

rumtscho

@Cerberus water is added for flaky crusts, these are a bit more complicated

Mien

@Cerberus Yes! It's still dough, even for Rumy :p

Cerberus

@rumtscho Hmm yes I hadn't looked at that yet: 100 g sugar is a bit..sweet.

Mien

Then use less.

rumtscho

9:50 PM

I think it will taste like lemon candy

For my taste, the filling @derobert posted will be better

But who knows, maybe you like the sugary stuff - it is not an absolute thing

Mien

You can use 50g of sugar

if it's too sour, put some more powdered sugar on top.

rumtscho

Also, if you have a specific type of tart in mind, the one @mien posted is probably what you have eaten

Cerberus

@Mien It is a miracle!

rumtscho

Custard fillings are unusual in Europe

Mien

Hallelujah!

@rumtscho No? All our tarts have it.

Or isn't that considered a filling?

rumtscho

9:52 PM

@Mien OK, interesting.

I should try to look more into Belgian cuisine.

Mien

Or isn't pastry cream a kind of custard?

Cerberus

@rumtscho Hmm I think we went over flaky crusts before...honestly, one of the reasons I like lemon pie/cake/thing is that it just can't go wrong, it's always delicious!

rumtscho

Yes, pastry cream is a kind of custard

Cerberus

@rumtscho Like lemon curd?

@Mien Oh...not bakkersroom?

rumtscho

@Cerberus Custards are not usually curdled

Cerberus

9:53 PM

shudders

Mien

@Cerberus Banketbakkersroom :)

derobert

@rumtscho Well, what about when the baker screws up?

Cerberus

@rumtscho Haha I don't even know what that means, except that milk can be curdled to make butter or something...

@Mien Ewww that is gross.

rumtscho

@derobert I meant here the paragon custard

Mien

Why??

Cerberus

9:54 PM

God, I hate that.

It is goo.

Sorry.

Mien

What do you hate?

Pastry cream?

Then you haven't tasted mine!

It's not gooey!

Cerberus

Hmm.

Mien

It's thick and full of flavour ^^

rumtscho

@Cerberus No, milk can be churned to make butter, or curdled to make paneer.

derobert

@Cerberus If you heat a custard (egg-dairy mixture) too hot, too many proteins denature, causing it to go from nice and creamy to scrambled eggs

Cerberus

9:55 PM

I hate it on all cakes that I have ever eaten? And in koffiebroodjes and moorkoppen shudders harder.

@rumtscho Haha, every sentence you utter contains another word that I am not familiar with. Cooking is hard!

rumtscho

goes off to wikipedia to see what all these dutch cakes are like

Cerberus

@derobert Ahh I see. So how hot should it be baked?

Mien

@Cerberus And you've had a lot of these?

Cerberus

@rumtscho Remember, we don't really have a cuisine to speak of.

@Mien Well, as few as possible.

rumtscho

OK, it says that Moorkop doesn't have pastry cream at all

Only whipped cream

Cerberus

9:56 PM

Moorkop is just whipped cream, yes.

derobert

@Cerberus Usually you don't want the center to exceed 160–170°F (70–75°C), but it depends on recipe

Cerberus

Thank God.

Mien

Moorkop = profiterole?

Oh.

We don't use that term.

rumtscho

@Mien a cream-filled, choco-glazed profiterole

Mien

Oh! We do have 'negerkop'. Same name.

Cerberus

9:57 PM

@derobert Hmm OK, so at what temperature would you bake a cake with a lemon/cream/egg topping?

Mien

But it's something else inside.

Cerberus

@Mien It means nigger head, hehe.

Mien

@Cerberus You don't bake it with the topping

Cerberus

Because it is a brown ball.

@Mien Yes!

derobert

@Cerberus Well, you bake them much hotter—you just have to pull them out when they're done

Really delicate custards are done in a water bath...

Cerberus

9:58 PM

@derobert Ahh OK, so the clue is to not bake it any longer than the recipe says.

rumtscho

koffebrodjes is a Danish braid filled with pastry cream? drools

Cerberus

closes ears

rumtscho

@Cerberus I think that the custard recipe @derobert gave you is not for a baked filling

You make the filling in a pan and pour it into the baked shell

Mien

I think so too.

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