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20:00
@Xander It is worth noting that LaTeX is not as superior to Word in these scenarios as Word is to LaTeX in the others. So, on balance, if you had to choose one tool to use for the rest of your life then Word would be the logical winner.
@Iszi It depends, if I were a scientist whose sole use for word processors is to publish papers on complicated physics, I would choose TeX every time.
having done both, I would choose LaTeX over Word for anything that doesn't involve exchanging documents with other people who insist on Word
There isn't a simple TeX -> Word pipeline?
@DavidFreitag Over one's lifetime, the cases where LaTeX would be the better choice are extremely niche when compared to Word. Even for most professionals in mathematics-oriented fields. Yeah, there's going to be a couple or few decades where they'd want LaTeX instead, but then things swing back again eventually.
@Iszi this is complete bullshit
20:04
What he said ^
@Gilles That's your religion. ;-)
@Iszi s/religion/experience/
Me, I'm content to not have to care much about either. The primary Office tool I get buried in is Excel.
I write a lot of technical documentation. No math needed, typographical quality doesn't need to be great. And yet Word sucks immensely compared with LaTeX.
@Iszi That's because you're convinced that Excel is actually a database.
2
20:09
@DavidFreitag No, it's because I can use Excel to suit my needs well and quickly enough, well before I would have learned how to use the database tool that would arguably have been better-suited for the job.
Word has very little formatting automation, just styles. In LaTeX I define a lot of macros to automate cross-referencing, formatting tables, diagrams, etc. In Word there simply is no equivalent. That's not a defect of Word so much as a defect of WYSIWYG.
@Iszi "I bring a knife to gun fights because I didn't take the time to figure out how to use a gun"
@DavidFreitag No, it's because I can dodge bullets and I'm badass at throwing the knife.
@Iszi Yeah if only DnD were real, then that might be true.
then there are the defects of Word itself, like being incompatible with Word (less so nowadays than a decade ago, but incompatibilities still happen), losing references and having no way to communicate broken references, an extremely clumsy interface to creating references in the first place, no serious indexing mechanism (I'm not completely sure about that, are recent versions finally capable of sorting an index?), ...
20:12
Database vs. Spreadsheet is kind-of like Geek vs. Non-Geek here:
Ultimately, the database wins out over time once you've learned it. But if you're good enough with a spreadsheet, it's just quicker on a case-by-case basis to get the job done with the tool you already know.
Well, excel is suitable for some things but the full stack development outperforms any excel because it has 3-tier architecture, the GUI, the business logic and the database
not like outperforming excel with bash script, that would be rather php, ruby or python
Wow so many buzz words, I think I just puked a little
More likely ruby than python as it's more natural therefore better excel replacement, especially because of GUI and intuitive numbers
Also, barely anyone is asking for anything in excel
Excel is mainly used in typical office as manual labor, not automation of any sort
squeeeeeeee!!
3
@AndrewSmith Says you. Excel is half my frickin' job.
20:17
So if these are ip addresses in excel, it's best to replace it with some serious software, which automates major parts of it
well it is also for me
what can I say, love excel hehehehe, but I'd prefer to export data to excel than actually filling the empty boxes
or doing msacros
Did the Tigger just squee? WTF?
@Iszi haven't stopped bouncing all day!
@AviD Someone needs to cut you off of the Red Bull.
10 hours ago, by AviD
oh and sqqquuueeeeeeee you're never gonna guess who we got as a keynote speaker....
@AviD Is that a sex joke? Does your wife know?
20:25
@DavidFreitag not at all
excited, is all
@AviD Yeah it's probably best if you don't tell her
That could get... ugly.
about AppSecIL
@DavidFreitag so's your face
@AviD Thanks captain obvious
Staff Sergeant, please.
hmm no, thats wrong
looking up the translation
@AviD Don't hurt yourself there, gramps.
20:27
whatever, close enough, I dont give a damn
anyway when I was at the police I was an honorary Major, anyway.
@AviD Oh they assigned you the rank of Major PITA? Nice
pfft
buzzkill, was actually my nickname
I think you have an air leak
@DavidFreitag I'm taking pills for that
@AviD Finally gave in to those emails? Well good for you.
You must spend a lot of time warming your hands.
20:33
@Gilles Out of curiousity, do you produce those documents as part of a team or on your own? My limited exposure to LaTeX is that people's setups seem quite personalised so good for individual efforts, less so when a large team of people need a consistent interface
@Gilles it is entirely possible to automate these things in word, just depends on whether it's worth the effort or not. As an example the organisation I work for produces x00 similar reports a week (stylistically similar) so we have a fair amount of word automation in play
@RоryMcCune On my own. That's the main problem: if I have to collaborate on a document, it has to be Word, because that's all most of my colleagues know.
@RоryMcCune Well usually it's good for conference àrticle. when you need uniform formating
I do avoid writing low-level code as much as possible, I try to stick to standard packages and simple \newcommand and stuff.
but I do have a header with “you aren't expected to understand this” stuff, some homegrown, some copy-pasted from tex.se
@M'vy that's where I see it most, academic articles have a common Look and feel which I'm guessing comes from being produces with similar LaTeX setups
@Gilles Should have left a comment explaining it then :b
20:37
because sometimes that's an acceptable price to pay for writing \domagic{foo} thousands of time in a document
@RоryMcCune Word can do styles, but that's not all the automation there is
We have a word add-in, which I don't know the details of how it works, but does stuff like "sort all these findings according to severity"
and "create a summary of these issues and create a table with the correct format and the first para of each issue"
One thing I want in my technical documentation is automatic cross-referencing. I want to produce a PDF where clicking on a function name brings you to the function definition.
@Gilles Doxygen ftw
Word word these days you can write .NET code which interfaces with it
Yes, literate programming might be a better approach, but that requires a more code-like structure that doesn't lead to well-structured documentation
@DavidFreitag as literate programming goes, doxygen wouldn't be my first choice
20:40
@Gilles Depends on what language your code is in.
but I admit to having no direct experience with it, just seen it in use in code that I haven't touched much
unlike @Simon's mom
Doxygen is cool, it can generate LaTeX documentation for your code
@DavidFreitag and herein lies the problem: I'm not documenting code, I'm documenting a system
As well as chm, man page, html, and a bunch of other stuff
20:41
!rek ovid
@Gilles Right but you can include custom LaTeX and markdown pages to do the bulk of the work and let Doxygen to the heavy lifting in terms of tying everything together.
@DavidFreitag rather the opposite: I'd like to settle on a format where we use doxygen for the API documentation, but then tie it into LaTeX for the architecture documents
@Gilles That's basically what I just said... Sprinkle some doxygen tags in the actual code and marry it with LaTeX and bob's your uncle.
20:56
hey @RoryAlsop, which hotel did you stay at when you were in Tel Aviv?
I honestly dont really stay at many hotels there, and my special keynote speaker is asking to recommend a hotel.....
@Iszi Using Word is like drilling holes in your own teeth with a rusty corkscrew: once you have done it, you need to convince other people that it is the best practice ever, otherwise they will notice that you are completely crazy.
LaTeX is an atrociously hackish programming language, but at least it gets one thing right, which is to separate content from layout.
@ThomasPornin please. HTML has that too.
@AviD Properly written HTML, yes. Indeed, I sometimes write HTML directly, and it still beats using Word.
markdown ftw!
I believe I have rather demonstrated that I can write a substantial amount of text in Markdown...
21:05
hehehe
21:17
@ThomasPornin Being in the same position, I tried it for technical specs. But it doesn't scale well. I especially missed decent tables, formatting macros and seamless internal cross-references.
@Gilles you should try all that in wikimedia's wiki markup language.
y'know, for fun.
@AviD Not really better. One thing I appreciate in LaTeX compared to Markdown is explicit labels — no need for a global search and replace each time I change the title of a section
@Gilles "better"?? No, I meant worse, so much worse.
I hate it with a passion.
Is it? I do prefer markdown, but I have a strong bias because I'm so much more fluent in it.
I see wikimedia's unique markup syntax as the PHP of markup languages.
21:23
...say markup one more time ;-)
If anyone is having issues with AdBlock and speedtest.net support.speedtest.net/hc/en-us/articles/210867718
extensible markup rubbish ;-)
 
1 hour later…
@Xander LOL

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