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00:00 - 17:0017:00 - 00:00

17:00
@RoryMcCune yeah - I waited about 10 days, then got one for each of the 2 email addresses I requested
17:20
question for the room... anyone played much with External Entity Expansion stuff in XML?
I found one the other day and got the basic grab /etc/passwd and return it working fine, but had problems with other files as they made the response invalid XML
So I was looking into whether it was possible to mark the entity as Not XML so the parser wouldn't barf
didn't get too far with the one in the app I was reviewing but wondered if anyone had seen an XML parser that lets you setup unparsed external entities?
XML already falls under the Dark Arts, so why not?
It seemed that the spec would allow for specification of a program which would then be used to parse the entity, looked like a good way to compromise systems if it worked...
JESUS! I've been trying to login to the chat for more than 15 minutes!
curse you linus for using 8 character indent!!!
chat.stackexchange.com/help is giving me green ok on all the tests, but whenever I go to the DMZ it tells me that "no referer present, this maybe due to browser config"
17:31
@Adnan weird
have you tried turning it off and then on again?
3
interesting Threatpost article on PCI fines: threatpost.com/en_us/blogs/…
@RoryAlsop Actually I have, and it fixed it. (restarted the browser and cleared cache & cookies)
@Adnan I assumed you had - was just being silly :-)
@Adnan Is it plugged in?
@ScottPack I tried to plug it in and out a couple of times, but it cause a short circuit after only 10 seconds of trying.
@ScottPack I'm sure you know all about this situation.
@Adnan Ah, this is one of the few times you want petroleum instead of water based.
17:40
@ScottPack I actually learned that the hard way, ALWAYS go water-based.
Daaamn!
That would cover minds for like.. 2 weeks!
Okay, security guys, here's a very interesting thing
@RoryAlsop This one is going to be very, very interesting.
haha the reviews are hilarious
I was talking to a friend, he told me that he can crash my linux box. (I have a linux box where I host free shell accounts for port-forwarding purposes)
I have set everybody's shells to /bin/false and when they connect they use -N, everything is sweet.
After a couple of minutes I saw that the CPU was at 100%
and 10 minutes later everything slowed down
15 minutes later I was able to do almost nothing with it, it just became unresponsive
17:47
@Kenny.
I have all the updates, I have very good firewall configs, I have connection limits for everybody.
Backtrack has a new name?
Also, hi everyone
@KennyRasschaert I was reading about that yesterday when muts tweeted it. I couldn't quite tell if Backtrack was being fully obsoleted or this was just a new project of theirs.
@KennyRasschaert hi
17:48
@Adnan Have you started looking through logs and such to see what was going o n?
@Kee
They seem to have dropped KDE as a desktop option
@KennyRasschaert @ScottPack As far as I can tell, they're re-branding BackTrack. This is the new brand.
@Xander That's rather what I was hoping for.
@KennyRasschaert Also went to Debian from Ubuntu. That right there is a benefit.
17:49
@ScottPack Yup. Sneaking motherfucker! Portforward looping
He setup a remote portforward and a local portforward both pointing at my box
ssh -N -L 9999:localhost:9999 user
ssh -N -R 9999:localhost:9999 user
then he telneted
and the machine went crazy
Resource exhaustion. Yummo.
and I have no idea how to fix it
luckily he's a close friend, so he won't fuck me up, I'm not sure about the other 50 something users
That's actually really interesting
@Iszi - did you see Kenny's link to the new BackTrack article (chat.stackexchange.com/transcript/message/8497789#8497789) - might need to make a new Community Ad :-)
do you have sysstat/sar running on that box?
17:56
@KennyRasschaert No, I don't really care about it
@Adnan I'm not sure if the loop or the use of telnet is scarier.
maybe setting nproc in limits.conf would be a quick fix
Port forwarding doesn't have a counter decrement, does it? :(
@RoryAlsop Hadn't noticed the link. But I am aware of the change. Looks like something we need to work on.
@JeffFerland actually I don't know why I allow telnet
@KennyRasschaert That's a great idea! Why didn't I think of that?! Thank you
17:59
I'm not sure that'd fix it
but I assume sshd just forks a zillion new processes when that type of attack happens
only if that assumption is correct setting nproc can stop it
It's a pretty reasonable assumption.
@KennyRasschaert I've changed it, I'll try to repeat what he did.
@JeffFerland By the way, telnet is allowed only locally. But still, I should disable it.
There's not much of a reason to have it installed at all.
i assumed he only used to create an arbitrary tcp connection
netcat could to the same
bash has a /dev/tcp/ builtin that can also do it
@KennyRasschaert True. telnet has almost no role in this
Yup, I can confirm. That didn't fix it
kern.openfiles is showing more than 10000
would it help if I set kern.maxfiles to a low number?
18:12
Yeah, I was going to bring up netcat but it's not installed by default on anything I know of. I didn't know about a bash builtin.
@ScottPack only learned about that one last week myself
it's very cool/handy
18:29
God damn it!!
He telneted from his own machine
@KennyRasschaert That's awesome.
Yup, I can confirm this. I used netcat localhost 9999
and it also crashed the machine
You'd have to be a really big asshoel to do this to crash a free ssh box
@Adnan You've been on the Internet before, right?
@Adnan At this point it's no longer about your free ssh box. You brought it to this room and now I'm (we are?) intrigued.
Someone here has to solve this.
I'm too busy solving this.
18:35
@ScottPack Yeah yeah, I'm not talking from a security point of view. I always assume that someone who knows everything I know about the system is day-and-night trying to compromise it
>Fatal Error: Error rewriting packets: From checksum.c:do_checksum() line 65:
length of data must be > 0
Fucking tcprewrite
@Adnan Oh, neither am I. I'm talking about the Greater Internet Fuckwad Theory.
18:51
Unless I understood this question incorrectly, do we have a new Dave?
19:06
To any IT Security newbies and anybody interested. Cryptography I at Coursera is starting on March 25th. I'm certainly gonna take it as I'm fairly new to the subject.
So SSH basically needs to decrement a packet's TTL just like a router would
But there's no TTL to decrement here. The analogy is good, though: port forwarding of SSH is like routing packets, except that it routes TCP connections which consume resources until closed. There is no loop-detection mechanism in that.
Sounds like a job for RFC!
Looks like we be Pope'n.
19:23
I feel special that I have the Guru badge that only 39 others have it. A badge shared with other great members like Thomas and Polynomial. But I can't help but to feel dirty for it's been awarded to me based on a shitty answer.
Damn it! Now I'm gonna keep thinking about it for a couple of days
@Adnan Get over it. Mine came from talking about right-clicking on webpages.
Look on the bright side. I also have that badge, so you can rest assured that only the greatest have received it.
@ScottPack That makes me feel better, thanks! :D
@JeffFerland Thank you
At least mine came from useful information, as opposed to something as silly as using a mouse.
Actually, I take that back. I don't have that badge. None of my 40+ score answers are accepted.
19:28
Yaaaay! Stackoverflow was mentioned here at 1:03 in the video.
@JeffFerland Oh good. We can rest assured that it's still worth something, then.
Ah ! When I look at my user page, "summary" tab, in the "badges" section ordered by class, it shows only gold badges. There's no room for other kinds of badges.
@ThomasPornin Show-off!
@Adnan What good would badges make, if not for showing off ?
I kinda believe that it is their point.
@ThomasPornin Check a couple 4-5 messages up, see the video (it's in 1:40 total).
19:33
@Adnan I cannot see videos here; connection through a phone, with a not-too-large quota.
@ThomasPornin Well, in summary, the guy is talking about how badges in Stackoverflow support the gamification of the whole concept, to encourage involvement and participation.
@Adnan He needs 1:40 to say "it is for showing off" ?
@ThomasPornin He's explaining the whole course, Stackoverflow was mentioned for 3 seconds
20:29
Here's a tip: Don't to try to eat your dinner while watching the latest episode of House of Lies.
They start off with a tour of the client's factory... dongs, dildoes, and vibrators as far the straight eye can see.
kind of unappetizing.
That reminds me. I wonder if the ole lady's seen Eyes Wide Shut....maybe I should add that to our Netflix queueueueueueue.
Shouldn't bother- it is a really bad film
21:00
@RoryMcCune try using <![CDATA[...]]>. You can put unformatted, non-xml, even binary data in there.
@AviD Except if the binary data happens to contain the 5D 5D 3E byte sequence, of course.
@ThomasPornin Of course.
@AviD This makes for some occasional fun bugs, which can turn into security holes.
@ThomasPornin Of course.
there are a whole pile of XML-specific interesting security bugs.
XML bomb is still the most fun.
5D 5D 3E byte sequence?
21:04
@AdamMcKissock ]]>
the terminating sequence for a CDATA section.
hahahaha
brilliant!
@AdamMcKissock if that amuses you, really do go look up XML bomb.
@AviD googles
havent done it in a few years, but I've made a dual-cpu Xeon with just oodles of server RAM, lock up to 100% CPU, multi-GB RAM usage, for as long as I chose to leave it like that....
<?xml version="1.0"?>
<!DOCTYPE lolz [
<!ENTITY lol "lol">
<!ENTITY lol2 "&lol;&lol;&lol;&lol;&lol;&lol;&lol;&lol;&lol;&lol;">
<!ENTITY lol3 "&lol2;&lol2;&lol2;&lol2;&lol2;&lol2;&lol2;&lol2;&lol2;&lol2;">
<!ENTITY lol4 "&lol3;&lol3;&lol3;&lol3;&lol3;&lol3;&lol3;&lol3;&lol3;&lol3;">
<!ENTITY lol5 "&lol4;&lol4;&lol4;&lol4;&lol4;&lol4;&lol4;&lol4;&lol4;&lol4;">
<!ENTITY lol6 "&lol5;&lol5;&lol5;&lol5;&lol5;&lol5;&lol5;&lol5;&lol5;&lol5;">
<!ENTITY lol7 "&lol6;&lol6;&lol6;&lol6;&lol6;&lol6;&lol6;&lol6;&lol6;&lol6;">
Classic
21:07
@AdamMcKissock and that's enough to do it.
I had seen a version of that for the C preprocessor. A sure way to kill a C compiler.
we used to sit around the server monitor, watching the task monitor, enjoying seeing those lines climb, climb, climb.
@AviD Simple pleasures from a more civilized age.
@ThomasPornin "Such passwords are generated randomly, so that they are individually strong"
"Individually strong" has a very interesting sound to it. Does it have any special meaning?
Why not say "they are strong"?
@AviD ah yes, but the problem then is that it tends not to expand the external entity if I do that...
21:13
@Adnan I like big words.
@ThomasPornin Since I don't know much stuff, when somebody like you says something, I'm not really sure is genuine or just plain sarcasm.
I meant to say that each password, taken in isolation, is strong, regardless of the fact that many of them are generated in sequence.
@Adnan If its him thats saying it, its sarcasm
And the best sarcasm is Truth.
@ThomasPornin I see. Thanks.
21:22
@RoryAlsop Is it a bad film or a bad movie?
Isn't one the 'merkin version of the other?
Many viewers make a distinction between film and movie. For instance, one would never refer to "Starship Troopers" as a film, but it is definitely a movie. Anna Karenina, however, would be called a "film".
And the douchebags that make such distinctions would never refer to one as the lower form.
Films dont exist any more
Starship Troopers is actually an excellent example, because it is simply terrible. It is, however, quite fun.
Not by the time you get to see it anyway
21:26
@AdamMcKissock IT SOUNDS BETTER ON VINYL!!
Oh. I tend to refer to them all as films unless specifically chatting with 'merkins, and then I call them movies
@ScottPack No, it doesnt. Vinyl is awful.
@AdamMcKissock Kids today.
Speaking of. Dinner time. Gentlemen. Adam.
@ScottPack I take solace in the fact that you'll be dead soon.
Rant time: dodgy SATA leads are the scourge of my life.
21:28
Vinyl sounds better in almost every instance
And every form of sound system sounds better than an ipod
@RoryAlsop If you call imperfections better, then yes
Including my old ghetto blaster with C60 cassette takes
@RoryMcCune well, it depends if you're using a DTD. see this simple wiki for example: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cdata#CDATA-type_attribute_value
@RoryAlsop I have a Cowon. Interface looks like it was designed by, well, who knows, but the sound quality is awesome.
@RoryAlsop nah, my dad still calls it a film.
21:29
Vinyl is just better quality than CD audio - because the imperfections CDs have are worse to the earv than the imperfections on vinyl
@RoryAlsop FLAC FTW
Who uses CDs these days?
@AdamMcKissock Me. Car doesn't play anything else.
But then, they're written by me from FLAC source, so that's acceptable, right?
Oh yeah - Flac is what I use in the car
@AviD just for your benefit, that's FLAC, not FLAK GUN ;) still on about the lair
But even then very few car stereos have acceptable sound quality
Imho
21:31
@AntonyVennard hahah, yes yes. Now I need to expand on that image.
Doesnt @ThomasPornin also have a lair? Or do bears just have caves?
@AviD yeah I was specifying the entity in the DTD using <!ENTITY test SYSTEM “/etc/passwd”> but unfortunately attempts to add CDATA to that statement didn't seem to work with that XML parser...
@AviD Sorry. I'm in a highly positive mood today. You think I'm overbearing in chat - should see me in real life. All my colleagues left early for the pub... whoops.
either way, it's hibernation time. Gnite.
I should have asked for a guided tour of the average israeli security guys lair ...
@RoryAlsop YES!
21:33
@RoryAlsop hehe, that's where we went for drinks
@RoryMcCune ah well, parser idiosyncracies are the bane of my bomb's boon.
Hahahaha - excellent. I approve. I especially like your staff and the dress code @avid
@RoryAlsop you still talking about that blonde waitress?
@RoryMcCune wait, did you use an <!ATTLIST etc?
@AviD She's probably a quarter of his age
@AdamMcKissock 45%. We asked.
Yep - and her choice of garb. Every evil lair needs blondes in outfits like that
21:36
@AviD well that was where I will admit to getting a touch confused. I can use an ENTITY and the substitute it but I was unclear on where the ATTLIST would come into it?
@RoryAlsop of course. Ban on booths babes notwithstanding.
@AviD Meh. Any hole's a goal.
and that's why I said she was @Lucas's type.
@AviD "just" a cave ? Even Batman has a cave !
@AdamMcKissock Kids these days.
@ThomasPornin sure, but it's no lair.
21:37
@AviD I'll have you know that I'm legally an adult!
@ScottPack The book is interesting, too. Well written with a fuzzy neo-fascist undertone.
Thomas doesn't need a lair. He's like those big machine things guarding the machine city at the end of matrix III. Nobody's bothered him for 200 years.
You can tell, cause of all his missile knowledge.
@RoryMcCune according to WP, you'd do <!ATTLIST foo a CDATA #IMPLIED> and then <foo a="&ref-to-external-entity;" /> after the <!ENTITY>
and I really am going to sleep, now. Go ahead, talk about me behind my back.
@avid - in imparting this chat to my wife, she points out that the most important thing for any lair is the fluffy white cat. . . Does it have a cat?
@AviD ah I see so I'd do the attlist then add then entity as a parameter... ahh
21:41
@RoryAlsop That's very true. In the absence of that, a piranha tank will do, though, right?
@AntonyVennard Or sharks with frickin' lasers on their heads?
@AdamMcKissock bears, c'mon!
But yes to the lasers.
@AntonyVennard Clearly you didn't get the reference :P
@AdamMcKissock Oh yes I did - Dr Evil. It's just in this room, it's all about the bears!
@AntonyVennard The animal kind, or the homosexual kind?
21:44
@Adam - we had a very long discussion some months back which concluded that bears win (@Thomas trumps sharks)
@AdamMcKissock well, I meant the animal kind, but somehow the homosexual kind always seems to get mentioned...
Anyway, I saw an advert today and wanted to congratulate @Polynomial on a job well done:
user image
2
22:08
@RoryMcCune Did you understand the meaning of ChangeHats from that article OP is linking to, or did you find any other articles about it? I just can't make a sense of it and would be curious to read more on it, if you have something?
change hats security :)
@AviD at 45% or @RoryAlsop's age she could be my grandmother!
I never understood waiting for godot
@RoryAlsop I think waiting for godot is probably one of the more understandable pieces of becket
Wikipediapa - "Waiting for Godot (pron.: /ˈɡɒdoʊ/ god-oh[1]) is an absurdist play by Samuel Beckett"
@RoryAlsop I think the word "absurdist" explains it.
@RoryAlsop I don't understand ChangeHat and what's to be gained from it, that's why I used it as an example
22:21
he also had some play with people dressed up like pots screaming
We have some similar play to Waiting for Godot, about a 'happening in the city of Gogi'... where of course nothing ever happens but everyone is involved with what's happening with other inhabitants... always found it quite Beckett-like
from Wiki... the author was inspired by working in the mental institution... it's supposed to be social-criticism play... weird as they come IMO :)
22:36
@lucas - being the most understandable of Becket's plays does not make it at all understandable. ..
@TildalWave Well from what I understand of AppArmor (which isn't a lot) is that it's a MAC style system that lets you define profles of what an application can do. So it would be one profile per app (say Apache as an app). then ChangeHats allows you to say this one app (e.g. apache) actually has multiple sub-profiles so that some code running under it has more privileges than others
@RoryAlsop What to understand is that the understanding is important. The play is just a substrate on which you are supposed to build your own understanding.
@RoryAlsop true :p
@thomas - sadly I am entirely lost even at your first sentence. I am a simple fellow.
@RoryAlsop and catholic priests don't touch children.
22:42
@RoryAlsop It means whatever you want it to mean. It's supposed to get you thinking, and using your imagination.
I think.
What does wikipedia say?
@LucasKauffman [citation needed] probably
@RoryMcCune LOL!
Ermahgerdwherttherferk
Thersmerksnersernsetermer
@RoryAlsop Dammit, he has reverted to Scottish mode. Someone to reboot @Rory, please.
4
22:45
@RoryMcCune I remember this "changing hats" method being mentioned long ago (10 years back? dunno) and some friend was asking me what's it all about. Of course I had no idea, but more worryingly I still don't now that I've heard of it again after so many years. So basically what you're saying is that it's just a way to temporarily raise or lower application privileges and these "hats" are more like policies than "users"?
Catholic priests. . . Erm. . . My responses are all unsuitable for the public
My favourite explanation was a picture of Jimmy Savile as the new pope!
@TildalWave well from what I read of it, kind of if you think of under a MAC system the profile is like a user then yes it's like having multiple policies for a given user so that bits of what they do operate under different permission levels. (it's late tho' so that may be a sucky analogy)
@thomas, no - that is translated to Ermahgerd girl. You may need to Google for it- I don't have an easy link as I'm on my phone
@RoryMcCune thanks for the answer on the wifi btw
unfortunately they are using valid certificates
well fortunately for them
unfortunately for my finding count
@LucasKauffman NP that's usually where I get to on Wireless assessments if they've got PEAP and are checking things, TBH these days a decently done wifi network is quite robust..
22:55
@RoryMcCune it's about bloody time
considering most wifi networks are free for all
@RoryMcCune you ever had to include a rather improper screenshot in a report?
@LucasKauffman well when I used to do investigations, yep, but don't think so on a pen test...? What did'ya find?
@RoryMcCune had to check if I could access sites which shouldn't be allowed by the policy
@LucasKauffman heh meatspin, lemonparty or goatse?
@RoryMcCune I stopped at playboy.com
eitherway I would probably not put it directly in the report ;op
@LucasKauffman ah well that's not too bad just pixelate it apart from the banner and I'd guess you'd be fine (Although never know with Big 4 Partners...)
22:59
@RoryMcCune ow didn't I mention? I'm currently partnerless...
the highest I have above me is a manager 1 and then the regional FSO managing partner
@LucasKauffman easy then (although surely someone's doing partner review on reports?)
@RoryMcCune partner reviews
that actually exists?
@LucasKauffman well did in my days, no way I'd get a report out the door without a partner review, major drain on the budget...
any way I gotta go sleep.. nightall!
@RoryMcCune yea it must :/
@RoryMcCune nighty night!
23:31
23:54
heh Schneier
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