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04:23

Click to see a video of a modern bird using stability flapping during predatory behavior. It all fits! Also, apparently Microraptor had *four* wings? The past keeps getting cooler! (And there's more of it every day!)

Lucas Kauffman

05:07

Good morning gentlemen

vignesh

05:21

@LucasKauffman good morning

vignesh

06:25

hello anybody here to discuss?

Lucas Kauffman

06:52

maybe

what do you want to discuss?

vignesh

cloud security?

Lucas Kauffman

ok you may start

vignesh

i have an basic query here regarding clouds security and privacy

well i,e an employee whom work for an cloud can easily access our posted cloud data right?,if yes then where is our privacy?

Terry Chia

What makes you think an employee can access your data?

Lucas Kauffman

07:09

@vignesh well technically yes, a system administrator working for your cloud provider can access your machine and probably even see your data

but that's the cost of moving to the cloud

if you don't like that you need to host your own environment

if you can't afford to host your environment you are out of luck :p

vignesh

@TerryChia basically doubted for e.g before handing over some data to people we will check for security likewise

Lucas Kauffman

not every employee can access your data, but there will be some

vignesh

otherthan that anyother issues in cloud?

anyother security issues in cloud file storage?

i miss polynomial today

Lucas Kauffman

07:30

eehm, it can go down?

vignesh

@RoryAlsop good noon

@Polynomial hi tutor,today s teacher's day in our country my teachers day wishes to you(since you are my tutor)

leakage in ios applications privacy iseclab.org/papers/egele-ndss11.pdf

Polynomial

I have no idea what you just said.

But I'm not your tutor.

in other news, leaving for 44con today!

vignesh

@Polynomial ok friend

pios aware of it ?

Polynomial

right, work time

vignesh

@Polynomial ok see you soon

Lucas Kauffman

07:53

@vignesh on your bio it says that one of your favorite authors is Stephen Hawkins, don't you mean Stephen Hawking?

by the way how is your steganography tool coming along?

vignesh

@LucasKauffman well friend i am trying my best to develop the stenography tool

Lucas Kauffman

and how is it coming along?

vignesh

@LucasKauffman i am trying to build it with vb,and about stephen hawkins my favourite is "The First Three Minutes: A Modern View Of The Origin Of The Universe [Paperback]"

@LucasKauffman i love him and he is my rolemodel

@LucasKauffman what you do in real life (meaned profession)

Lucas Kauffman

@vignesh thats steven weinberg :p

@vignesh I'm a penetration tester and consultant

vignesh

@LucasKauffman frank to say i dont know what is penetration

Rory Alsop

08:02

@vignesh :-) security.stackexchange.com/questions/tagged/penetration-test

vignesh

@RoryAlsop thanks

Lucas Kauffman

@vignesh penetration testing is abusing a system. The goal is to try and break into the system to show there are weaknesses

@vignesh you still studying?

Rory Alsop

effectively to emulate what an attacker would do

vignesh

@LucasKauffman is it common for all kind of applications?

@LucasKauffman i study at evening colleges,work as software tester for an it concern

Lucas Kauffman

@vignesh well we specialize in financial institutions (banks, clearing houses) and their infrastructure (servers, network,...) and applications (websites, online banking applications, trader apps,...)

vignesh

08:06

@LucasKauffman atonce when i read about penetration i found this blog and wish to share with you pentestlab.wordpress.com

Lucas Kauffman

cool I'll have a look

vignesh

@LucasKauffman it maybe basics for you in terms of your experience

Lucas Kauffman

@vignesh I don't consider myself experienced, plus there is always something new to learn every day

vignesh

@LucasKauffman anyway i ll be happy if it helped you

Lucas Kauffman

:)

@RoryAlsop you joining BruCon too?

vignesh

08:19

brucon?

Lucas Kauffman

@vignesh security conference in Gent, Belgium

vignesh

@LucasKauffman hope to participate in future after gaining enough knowledge

Rory Alsop

@LucasKauffman I've missed BruCon the last two years through timing/budget issues. In fact one year I had a ticket from Wim and my work wouldn't give me time off :-(

This year looks like having no time either

Very jealous of the lads/lasses at 44con

Polynomial

@RoryAlsop You have to make it to at least one con! :o

I'm off on the train to 44con at mid day

couldn't get time off + money for all 3 days, so I'm just doing the technical days

Rory Alsop

@Polynomial In previous years I did okay - blackhat, defcon, b-sides, infosec all have been on my list

vignesh

08:23

@RoryAlsop if you missed last year demonstrations then have a look at this thehackernews.com/2011/09/…

Rory Alsop

but as I turn into a PHB my permissions for these actually seem to reduce

Polynomial

I've been to BSidesLondon, InfoSec and DC4420/44Cafe

I'd like to do BruCon. I'd love to go to Defcon / BSides LV, but I don't see that happening in the near future!

flights to the USA are too expensive :/

Lucas Kauffman

@RoryAlsop aaaw :( should have stayed a senior consultant!

Rory Alsop

@Polynomial B-Sides SF was utterly awesom, as I wangled a pass to RSA as well

Lucas Kauffman

@Polynomial last year I found a flight for 540 euro I think to vegas and back

Polynomial

08:25

@LucasKauffman That's pretty good. Still a bit pricey on top of the ticket, though.

Rory Alsop

@Polynomial Defcon is still (in my opinion) the cheapest training for pen testers/security consultants that I know of. Even when you include the flight costs (ie book now for next year)

Polynomial

@RoryAlsop training? are there actual classes, or are you referring to learning via talks?

Lucas Kauffman

I wonder if I can get my partner convinced to pay my defcon ticket if I pay the flight

@RoryAlsop can I screenshot that and use it as proof if I have to make a case :p?

Rory Alsop

@Polynomial there are a lot of talks I would definitely class as training, and there are associated classes for certain things - spun off the main Defcon

Polynomial

nice.

Rory Alsop

08:30

@LucasKauffman I made that case successfully a couple of years running while I was at EY

Polynomial

there was some similar stuff for 44con, but HOLY CRAP expensive.

Lucas Kauffman

@Polynomial get your job to pay for it

Rory Alsop

@LucasKauffman hahahahahaha

ROI on security training is challenging when even clients find it hard to see security as anything other than a cost

Polynomial

@LucasKauffman If only. I don't work in security - I'm a software dev.

at most I'd be able to get them to put some cash towards me getting a cert. maybe.

but cons = no way.

Lucas Kauffman

@RoryAlsop so true :(

@Polynomial but secure development is important

considering my short experience I feel there is a huge lack of it

Polynomial

08:34

@LucasKauffman True, but this is a 10+ year old Delphi product. So... yeah :|

Lucas Kauffman

o.O

my condolences

Polynomial

indeed

thankfully I don't have to work on our other project.

Lucas Kauffman

COBOL 86?

Polynomial

which is a 20+ year old Pascal project, that was later migrated to Delphi.

Lucas Kauffman

close enough :p

Polynomial

08:37

hahaha

nocookielaw.com

3

^ they win themselves an Internet.

Rory Alsop

@Polynomial that is brilliant

Polynomial

it's such a dumb law

I never even bothered enforcing it.

Rory Alsop

@Polynomial agreed

Polynomial

they should have just enforced that sites have a cookie policy link on the front page

"like every other website on the planet, we use cookies! read our policy [here]"

vignesh

ok lunch time see you soon all

Terry Chia

08:48

The idea of this law is a noble one, it's just a shame it was drafted by a team of technically illiterate octogenarians who couldn't find a button on a mouse. - Brilliant

Rory Alsop

I love this answer on the parenting SE:

1

A: What software can I use to plan and prepare for my family's security and safety?

It's a dangerous business, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no telling where you might be swept off to. --Bilbo Baggins (Lord of the Rings movie) As the question's comments suggest - your first step is to stop and breathe. "Risks," espec...

Risk management beautifully described

M'vy

10:01

^^

Should we propose to use 27001 standard?

Rory Alsop

@M'vy :-)

vignesh

11:46

hi all

Scott Pack

12:20

@M'vy Depends on their location. If they're in the US then they might as well use NIST800-53.

Terry Chia

13:12

1

Q: IT security graduation project?

I am looking for ideas for a graduation project related to IT security. I tried to search the internet not much help, so any resources or ideas would be much appreciated. I am a computer engineer senior. Got good development/network/security backgrounds. Thank you!

professional-education

Pretty NARQ-ish to me.

Iszi

@TerryChia Got my vote.

jokerdino

14:55

What's up with the flags?

Scott Pack

I only saw the one, but I have no idea.

jokerdino

I saw two. :P

Scott Pack

Was one of them for me?

jokerdino

Didn't note the second one.

Scott Pack

ah

jokerdino

14:56

I am checking if the first one was validated

Scott Pack

So, yeah, I dunno. The one I did see was pretty silly.

jokerdino

well, i didn't hit yes

Scott Pack

Ooo, one can go back and check the validation of flags? Or does it require searching to see if the post was deleted?

jokerdino

@ScottPack The latter

Scott Pack

Lame.

jokerdino

14:58

:D

You gotta be a diamond.

tombull89

For the record, the one I got I dismissed as it was so trivial - something like "suck it up".

Scott Pack

That's the one I saw too.

vignesh

@ScottPack i have genral doubt related to chat se site can i ask here

jokerdino

@tombull89 yeah.

Scott Pack

@tombull89 I remember that conversation. It was a pretty reasonable comment. :)

@vignesh Go on.

jokerdino

15:00

You know, this is surprising.

That comment was made on Sunday.

Scott Pack

That sounds about right. It was a while ago.

jokerdino

Why go dig up old comments?!

Scott Pack

Smells like someone going through the transcript.

tombull89

@ScottPack sorry :P I'm surprised, normally by the time I have a look at the chat transcript and make a judgement someone else has beaten me to the valid/invalid decision.

jokerdino

This is lame. Bye :P

Scott Pack

15:01

That and cabbage.

tombull89

Don't know why people do but they do.

Scott Pack

@tombull89 Same here.

@tombull89 Of course, most of the flags I see come from The Bridge.

jokerdino

@ScottPack Those gamers

vignesh

@ScottPack i have 2.5k reputation in stackexchange site and i am now able to create private chat rooms at stackexchange site ,now problem is i cant create private chat rooms in other sites how ,why this thing?

Scott Pack

Have a lovely day, @jokerdino

jokerdino

15:02

Bye. Thanks for the time

Scott Pack

@vignesh /me shrugs

I thought only mods could create private rooms.

vignesh

@ScottPack try yourself scott i guess you can create private room too

Scott Pack

Not according to the privileges list.

tombull89

Private rooms are mod only, however you can create rooms that need the user to request chat priveledge

Scott Pack

That requires 1k rep on a site, though.

Those would be "gallery" rooms.

They're public read only but can be limited to who is allowed to talk in them.

vignesh

15:06

anyway thanks for clarification

Polynomial

afternoon all.

train wifi is amusing.

Scott Pack

I've only ever ridden on a 100 year old train. It didn't have wifi.

Polynomial

lol

well they have an open AP, which you get redirected to a web page on

Scott Pack

Well, I take that back. I've also ridden in subways, which are technically trains but are often thought of differently.

Polynomial

on which you can pay for wifi

Scott Pack

15:11

I haven't ridden on a subway since iPhones existed.

Thomas Pornin

@Polynomial In VIA Rail trains (in Canada), the WiFi is free.

Polynomial

so it's possible to actually ARP spoof everyone else on the network, and make your own fake wifi landing page.

Thomas Pornin

Same thing for Orleans Express busses

Polynomial

@ThomasPornin It's free on Virgin trains, or on 1st class in most other train providers.

Scott Pack

How much radio bleed is there from 1st class to plebe class?

Polynomial

15:12

@ScottPack They don't enforce it that way. You have to type your ticket number in.

Scott Pack

Phaw.

Terry Chia

@Polynomial wifi pineapple ftw ;)

Polynomial

but this journey to London is only costing me £16, so I can't complain at no free wifi

and wifi for 3 hours was £4. which isn't all that bad

but anyway, it'd be relatively trivial to ARP spoof everyone on the network into connecting to my box, where I could host a fake "log on for wifi!" page

Scott Pack

Just turn on the mobile hotspot on your 50GB/month cellular plan.

Polynomial

then show them a fake payment page

yoink! free credit cards.

@ScottPack On a train? Good luck getting any more than ~10KB/s.

really looking forward to 44con tomorrow ^_^

Iszi

16:02

Just got a tweet from Leonard Nimoy, re-tweeting Zachary Quinto. Spock, re-tweeting Spock. Fascinating.

Iszi

16:34

Quiet in here this afternoon. Is everyone okay?

Terry Chia

About to head to bed now. ;)

Iszi

@TerryChia Sounds like a good plan. Just not for my timezone. :-(

Rory McCune

17:16

@Polynomial speaking of 44con tomorrow, I'll bring the stuff that @RoryAlsop gave me.. I'll be wearing a Scottish Ruby Conf T-Shirt and probably be standing around next to a redhead :)

Jeff Ferland

All's quiet in the world. Must mean we're about to make the front page of Reddit.

Iszi

I wonder what, if anything, this says about us...

I'm over there occasionally, but I'm generally too paranoid to want to be seen over on that site ;-) — allquixotic 7 mins ago

Or, does it say something about the author?

Scott Pack

I get annoyed with the whole, "Oh, you work in security. You must be all hush-hush secret like, eh?"

Iszi

Jeff Ferland

@ScottPack I've heard that recently...

Scott Pack

17:25

@JeffFerland If I hear one more person say something to the effect of, "...or would you have to kill me?" I may oblige them.

Rory Alsop

@RoryMcCune cheers dude

Iszi

Come to think, I wonder why nobody's ever said "If I told you, I'd have to kill myself"?

Jeff Ferland

Go to Japan a few centuries ago.

Gilles

17:42

@Iszi that happens sometimes in sf/fantasy settings with hypnosis/bewitching/...

Iszi

Speaking of SF&F... Has anyone here read Jennifer Government? I've thought of a question that I'm not quite sure would be a good fit for here or SciFi, because it's mostly theoretical and involves technologies which (AFAIK) aren't currently in use, but I'm curious to hear opinions on.

Gilles

@Iszi I haven't read it

you can ask questions on fictional technologies in the context of their fictional setting on SFF

but questions about fictional technologies in the real world don't work

Iszi

@Gilles Exactly.

Gilles

the community is divided as to whether they're on-topic, but most of the time they're non-constructive anyway: it's a fictional technology, so it works whichever way the author wants

Iszi

There's an interesting scenario where a programmer goes to an interview and infects a portion of the company's network with a virus. The interesting bit is that the virus at first appears to be unsuccessful - it's caught by the company's AV through some sort of heuristic or behavior analysis scan.

However, it was actually engineered to use the company's AV system as its distribution mechanism. Once the company's AV identifies a new threat, it creates a signature file and distributes the signature to all its clients. The virus was written such that the signature file itself would act as a virus once the clients picked it up.

Jeff Ferland

17:55

Nice movie plot!

Gilles

@Iszi that's pretty advanced

Iszi

@JeffFerland Interestingly enough, I don't believe this was even a core component of the novel's plot.

So, yeah. My question was going to be whether or not this was even theoretically possible. But then, I realized that (AFAIK) no antivirus software currently behaves in this way.

Jeff Ferland

More likely than stoplights all going green, anyway.

Gilles

18:11

TIL: what to link to when askers don't give enough context

bsd-box.net/~mikeg/context

3

> Answering your question is like solving the mystery of the dead cat …

Iszi

Hrm. Re-reading the summary on Wiki, it seems it was an important part of the book. I've got to re-read that book, sometime when I'm done with the rest of my reading list.

Andrey Botalov

18:46

I'd want to ask question "What are main trends in IT Security research?". I think about making some research but I don't know what I can do. Can somebody point me?

But this question seems to be very vague for me

Iszi

@AndreyBotalov It is rather vague, a bit subjective, and definitely time-sensitive. So, not a good SE question. A good one for chat, though. I'd be interested to see what some of the others in here will say. Ping @RoryAlsop @AviD @M'vy @ScottPack @JeffFerland @ThomasPornin

Scott Pack

Sorry. Trying to find my job description. This should be easier.

Iszi

@ScottPack Seems everyone's trying to polish up their resumes these days, or is it just me? Must be the season for it, or something.

David

afternoon!

Scott Pack

@Iszi Oh, no, our HR department has hired a consulting company to review our entire compensation package across the enterprise.

Iszi

19:01

@ScottPack Oh, yay.

It's allright. Our group pretty much has to do the same (figure out job description) once a year for employee self-evaluations.

Sorry... missed that?

@ScottPack Yeah, sounds about right.

You funny, guy.

Iszi

19:16

@ScottPack I wonder what happens if a post gets starred, then deleted? Have we tested that, yet?

Scott Pack

Too bad

Iszi

Awww...

Scott Pack

in The Comms Room, 2 mins ago, by Adrian

Porting an old version of Bugzilla from FC8 to EL6.

Iszi

@ScottPack Wait... what?

Scott Pack

Yeah.

I'm not entirely sure glibc even existed back then.

Iszi

19:25

Know what's funny? The (removed) placeholders still show the flag/star buttons when you mouse-over them. Can't do anything with those of course, but it's still funny.

For some reason, the reply button is omitted.

Scott Pack

Do you see the history link on the deleted posts?

Iszi

Scott Pack

Ah, cute.

Iszi

Funny. You can edit the post down to a period, and still have history. Can't edit it to null, though. If you delete it, no history. Though, I presume diamonds and perhaps the author and/or room owner can still see history.

Scott Pack

At minimum moderators, yourself, and possibly room owners.

Iszi

19:33

@ScottPack I'd say moderators are the minimum. The most would be to add yourself and room owners.

Scott Pack

I'm talking about who has access to see it, not who I would assume.

allquixotic

@Iszi, I'm here ;P

Iszi

Looks like you definitely have access to see it yourself, so presumably moderators do too. @ScottPack can you see history on my removed post above?

@allquixotic Welcome to the party.

Scott Pack

@Iszi Affirmative.

Iszi

So, that answers the room owners question. I wonder if that's really appropriate?

@ScottPack Did you just self-star that?

Scott Pack

19:36

That's a negative.

allquixotic

I did ;P

Scott Pack

I can pin them, but I can't star my own posts.

Iszi

Ah. For a second there I thought you were abusing those room pwner powers of yours.

Mkay, I really need to focus here. Got a quick report needs doing before I can break free for the afternoon. Cya.

allquixotic

I'm having difficulty finding a high quality question on sec.se that I can really sink my teeth into and answer "well"... many many questions about things I have no idea about, or I don't know that they're on topic, or just bad questions

Rory Alsop

@allquixotic - if they are bad questions, feel free to flag 'em :)

Scott Pack

19:46

I notice that a lot of the questions have tended to get reasonable, if not great, answers before I get to them too. Phaw.

allquixotic

I'm looking for the tried and true method of learning by answering, which is largely what I do/did at SuperUser... my focus is on web application security (mainly from the front-end / application server attack vector)

I have an existing body of knowledge X that I want to expand into X+Y by going "hmmmm" and researching someone's question and finding / developing a strong answer, and in turn help that person and myself

works very well on the SU side

the problem I'm running into is that "security" is such a wide topic that everything from crypto theory to information theory to quantum mechanics gets discussed on the site, and it's just such a broad field that finding questions I can latch onto that apply to my job/interests (where my interests generally align with things I need to know / should know for work) is exhausting

Jeff Ferland

@Iszi You have awoken me from my slumber.

Scott Pack

@JeffFerland Go back to your "work" and drinking.

allquixotic

now I find security.stackexchange.com/questions/19785/… but the answer is already satisfying

Gilles

20:05

@ScottPack what's EL6?

Jeff Ferland

@Gilles RedHat Enterprise Linux 6

Gilles

@JeffFerland ah, ok. So what's remarkable about porting a program to RHEL6?

Jeff Ferland

... crap, it's that song that samples the .SE chat notification sound

@Gilles Since I'm busy doing exactly that right this moment... getting all the patches they had & directory changes to line up

In my case, RHEL includes 2.48 and I need to mimic whatever changes they have. Some of them are in upstream 2.63, though.

I don't know WTF @ScottPack is up to. @ScottPack probably doesn't know what he's doing either :D

Scott Pack

20:53

@Gilles Porting an application to RHEL6 isn't so much the exciting part as it is migrating an existing application, with data and everything, between to vastly different versions of the OS.

allquixotic

I guess you can just grab the data itself and compile the last stable version compatible with said data against RHEL6, but it sounds like doing that involves applying patches and directory structure changes, ugh

this is why I like it when distributions leave my web applications alone

Scott Pack

@Gilles While F8 does still use a 2.6 era kernel, it was released in 2007. I'm actually looking to see what the corresponding versions of RHEL would be.

allquixotic

RHEL5 was FC6, afaik

so F8 was somewhere between RHEL5 and RHEL6

RHEL6 was F12

Scott Pack

I thought el5 was based on something newer than that. The timing works out about right.

Yeah, el6 is either 12 or 13.

allquixotic

Red Hat Enterprise Linux

Red Hat Enterprise Linux (RHEL) is a Linux-based operating system developed by Red Hat and targeted toward the commercial market. Red Hat Enterprise Linux is released in server versions for x86, x86-64, Itanium, PowerPC and IBM System z, and desktop versions for x86 and x86-64. All of Red Hat's official support and training and the Red Hat Certification Program center around the Red Hat Enterprise Linux platform. Red Hat Enterprise Linux is often abbreviated to RHEL, although this is not an official designation. The first version of Red Hat Enterprise Linux to bear the name originally ca...

Scott Pack

20:56

Yuppers.

So el6 was spun off of some kind of bastardized merger of f12 and 13. Funky.

allquixotic

so going for F8 to EL6 is like going from F8 to F12, I wouldn't think it'd be such a huge jump but I guess Bugzilla (or Fedora's implementation of it within their packages) changed that much between the releases

well, el6 is mostly just F12 with a lot of security and stability patches (duct tape). it incorporates parts of F13 that are related to hardware support, and security/bugfixes which were prohibitively hard to backport

Scott Pack

Seems reasonable.

allquixotic

and the funny thing is that the latest release of EL6 actually includes significant components of distros as recent as F16 (maybe even 17) in certain areas, e.g. the kernel

Scott Pack

I remember the original chatter that el6 was going to be based off 12, but then the release was delayed and 13 came out.

allquixotic

one of the big areas where they pull quite new components is the open source graphics stack

also the kvm virtualization stack

but there are so many different components from different "eras" in EL releases in general that they really are not contemporaneous with any specific rolling release / minimal-testing-release distro that ships whatever components are the latest, e.g. ArchLinux, Fedora, Ubuntu (mostly), etc.

individual components are contemporaneous of course but the OS as a whole is more an amalgamation of code from 2007 to... well... 2012

a ton of effort goes into manual validation and verification of functionality to explicitly look for defects and eliminate or work around them, so that the end product is absolutely stable and even the edge cases are taken into account... this is why they're somewhat allergic to pulling new things like glibc and gcc just for fun, ditto for upstream kernel

and anything new that is specifically requested or easy to modularize and pull, is also heavily validated

Scott Pack

21:02

Hence the 'E' part of their name.

And on that note, time to go home.

allquixotic

i have a Nexus 7 waiting for me at home, can't wait until I get off work

Scott Pack

I seriously need to stop pining and just order one.

allquixotic

I did that... it ouched the wallet and then i sighed and accepted that I'm a hopeless gadget geek

Jeff Ferland

21:48

2

Q: Crashing a wifi network

Lets say Im using a sucky computer with windows xp, and I need to crash the wifi. All I can use is a program that I can bring on my flash drive. What program would I need for this? Is it possible to do this using only CMD or C# with maybe a dozen lines of code or less?

wifi

Should this question even exist?

Andrew Smith

OF COURSE

ppl should know that wifi is not secure

sorry I had capslock

for example, wifi is OK as side-channel, just like satellite connection

but wire, or ideally fibre is a different class of medium

u know there is many ppl doing lans in companies using wifi

because they dont have awareness that wiifi is a public ether and it's legal to abuse it even with a good microwave

and I guess using jammer is illegal, but microwave should be just fine, microwaves from kitchen are fully legal

-4

Q: Generic Security model for Web application

Unlike traditional Web Application Firewalls which relies on negative and positive security models to protect web application. My question is that is their any model exists that can identify the unintended violation in the workflow of web application that can lead to intrusion due to vulnerabilit...

web-application intrusion

ModSecurity can do a lot from this

Andrew Smith

22:13

ehh

at least I can search

I should be allowed to edit old posts then instead of posting new

to turn me into librarian or something

however the search is not the best

and the security of the site is poor and the usage is very risky over the browser, especially on itsecurity

Andrew Smith

23:23

this search engine could be fixed, because it's more spamming google then actually does search itself

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