« first day (4 days earlier)      last day (17 days later) » 

JonathanReez
JonathanReez
08:46
@Relaxed are you launching rockets to space successfully or otherwise work on very impressive technology? Is your electrical grid very stable? Does the government have a monopoly on violence? Are people happy to invest into your country?
"Civilized" is not about the fate of one man or even a group of people, its about which countries propel humans as a species forward and which ones push us backwards
@Relaxed well, no, in the case of (say) Assad where his tribe of Alawites had the country in the chokehold for 40 years you can clearly see how a slip in human rights will lead to a collapse of civilization. America mistreating 1-2% of their citizens during WWII or up to 10% in the Jim Crow era was still ~irrelevant to how much progress American scientists have made, how much wealth Americans have built up, how much influence it had, etc
And, yes, this is also why China mistreating the Uyghurs is not preventing them from making giant strides in progress. The argument is only circular on your side where you deny a nation the title "civilized" if some % if oppressed.
The Soviet Union oppressed roughly 95% of citizens, that was waaay too much and the nation collapsed. The US never went beyond 10% and the nation is fine
@Relaxed how many of the bottom 5% poorest US counties have you visited in your life? I've been to the poorest counties/area of Sweden, Germany, France, Czech Republic, Slovakia and the US. There are some shocking poverty places in the US but mostly its about the same as Europe
As I've complained in another Politics.SE question, "poverty" is arbitrarily defined by relative measures and thus nobody actually knows how many people are "in poverty". Not to say there are zero of course, but its hard to compare to Europe
so IMO the only good solution is to go see it with your own eyes, talk to people, not read the stats
 
6 hours later…
JonathanReez
JonathanReez
14:59
I think that there’s this idealistic black and white idea of reality where true progress is only possible in a fair and just society. But in reality there’s always a threshold at which one can commit atrocities and still accomplish amazing discoveries
Americans launched the man on the moon barely a few years after schools in the south were desegregated. Russia launched the first person into space despite *waves hands*. China is doing great despite all the minority persecution. Low qualified foreigners without at least $1M in liquid assets are irrelevant to any self respecting western nation. You can treat them any way you want and still prosper.

Kinda like those peoples who said locking down harder would be good for the economy - and boy oh boy did republican states prove them wrong (and the U.S. as a whole proved the rest of the world …
Turns out you can let it rip, let 85 year olds die and… nothing happens, things go on as if nothing happened. Shocking for human rights and decency but that’s how our messed up world works. You can be 10% evil, 90% good and still come out ahead with zero punishment.
 
3 hours later…
Relaxed
Relaxed
18:32
@JonathanReez I don't see much that's worthwhile in all this.
You said “no major setbacks for human rights for citizens”, we are now at no human rights for anybody, “propel[ling] humans as a species” takes precedence.
There is nothing arbitrary in defining poverty by relative measures, that's what it is and it's a lot more important to me than some tiny sliver of humanity perpetuating itself on Mars or some other billionaire's wet dreams.
I have been to East Tampa just a couple of months ago, not the poorest in the US but pretty poor, what is that supposed to convince me of?

« first day (4 days earlier)      last day (17 days later) »