Electrical Engineering

hhh

01:08

Do you know where to get this kind of small GPS unit? I thought about TI's NL550, ideas?

*source of the image: technologyreview.com/view/425334/…

angelatlarge

03:37

David Kessner

Hi all.

The Photon

@DavidKessner Ahoy

David Kessner

@hhh Try this for GPS modules: sparkfun.com/categories/17

How is it going tonight?

The Photon

@DavidKessner My exciting Friday night!

David Kessner

@ThePhoton What makes it exciting?

The Photon

03:43

@DavidKessner The exclamation point!

David Kessner

@ThePhoton Have you been drinking? :)

The Photon

@DavidKessner No!

David Kessner

Well, you sure are excited tonight.

The Photon

I'm trying to imagine what I would do with 0.005% resistors.

David Kessner

@ThePhoton If they are SMD resistors, you can stack them on end and push them over like Dominoes.

The Photon

03:48

But if they're axial-lead I could use them to clean gunk out from between the keys on my keyboard.

angelatlarge

@DavidKessner :)

David Kessner

@ThePhoton Axial-leaded resistors are good for getting the lint out of your belly button.

@angelatlarge Evening!

angelatlarge

@DavidKessner Or getting SMD resistors out of there

@DavidKessner Hallo!

David Kessner

@angelatlarge Strangely enough, I have never had SMD resistors lodge in my belly button.

@ThePhoton Mostly, I try to design my stuff so that I don't need 0.005% resistors.

angelatlarge

@DavidKessner That's odd.

The Photon

03:53

@DavidKessner That's wise. I don't think I've ever seen a 0.005% resistor.

angelatlarge

@ThePhoton Only tantalum resistors can even approach 0.005%

David Kessner

Once we got a price quote for some thick film 0.5% 0805 resistors from Vishey. I kid you not, the first quote came back as $20/each. We laughed, and they came back with a new quote of $5/each. Keep in mind these things have something like 3,000-5,000 resistors per reel.

The Photon

I mean 0.005% 100 Ohm resistor. If the wire connecting to it has 0.005 Ohms resistance, you just blew your error budget.

@DavidKessner Bulk metal foil?

David Kessner

@ThePhoton I prefer 0.005 ohm, 100% tolerance.

@ThePhoton I forget what kind it was. They were nice resistors, but we wouldn't pay $0.50/each for them.

The Photon

A friend of mine has a band. He called up and left a message wondering if we know somebody who could help him set up a Wordpress site for his band....Is Wordpress really a good choice for a band site? What should he actually be using?

angelatlarge

04:01

@ThePhoton Wordpress is not bad. There are three basic CMS systems out there: wordpress, Drupal, and Joomla. Either one will work.

David Kessner

@ThePhoton I use wordpress and it works fine. Most importantly, it's free to use (there are fee based upgrades, too). Give it a try, you have nothing to loose but some time.

angelatlarge

@DavidKessner Ain't that the truth

@ThePhoton I've used Wordpress and Drupal. Wasn't crazy about Joomla.

David Kessner

And by wordpress, I am referring to wordpress.com as opposed to some CMS hosted at another site.

The Photon

I have a Wordpress site, and I've used a more customized Wordpress-based site. But they were just straight-up blogs...linear stream of posts. Not sure that's what I'd want if I was advertising a band.

And the premium upgrades (your own domain, no ads) add up quick...but maybe I'm not well calibrated on what it would cost to get a site hosted by a more "generic" hosting service.

David Kessner

@ThePhoton That's the cost of running a business, and a band is a business...

The Photon

04:07

Right, but you want to run the business efficiently. Why pay wordpress $200/year for something you might be able to get for $100/year somewhere else? (Honestly I have no idea what kind of budget my friend has for this)

angelatlarge

For about $100/year you can get your own decent hosting service, plus $20 for the domain you pay to a registrar.

The Photon

I guess WP with custom design, custom domain, and no ads comes to $75 per year...plus whatever you pay to the theme designer...so maybe it's not too bad.

Assuming you don't need them to host your videos (where the storage space charges add up pretty quick)

David Kessner

@ThePhoton $75/year is tiny compared to how much the upkeep of the web site is. If you spend an hour a week, 52 hours a year, at $10/hour then you have "spent" $520/year on maintaining the website. Of course, the accounting of band finances is often never as straight forward, but you get the idea.

The Photon

@DavidKessner True

How much time you spend wheedling your tech-savvy friends into maintaining your website for you.

David Kessner

@ThePhoton Bands are all about scamming people out of freebies. :)

Here is a good video about bands getting freebies. Worth watching. ted.com/talks/amanda_palmer_the_art_of_asking.html

markrages

04:25

markrages.tumblr.com/post/48981903493/nrf51-sample-code

my latest blog post

can anyone explain the code that mystified me?

angelatlarge

@markrages Only the person who wrote it, would be my guess

The Photon

@markrages I can probably explain the redundant comments.

angelatlarge

@ThePhoton Maybe he already did?

markrages

redundant comments, why?

The Photon

I mean explain why thery're there, not point out how idiotic they are.

angelatlarge

04:32

@ThePhoton Sorry I misread that

@ThePhoton Corporate commenting requirements?

markrages

the whole SDK is full of that kind of comments

which would support that theory

The Photon

@markrages Auto-documentation generator. Want's to have something to say about every input, output, and return value. Normally the name of the function doesn't need to be restated in the comment, though.

So /* ... main() ... /* is still a wtf.

markrages

yes, well that would explain why the doxygen docs are worthless in this case

because they just restate what the code says, without any "why"

The Photon

In Visual Studio if I just type /// it auto generates a template with a line for each input and output and the return value.

@markrages hardware guys writing code?

markrages

I actually like that style of commenting

but if you are just rephrasing the variable names, you aren't adding value

The Photon

04:36

Guys who were told they have to write comments, but English isn't their first language so that makes it a pain to do right.

markrages

Maybe this is an example of why mandatory comments are a bad idea

the hardware design in this chip is excellent and a pleasure to work with

I think it was different folks writing the SDK.

David Kessner

I'm off to bed. Later all!

markrages

gnite

angelatlarge

bye

user61389

05:22

Morning, what's up with the stars?

user61389

Ahh my name is italic too! Awesome.

angelatlarge

@CamilStaps Which stars?

@CamilStaps Hello

user61389

@angelatlarge on 'l' and ':]'

angelatlarge

@CamilStaps @rawbrawb liked it. I don't know why.

@CamilStaps I don't know what's up with :]

user61389

@angelatlarge hm okay. How's the rep going? 2K already?

angelatlarge

05:27

@CamilStaps After you post a couple of free beer questions for me, sure.

@CamilStaps I've been mostly androiding, and there are a couple of new rep-hungry users to seem to know their stuff on EE.SE, so few opportunities for easy rep.

user61389

@angelatlarge I won't be online today except an hour or so now, so I think I'm going to pass ;)

user61389

@angelatlarge yeah, I've noticed them as well

angelatlarge

@CamilStaps I got 40 today. Not nothing but not 200. And no, I am not 2K :(

Need another 150

And then all your commas are belong to us

user61389

@angelatlarge :P 150 is possible in one, or otherwise two days

jippie

good morning

user61389

05:31

Patience is a virtue ;)

user61389

Hi @jippie

angelatlarge

@CamilStaps Lots of things I possible. It is possible that @jippie will show up... OH MY GOD, IT IS A MIRACLE!

Hi @jippie

user61389

@angelatlarge haha

jippie

@angelatlarge visited 394 days, 219 consecutive

yes there is a slight possibility I might show up

angelatlarge

@jippie That's inductive.

@jippie i.e. meaningless in a DC circuit

jippie

05:34

@angelatlarge I'm like noise, that isn't DC by definition

angelatlarge

@jippie No, I am noise. You are signal.

The Photon

@angelatlarge Everybody else was starring punctuation!

angelatlarge

@ThePhoton Your punctuation.

@ThePhoton Or your French.

The Photon

@angelatlarge I'm not allowed to star my own punctuation.

user61389

Punctuation matters.

user61389

05:36

A lot. It's worth editing.

angelatlarge

@CamilStaps You don't say!

The Photon

@CamilStaps Can I edit your chat post to add an exclamation point?

Good night.

user61389

@ThePhoton good night :)

angelatlarge

@ThePhoton Goodnight

jippie

06:01

@angelatlarge poor SNR today on chat then

angelatlarge

@jippie kshhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhtttttttttttttttttttttttppppppppppppppptttttttthhhhhhhhh‌hhhhhhttttttttttttttt!

user61389

Okay, I'm out. Bye!

jippie

SNR got even worse

angelatlarge

06:21

hhhhhhhhhhhhhpppppppppppppthhhhhhhhhhhhhhhshhhhhhhhhhhhhkkkkkkhhh

@jippie That's because you are not talking :)

@jippie Actually, I wanted to ask you something that i saw in an answer but couldn't quite believe...

jippie

@angelatlarge follow your gut feeling

angelatlarge

3

A: Making an adjustable resistance

Using the pot like this is fine. Usually, when connecting a potentiometer as a variable resistor, you connect the unused pin to the wiper. Makes the circuit diagram look a bit cleaner, and in audio circuits keeps the pot from making scratchy noises while it's being turned. For sensing ambient li...

Is it true that the wiper "usually" gets wired to the unused pot terminal? I've never done that.

OK, when the wiper is at the same end as the unused terminal, that's like having parallel wires from the end of the resistor: no difference.

And when the wiper, is say, in the middle, that's like having a resistor of 1/2 value, plus a resistor of 1/2 value in parallel with a bare wire, so that's nothing also: the result is just 1/2 the resistance.

jippie

@angelatlarge it is often done like that, not sure why. Not sure (actually I doubt if it matters much) if the scratchy noise makes sense in an audio application, maybe @DavidKessner knows.

angelatlarge

@jippie ok

jippie

@angelatlarge best argument in that answer to my current knowledge is that the circuit diagram looks tidy. No loose ends, nothing forgotten to draw.

Anindo Ghosh

07:22

@jippie In an audio circuit, if the wiper loses contact with the resistive surface at some point, there is momentarily an open circuit. Connect the wiper to the unused side, and worst-case is that the circuit has a resistance equal to the maximum of the pot. That's a good reason to tie the wiper to the end contact.

jippie

@AnindoGhosh but it is still noisy

@AnindoGhosh and if the wiper loses contact in an audio application, you should have bought a better quality potmeter ;o)

Anindo Ghosh

@jippie No doubt - but a transient open circuit would be worse. For the noise-sensitive situations, there are digital pots, ganged (dual) pots, and ages ago there used to be some big huge special-purpose pots in a sealed unit with some conductive grease kind of thing on the surface. I wonder whether those still are made. I had a couple of them.

jippie

08:27

@AnindoGhosh an average potmeter, 15x15mm, what would the order of magnitude max current be?

Anindo Ghosh

09:39

@jippie max current, or max voltage? Current isn't usually high at all, and of course it also varies by resistance: The Bourns 3590 multiturns I use are rated for 2 watts AbsMax

jippie

Bourns is not your average potmeter ;o)

@AnindoGhosh When I was a young boy I had smelly potmeters every now and then, especially at the end of the scale.

And I was doing some experiments earlier to figure out what current is needed for a relay card

(turned out > 250uA)

But I touched 10mA ..

Anindo Ghosh

@jippie Yes, but since those are rated at just 2 Watts, lesser ones would be less, was what I was trying to say.

@jippie What is a relay card?

jippie

Anindo Ghosh

@jippie ahh. Sorry, I didn't understand the term. I know those as relay modules. My bad.

@jippie are you familiar with the TL431? I'm planning to use it for my super-defensively-designed MOSFET module, to trigger a crowbar.

for overvoltage protection.

jippie

nope not familiar

how expensive is the mosfet you are trying to protect?

Anindo Ghosh

09:50

@jippie About 50 cents. The TL431 is about 10 cents. Hmm, that's a very valid question - why bother to protect it at all, eh?

@jippie Thanks, that's what I like most about you - You're always grounded in practicalities, not a theoretical EE who always says "Oh, order a more expensive part".

jippie

did I fry my IRF530 if it shows a 15mA drain current at U(GS)=0V?

@AnindoGhosh not entirely sure. I think the most important thing you want to protect is the microcontroller. That is relatively expensive (especially when mounted on an eval board).

Maybe you want to protect the external circuit aswel?

Anindo Ghosh

@jippie Yes, that's well protected by just the optocoupler itself.

jippie

@AnindoGhosh it all depends on your goal/requirements

of course ordering more parts is more fun than thinking about goal and requirements :o)

Anindo Ghosh

@jippie That's the part that I'm toying with: Let's say you are the target buyer - would you expect the module to be protecting stuff, if you were feeding in 25 volts on a 18 Volt rated module?

@jippie Goal = make a super-cheap module that hobbyists will love to buy, and that will be solidly useful.

jippie

do you need to trigger at 18.001V or would 18'ish volts be good enough :-p

or 16'ish V for that matter

Anindo Ghosh

09:58

@jippie The TL431 did not even need ordering, I'd used them for some design some time ago (before my EE.SE days), so I have a few dozen left over. Also, they are Rupees 3 each (6 cents) in single unit retail.

@jippie Oh, anywhere from 16 to 19.5 would rock, since the silkscreen will say rated for 16 Volts 2 Amperes.

@jippie The IRF530 cannot have 15 mA with V(gs) at 0 Volts, there's something driving gate voltage up.

jippie

@AnindoGhosh I have two voltmeters and a ampmeter in the circuit.

i think i fried it

Anindo Ghosh

@jippie No spare IRF530?

jippie

I think it was dissipating about 15-20W with a small heat sink

Anindo Ghosh

@jippie 15 watts with an on resistance of 0.15 Ohms or so = 100 amperes current

jippie

It was in its linear mode

I think I'd go for a a resistive divider and a SCR

Anindo Ghosh

10:04

@jippie Brings back the question - would you use an SCR at all, or let the device be blown if overvoltage occurs?

jippie

not sure which device would trigger first, the SCR (as designed) or the MOSFET by breaking down

Anindo Ghosh

@jippie Because an SCR costs more than the logic level MOSFETs I have.

@jippie No, that's not a problem, as the SCR triggering is easy to manage carefully. For that matter, it is cheaper to use a MOSFET to crowbar than an SCR.

@jippie Except, the MOSFET would go into linear before saturating, and that might cause it to fail due to overcurrent before the PPTC triggers

No, I think I'll skip overvoltage protection. Think of yourself as the customer. Would you not know what voltage you were applying?

jippie

but if you apply say 100V to a 60Vmax MOSFET, designed as crowbar. What would happen first: will it break down due to the 100V or will it have time enough to act as crowbar to reduce the voltage?

Anindo Ghosh

@jippie It's junction will fry. MOSFETs are delicate that way.

jippie

so what is the use for a MOSFET as crowbar when it will break down before it does its job?

@AnindoGhosh I feel like spoiling all your design-fun ;o)

Anindo Ghosh

10:19

@jippie Exactly, I'm skipping the crowbar. I'll retain the overcurrent and the reverse connection protection

jippie

poor little MOSFET, it barely saw the light of day

I think I'll stick with the relay module for the application I have in mind (switching on and off USB disks).

Anindo Ghosh

@jippie Yeah, relays have their advantages.

@jippie Bidirectional for one thing. What's the cheapest single channel relay module out there?

jippie

@AnindoGhosh don't know, this one was under 6 euro's. It looks pretty decent quality.

Anindo Ghosh

@jippie OK. My MOSFET SIL module should be priced at around $2 or so

jippie

consumer price or manufacturing cost?

jippie

10:41

@AnindoGhosh you know these tiny two wire voltmeter modules?

Anindo Ghosh

@jippie Consumer

@jippie I don't use the 2 wire ones, only the 3 wire versions.

jippie

o.

there is a trimpot on the rear

Anindo Ghosh

@jippie OK, and?

jippie

do you know what it adjusts?

Anindo Ghosh

@jippie Nope. My 3 wire ones don't have one.

jippie

10:43

o.

i thought I had 3 wire ordered, but they are two wire

did you notice there is no part number on the chip? :-)

top secret internals :o)

hhh

10:57

@DavidKessner Thank you, it may become useful -- now trying to find BT4.0 chip. I found BTE113 but trying to find some chip that I can get fast..

Any idea for other BT4.0 chips? BlueGiga BTE113 is one but is there any other manufacturers?

Anindo Ghosh

11:20

@jippie No, those are probably OEM "pulled" chips, i.e. pulled off the production line either because the client cancelled an order, or because the chips were not meeting specs. One of the reasons so many modules are cheaper than the cheapest price of the ICs, even large volume pricing, is the whole "pulled IC" economy. Those sell a lot in India.

@jippie And then there are entire wafers reported as "quality control reject", which are then packaged and sold without knowledge of the client.

jippie

@AnindoGhosh so there is no way you could make a cheaper 3digit 3 wire voltmeter yourself.

Anindo Ghosh

@jippie Not that I know of - the LED displays are bloody expensive in small volumes. The economy in such items works thus (at least for the vendors in Mumbai, who I discuss these things with): Any large sized (for its price) low to medium volume product, or delicate item regarding careless storage (e.g. LED display) is not worth importing large volumes of, especially in the container load imports, which are typically shipped in (amazing to see) jute sacks!

@jippie Also, any SMD part not sold in huge volumes is not priced well here, as the popular business model is about very fast product throughput, 1 to 2% profits, minimal inventory cost, zero proper-handling cost, and often somewhat illegal sources (undocumented sales) and shipments (customs duty evasion). SMD parts that need Pick & Place machines and cannot be soldered by low-cost manual labor, are not popular here, since it is very difficult to justify the cost of a high end P&P machine.

A basic P&P machine capable of 0402 or smaller, is around $20k here without paperwork, twice that with legal import.

jippie

11:40

m

Anindo Ghosh

Even at 20k, that would pay the salary for more than 100 man-months of manual soldering, plus due to weak labor law enforcement, you can always fire them when work is low, and re-hire when work rolls in.

jippie

m

Still I'm a little inspired by the fact that I can do the same with the parts I have lying around :o)

I'm still busy with the 4 digit display module anyway :o)

It is pretty straightforward to add an ADC to it, just have to change from an ATtin2313 to an ATtiny861

that way I have 3 free ADC inputs, and I can make the thing autoranging :o)

bit have to make it accept serial first. Then bluetooth. Then decode data from a GPS module ...

have to order 3V3 voltage regulators

/me is out for abit

Anindo Ghosh

@jippie I got a great deal for 20 pieces 3.3V LDOs on eBay a while ago. I think my bid was some $1.72 or something, and it was a holiday week so nobody outbid me.

Anindo Ghosh

12:24

Just got quoted in an article on Photography, in Hindustan Times newspaper.

jippie

12:35

@AnindoGhosh amzing, someone with the same name and hobby!

Anindo Ghosh

@jippie Yeah, neat, huh? Not a hobby in my case, but that's mere detail.

jippie

I'm thirsty and it is too early for beer, what should I do?

Anindo Ghosh

13:12

Decide on a different time zone.

AshRj

13:23

This room seems almost empty today

Anindo Ghosh

@AshRj So also all the SE sites I follow: It seems there are far fewer questions than is the norm. None on EE.SE for 6 hours. Very unusual.

jippie

13:37

@AnindoGhosh but ealier this week we had over 80 questions overnight! @AshRj

Anindo Ghosh

@jippie Hush! Don't talk about them or they'll get closed down ;-)

jippie

@AnindoGhosh I don't have enough votes for that

Anindo Ghosh

14:00

Is the hang-out now, or after an hour?

Anindo Ghosh

14:11

I guess I can't attend, I have to step out now, won't be back in an hour most likely.

clabacchio

Hi all!

jippie

14:51

is 48V safe to touch? will I feel it?

my room is filled with magic

released quite a bit of blue smoke the past hour :(

Toby Lawrence

:]

The Photon

15:49

@jippie Marginally safe. In a safety class they had us touch two metal plates to our forearm and ramped the voltage up. Most people start to feel it around 25, 30, 40 V. IWe did both ac and dc, which makes a big difference how much you feel it. I don't remember if the 25-40 V numbers I remember were for ac or dc.

rawbrawb

@ThePhoton what did you notice about the ac dc

The Photon

@rawbrawb I don't want to spoil it for you.

rawbrawb

@ThePhoton I've almost killed myself several times, can't say as I noticed the difference but then they were waaay over a safe threshold so I'm not sure that it would have been notice able. Have never done the ramp up thing so I am curious.

The Photon

@rawbrawb To be honest I don't remember the distinction between ac and dc. I remember the sensation ramps up from a slight itch to mild pain on the skin. I can't describe it better than that.

There's a lightswitch in my house with a metal switchplate. The plate seems to get a bit of capacitive coupling from the AC hot line. Very sensitive people can feel a buzz when they touch that switch. I only feel it if I'm moving my finger across the plate, makes the plate feel like it's ripply or corrugated.

rawbrawb

@ThePhoton I misread your post. I've heard people discuss that one is more dangerous thus the question.

The Photon

15:59

@rawbrawb IIRC the general theory is that AC is more dangerous because it can cause muscle contractions which can prevent you releasing something you shouldn't have grabbed on to.

I believe Edison lobbied to have the electric chair operate on DC as part of the effort to get his AC mains distribution system adopted.

rawbrawb

@ThePhoton That what I've heard too, but DC will polarized the muscle one way so should n't that be harder to let go of?

@ThePhoton You have it exactly backwards ... Edison was a cruel dude and invented the electric chair to discredit Westinghouse/tesla.

The Photon

Oops, otherway around according to Wikipedia.

@rawbrawb yes, this.

rawbrawb

HE used to have a travelling show that would travel around county fairs. Every new town they'd arrive and capture a few stray dogs and then electrocute them for "show".

The Photon

Electric shock

Electric shock occurs upon contact of a (human) body part with any source of electricity that causes a sufficient current through the skin, muscles, or hair. Typically, the expression is used to describe an injurious exposure to electricity. Very small currents can be imperceptible. Larger current passing through the body may make it impossible for a shock victim to let go of an energized object. Still larger currents can cause fibrillation of the heart and damage to tissues. Death caused by an electric shock is called electrocution. Magnitude The minimum current a human can feel depe...

rawbrawb

I suppose that muscle contraction can only be sustained for so long so the muscle would weaken in DC with AC the ion channels would be "replenished".

I've have close calls with 30KV DC, 11KV AC, 60KV AC and of course normal mains AC in NA and Asia.

The Photon

16:07

@rawbrawb Keep one hand in your pocket

I had a 600 V or so APD bias circuit on a board I worked on. It could give you a mild tingle, but it was limitted to 100 uA or so...

rawbrawb

@ThePhoton yep, or better yet ... stay away from 3 world switch gear closets and cavalier workers.

The Photon

@rawbrawb I still don't have a good handle on what you do for a living...What are you doing messing around with 30 kV?

rawbrawb

@ThePhoton you have to care about surface leakage currents on your PCB.

The Photon

@rawbrawb No no-clean for that board.

Luckily the operating environment for that circuit was in a clean lab.

rawbrawb

@ThePhoton THat was a past life. We were implementing powerline communcation eqt. SSDS first people to do that.

The Photon

16:12

Solomon Schechter Day School of East Boston?

rawbrawb

@ThePhoton LOL, Spread Spectrum Direct Sequence. in the presence of multiplicative (commutative ) noise. Very interesting theoretically.

Anindo Ghosh

Ahh, we're talking hair-raising tales again! Hi everyone, they call me sparky :-)

rawbrawb

@AnindoGhosh I love your story ...

in the lab if I remember correctly

Anindo Ghosh

@rawbrawb Which one? The HV supply in the lab? Or the soldering iron and smell of grilled steaks?

rawbrawb

@AnindoGhosh Oh yes, the steak one too!

Anindo Ghosh

16:19

@rawbrawb I'm going to endeavor to bring some of my college friends to EE.SE (They're all EEs, but AFAIK they have all moved on to being MBAs or real estate brokers or some such). That's when you'll get to hear the stories I'm to embarrassed to tell myself.

rawbrawb

@AnindoGhosh Aaah it's good for the soul.

Anindo Ghosh

BTW @rawbrawb I got quoted in a photography-in-Mumbai article in a major newspaper today. Getting a lot of people pinging me about it. I have not seen the print article myself, but I was told they had used a couple of my art images as well.

rawbrawb

@AnindoGhosh cool! Another clipping to add to the portfolio!

Anindo Ghosh

WTF, my rep is at xx999. I need to find some answer I downvoted, that has been subsequently edited.

@rawbrawb Yes, after more than 6 months. The industry thought I had retired or something.

hindustantimes.com/Brunch/Brunch-Stories/…

The Photon

@AnindoGhosh Aren't they supposed to ask permission before they do that? Or do you have a publicist to deal with that stuff?

rawbrawb

16:24

@AnindoGhosh lots of quotes there. I've visited Sigma's lens factory ... didn't get a freebie

The Photon

On shooting public spaces:

“One can shoot any building, except for defence premises, with a compact or smartphone camera,” says photographer Kaushik Chakravorty. “If you come to a site with fancy equipment and don’t have permission, we will stop you,” says an inspector at Kings Circle police station. “But if you have a small camera or smartphone, we may not even notice it.”

Anindo Ghosh

@ThePhoton Oh, my PR kit got sent to them, they only need to seek permission if they make a derivative work.

The Photon

F'ing briliant.

rawbrawb

@AnindoGhosh so how badly did they misquote you? or how much nuanced stuff did they leave out?

The Photon

So as long as the terrorists are smart enough to just use a point-and-shoot, only working photographers get harrassed

Anindo Ghosh

16:28

@rawbrawb They left out a lot of stuff which went against the product placement agenda (The big brands you see named, would have paid for ads in the sister publications, typically). For instance, I'd given them a lot of cost saving ideas for beginners.

@ThePhoton Remind me to regale you with stories of my brushes with the lame arm of the law in my pursuit of photographic opportunities.

The Photon

@AnindoGhosh A compact point & shoot (or a phone camera) will capture everything a terrorist needs to know about a building. Idiots.

I can understand not wanting somebody setting up a tripod (and lighting) and shooting wedding photos on a busy railroad platform...

Anindo Ghosh

@ThePhoton This is true: The bigger your camera or lenses, the more you get harassed.

The Photon

But harassing people for shooting exteriors of public buildings is pathetic --- happens here too.

rawbrawb

@ThePhoton I showed up at a military base without ID once (pre- 9/11) and got in. It was by invite and they knew me, but now ...

Anindo Ghosh

@ThePhoton There's a very scenic island called Elephanta Island, famous for the Elephanta Caves, fantastic ancient sculpture in living rock. One needs a permit to use a tripod there, and artificial lighting is forbidden so hand-held images are pretty much out. It takes an hour by ferry from Mumbai to get to the island. Now, there is no information about the tripod permit available from the tourist offices in Mumbai. When one gets there, the management politely tells you that you need the permit...

... which is only available at their office on the mainland!

The Photon

16:35

@AnindoGhosh Geniuses

Anindo Ghosh

Also, if I recall, the permit can be obtained only on the day you want to shoot, and is valid for that single day alone. Yeah, it's some measly Rs. 20, but basically it doesn't work out.

rawbrawb

@AnindoGhosh this reminds me of story from my Dad. Crossing bridge with a large truck, pulls in, "you can't cross without permit", drives back across bridge, gets permit, drives back across bridge, gives them the permit. 3 crossings in total.

Anindo Ghosh

@rawbrawb Add to that, the permit office on the mainland only opens post lunch, and the sunlight starts diminishing by the time you cross back.

The Photon

@AnindoGhosh No option to pay Rs 100 cash after you get to the island?

Anindo Ghosh

You'd think so, right? It's the perfect set-up. But nope!

rawbrawb

16:40

@AnindoGhosh procedural barriers, the hidden power of bureaucracy.

Anindo Ghosh

@rawbrawb I know!

A funny story around this photo I just uploaded.

rawbrawb

@AnindoGhosh it's good article, you come across well.

surprisingly ....

Anindo Ghosh

@rawbrawb Thank you :-)

rawbrawb

is that the Arc d'triumph ? ;)

Anindo Ghosh

So yeah... funny story to do with cops (this actually got written up in the magazine I was on assignment for at the time)... So I was shooting Delhi's India Gate monument (which you see in that photo), the editorial brief being to show how lively the area around it is in the evenings, with kids, ice cream vendors, balloon sellers etc.

@rawbrawb Same architect.

Well, I have my permits, my press authorizations, all of that. I've set up my tripod with widely extended legs at near ground level, I'm shooting upward so I actually lie on the ground to get the shot. Cops arrive, ask me what I am doing.

Before I can speak, senior cop arrives, tells them "He has a camera, so he must be taking photos, right?" I was very impressed.

The Photon

16:45

@AnindoGhosh That's why he's the senior cop.

Insight

AshRj

Exactly ^

Anindo Ghosh

Next thing you know, these half a dozen cops are busy moving everyone out of my frame, so that I have an unobstructed view - much against my protests. So much for an environmental representative shot!

rawbrawb

@AnindoGhosh actually different architect - but the Paris one was the inspiration...

@AnindoGhosh from one extreme to the other.

Anindo Ghosh

So I explain that I need the scene to be as it naturally is, I don't want a bare and sanitized view. Senior cop gets called on the wireless, because junior cops don't get it.

@rawbrawb Oh? I was ill-informed, sorry.

The Photon

What's the rules in India about needing permission to shoot people in the street? In the US you're basically cool if you're in a public place. I think in Europe it's a lot more difficult.

rawbrawb

16:48

@AnindoGhosh 1806 vs. 1931 very old dude.

Anindo Ghosh

@ThePhoton Same - From a public place, at public property, and covering only public spaces, no permissions needed by the actual law - as long as a private individual is not the sole subject.

rawbrawb

@AnindoGhosh so did the Jr. guys start lining people up and say "act naturally or else!"?

AFK BRB

AshRj

@ThePhoton Also, nobody cares. Registering a complaint and getting some action on it is more of a hassle.

The Photon

@AnindoGhosh US is looser: As I understand it, anything you can see from a public space is fair game. Obviously there are things that will tick people off regardless of

Anindo Ghosh

@ThePhoton However, the actual law differs from practice: You are at the mercy of the local LE, totally about their whims and fancies. If you show them the law references (which I carry with me on shoots), they just switch to "OK, I can't arrest you, but your camera could accidentally break if you don't leave NOW, and then you can go and try to get a police report registered even to claim insurance".

The Photon

16:52

@AnindoGhosh Hooray for arbitrary power!

Anindo Ghosh

The street beat constables don't even bother with such statements, they just use a stick to hit you AND your camera. Happened a couple of times to colleagues, fortunately I always shoot from out of the way places, so I've only just watched the mayhem, never been a victim of physical "convincing"

Another funny story. But first, the relevant image for that story, too.

Was out to shoot that image, for one of my exhibitions, "The Night is Alive".

Police Officer (not constable) arrives. Asks me what I'm doing. My assistant explains that I'm a "famous" photographer and I specialize in night photography... and shows him permits, paperwork, newspaper clippings, and the poster for the upcoming exhibition (while I continue to keep my shutter open, it was a long exposure).

Officer reads all of this, then says "OK, pack up and leave NOW or I will arrest you..." And the best is yet to come.

"Next time, do all this night photography only in the daytime. It is not allowed on my shift".

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