The DMZ

Iszi

16:00

@Shog9 First one could use a bit of re-phrasing. Not even sure it's worth being distinct, but I think I get where you're at with that.

Shog9

-> censor
-> kick
-> ban

AviD

@Shog9 I would move the "or blatantly offensive" to "Rude"

doesnt really fit with spam

Iszi

@AviD I think it does, in terms of what the appropriate response would be.

Annoying/Rude, you might get by with just censorship. Spam/blatantly offensive needs a kick.

Shog9

Alternately, could make the system try & suss out the severity based on # of messages flagged + # of rooms involved

M'vy

Why not a step system. First flag -> warning, Second flag -> 5 min timeout, third flag -> 1 day suspension

Iszi

16:02

@Shog9 Is there really a problem of individual users simultaneously (or nearly so) posting flag-worthy content in more than one room?

Shog9

@Iszi yes

Iszi

@Shog9 I mean, I know it's certainly a possibility. Just never actually seen it be an issue in action.

M'vy

usually that kind of behaviour is easy to spot I guess

Without even validating the flags

(unless it's not the same user)

Iszi

@Shog9 Is there any granularity to kicks/bans in chat? i.e.: Can a person be kicked/banned from just one room, or is it a network-wide hammer?

diagprov

@Iszi ban is network wide hammer, kick is per room.

Iszi

16:05

@diagprov Okay, I think you & I are using slightly different definitions. I presume your usage is "ban" = mod action, "kick" = RO action? (Not sure where a non-mod/RO flag response would fit though.)

Shog9

@Iszi might be less common on chat.SE than chat.SO, but still not unheard of

@Iszi click on someone's name here, select the "kick-mute" option

diagprov

@Iszi If I remember rightly, mods can kick as well. In that case it affects only this room.

Iszi

@Shog9 Damn. @Simon isn't around. Probably the first time ever I've actually wished he was here when he wasn't.

diagprov

If you go to their profile and ban from chat, they're chat-wide banned.

Shog9

...or, I could demo it that way too

diagprov

16:07

@Shog9 I take it you kicked him?

Shog9

We really need to do some sort of room-owner orientation so folks realize they have these tools.

yeah; just 1 minute for the first kick.

@Iszi, when you get back, read this:

47

A: A guide to moderating chat

What tools are available to room owners? Room owners are users that have some elevated permissions in a chatroom. Typically, they will be the first line of defense when it comes to inappropriate content or behavior in a room. Users will look to the room owners to guide the room. The room owners...

Iszi

Geez. Had to squeeze that edit into 10 seconds thanks to the kick/mute. :-P

@Shog9 Also, did test another room. Yeah, I was able to post there. It was even another Sec.SE-associated room.

@Shog9 Yeah, I think you've literally got some form of orientation for every privileged function/position in SE except for that.

Shog9

@Iszi yeah - kick-mute is pretty benign, although it does escalate: if you get kicked thrice, a mod flag will be raised and there's a good chance you'll end up getting suspended too.

3

Iszi

@Shog9 @RоryMcCune/@ScottPack - In case you didn't get an orientation either.

diagprov

@Shog9 aahhh so there is good graduation there

that's good

Also the tools look fancier than I remember :)

Shog9

16:11

yeah; 1 minute, 5, 30, wrath of the mods

Iszi

@Shog9 Sorry for the constant double-pings. Can't seem to get half my messages right the first time today.

diagprov

@Shog9 perhaps normal users should be able to "vote to kick" then. As of right now our only option is to flag or try to draw the attention of a RO or mod.

Perhaps with sufficient rep ofc

Iszi

@Shog9 More properly: 1 minute, 5 minutes, 30 minutes + wrath of mods

Shog9

@diagprov yeah, I'm kinda mulling that over. I like the behavior of "kick" a lot for stuff that's... Disruptive or annoying but is somewhere short of "horrifying".

@Iszi right

The big difference between flags in chat and flags on main is the speed at which stuff can happen. You get someone upset, throwing their toys around so to speak... It can really derail a room fast.

That automatic suspension that comes with a validated flag is really nice for stopping a lot of that.

Iszi

@Shog9 I think the difference between kick and ban is whether or not the user is reformable.

AviD

16:16

whaaat

why did @Iszi just get kicked??

diagprov

@Shog9 I think way back when I also might have muted the idea that if enough users have a single user on ignore, this should do something also. If one user is ignoring someone, sure, just a disagreement between them. If 10 are, well, that user is probably causing a lot of trouble.

AviD

wait what

diagprov

@AviD shog9 was demoing room owner powers

Iszi

@AviD Feature demonstration.

AviD

ah. very well, carry on then .

Shog9

16:16

@AviD @Simon wasn't here.

AviD

@Shog9 lol nice

Rory Alsop

Hahahahahaha

Iszi

@Shog9 LOL You know the room so well.

Shog9

@diagprov yeah, I tend to agree with that.

There is actually a moderator report for "most ignores"

diagprov

@Shog9 wow the tools have gotten better.

Shog9

16:18

Gonna wager the top-10 there wouldn't really surprise anyone

#1, of course:

chat.stackexchange.com/users/-2/stackexchange

AviD

@Shog9 oh? where is that?

Iszi

@Shog9 lawl

Shog9

aw, no onebox? Way to spoil my reveal, chat.

@AviD mod -> user reports -> ignores

diagprov

@AviD you mean you haven't poked around to see what all the buttons do?

AviD

@Shog9 ah, not per-room though.

Ohnana

16:20

@Iszi you can aboose me

Shog9

no, global

AviD

@diagprov I thought he meant in a specific room.

Iszi

@Shog9 How long does the kick/mute count take to reset?

diagprov

@AviD aaaahhhh. Well still, controversial users tend to be controversial everywhere.

Iszi

@Ohnana ORLY? For some reason, I'd always assumed you were more of a top.

Shog9

16:21

@Iszi 24-hour rolling window

Ohnana

@Iszi quiet you

Mark Buffalo

Hmm. Apparently some "anonymous" group tried to hack Israel, and got hacked back in return, and they're doing dumps on them soon

AviD

every time

Shog9

@AviD so I'm trying to think how you'd even do this for a single room... Users can belong to multiple rooms and ignore is global

AviD

since anyone that wants to can be in anonymous, around half of Anonymous decides to hack Israel every few months. The other half of Anonymous decides to hack back.

@Shog9 hey I never said I thought it through

also didnt realize ignore is global, but yeah that makes sense

Mark Buffalo

16:29

Anonymous isn't a group. It's essentially, you can call yourself anonymous if you want... anyone can do it

A random person could walk into a store and steal something with a guy fawkes mask and claim to be anonymous

Often times, when the NSA dumps something to the public, they'll claim to be from anonymous.

Iszi

@Shog9 Based on the settings of the users who are currently in the room. Or have visited the room within X days.

user11842

@MarkBuffalo How does this benefit them

Mark Buffalo

Benefit who? Anyone can claim to be anonymous.

Iszi

@Shog9 It doesn't really cover all cases of "user was ignored due to their actions in this room", but it does give you an idea of the current preferences of the room's denizens.

user11842

How does it benefit the NSA to leak stuff this way

Mark Buffalo

16:33

@TechnikEmpire I'm uh... just tinfoiling?

user11842

@MarkBuffalo oh ok cool cool lol

Iszi

@Shog9 BTW: Thanks for linking me to that room owner privileges discussion. Hadn't noticed yet that we can actually move inappropriate messages. How is that really different from a mod delete though?

Shog9

@Iszi ok, let's try that. I'll look for everyone who has posted anything in this room over the past 30 days and is currently being ignored by someone else who said something in this room during the same time period.

...5 people qualify

Iszi

@Shog9 For the latter group, should it really be limited to posted or expanded to visited?

@Shog9 How many are ignored by more than one person?

Shog9

All of them

Iszi

16:36

ORLY?

Shog9

I'm not counting people who are only ignored by one person

Iszi

Ah. What's the highest count of "users ignoring this person" in that survey, if I might ask?

Shog9

6

Iszi

Dayum.

Shog9

If I include people who are only ignored by one person, the count is 13

Ohnana

16:37

i think i know who the victim is

Iszi

Is that excluding the SE bot?

Shog9

but that's kinda boring, since I suspect there's a lot of tit-for-tat

@Iszi only one of you is ignoring her

Mark Buffalo

@Shog9 Henry WH Hacker?

Iszi

@Shog9 Wait, when did it get a gender?

Shog9

@MarkBuffalo yeah, so... There are apparently some sockpuppets I should look into here

Mark Buffalo

16:39

Oh really? Interesting.

Am I one of them? ;)

And of them end in .fbi.gov, .ucia.gov, insa.gov? :P

Iszi

@Shog9 I hope you know to leave the bears alone. You don't want that wrath.

Ohnana

@Iszi KLEO is moonlighting

Mark Buffalo

Please tell me @BarryCarlyon isn't a sock puppet of any kind. I will cry for 2 hours of a broken heart if he is.

Shog9

ah, already deleted, just an orphaned chat account with a ton of people ignoring it.

Mark Buffalo

lol

Shog9

16:43

@Iszi mod delete makes them invisible to most everyone; move just gets them out of the way.

Mark Buffalo

I think I'm only ignoring one person/bot. Henry

Iszi

@Shog9 Ah, normal users can still dumpster-dive then?

Shog9

right

but, in terms of getting a room back on track after someone vomits all over it... It's a pretty solid technique.

Iszi

Within the room though, it appears deleted?

Or just migrated like some other migrations happen?

Shog9

@Iszi that - it's actually cleaner than normal deletion.

Of course, you can also use it as it was intended, to break off a conversation into a separate room. Which is useful on occasion too.

Especially as the room grows, as the number of active users with eclectic interests expands, it's often helpful to take a conversation into a different area so as to avoid distracting everyone.

For instance, I gotta figure most of you are bored with this navel-gazing by now...

Iszi

16:48

Hey, it's the longest this room's been stuck on an IT Security/SE topic in a long time.

Of course, calling attention to that only serves to buzz-kill.

Rory Alsop

That's actually pretty useful for me - have been in meetings and unable to do much online so now I can just read the transcript

Mark Buffalo

@RoryAlsop How's the car?

Rory Alsop

Mmmm :-(

I may get it to survive long enough to get a new one without a gap... I may not

Immediate problem is head gasket

Bigger problem is engine block needs replacing

Mark Buffalo

:{

Darth Vader & Kylo Ren - Toy's Carnival 2016

►

Hope this cheers you up

silverpenguin

@RoryAlsop man up, rent a work shop for 2 days and youtube will be your mechanic

Rory Alsop

17:00

I know what to do, and have done similar in the late eighties with my first proper performance car. It's the money that is the issue. Engine block is at least £6k

And the car is only worth 10

silverpenguin

@RoryAlsop sell it quiickly

Rory Alsop

Heh

silverpenguin

@RoryAlsop I thought it was just about running?

Rory Alsop

I know the only likely buyers (it's not a car for normal folks) and I wouldn't do that to them

silverpenguin

@RoryAlsop then you are a better person than I am

I sold a car for the first time a few months back.... Didnt say a single lie...

Mark Buffalo

17:03

@RoryAlsop Yeah that's rough

Do you have good lease deals in Scotland?

diagprov

@AviD yeah it says in the tooltip "ignore this user (everywhere)" :P

Shog9

Lie

A lie is a statement that is known or intended by its source to be misleading, inaccurate, or false. The practice of communicating lies is called lying, and a person who communicates a lie may be termed a liar. Lies may be employed to serve a variety of instrumental, interpersonal, or psychological functions for the individuals who use them. Generally, the term "lie" carries a negative connotation, and depending on the context a person who communicates a lie may be subject to social, legal, religious, or criminal sanctions. In certain situations, however, lying is permitted, expected, or ev...

Mark Buffalo

For example, I can get a brand new truck 149 per month here

Iszi

Nevermind. Just needed to look up a little.

0

Q: Ossim OpenVas - Active or passive?

I am using Ossim and I did a scan vulnerabilities with OpenVas. I received feedback that some of our softwares broke after the scan. We will check the logs to see if the scan cause this, but I was wondering: is OpenVas an active scanner? What are the risks associate with a tool like that? Thank...

VtC too broad/unclear

Mark Buffalo

imgur.com/gallery/09LdnLp

duuuuuuuuuuuuude

diagprov

17:09

@Shog9 y'know, another hair-brained idea for you. Gallery rooms are good for both transparency and stopping distracting pile-on further enraging an enraged user. It'd be kinda handy if a user (or users) could be... shall we say... invited into such a room if they're in the middle of an issue to sort it out without people like me sticking our oars in.

Mark Buffalo

imgur.com/gallery/MaQVX

now I'm crying

Iszi

@MarkBuffalo It was the mounted Bambi, wasn't it?

Mark Buffalo

the 'colored waiting area' part

all of it, pretty much

a lot of it hits home

Iszi

Yeah, a few of them were pretty race-centric.

Man, this is rough. 1400 vulnerabilities in one medical product. Most of them in third-party and/or end-of-life components. Dayum.

grahamcluley.com/2016/04/…

FWIW: At least it's not one of those products that actually gets installed in people.

Rory Alsop

@MarkBuffalo don't know. I just buy them

schroeder

17:31

I love it when people tell me to shut up: security.stackexchange.com/questions/119796/…

Iszi

@schroeder "They all talk about it too general" - maybe 'cause the question you're asking is too broad. VtC applied.

Rory Alsop

and carried :-)

That one is for @Adi and @M'vy ^

but @Arperum may appreciate it too :-)

Arperum

@RoryAlsop heh

Mark Buffalo

17:46

@RoryAlsop full cash, no financing?

Rory Alsop

@MarkBuffalo I try to, yes - financing just sucks money. My house is the only thing I've had to totally accept has to have a mortgage

And I'm none too happy about that

Mark Buffalo

@RoryAlsop Well ain't you the High Tom Titty

Rory Alsop

@MarkBuffalo nah - just not enough spare cash

Mark Buffalo

Well, I'd do that too if I were a High Tom Titty. Buy straight-up

And I agree that financing sucks too much cash

Iszi

@MarkBuffalo Hey, I only got my first financed car a few years ago. But that's mostly 'cause before that I was buying cars which were already 10+ years old so they were usually in the $6k USD and under range.

Rory Alsop

17:48

@Iszi Oh - I never buy new cars

so that's the stupid priced ones right out

Mark Buffalo

I have a killer $0 down, 0% APR deal on my car. No finance money-suckery.

Rory Alsop

way way back when I had company cars (before the tax hit became too high) they would always be under 2 years old. That was fine

Mark Buffalo

Yea, I try not to get older cars due to safety reasons

Newer cars handle crashes much, much, much better

Airbags are much safer

I don't anticipate crashing, but I always try to be prepared

Iszi

@MarkBuffalo Yeah, I'm actually a bit apprehensive about getting anything newer than the car I have for safety reasons.

schroeder

@RoryAlsop thanks - I don't feel it's right for a mod to act on a question when things get personal

Rory Alsop

17:53

@schroeder i figured that's why you linked in here :-)

Iszi

@schroeder Not a bad principle. Though I'd say closing it still wouldn't have been out of line - that was clearly and objectively a close-worthy question. Follow-up action on the user would be a bit of a different matter.

schroeder

@RoryAlsop yep - it's also good to get an outside perspective in case one's head is too firmly up one's behind

Mark Buffalo

@Iszi Because of hacking vehicles?

Iszi

@MarkBuffalo Bingo.

Mark Buffalo

@Iszi That is a completely valid worry... and one I share.

schroeder

17:55

@Iszi yeah, but the question was salvageable with disclosure of intent - so I was trying to help instead of closing

Iszi

@schroeder I really don't agree. Adding "I want to reproduce this in a lab" really wouldn't help much.

My close reasons weren't at all related to hat coloration.

silverpenguin

she's into supersitions... black cats and voodoo dolls

Iszi

@MarkBuffalo Problem is, it's hard to trust that a vehicle's information systems are secure without third-party assessment. And, absent government regulation, it's extremely unlikely that there's going to be wide adoption of that in the near future by the auto industry. Even more unlikely is that they'll actually bother disclosing that such assessment is actually happening during pre-purchase relations, and even less so that they'll say anything about the results - still assuming no new laws.

Rory Alsop

@Iszi simple cars FTW

Mark Buffalo

@Iszi Yup

Iszi

18:01

Then you have to wonder, do we really want our governments getting involved in managing our in-auto IT systems?

What would Snowden have come out with in a world where such regulation existed?

Ohnana

@schroeder oh he's so hosed :P

Mark Buffalo

wtf

Iszi

Oh FFS. Physics.SE again with the no-apparent-reason-out-of-context flags?

It's probably a good thing I'm not a mod right now. 'Cause I'd be severely tempted to just kick/ban whoever flagged this.

in The h Bar, 10 mins ago, by Slereah

Buy Duffield's book

CC @ArtOfCode

M'vy

@RoryAlsop lv16?

Ohnana

@Iszi haha that convo context

Rory Alsop

18:11

@M'vy in 15 days, that's my plan

Ohnana

"why should i buy on amazon" "buy this book" FLAGS

Iszi

Love the first review I read on that book. Particularly the last line.

> If you'd like to learn actual physics, even at a basic level, I recommend getting a book by an actual physicist instead.

Whoah. Even more clarity about the guy behind the book - and also the subject of discussion in both the recent Physics.SE flagging events:

> Duffield has been shopping this theory around the internet for several years now. In that time, he's been banned from numerous science forums for various reasons, including refusing to accept correction, presenting his ideas as established science, and even attempting to intimidate others by describing his claimed prowess at boxing and willingness to travel.

Ohnana

@Iszi LMAO that last one

wtf

Iszi

It's amazing that guy's even allowed to SE.

Ohnana

i guess it was a troll book reccomendation

Iszi

18:19

@Ohnana Yeah, he forgot to hold up his sarcasm sign I guess.

in The h Bar, 1 min ago, by Slereah

I can read a lot of JD for free here and I don't want to

Ohnana

@Iszi LMAO

Iszi

Wow. I can see why they have problems. Even not long after a flag, there's not a single active mod in there. Not even an active RO. There is a mod in the room, but he's idle.

Ohnana

@Iszi maybe they have jobs

Rory Alsop

@Iszi wow

Iszi

The mod idling in that room finally became active and handled the flagged item just now.

Rory Alsop

18:26

@Iszi I would have gone i there, as I am sort of active on Physics, but the H is one I find sometimes waaay too toxic (and people have a go at the DMZ...)

Iszi

@RoryAlsop We banter around plenty, but it's rarely ever (seriously) personal.

Ohnana

it's physics

why are they so mean

Rory Alsop

@Ohnana lol

Ohnana

aren't they all supposed to be slack jawed at the universe

Iszi

18:53

Actually, I think a key difference between this chat and the one for Physics is: In this room, I'm pretty sure nobody here has ever questioned or insulted the professional competency of another person in the room.

Ohnana

oh, that's true

Iszi

Trying to find a write-up on how chat flags actually function. Coming up dry. Anyone?

diagprov

@Iszi read @Shog9's posts up ^^

47

A: A guide to moderating chat

What tools are available to room owners? Room owners are users that have some elevated permissions in a chatroom. Typically, they will be the first line of defense when it comes to inappropriate content or behavior in a room. Users will look to the room owners to guide the room. The room owners...

this has a ton of useful info

Gilles

@Iszi it's happened, sometimes with reason

remember, er, what's his name? Pretty persistent tinfoiler, eventually got banned

but Physics has it a lot worse

RoraΖ

0

Q: Synchronized nonce

If two parties (Say A and B) have a shared secret key (K), is there any way for each party to use the shared secret key to generate nonce(N) sequence which is equal on both sides without having to send the nonce value between them? I am thinking of having an initial counter (C) that is shared be...

random nonce

Isn't this called Diffie Hellman?

Gilles

19:08

@Iszi I think a translation in local lingo would be “buy Steve Gibson's product”

SEJPM

@RoraΖ no

Rory Alsop

@Gilles lol

Iszi

@diagprov Ah, had to scroll to the guide for regular users. Didn't realize it was in the same thread. Thanks.

Ohnana

@Gilles oh lawd

SEJPM

this is entirely symmetrical

Gilles

19:11

@Iszi Please everyone upvote the guide for regular users so that it's sorted first

RoraΖ

@SEJPM True

diagprov

@Gilles done.

@Iszi no worries.

SEJPM

@RoryAlsop do you want to keep the question linked by @RoraΖ here or should we migrate it to crypto?

diagprov

@RoraΖ DH is one way to get the shared value K, but of course, it could just be written down on a piece of paper. As for deriving a synchronised secret, well, both sides could just keep doing a KDF on the nonce value. Plus or minus some details, that's how axolotl works for the hash-based ratchet.

Iszi

@RoryAlsop Did you just get a hit for my flag in the Physics room?

James

19:19

@Iszi wasn't me that pinned it. someone else got to it first.

I was still waiting for the page to load

Gilles

@James ninja'd you!

James

lol

Iszi

@James Ah, well. Still I expect you showed up because "flag for moderator" hits all mods network-wide?

James

@Iszi yes

Without knowing more of the details, that's caused problems with chat in the past.

Iszi

@Gilles Thanks.

@James You don't need to be a mod to know that. Just 10k. In some rooms, not even that.

Gilles

19:21

@Iszi yes, and offensive flags hit all 10k network-wide

James

(but I digress, and i've gotta run. TTFN!)

Iszi

@Gilles Oh yeah, I am very familiar with that.

Gilles

there's a chat moderation FAQ on meta, you should read that

Iszi

@Gilles Been working my way through it.

It's a little unclear on the scope of "flag for moderator" though.

It says "the community moderators" are alerted. This could be taken to imply "moderators for the community this room is associated with" instead of "all moderators chatting across the SE network".

Gilles

@Iszi neither: it's “the moderators who are moderators in that room”, which means any SE mod on non-private rooms on chat.SE, only SO mods on chat.SO, only MSE mods on chat.MSE, and only SE mods who have write access to the room (I think it's write access) on private rooms on chat.SE

chat.SO and chat.MSE make things really complicated if you want to spell them out

Iszi

19:27

@Gilles Still, the actual scope is much more broad than what one can take to be implied by the verbiage.

Shog9

chat.SE makes things really complicated... They're pretty easy to understand on the other two servers ;-P

Gilles

@Iszi I find it strange that you interpret “the community moderators” as “the moderators of the associated site” rather than “the people who are community moderators”

Iszi

@Gilles Another possible paraphrase "moderators of the community" - "the community" here being the point of ambiguity.

Even your suggestion still holds that ambiguity.

"community moderators" - which community?

In the context of a chat room that gets a very visible association to a specific SE site, I argue that it is extremely reasonable one would assume some relationship between the linked site and the definition of "community" in "community moderators".

SEJPM

@RoryAlsop @AviD @schroeder @JeffFerland Why is the CTF question on meta.sec.se still featured?

Iszi

Conversely, this statement (in the same answer post) about spam/offensive flags is very clear about how broadly they are sent:

> When you flag a message, you draw the attention of every mod and 10 k user currently on the chat network.

@Shog9 In here, why is "What should I do with a post that contains sensitive/personal information?" just a mod-only link? I mean, I get that it probably goes to a TL archive or something. But why not also make some of the general guidance public?

Shog9

19:40

wow that's old

and horrifically out of date

1 bit...

diagprov

@Shog9 I love how "why is the f word still allowed in profiles" is in the mod faq and I am disappointed the answer is not "welbog".

Shog9

It pretty much is though

Rory Alsop

@SEJPM because I'm at dinner with limited connectivity...

Iszi

@diagprov I don't get it.

diagprov

Welbog, Super Mario Land

39.3k 6 82 102

xml c# regex xslt sql xpath php

I think it also might be welbog's fault you can only change your name every 30 days.

because on meta

JSONBog, Super Mario Land

20.4k 5 48 109

discussion feature-request support status-completed stackoverflow bug reputation

it certainly used to change every 30 days almost without fail.

Iszi

19:47

Whoah, for a minute there I thought the Moderators list was broken 'cause of this guy.

Move more comments link to top ♦, Eastover, NC

15.5k 3 26 53

battery electrical honda engine ford brakes chevrolet

I was all "how did someone get a question title to be in that list" and... well... let's just say it did serve its purpose.

diagprov

@Iszi yeah chat room 4 is TL

I am being quite nostalgic today

Gilles

@Iszi updated

Iszi

@Gilles 404

Gilles

@Iszi on what?

Iszi

@Gilles The new link.

@Gilles I see that it points to an A instead of TL now. But the link is 404.

Is that on a sooper-seekret mods.SE or something that hides in meta.SE?

Or, maybe behind the 10k wall?

Gilles

19:57

@Iszi no, just a copy-paste glitch, I fixed it

Transcript for