The Frying Pan

It's also that pie is from English "cuisine", while quiche is from French cuisine, so the words might not fit well together within the same set of rules.

rumtscho

The English and French quisines are very, very similar.

Yes, there are lots of savory meat pies in Brittain (I think the Americans don't make them as often), and quiches in France. Other things which the Americans qualify as "related" are pierog from Northeastern Europe and Pita from the Balkan, but they are a very different dough.

Mien

@rumtscho I tried answering, but I got tired towards the end.

Especially the weaving part is a bit badly explained I'm afraid.

And my numbering is off :(

Stupid Markup

rumtscho

@mien thank you

Mien

Np, tell me if something is not clear.

Btw, did you mean with 'dense' that a lot of surface area is covered?

rumtscho

Yes, I meant a dense weave

Hmm, nice idea here

povarenok.ru/recipes/show/40387

Sorry, it is in Russian

But I think you can get it from the pictures

Mien

6:38 PM

Yes :)

rumtscho

This is a sweet enriched bread dough, rolled with a nut-sugar mix

Mien

But it's cut up completely?

rumtscho

Yes, they cut it up

And then put the rolls partly covering each other

Mien

It might've been better if it was cut but not completely, and then sideways shifted.

If that makes sense?

Cerberus

@rumtscho Ahh pierogi!

I like!

Mien

6:39 PM

Ah, they push some towards the middle.

Cerberus

That's potato and onion in a pastry, right?

rumtscho

@Cerberus I don't mean the small dumplings

Cerberus

Oh.

rumtscho

"pierog" is the word a Russian would use to translate the English word "pie"

But I'm not sure what a typical Russian pirog is made of

I am trying to look right now, but they use it very loosely

For example, they call the bread above a pirog

And also "imported" recipes

Mien

@rumtscho In my answer I said you don't need a lot of extra length. But I only know this is the case with my pies, since I fold over the bottom dough, so it's not noticeable if a strip isn't long enough.

Cerberus

6:44 PM

@rumtscho Then why are the small dumplings called pierogi? I believe they are specifically Polish and sold under that name. A Polish girl confirmed this.

rumtscho

Yes, the word is related.

But I don't know why the food is so different.

Actually, the Russians also have pirozhki

They are "small pirogs"

And they are more commonly fried than baked

But I don't know why the Polish people use the word for the cooked dumplings.

Cerberus

But they are good.

rumtscho

Maybe. I've never had them.

I shouldn't have researched that much

Now I want to bake kulebjaki

Cerberus

Kublai Khan pastries?

rumtscho

No, a very rich pirog

Coulibiac

A coulibiac (from Russian: кулебя́ка kulebyáka) is a Russian dish consisting of a loaf usually made with salmon or sturgeon, rice, hard-boiled eggs, mushrooms, and dill. The loaf is baked in a pastry shell, usually of brioche or puff pastry. The dish was so popular in Russia in the early part of the Twentieth Century that Auguste Escoffier, the famed French chef, brought it to France and included recipes for it in his masterwork, The Complete Guide to the Art of Modern Cookery. A classic grand coulibiac features several fillings, often a mixture of some white fish and rice for the top an...

They don't explain much in the English article

The Russian one is better

It has 3-4 different mincemeat based fillings at once

They are separated with pancakes on the inside

This is a bread dough on the outside, not pastry dough.

Cerberus

7:02 PM

Oh...

rumtscho

oh?

Cerberus

Hey, what is the definition of a vlaai?

Vlaai

Vlaai, better known as Limburgse vlaai, is a pie or tart consisting of a pastry and filling. Vlaai is usually 27—30 centimeters in diameter. Originally vlaai was created in Weert, Limburg and is therefore also known as Weertervlaai. It is a typical product from the southern regions of the Netherlands, but nowadays generally available all through the country and in parts of Belgium and Germany near to the border of the Netherlands. It is available in many different varieties of fruit fillings (cherry, apricot, strawberries, plums, etc.) , a crumbled butter and sugar mix ("greumellevlaai")...

We think it must have a dough that is like bread dough.

My friend and I.

And we hate it.

rumtscho

Never had it

Let me read about it

Cerberus

But people here seem to like it. Vlaaien are popular all over the country, as one of the main kinds of pies.

I'm afraid the Wiki article is not as clear/complete as it could be.

rumtscho

They say it is pastry

If this tastes like bread to you, Hollandese bread is even worse than I remember it.

Can you post a recipe for it?

Is there a big Hollandese site for recipes?

ElendilTheTall

7:08 PM

Give me tompoosers or give me death!

Cerberus

@rumtscho I don't know, there are many sites. But this site seems to know what it is talking about:

vlaaideeg.vlaairecepten.nl/…

ElendilTheTall

Spelling is probably wrong

Cerberus

@ElendilTheTall Tompoezen?

rumtscho

rains death upon @ElendilTheTall 's head

Sorry, freshly out of tompoosers.

Cerberus

So: 200 g flour, 15 g butter, 2 tbsp olive oil (okay, that is weird), 2 tbsp sugar, and some other stuff.

That sounds much like bread dough.

rumtscho

7:12 PM

@cerberus yes, this is a rather lean bread dough

Cerberus

And it tastes like it too: like bread left unprotected and near a moist substance (the filling).

rumtscho

OK, then it maybe really tastes like bread

The wikipedia article talked about pastry.

Cerberus

@rumtscho Lean? I use less fat in my bread.

@rumtscho Yeah, it's weird.

rumtscho

Then your bread is lean, too

OK, this one is slightly enriched

Cerberus

OK.

In any case, do you think you would like that dough, with a regular fruit filling?

rumtscho

7:13 PM

But really rich bread has more fat.

Cerberus

I hate it—and yet it is very popular here. There even is a country-wide franchise called Multi-vlaai.

rumtscho

I don't know, I like some types of "pie" with a bread dough and a fruit filling

There is Zwetschgendatschi, for example.

It is plums baked on a bread dough base.

Covered with Streusel - these are crumbs made from a mix of raw sugar, butter and a tiny bit of flour. They bake quite crispy.

Eaten with whipped cream.

But the sweet bread below bakes well. It doesn't form a crust, but this is normal.

Mien

@Cerberus That picture is incorrect.

Cerberus

@Mien How so? Vlaaien usually look like that here.

rumtscho

what are kruis bessen?

Mien

7:17 PM

How does a pie look like?

@rumtscho The berries you had last summer.

Cerberus

@rumtscho Green large berries.

rumtscho

Stachelbeeren.

Mien

Goose berries.

rumtscho

Yes, thank you.

It is scary that 1) @Mien remembered them and 2) I recognized what she means.

Cerberus

@rumtscho Hmm Perhaps it depends on the kind of bread. But my friend got a vlaai as a present from people from the south of Limburg, the heartland of the vlaai. And the dough tasted as dull as it usually does with vlaaien. And the filling was not very good either, a bit dull as well (a filling to me should be either sweet enough or sour enough, or have a really great texture).

Mien

7:18 PM

BTW, @Cerberus or @rumtscho, I was in the store last week and I was looking at pie dough and it seems that 'kruimeldeeg' and 'zanddeeg' are not the same... I thought they were synonyms....

Cerberus

@rumtscho Ohh I used to pluck those in Gothic II (game I played in German).

rumtscho

@Cerberus I wouldn't know, I haven't played the game

Mien

@rumtscho Well, I had to look up the translation + I had never heard of them in Dutch as well + I was given some; all in the same two weeks.

Cerberus

@Mien Hmm...perhaps kruimeldeeg is just regular apple-pie dough but thrown on top in crumbs?

Zanddeeg is hard, as in hard cookies.

rumtscho

"Pluck" sounds like a very graphic way to put it.

Mien

7:20 PM

@Cerberus No, it's regular dough.

I think zanddeeg is more butter-tasted and kruimeldeeg crumbles more.

Cerberus

@Mien ...wait, so dough used in apple pies doesn't count as regular? Or should I say appe-cake dough?

Mien

But I don't know. I thought they were both short pastry.

Cerberus

Arg so many definitions!

Mien

@Cerberus Well, begin with your definition of apple pie :p

Hahaha yes

But I'm watching a movie :(

Can you wait a bit?

Cerberus

For you, always.

Hehe.

rumtscho

7:23 PM

@mien I don't think there is a difference between kruimeldeeg and zanddeeg

At least after finding recipes for both

They both seem to be pastry dough.

Not sure if they are making a difference between short pastry and flaky pastry. But then, many cuisines don't.

I don't know about you native Dutch speakers, but I find "basterdsuiker" a funny word.

Mien

@rumtscho I hate that word :(

I don't know what it means

rumtscho

Apparently, it means brown sugar.

Mien

I think it's caster sugar and I grind regular sugar.

@rumtscho I've seen white, yellow and brown basterdsuiker in recipes.

rumtscho

At least that's what the Dutch wikipedia says.

Mien

But what would white basterdsuiker be then?

rumtscho

7:30 PM

Probably white sugar wetted with invertsugar instead of molasses?

It says that historically, it used to be underrefined cane sugar.

"wordt gemaakt door aan fijngemalen, witte, geraffineerde suiker een oplossing van invertsuiker toe te voegen."

"Daarbij kan ook melasse en karamel worden toegevoegd."

So today, it is made with invertsugar, molasses or caramel, if I got that right.

They probably give a different color each.

Mien

@rumtscho Where are you reading that?

rumtscho

Basterdsuiker

Basterdsuiker, ook wel bastaardsuiker of bruine suiker (indien het de bruin gekleurde variant betreft) genoemd, wordt gemaakt door aan fijngemalen, witte, geraffineerde suiker een oplossing van invertsuiker toe te voegen. Daarbij kan ook melasse en karamel worden toegevoegd. De karamel geeft de basterdsuiker ook wat meer smaak en een bruine kleur. Vroeger was basterdsuiker minder ver geraffineerde rietsuiker. Basterdsuiker bevat meer water dan kristalsuiker. Hoe donkerder de kleur, des te hoger het vochtgehalte. Door het hogere vochtgehalte klontert dit type suiker vrij snel. Suiker k...

Mien

Heh, it sounded familiar.

I think I've read it 10+ times when I was researching that cassonade graeffe sugar.

Is candy sugar a correct english term?

rumtscho

I don't know

There is Candissugar in Germany

Mien

It's kandijsuiker in Dutch.

That's the only dark brown sugar I can find.

But I'm hesitating to use it in baking.

rumtscho

7:38 PM

Looks like Americans call Kandis "rock candy"

And no, if it is the same thing, it isn't for baking.

It won't dissolve.

Why don't you try mixing molases and white sugar?

Or, if you can't get molasses at all, use caramel. Or even simple syrup.

The whole point is to start with a slightly moister sugar, which changes the texture.

If you use caramel, the taste will be similar enough too.

Mien

@rumtscho Because I can't find molasses here.

I know that cassonade graeffe has some molasses in it, so I just use that.

But it smells so aweful :D

rumtscho

If it is dry, it won't give you the same result.

Mien

No, it's quite wet.

rumtscho

And if it smells awful, I wouldn't use it, no matter what the recipe specifies :)

Is it maybe wetted with beets syrup instead of molasses?

Mien

Our kandijsuiker is also very wet, it was very wiggly like you described.

@rumtscho No I don't think so.

rumtscho

7:43 PM

I can get beet syrup here, and it is a bit strange in flavor too.

Rock candy

Rock candy (also called rock sugar) is a type of confectionery mineral composed of relatively large sugar crystals. This candy is formed by allowing a supersaturated solution of sugar and water to crystallize onto a surface suitable for crystal nucleation, such as a string or stick. Heating the water before adding the sugar allows more sugar to dissolve thus produces larger crystals. Crystals form after 6–7 days. Food coloring may be added to the mixture to produce colored candy. Origins Candied sugar has its origins in India and Iran. It has several different names in India among wh...

It shouldn't be wiggly.

It is big, hard crystals.

Mien

No, it's not like that.

rumtscho

There is a reason why it is called "rock" sugar.

Strange, because this is what Wikipedia links to.

Mien

rumtscho

And in Germany, this is Kandis too.

Mien

It's the right one we always have.

I'll videotape the wiggling tomorrow if you'd like.

2

rumtscho

7:45 PM

@Mien I believe you

I saw it for myself, and it is upsetting enough to see it once :P

There is probably some mixup in terms.

ElendilTheTall

@Mien This sounds promising!

Mien

:D

hi @ElendilTheTall

@rumtscho Yes possibly. But I don't have any good translations or comparisons.

rumtscho

@Mien then I would use it where English recipes call for "dark brown sugar"

Mien

Doesn't rock candy taste a bit like anise?

rumtscho

Lol, did you people see today's Wikipedia article of the day?

I wonder if it isn't an April Fool's joke

Pigeon photography

Pigeon photography is an aerial photography technique invented in 1907 by the German apothecary Julius Neubronner, who also used pigeons to deliver medications. A homing pigeon was fitted with an aluminium breast harness to which a lightweight time-delayed miniature camera could be attached. Neubronner's German patent application was initially rejected, but was granted in December 1908 after he produced authenticated photographs taken by his pigeons. He publicized the technique at the 1909 Dresden International Photographic Exhibition, and sold some images as postcards at the Frankfurt ...

@Mien In its normal state, it is made from pure sugar syrup

i am sure they can put tastes in it if they want to, but I haven't heard of it.

Cerberus

8:04 PM

@rumtscho It says invertsugar is always added, molasses and caramel are optional.

@rumtscho Haha, joke.

There was absolutely no reason to deliver medicine by carrier pigeons, except perhaps to one or two villages in the mountains that could get blocked by snow and were without a local phramacy. I mean, you need to train pigeons for a specific route, not to fly to any address at will.

Another thing: miniature cameras were likely the size of a chair around 1900.

Well, maybe the size of a microwave. In any case not something a pigeon could ever carry.

rumtscho

but it sounds so awesome that I want it to be true

rumtscho

8:20 PM

I am not entirely sure it is a joke

The picture file they used was uploaded two years ago

Or look at the toy soldier with the camera pigeon file from August 2009

Do you think that maybe admins changed the logged dates to make it look legit?

I don't see why the camera size couldn't have been made small back then

Sure, a bigger sensor gave better quality

But if you went on and made a small sensor, you could have made a small camera body as well

The lenses would have been a problem, the smaller the sensor, the longer the equivalent lens distance

So, for these extra-wide pictures, he would have had to use lenses much wider than what was being used with normal (big) cameras

And they have references hosted on the Deutsches Technikmuseum site

Mien

8:42 PM

Is cornpone just cornbread without milk/eggs?

rumtscho

9:06 PM

@cerberus the pigeon photography page was started on 1 june 2009. I doubt that they would have kept it 2 and a half years if it had been a joke.

Cerberus

@rumtscho How odd.

It could also be that this guy patented a concept that was neither technologically feasible nor useful?

rumtscho

I could even have bought it that an admin forged the time stamps for an elaborate joke

But it has hundreds of edits since then, and the references point to lots of foreign domains.

Cerberus

I mean, consider what would happen if a pigeon with a miniature camera fell or crashed into something. Such a camera would have been tremendously expensive.

rumtscho

@Cerberus It looks like the cameras were actually built and pictures were taken.

Cerberus

@rumtscho Hmm...

rumtscho

9:09 PM

It looks that it wasn't used so much, but it existed.

A bit like betamax, I guess.

I am still not 100% convinced that it was true. There have been Wikipedia hoaxes before.

But it looks quite well executed.

Cerberus

I should read the article.

@rumtscho Hmm I must say it does look convincing.

I was misled by the whole medicine delivery thing.

I imagines an ordinary apothecary delivering medicines to customers, while in fact it was probably about delivering medicines into a besieged town or something in war time.

Mien

9:25 PM

Wow, I just saw a mosquito :s they are early

Cerberus

Yuck.

> One of their homing pigeons, a Black Check cock named Cher Ami, was awarded the French "Croix de Guerre with Palm" for heroic service delivering 12 important messages during the Battle of Verdun. On his final mission in October 1918, he delivered a message despite having been shot through the breast or wing. The crucial message, found in the capsule hanging from a ligament of his shattered leg, saved about 200 US soldiers of the 77th Infantry Division's "Lost Battalion".

This is quite touching.

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