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01:29
@LucasKauffman That's a fully unqualified YES!
 
1 hour later…
02:58
Pisses me off that some frameworks still offer SHA-1 for password hashing.
 
4 hours later…
 
1 hour later…
07:54
anyone have a funny image I can put on a powerpoint about bring your own device?
08:21
@LucasKauffman xkcd probably has one.
@TerryChia I didn't find any that fits on a powerpoint :(
Do we have any good question about password hashing with answers that explain all important points?
Can't find one I'm really happy with
@CodesInChaos make a question, answer it yourself and set it as community?
summarize all the good stuff from all different answers so we have a generic answer
@CodesInChaos Probably 2 or 3. No one really generic one.
or submit an answer to one of the questions
 
3 hours later…
11:25
morning
@Tinned_Tuna evening
mornin'
noon
11:42
not far off.
Sun's out. It's a beautiful day.
@RoryAlsop you should get out here to absorb some rays while you can.
yeah, it's pretty sunny here.
but screw that, Farscape's on! :D
It isn't sunny here. Probably has to do with the fact that it is night.
@TerryChia Freak.
@AviD this would also get him away from here where the weather is pretty bad (high winds and sleet!)
11:51
@AviD we actually have sleet here right now. Interspersed with sun.
and check out this wave report for off the NW of Scotland - black is over 45 ft swell!
ouch. It's a bit chilly in my office, because its mostly underground and pointed away from the winter sun - but outside it is damn warm.
Hot, almost.
@Polynomial ahhh - a perk of being at home :-)
@RoryAlsop whoa. surfin' weather!
definitely not. Once that swell gets close to land it's going to be jacked up to impossible levels.
Especially west coast of Orkney where 15 to 20 foot waves are the norm
@RoryAlsop that's one thing I never get used to when I travel. Here, seasons are seasons - it's either raining, or it's sunny. How could it be both at the same time?
11:54
the Bay of Skaill can have 2 25 foot point breaks even on a normal day
and it almost never (as in, once every few decades) rains in the summer.
@AviD this is Scotland - we have many seasons. Often within minutes
hehe
right now it is gorgeously sunny out the window and there is heavy sleet
Singapore weather FTW!
11:55
because we don't do that simple boring weather stuff. This is also the reason Brits like to talk about the weather so much
yeah we dashed out for a walk in one of the breaks in the sleet was nice
I actually wore a hat to work today - the sideways sleet was pretty cold
yeah it's looked really unpleasant out there recently. Glad I'm studying from home all this week, no need to go out if it's too foul.
@RoryMcCune when are you guys sitting it?
@RoryAlsop next wednesday. It's possibly overkill starting revising now, but I'd rather do that and pass than the alternative, given the cost.
12:08
@RoryMcCune definitely! All the best with it.
ta :) currently getting through exploitation of some attacks that I don't get to do very often in the general run of things, quite fun really
@Polynomial That's cute.
I'm sure he will attract the very best researchers from all around the world.
yeah, I lol'd pretty hard at the terrible ad.
> I need a security researcher to find NEW bugs in common popular software.
Not even his own software.
13:15
@Polynomial well right now I'm being paid feck all to find issues in our software, and I get the joys of having to fix them too... :)
@AviD It never rains in Scotland, but sometimes the sea decides to hover a bit in the air.
@ThomasPornin it's not rain when it's horizontal
Quick question @ThomasPornin - what's the difference between Rijndael and AES? Are they essentially identical, or is AES a tweaked / improved version?
just looking for a quick elevator pitch answer :)
@Polynomial AES is a subset of Rijndael.
Rijndael is 9 algorithms: all combinations of a 128, 192 or 256-bit key and a 128, 192 or 256-bit block
AES is 3 algorithms: keys of 128, 192 or 256 bits, blocks of 128 bits (always)
13:26
The versions with larger blocks were outside of the scope of the AES competition and were less studied.
that makes sense.
256-bit blocks probably wouldn't make much difference anyway, from a security margin perspective.
yes, larger blocks are useful mostly when you want to use the cipher for something else than encryption, e.g. as building block for a hash function.
Which is what the Whirlpool hash function is about
It uses the block cipher "W" which is Rijndael inflated to 512-bit blocks, and an improved key schedule.
yeah, I remember someone explaining Whirlpool to me. just tweaked AES with big blocks.
it's a decent hash function from what I remember. certainly on a par with SHA2 family stuff.
@Polynomial For security, it is believed decent; it was studied by NESSIE which found nothing bad in it
except that it is awfully slow
yeah it is really slow
but then that's often a good thing if you're looking to build a KDF
13:31
especially on small architectures with small L1 cache
for password hashing / KDF, you want something which is slow for everybody, not slow especially for you
true.
do the AES-NI instructions speed up Whirlpool?
ooh, brb, sammich :3
@Polynomial Not to my knowledge
The S-box is different so chances are that it will be hard to optimize Whirlpool with AES-NI
Some SHA-3 candidates could benefit from AES-NI, e.g. ECHO and SHAvite-3
Interesting
13:47
@Polynomial Not really.
Heh, I never noticed the last two bullet points before.
Or the third one.
random thought; if the cs and ss registers have different values, why do stackland effective-addresses work when we point eip at the stack?
@lynks Segment registers contain indexes into a table of descriptors (well, there are two such tables, but that's a detail)
Each descriptor, in turn, tells where the segment starts in RAM
The descriptors for cs and ss are distinct but describe segments which start at the same address, ie. 0.
So that we can use just the offsets as "addresses" and forget about the segments
@ThomasPornin ahh you've cleared up a whole bunch of confusion that had started to build up. thanks again :)
I was reading about segments and was like...why have i never needed to add these numbers together manually!?
14:08
@lynks Just as an addendum, generally on modern OSes segments actually cover the whole address space. Usually there are four - one data and one code segment for each of ring 0 and ring 3. When you make a system call, part of the magic involved is switching the cs/ds (ss) which magically switches your privilege level. Sort of. Disclaimer: that's quite high level (and again not the whole story... there's a whole load more complexity in it).
@AviD No guac. Had some good queso and home-made salsa though. Also, Tabasco's Buffalo Deviled Eggs recipe is awesome.
@Sadaluk thanks, I'm reading into this stuff at the moment, and I occasionally hit a bump, but you guys on here are always very helpful :P
@Sadaluk That's probably one of the better descriptions I've seen of it.
often people get side-tracked into talking about privilege ring changes and call gates
@Iszi so who won?
I'm guessing - SF lost?
@Polynomial Thanks :)
@lynks Thomas and Poly know all the things. I know one or two. But glad to help :)
Anyone know if the securi-tay videos have made it online yet? I want to learn some powershell :)
14:26
@AviD Yeah. They were getting stomped in the first half. Actually had a chance at coming back the second half, but couldn't pull it off.
@Polynomial much of this is coming from the Bill Blunden book, which is absolutely fantastic, thanks for the recommendation.
@Iszi read of a theory last week - which ever city has the lower unemployment rate, wins the superbowl. Seems to be holding true.
@AviD Fascinating. Link?
urghh. hang on.
dont remember where I saw it originally, but cnbc.com/id/100417252/… covers it too.
14:34
@lynks Yeah, that book rocks.
15:29
Interesting, a new attack against TLS: arstechnica.com/security/2013/02/…
(Maybe i'm a little slow)
@TerryChia Maybe?
It's essentially a different variant of BEAST.
from what I can tell, anyway.
here's the original: isg.rhul.ac.uk/tls
@Polynomial Thanks, much more readable than the research paper.
@ScottPack :(
@Polynomial why would you want more readable -- surely you want to exclude others from your new-found knowledge? :-p
(and potentially yourself)
15:37
@Tinned_Tuna If I don't get it no one can?
:P
Operation Last Resort
Dat anonymous strikes again
“@helpnetsecurity: Oracle rushes out emergency Java patch - http://bit.ly/11kfTF1” < s/patch/uninstall/g
this is a great explanation of the attack: imperialviolet.org/2013/02/04/luckythirteen.html
Basically this:
41
Q: Should we MAC-then-encrypt or encrypt-then-MAC?

Thomas PorninMost of the time, when some data must be encrypted, it must also be protected with a MAC, because encryption protects only against passive attackers. There are some nifty encryption modes which include a MAC (EAX, GCM...) but let's assume that we are doing old-style crypto, so we have a standalon...

15:54
Wow! I have just heard that Swartz committed suicide..
I'm truly disgusted by the U.S government now
@Adnan Have you been living in a cave? :P
Sort of
@Polynomial Actually not really BEAST, more like the "padding oracle attack" from Vaudenay in 2002. The interesting point is that they found a leak which is under 1µs and could still pull off measurements.
It works in "lab conditions" (100baseT ethernet between attacker and target server)
yeah
interesting
They claim "realistic network scenario" but that remains to be seen
15:56
well 100baseT in a corporate network is possible.
Usually, when you have kernel-level access to the ethernet LAN, you have more attack potential than stealing cookies.
2
I wonder if it works against ipsec too...
that most certainly could be a useful attack vector.
@Polynomial IPsec does encrypt-then-MAC, so it should be immune.
YAY MODERATOR TOOLS !
@ThomasPornin luckily.
16:02
POWER ! UNLIIIIIIMITED POWER !
@TomLeek Sneaky bugger.
@TomLeek Damn bear..
Does using a smart phone (SMS) as the 2nd factor in a two-factor authentication kind of breaks the "principle"?
Since the mobile itself used for logging in
@Adnan nah it still works; if i guess your password, i still need your phone, and if i steal your phone, i still need your password.
@Adnan You are, effectively, replacing the hardware token with your cell phone, making the phone the 'Something You Have" token.
16:12
But I mean realistically, don't most people leave their passwords "remembered"
Oh yeah yeah, but then again, people who're careless about security won't be using two-factor authentication anyway
although it's an interesting point, what happens when mobile phone co's make SMS archives available online
that would break the model good and proper
@Adnan I honestly don't know how prevalent that really is, but it also doesn't really change the conversation.
I'm starting to think I need to stop asking Science Fiction and Fantasy or Arqade questions. It seems a lot of mine are getting closed or heavily down-voted, though they otherwise appear (in my totally unbiased opinion) to be good SE questions.
If they're saving their passwords in the browser then they're voluntarily accepting the risk of transferring their "Something You Know" factor to a "Something You Have" which is their computer.
@Iszi, unbiased, well that's what you say
16:14
So if you pump them up to a hardware token (or phone based soft token) then it'll just be "Something Else You Have"
@ScottPack mmm.. very true.
@RoryMcCune Maybe. Most of the SMS based systems I've seen only allow the code to be good for a relatively short period of time, minutes, much like the SecurID or Google Authenticator code.
@ScottPack SecurID is usually only good for a minute - singular.
@RoryMcCune So, in that case, who cares if unusable codes are publicized? That's the point, right?
true so it would only be if mobile phone companies make SMS available in realtime... wouldn't be surprised if they start doing that...
16:16
@Iszi Sure, same with Google Authenticator.
@RoryMcCune GSM sniffing!!
@Adnan true , though that's into a different class of attackers....
Has anybody seen GSM sniffing in action by the way?
@Adnan I go back to Scott's Security Rules: Any commercial system is inadequate against sufficiently dedicated attackers.
I've heard about lots of custom devices, but never actually seen it
16:19
Geez. Almost lost 20 rep off this one.
-9
Q: Was there any backstory or purpose for the Cryogenics Pods on the Normandy?

IsziThe Cryogenics Pods seem like a big ol' Chekov's Gun on both the SSV Normandy and the Normandy SR-2. However, I did not see them being used in any of the Trilogy games nor did I notice any entries in the Codex. In fact, there's little to no mention of them even in the Mass Effect Wiki - they're...

@Iszi damn! -9!
Not into gaming that much, but I do see it as a legitimate SE question.
@Adnan Well, from a certain perspective, I guess there is one reason not to like the question - though I wouldn't call it worthy of an SE down-vote.
in The Bridge, 17 mins ago, by fbueckert
@Lazers Hey, let's play Poke the Plot Hole!
Damn! So annoyed they didn't continue hunting.SE
I wanted to show off my new Airgun
16:40
@Polynomial, do you guys need to apply for visa when entering schengen?
Or any UK guys
schengen?
that sounds like a German word, not English.
schengen agreement is a free travel zone which the UK should be in but isn't
means we need passports to go to europe
where within schengen area they don't
so france--> germany no passport required
almost all EU countries are in it
16:44
@Adnan don't think so IIRC
yeah usual UK/EU nonsense about being part in part out
It's so good that down-votes only hit you for -2. I only need 3 more up-votes now to counter the lost rep from that question.
@RoryMcCune yup, seems to be the case. Up to 90 days, only needing a passport
sounds right I didn't remember doing one for belgium last year.
@RoryMcCune Most EU countries are in Schengen space, and some non-EU as well (e.g. Switzerland)
@ThomasPornin I know, it's annoying that the UK isn't, would make travel easier..
16:55
Maybe I'm under-exposed, but I think this is the scariest thing I've seen in an SE chat - aside from, possibly, @ScottPack's bears.
in The Bridge, 2 mins ago, by Fluttershy
@BenBrocka Oh gods... My mom read those 50 Shades of Grey books. She told me "You might want to sleep with ear plugs when your dad comes home." x_x
@Iszi O_O
@Iszi What's so scary about the bears?
@Iszi I'm still processing that, I can't imagine that being told to me in the same situation. I mean I'm a grown* man, but still it would make me uncomfortable.
*Biased opinion
If you have parents that say things like that then you've probably grown callous by adulthood.
Here, let me be a little more specific.
If you have parents like that then you will have become more callous to such comments by adulthood.
17:26
Hey, what happened to the section on the About page that listed a site's mods?
@Iszi We all gave up our jobs to a very unintelligent AI.
@JeffFerland Would it be rude to point out that I've not noticed any difference?
@ScottPack You think I deal with people's flags sober?
@JeffFerland I would never imply such a thing.
is it perverse to have vim buffers that contain source sets in 3 different languages? my brain is suffering from all the context-switching : /
@lynks Are all of those languages different dialects of English?
@ScottPack ruby, java and c, so you could say so, yes.
@lynks Ah, those kinds of languages.
18:19
So @Thomas now has 2 10k accounts.
I like to refer to them as the Bear Pair.
2
@ScottPack haha, I'm stealing that one.
@Polynomial I also like to pretend that they're the ones posted in the meme list.
he needs a 3rd account
@RoryMcCune 403 Not Found
18:24
@RoryMcCune Image not found. Must be the bearly there account.
weird shows on mine..
what about
It's a referrer-blocking issue
it's as dead as a dildo.
3
Copy the link and paste it instead of clicking and you'll see it
that one?
That works
of course now you'll all say you're too young to get the reference....
hmmm
mmmmm ip addresses
nom nom nom
18:27
the bears could have a theme tune and everything!
@ThomasPornin You're familiar with TLS. D'you think it's possible for them to implement encrypt-then-MAC in TLS 1.3, or is the protocol entirely dependant on MAC-then-encrypt in a way that would break things?
i find it somewhat embarrassing that they got that wrong, unless there is some reason i'm missing...
19:05
@Polynomial It is possible to implement encrypt-then-MAC in TLS 1.3. But it is equally possible to implement the proper thing, i.e. "authenticated encryption" (aka GCM) and it is done in TLS 1.2.
@ThomasPornin yeah, I figure GCM is the best option, but wouldn't it make sense for encrypt-then-MAC to be supported too?
or am I missing something?
@Polynomial If you implement encrypt-then-MAC then you implement something which is not supported yet, so you are ready to implement new algorithms -- therefore you might as well implement correct ones, which don't have padding oracles attack because they don't have padding at all.
IF SSL/TLS had used encrypt-then-MAC in the first place, then we could procrastinate and claim that there is no urgency to switch to GCM or EAX. But SSL/TLS did not use encrypt-then-MAC, making the problem urgent.
(In fact, internally, GCM is an encrypt-then-MAC system. With CTR instead of CBC in the "encrypt" part.)
good point
so in a way it's a good thing that the implementers screwed up, because it means we can move to GCM quicker.
Somehow...
19:24
@ThomasPornin isn't the symmetric algo and mode of operation a parameter in TLS headers?
It is. That's the "cipher suite"
But it just is a symbolic identifier; corresponding client and server code must exist.
19:42
@ThomasPornin sure, but are there no options already commonly available that do encrypt then mac?
or is that part of the TLS framework, and not pluggable, as it were.
that's part of the TLS framework for CBC mode.
@Polynomial rgr
shame they chose not to make it more modular :(
GCM provides authentication as part of it, which means that the mode of operation and MAC are one and the same.
@Polynomial yeah im just reading about it, it's a new one to me.
 
1 hour later…
20:53
15th feb
first ctf
@LucasKauffman What's the team name we're supposed to enter?
ah
security.se
I'll be in an airplane most of the 16th and that tends to imply I'll be very busy on the 15th :( so I'll skip this one
@Gilles There are offline challenges for when you are bored on the plane
if someone can make a nice logo
that's what books are for
21:01
Ill put it up
@Gilles books are what you will use as reference to solve the challenges!
@JeffFerland JailBait Ferland?
@LucasKauffman I guess I'm stuck with whatever my twitter name is by using twitter?
@JeffFerland yup
@LucasKauffman Bastards game me editable fields. Grr.
@JeffFerland can you make a private chatroom or do I setup a private irc server/chanel?
@LucasKauffman private chatrooms on SE are for moderation only
21:10
@Gilles so that means I'll setup a private irc server I guess
We're using them in moderation :)
we need a private channel to communicate for the CTF
but I can setup an IRC server if needed, it's not a problem :)
21:49
@LucasKauffman why set up a whole server? just make a channel on freenode
@Polynomial I don't trust free node
<.<
>.>
nah that was the plan
heh
well I made one for you :P
freenode / #SecSE-CTF
 
1 hour later…
23:20
haha, damn
feel free to make me a room owner here ;)
mwahaha

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