As in 5 vs 7 or 201 vs 203?

what I migh do is factor the TWF rogue with Advantage on the first attack, but only adjacency on the second...

@GMNoob this is at L11, so 29 for the bow, 28 for the TWF

here's the thing, they almost are the same thing.

because the bulk of the rogue's damage is from SA, rolling twice and taking the highest, and making 2 attacks, is effectively the same

the only real difference is between 2d6 and 1d8 damage

Ah right

(ok, so I assume rapier rather than short bow...but whatever)

short bow would be d6, so it's probably even closer

we had this convo before

Elf with longbow :)

I think so

fair enough, but we're going racially independent. But much like in 4e, what weapon the rogue uses matters much less than actually hitting

At level 20 the elf and lucky halfling had same damage

yep

At 11 the fighter outclasses the rogue for damage

almost 100 points

It's nice that the rogue builds are balanced with each other :)

agreed

no trap choices there

And the wizard is 300 points above the figther?

@GMNoob not sure yet.

we'll see what happens

@GMNoob probably closer to 1000

are the results so far, last night the L10 wizard got to 1500

cries on the inside

The big problem is that on nearly every action the wizard is affecting multiple targets with about 10 more damage than the rogue is capable of against a single, and about 30 more than the fighter. I'm going to do some more studying, but it's going to take a ton of rounds of combat to bring the wizard back to the pack

let me finish this analysis and I'll play with the numbers

if you discount action surge, the fighter and rogue are about the same. And every round the wizard is forced to cast a cantrip instead of a slotted spell, they pick up 2 rounds on her. Making up the difference will take them...500 rounds of combat (I think?)

And if you assume single target?

@GMNoob always with the wizard? still outclasses, but not as much. Let me get this punched in and I can play

the more I think about this the more I think wizard numbers should be single target

Just as we don't take into account cleric buffing in the numbers

@GMNoob Let's do it both ways.

then we can present it as a range

Right

fun number porn. How many dice rolls to get to level 20 assuming level appropriate challenges :)

L11 numbers:

the wizard constrained to only single target damage kind of blows (that's a little bit due to sub optimal choice making to make the math a touch easier, but not enough of it that I feel bad presenting it)

and the accuracy adjustment brings the MT wizard back to the pack a bit as well.

The single target numbers should be below everyone else

Since there is a big boost to multiple targets

How easy is it for you to calculate the number of targets needed to make the wizard about equal?

@GMNoob just changed the sheet to make it easy. 1.5

1.5 targets puts them on part with the fighter

So, that's actually interesting

not sure what it means, but it's not what I expected

1.25 puts them...on par or so(I had magic missile's damage calculated wrong re: multiple targets)

I expected some number between 2 and 3

@GMNoob every single power is multi targets

So a small increase is multiplied greatly

The bigger thing would actually be to extend combat by 2 more encounters and see what happens.

@waxeagle So the only single target ability the wizard has is cantrip?

@waxeagle yes, lets!

@GMNoob more or less

So, we go from 160, to 260, to 540 roughly?

you know I got excited when I had a helmed horror in dead in thay, as the wizard's fireball just wrapped around it (it gets 100 percent immunity to 3 wizard spells) but the monster that is specifically anti-wizard failed against the wizard because it only has +5 5o hit on its attack and even with a multi attack (two attacks) it whiffed both times because 1 the wizard had cast mage armor and wa at 16 ac and 2 he had an aura that imposed disadvanatage for all melee atttacks aginst him

All melee? I thought it used a reaction.

(that's 6 combats at L11)

Why does the cleric scale so much worse than the others?

@GMNoob their at-wills suck

they got a bit better, hold on

Fighter's at-will every turn is ~30, Rogue ~30, Wizard ~15, Cleric ~8

Cause of potent cantrip?

for the wizard I mean

So honestly, based on game play, I never would have realized that the cleric does so much less damage than the others.

@GMNoob no, empowered evocation

@waxeagle So it's a school bonus?

and a d10 + crit chance cantrip vs a d8 save cantrip

@GMNoob yes. (that's a big part of the damage bonus too for the wizzy)

these are all evocation spells

btw, how are you factoring in spiritual weapon?

(over 6 combats)

that's a huge boost

@GMNoob on melee attacks only

@GMNoob also wrong...

i don't have an easy way to factor it out, I thought I did but I changed a ton of other stuff

1000 vs 1500?

Ah ok

(like all the to-hit mods)

and save DCs

that's what a wizard would do with a 10 int :)

@waxeagle I mean, are you having spiritual weapon take up 4 attacks, but then also do damage for all 16?

@GMNoob ooh yeah, Spiritual weapon. yeah, it consumes an action, so basically it's cast first round of combat 6 times, and continues to do damage the rest of the time

(cleric I didn't modify to single target only, because he's already so badly in the hole)

cast 3 times as a L4 spell, and 3 times as a L2 spell

yeah, not my expectation.

So a cleric is actually helping hte party more by not attacking and doing other cool stuff :P

Ok, next thing I want to look at. longer combats. 4 10 round combats

watch the cleric shine

(at least way brighter than he did)

Why is the rogue doing the same damage but the fighter isn't? Action surge?

@GMNoob yes

the fighter loses 12 attacks

And the cleric does better because of spiritual weapon?

@GMNoob yes

and the wizard does the same because...? :P

@GMNoob no concentration spells going on

so arcane recovery isn't as impactful as it sounds?

well at low levels it is I guess

@GMNoob it only happens 1/day

ah!

So, is the lesson from this that multiple encounters doesn't have that big of an effect on output, but longer encounters do?

erm, relative output

@GMNoob for the cleric, yes. But he's the only one it matters to

the cleric (sort of) prefers fewer longer encounters, the fighter prefers more short ones

and it's not exactly preference, it's more um...efficacy...more or less

I see

you turning this all into a blog post?

@GMNoob yeah, I need to do L17, and rework L1 and L5 a little bit. Probably going to use our block of Tofu for all the levels, present the wizard both ways, and get each level into it's own sheet

Awesome

You should share the excel sheet to if you can. [halo]

@GMNoob It's google docs, so it's shareable. I'll have to organize it better

awesome

got to run

I look forward to playing with it, if possible :)

I feel like whilly nilly mixing playtest with basic is going to turn out bad

← 1 message moved from RPG General Chat

agreed

oh so its all officially/unofficially going to be here

gotcha

5e has been banned from main chat because it turned poisonous. This is the pressure valve.

no it totally makes sense

I wasnt online when this and magician's room got made so I didnt know when/how/what the decision was

There's a pin in the main room for the start of it.

cool

now back to relearning css and html!

Why do you think it will be bad?

What could possibly go wrong? /last words

there were suitable enough changes to how core features like advantage worked that there should be a fair number of cascade effects

exactly

What change was there to advantage?

I read the alpha book and there are significant crunch changes but nothing that a single month of playing should notice , I think.

Like +1 here, a different d6 there, and so.

Though I didn't look in depth

As I've proposed in the past, changes don't have to be major in order to have a cumulative interactive impact on the system gestalt.

advantage and disadvantage had stacks

you still only had one or the other happen once

but if you got advantage from 2 different sources and disadvantage from 1 source you still had advantage in playtest

vs. in basic where any existence of the opposite cancels both out

Advantage actually never stacked. It was clarified in rule of 3

Though There was a lot of confusion about that.

wizards.com/dnd/Article.aspx?x=dnd/4ro3/20120619

Huh, they stopped rule of 3 a long time ago

@waxeagle do you understand sevensided dies comment about the basic classes not changing?

@GMNoob a misread of the question?

But what in my answer causes that comment?

@GMNoob nothing?

"be aware that the actual 5e classes and subclasses are likely to change quite a bit" probably, but again, I'm guessing it's a misread

Ah, could be. K, I'll make that more clear

Wtf, lol

Voted to reopen

@GMNoob mxy being mxy

I'm finding it ironic how an answer which is trying to say there isn't much guidance is used as a reason to say that it's just a repetition of the rules

@GMNoob I rolled it back to the previous rev and will contest the closure without further edits.

Good, I was going to say something but I was afraid that would hurt more than help

Btw, what page is the advice in the starter set on?

@GMNoob its' in the adventure, i don't have a page # right off hand

I wanted to site my answer better

It can wait

Gah, dying phone battery

I don't undersand how that question rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/41852/what-is-inspiration is closed for being unclear and mine rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/44628/… gets a tag for possible duplicate. I'm starting to think the whole idea of trying to get questions for D&D 5E before it's published was a really REALLY bad idea

@MrJinPengyou yeah, it's not a duplicate since I rolled back my edit, and it shouldn't be closed as such.

I don't understand it either

There is an overactive banhammmer

@GMNoob more there is a general distrust of 5e questions which is unhealthy.

Some mods are hostile

@MrJinPengyou yes

I'm not sure how this is supposed to help the community in any way.

Is there anything we can do about it? Can mods lose their mod privileges after elections or something

@MrJinPengyou it's not quite that easy. elections are for life, but they can be removed or voluntarily retire. It takes a lot of work to have one removed (info here.

@MrJinPengyou the best thing to do would be to address specific situations on meta

@waxeagle I don't think addressing the issue in meta would be helpful. First I don't want to point names and this would end up being related to this meta.rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/3512/… and the mod in question would end up on defensive and probably even close the subject

@MrJinPengyou there is also the option to contact SE directly ("contact us" bottom of every page, choose Other). I don't think it would hurt for more people to contact them re: this issue.

I think the proper way to handle this would probably to open the question on meta, try not to be accusative just direct and polite and ask why the general behaviour of this mod is hostile (almost aggressive). If nothing good comes out of meta, then someone can contact SR directly

@MrJinPengyou I'm not opposed to this course of action.

@waxeagle It's not like it's truly disruptive (like outright deleting questions without reason) but just sad and annoying

@MrJinPengyou right. But it sets a certain tone for the site.

Wow, just caught a big error on my spreadsheet...was using .5 for the crit chance...

For all or just one class?

@GMNoob everyone :)

(impact varies though)

rogue was the biggest beneficiary

The logic is burning my head

12 votes on a short simple answer, 2 votes on a copy paste, and the claim is the answer to the question is a copy paste....

heh, and I'm actually pondering accepting the +2...

@MrJinPengyou It's only got one close vote, and isn't really a dupe, so it's fine

yeah, no one but the mods has single vote dupe close in 5e...

we're a long way from that

I'm still on the fence about the 5e inspiration question though

your one that i answered

we are getting some p. odd questions out of this new edition that aren't the kind we usually get

lots of "hey it's something totally new, what's with this?", not so much the usual "i am so confused oh god"