Electrical Engineering

Kortuk

05:39

@clabacchio I am really enjoying your thesis so far.

I should finish it in about 14 hours

Kortuk

06:31

@jippie Morning mate!

jippie

@Kortuk I was conditioned to just click the top left room

@Kortuk but the rooms had changed positions

you guys shouldn't play hide an go seek so early in my morning

or at least not with me

Kortuk

06:55

@jippie :)

jippie

Don't laugh at me.

@Kortuk You had your last day of work? (for now)

I'm 27 hours away from leaving for Belgian waterfalls ;o)

Kortuk

@jippie I am all done.

I will be on tomorrow surfing the webs and stuff

and the day after

then I start the drive

and next week is an exciting one for the site.

jippie

@Kortuk ?

@Kortuk is SE being sold to Microsoft?

Kortuk

@jippie WHO TOLD YOU!

Im not telling, it is a reason to visit :)

jippie

:|

jippie

07:11

@Kortuk shouldn't tags 'device' 'parts' 'components' not be all the same tag?

Kortuk

@jippie Yes?

@jippie I dont think any should be tags

jippie

@Kortuk they all exist though. Haven't given that option any thought, but you may just be right about that.

Kortuk

to do a tag use [tag: and then the name then a ]

jippie

@Kortuk honk twice if you like device parts and components

oh cool :)

Kortuk

and i think it is [meta-tag: for the meta site link

jippie

07:41

next time I get myself a new kitten, I want one of those bald ones ... :s

I'm off to work @Kortuk. Enjoy your evening.

Kortuk

07:56

@jippie Will do mate, you have fun.

jippie

16:31

@Kortuk oh I didn't see my assignment for today until now

that's too bad as I haven't got a lot of time for it this evening either

clabacchio

@Kortuk great!!!

you don't know how nice is to hear this

jippie

16:48

?

@clabacchio I am a curious guy

can I see what your remark is about? is there some shortcut in the chat?

Tony Stewart

17:46

Where's that Federico cowboy

Kortuk

He has never joined chat

Tony Stewart

I wish people who presume too much keep their negative comments to themselves

For example jacks, a newbie, does not want a firmware solution with uC and prefers a reliable 555 solution and Stevenh and federico make off-handed comments that my solution does not meet the requirements cause its not a 555 but instead 1/2 a NAND gate with RCD filter

it makes the forum look childish and their presumptions are likely wrong.. if it is a better solution why use a 555 that the guy has been struggling for 2 weeks on when a dead simple NAND gate does a better reliable job

I will refrain from negative comments in question... but I think there are too many critics and not enough solution thinkers

Kortuk

@TonyStewart Users share their opinion and the site votes on what they agree with. They can say all they want, if users disagree with that stance they will not vote on it. If you have someone whom is being actually abusive flag a moderator, I will come clear that up.

Tony Stewart

This seems to be a common issue in stackexchange. for some teason

I just challenge the notion that people think there is ONLY one ANALOG solution and it has to be a 555 because they dont have experience to know better and then other so called experts chime in.. thats not what they want.. they want a 555 even if it is marginal

Kortuk

@TonyStewart Umm, there is never just one solution, a lot of hobbyists keep the 555 timers around because of how flexible it is. It may really be that the 555 timer is better for their application.

Tony Stewart

17:53

Its not a question of abuse but the narrow minded attitude and negative attitude is counted by peeps whodont know the answer but are big onbeing critics

not really

it might but if you spent as much time as I did seeing jacks Struggle with the 555.. you would know whyDavid calls it the 666 timer

and why my solution was elegantly more reliable and simpler... but thats just my opinion

Federico was the trigger before and he has not stopped his inflamatory tactics.. its not abuse.. just critical , inflamatory and unhelpful

Kortuk

@TonyStewart Hahah. I know multiple people whom keep them around, I dont have any emotional stake in this, I really dont care what analog solution is used, I would also pick the lowest cost solution for myself.

Tony Stewart

agreed

I cant tell who prefer firmware solutions and who dont, but it a mistake of rookies to force designs to implement a chip without any good reason given. As a mentor or supervisor , I would always question bad assumptions of choosing a method before chosking the specs or performance expected

"generalization" my colleagues at BNR, Northern Telecom, Bristol Aerospace and I commonly called" being "too implementation specific"

choosing*

Kortuk

@TonyStewart I do realize that you had issues with federico before, but he is trying to have a technical discussion, which is an important part of the site.

@TonyStewart The chat lets you edit for something around 5 minutes.

Tony Stewart

Federico is not really that technical.. just critical of my solutions without basis other than " it has to be done with an LM555. OP said so in a comment, and @stevenvh also emphasized this. – Federico Russo when jacks actually said" I am a newbie and want to use 555 reliably" I pointed out a race condition.. he fixed then he created a run re-trigger time. anyways.. FYI

I think he was almost at a solution when Steven and then Federico started with the > thats not what he wanted routine.... after I pointed out he was not using Reset effectively and a Schmitt NAND was far simpler.

Kortuk

@TonyStewart You mean when the original poster is choosing to use a chip in their question?

@TonyStewart What question is this?

Tony Stewart

18:07

yes and was a self proclamed newbiw

why is this diode here?

I am tolerant to other solutions, but I also respect his restrictions, whether he chose them himself or not. That's why I don't post an answer, though I have it all worked out. (BTW, I did not downvote your answer.) — stevenvh 2 hours ago

the diode is there because some designer does not know how to use a 555 with the reset signal input

but I said instead there are better solutions and suggested 2

I do not find this line of criticism common in other forums.. rather .. suggest other analog solutions are possible... that may be more reliable, cheaper or simple

Kortuk

@TonyStewart The issue here is that the user is not asking for design advice, he is asking for explanation of another design.

Tony Stewart

here it seems to be a way of venting.. in a somewhat low level way to criticize before proving assumptions that the person had a good reason for making a statement.. as many change their mind.. it s always good for designs to teach open minds and not closed minded thinking

He spent 2 weeks trying to get it work

he undertands how it works in his own explanation

it just does not do what he wants

yes he answers his own questions later

but then realizes it wont work

Kortuk

That did not link correctly, he introduction material is useless, he seems to just be asking about function.

Tony Stewart

in short the diode does what the RESET- does already

but no one was offering ideas except me

then stevenh suggested a pic

he says no way

Kortuk

@TonyStewart That is well and good, but that is not the question that was asked, He asked a poor question, this is why someone posting a broad unclear question should clear it up before we start answering.

Tony Stewart

18:14

then federico piped in after jack changed his design 3 times

My motto is refine the specs before considering any design.... He had a simple Finite state and could not define it properly

My solution works as well as his requirements are stated

anyhow.. this issue I raised is about attitudes and not how competent the newbie is.. I am tolerant of any level of skill

sure you can say the question was poor... agreed.. but I expect more professional attitudes from frequent contributotrs

capiche?

Kortuk

@TonyStewart The issue seems to be here that you are not considering dissent professional.

It should be okay for someone to say why they disagree.

@TonyStewart Yes, he was a newbie, but we should have stopped him and asked him to clarify his question and what he was looking for as the experienced users.

Tony Stewart

I understood what he wanted already.. and did not need much more

but he went into unnecessary detail

to try and explain his own 6 questions

no one else helped

Kortuk

@TonyStewart The question was asking why that circuit operated the way it did and design concerns, which is a different but useful discussion to have.

Tony Stewart

Actually more accurate is why it does not work

Kortuk

@TonyStewart Honestly, the question he asked almost made me moderator trigger and stop him with a close and ask what it was that he really needed to know, but he seemed to have some clear concerns to discuss, so I left it alone for him to play with.

Tony Stewart

18:21

my generai answer was that this method leads to poor timing margins with analog addons to the 555 for digital edge triggered solutions

good choice..

I hope this narrow minded thinking of Federico stops and we verify if user really MUST have a chip or simply wants to avoid firmware and will consider any equivalent cct that works

newbies need to learn that there are more than one solution

Kortuk

@TonyStewart But again, the user was not asking for a solution.

Tony Stewart

yes he was

Kortuk

@TonyStewart He was asking for analysis of a design.

@TonyStewart Not in the question I read. That is why users are disagreeing with you.

Tony Stewart

read again

in one of his answers he states..."Please feel free to correct or improve me."

Kortuk

@TonyStewart In his answer?

Tony Stewart

18:27

that means improve the design

he added an answer rather than edit the question

a rather long winded answer

Kortuk

@TonyStewart Right, this is not how our site works.

Tony Stewart

right

Kortuk

@TonyStewart I noticed that.

@TonyStewart You cant answer his answer, this is not a normal forum, you answer for the question posted.

Tony Stewart

but back to my issue with Federico.. and his lack of input except critical of other solutions

Kortuk

@TonyStewart The reason you feel that way here is because he is judging vs the question, which is what you are supposed to do.

jippie

18:30

Hi @Kortuk and @TonyStewart

Kortuk

@TonyStewart I have noticed a place where you have stated in an answer, "please let me know if this is what you want and I will elaborate." This is not how our site works and I think might be a source of some of these issues.

@jippie Evening Matey!

Tony Stewart

I see .. others seems to add questions after solutions too

jippie

I didn't follow the whole discussion guys, but I tried to figure out @TonyStewart => did you ask the OP why he wants to use a 555?

Tony Stewart

not directly.. good suggestion

Kortuk

@TonyStewart Yes, just because some users do it does not make it right, I have seen russell do this often and it is something he should not do.

jippie

18:32

That gives an opportunity to realise there may be other options

Tony Stewart

I suggested why it was a bad choice due to timing marginal noise issues using diodes on timer input

jippie

and it gives you a chance to understand why this 555 is so important

Tony Stewart

and why it was a bad implementation

Kortuk

@jippie The user asked a question and wrote an answer to show that is not really what he wants, but the question is well formulated and users have downvoted @TonyStewart for not answering the question.

jippie

maybe S/T NAND's aren't what he has lying arond on his desk

hmm

I've been trying to catch up with reading for over 10 minutes, but didn't fully manage that, so my ideas may be a little off

Tony Stewart

18:34

If I were stuck on an island with only a 555, I might consider it as a last resort.

jippie

26 minutes until beer o'clock

Kortuk

@jippie Ha.

Tony Stewart

People who do not take care of decoupling for analog and digital inputs on 555 run into race issues on logic and glitch issues on ingress from ripple on input

oh that reminds me I have 23 litres of wine to bottle

jippie

wine is to drink, not to bottle

Tony Stewart

yah maybe I just pour from carboy into jugs

I chose a winery to get some grapes fermented into wine .. Its not smelling up here.

added oak chips and peppercorns to Shiraz

Kortuk

18:39

@TonyStewart I have never run into issues with that when I have used 555 timers.

jippie

@TonyStewart carboy?

Tony Stewart

name of 23 litre jug for fermentation

"technical name" used by wine makers

Carboy

A carboy is a rigid container with a typical capacity of 5 to 15 gallons (20 to 60 L). Carboys are primarily used for transporting fluids, often water or chemicals. They are also used for in-home fermentation of beverages, often wine. Brewing In brewing, a carboy is also known as a demijohn. It is a glass or plastic vessel used in fermenting beverages such as wine, mead, and beer. Usually it is fitted with a rubber stopper and a fermentation lock to prevent bacteria and oxygen from entering during the fermentation process. During the homebrewing process, a primary carboy is used for ...

W5VO

If it is a realistic option, I will prefer a 555 timer because my groomsman gave me 100 of them at my wedding

Unfortunately I rarely find that it is a good solution

Tony Stewart

Kortuk when you use a diode to clamp the cap when the timer runs out. and then it retriggers at same time.. is called a race condition.. when he was wanting to ignore puses less than 200mS

jippie

I'm planning to program an ATtiny13 into a 555 compatible chip, to close the gap between guys that want a 555 and guys that want a micro

Tony Stewart

18:44

it is a useful window comparator for RS dual thresholds

but prone to noise from assuming newbies and 3 foot wires and no decoupling caps

I like using gates as linear amps instead of Op Amps.. get 6 to a package with gain = 1000

Kortuk

@TonyStewart I know what a race condition is ><

Tony Stewart

He had one at first

Kortuk

@TonyStewart I never said he did not, just that I have never had issues with not decoupling causing problems.

Tony Stewart

and too many other issues, which is why I suggested the LS123 and then came down with an elegant simple SCH NAND solution

W5VO

@TonyStewart But then it lost the race and one signal won :)

@TonyStewart Honestly, it isn't a good question and I think it should be closed. It is essentially an over constrained problem

Tony Stewart

18:48

I first came across race conditions a Seismic recorder with BCD minute second timer for cassette FM recorder.. the PhD Physics student who designed it . had several race conditions.. It took me months to get the next dozen units working properly because of vendor variances and race conditions...

I think the newbie should be asked to close it himself

W5VO

@TonyStewart But that's OUR job as people experienced with the site.

Tony Stewart

or say it is answered himself unless he wants more clarification why you do not need a diode and can use the reset instead

anyhow I hope that cowboy gets less critical and more open minded or silent

otherwise . i shall find more friendly forums with professional attitudes

Kortuk

@W5VO It seems like the question just is wanting some design information. I almost took action when I first saw it, but I was not sure. the fact no one has actually answered his questions is a sign.

Tony Stewart

He wanted to discover on his own with help

thats ok

the last question I answered on the properties of Caps

which is very important something they do not teach

Why can't we use ceramic capacitors here for C1 and C2?

which i correctly answer and showed tantalum then plastic are preferred for long times

Kortuk

@TonyStewart The feedback he gave you is reasonable. If this is something that is making you want to quit the site then I am going to suggest that it might not be a better fit.

Tony Stewart

18:54

I tink it is ok to answer your own question... The only Question remaining is Question#6.

criticizing an expert to suggest a simpler solution to a newbie is reasonable... hmm

ok if that is how you want to run it

then I see why there are such attitudes

Kortuk

@TonyStewart I am using the reply link. Hold on on things, I am targeting my responses to things you have posted. There is an arrow that shows what message I respond to, if that was not already clear.

I am doing two things right now, if you need my uninterrupted attention you have to give me a moment.

I leave on vacation in 2 days and I am finishing some plans over the phone.

W5VO

@TonyStewart He specifically said one of his constraints was using a 555. Your answer, while it did satisfy every other constraint, failed to satisfy the 555 requirement. I don't think your answer is a bad idea, but it isn't an answer that matches the question criteria.

atomSmasher

Is it common for a stepper motor to reverse direction when the load is too much?

W5VO

A small PIC could solve his circuit requirements as well, but I would expect an answer that only suggested a PIC to be downvoted BECAUSE it ignored the constraints, not whether or not it was a good answer on its technical merits.

Kortuk

@TonyStewart It is definitely okay to answer your own question.

Tony Stewart

19:05

How may I send messages direct to a user ?

Kortuk

@TonyStewart There are multiple things you might mean by that. If you mean privately, you cant.

Tony Stewart

yes

ok

Kortuk

Private communication is not an intention of SE. I can make a private chat room, but that is supposed to be for specific moderation issues only.

Tony Stewart

n.p.

W5VO

If I wanted to build a 100W radio using only 741 op-amps, then I have overconstrained the problem and there is not a reasonable solution.

Tony Stewart

19:08

I get PM for special requests or clarification and also requests to be aded to my friends list on other sites... because of their preference to know one with 35 yrs experience I got > 100 friends in last month

Kortuk

@atomSmasher I have never heard of this, but if a stepper motor does not have power it will not hold position.

Tony Stewart

W5VO i remember being impressed with a rack of crown 300A's in parallel

Kortuk

@TonyStewart You discussed the other site you were on before, I was interested in what other sites were similar to this. Can you give me a link to the site?

Tony Stewart

it was a seismic experience with quadraphonic 15" woofers

at a french canadian disco in the 80's

its the eda forum kortuk

atomSmasher

@kortuk thank you. I didn't think it was possible either. I am still looking into it! I will let you know what I find.

Kortuk

19:10

@TonyStewart Can you link?

Tony Stewart

not handy

Kortuk

edaboard.com ?

Tony Stewart

@atomSmasher brushless magnet motors have a problem with hall sensors when out of alignment and motor dithers back and forth

yep

W5VO

@Kortuk I've used that site for some IC stuff before

Tony Stewart

Steppers will skip or jump back if there is backlash in load

i.e. backlack torque or excess load

jippie

19:12

@W5VO wonder how that would look like ... bunch of 741 parallel feeding a 100m\$Omega\$ load

Tony Stewart

backlash is like a rebound or echo to a force

Kortuk

@jippie Sorry, no nice latex

W5VO

@jippie at one point I had contemplated using 7400 series open collector buffers in parallel to create a RF amplifier

Kortuk

@W5VO I am trying to get an idea of when I will drop through town mate. I am hoping to plan for lunch time, but I will see.

Tony Stewart

impedance of a 100nW RTC timer running off 1V is actually 10MΩ

W5VO

19:15

@Kortuk no problem, the only complication is that my mother-in-law will be in town

Tony Stewart

W5V0 I figured out how to use a gas tube as an RF amplifier in the tunnelling negative resistance mode.. then a guy who did not believe me show me his AC surge protection

atomSmasher

@tonyStewart crap! It seems like if I help pull the load, just a slight bit, it does ok. But it's not like I am pulling hard. I am running a 277 oz-in stepper with a 20 pitch rack and pinion (14.5 degrees). If I try and slow it down it gets worse.

Tony Stewart

atom.. may I sugest what I have seen on HDD's in the 80's a rotary viscous damper also used in Sygate HDD cartridge ddrives

Kortuk

@W5VO Haha! What places were you suggesting for Little Rock again?

Tony Stewart

the half steps or PWM lose a lot of torque unless done right with 4 quadrant H drivers

atom are u using 4 quadrant totem pole drivers?

jippie

19:17

@Kortuk you use this arrow thingy to indicate what you are replying to, right? and when I hover over your message, the linked message is highlighted, right?

Tony Stewart

or H drivers?

atomSmasher

@tonyStewart - That is a good point. I have seen dampers used in the past. Unfortunately, this motor is not a dual shaft.

Kortuk

@jippie Yes.

W5VO

@Kortuk the Rivermarket is next to the Clinton Library, so that can be a good place for food. The capitol building is a smaller version of the US congress building, so that's also something to see

jippie

@Kortuk what if the message being highlighted has scrolled wayyy from screen, can I still easily find it back?

Tony Stewart

19:18

this was single shaft but with band gear drive over viscous flywheel

Kortuk

@W5VO What museum did you mention, or did I imagine that?

@jippie click on the arrow at the front of my message.

Tony Stewart

rather band drive with a ratio

W5VO

museumofdiscovery.org/visit

Tony Stewart

atom if stall torque drops rapidly with speed control.. it is a driver issue... not being low ESR enough to hold position or maybe microstepping loses toomuch torque for instability of load

jippie

@Kortuk Then what?

Kortuk

19:21

Nope, not there, the arrow that was right next to the @ sign for my name, click that

W5VO

also the old state house, some art stuff, and the historic arkansas museum

Kortuk

@W5VO Ha, I am going to find the art stuff :)

We were also looking at crystal bridges

jippie

@Kortuk think I got it, thnx

atomSmasher

@tonyStewart - I am not sure. Here is a PDF of my chip.

W5VO

@Kortuk I've heard that's also very nice, but not in little rock

Tony Stewart

19:23

@atomSmasher how much backlash on rack and pinion?

Kortuk

@W5VO I ws looking at it.

@atomSmasher btw, most of what you are asking you could formulate into a question and probably get some great answers on the site.

W5VO

@Kortuk It's usually pretty busy during the weekend. I think they had one of the copies of the declaration of independence

Kortuk

@W5VO Any other things you "Have to do" in little rock?

@W5VO interesting.

atomSmasher

Ok! I will make up a question. I will post a link Tony.

W5VO

@Kortuk crystalbridges.org/Exhibitions/Declaration

Kortuk

19:25

@W5VO Pretty cool

W5VO

@Kortuk they have trails across the dam and a railroad bridge, which is kinda interesting

I think they started restricting access to the lock a few years ago

Kortuk

I am driving to the cafe, time for my tea and bagel.

brb

jippie

@Kortuk enjoy

W5VO

@Kortuk there's also infamous central high

Kortuk

@W5VO ha, no.

jippie

19:30

Say there is an average of 10 new questions per day on EE. When I leave for holiday for 4 weeks, that'd be ... just under 300 questions. That would cost me an extra week just to read all the new questions :|

Tony Stewart

@atomSmasher I think 4W1-2-Phase Excitation has lowest torque but highest resoltuion

jippie

I think I better don't leave for holidays

Kortuk

@jippie Yes, and people are surprised that moderators sometimes miss questions.

@TonyStewart I missed all the details, but I thought torque was the occurring issue.

Tony Stewart

yes but even at lower speeds

jippie

@Kortuk that is why you are a moderator and I'm not ;o)

BTW @TonyStewart thnx for your answer on the 20mA LED's. I'm not quite understanding everything you wrote, have to reread it after the weekend (as I'm going away for the weekend tomorrow)

Tony Stewart

19:34

ok which part>

thermal insulation of epoxy>

jippie

don't know, I was reading it this morning (about 12 hours ago). I think it is pretty much because english isn't my native language,

Tony Stewart

which is native.. I can try translator and then back to english to see how to improve it

you are welcome on the details... I tried to explain as many reasons as I could.. but sometimes.. it gets long

jippie

@TonyStewart no worries, I leave the page open in my browser and ask specific questions after the weekend if still necessary

Tony Stewart

in any case some specs remain benchmarks due to so many reasons.. but thermal packaging limitations of clear epoxy are the factors for 3,4,5mm LEDs which are still issues with power LEDs all rated at 350mA.. you can drive them at 1A but have a hard time keeping them cool

Zharga is trying to standardize LED engines but has not come up with electrical stds yet for interface.. only mechanical

but at least 20mA is a standard... imagine if everyone use different standards.. for Imax

so the clever reason they kept the 20mA standard is so they show differences in the derating curves at max temp.

but then there are measurement issues and reliability is not always about temperature of junction but other stress factors like leakage in package, RH%, stress, etc

jippie

@TonyStewart What is an 'LED engine'?

Tony Stewart

19:45

a standard power LED such as a 10W module or a 50W or 100W

standard package interface , size, etc

not no driver standard yet

but*

Kortuk

and back

jippie

@Kortuk this time google was faster

Kortuk

@jippie Ha.

@jippie I am going to try to check in next week each day with the site during my travel, but it will be much much less then normal.

jippie

@Kortuk My girlfriend used to say "Oh, you're so funny." to me

Kortuk

@jippie Then she found someone that was funny? ;)

atomSmasher

19:53

@tonyStewart - Do you know what the 4W1-2 stands for? I am trying to decipher if a motor controller subdivision of 1/16 is the same thing.

Kortuk

@TonyStewart In chat you can edit, I am not sure where that but was intended to be, but if you notice an error just click onthe previous post and edit.

jippie

They just might start firing people at my work later this year :-/ maybe I should reconsider a carreer in electronics

Kortuk

@jippie Ouch, why?

jippie

bad economic i guess? Bad performance of some business units.

On the other hand my BU isn't doing too bad at all.

@Kortuk but I think it is no good for the spirit.

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