@AviD Node.js ... WHYYYYY?!

@FEichinger Because javascript.

and - exactly.

"Because JavaScript" is not a reason to use a tool.

Unless that tool is involved in an execution.

Of the person using JavaScript.

do you even node.js bro

Once. It made me love PHP again.

@AviD made me love PHP

@Simon Hard to have Monday when you haven't had Friday yet.

@FEichinger is node.js a tool??

@Iszi Damn, you're a busy man.

hey, you dont need to convince me.

@Simon It's just one of those bad seasons.

@AviD Hey, a wooden club was a "tool" at one point, too.

@FEichinger not if it's full of splinters that do more damage to the wielder.

oh wait, that's PHP.

@AviD And we love it for that.

ok windows

PHP devs are masochists. We all know that.

pain ftw

@Simon ok go

allo

I really do enjoy their choreographics.

?

for example

Scared to click.

@Simon ok go?

was that really five years ago...

Whatever that is.

@Simon dude it's a vevo video on youtube, unlikely to be dodgy

@RоryMcCune My ears are afraid.

@RоryMcCune I think thats what he's worried about

@Simon ok go are good, if you don't mind pop music..

Meh.

I think it was @RoryAlsop that introduced them. It's more about the very visually artisitic videos than the music.

which is harmless enough.

@AviD speaking of cool videos have you seen pomplamooses new stuff?

@Simon this is the one you have to watch:

@RоryMcCune now I'm afraid to ask.

the thumbnail makes it look waaay dodgier than it is

they do some really cool effects

wadafuk

I'm not gonna watch any of this at work.

I think it'd be less weird if I'd watch porn.

@Simon pomplamoose is pretty safe..

if you want one without the random low-cut top

freaky. and catchy tunes.

@AviD they've done some really good covers in the past, and I quite like their original stuff too

@RоryMcCune @Simon is confused by the singing in the music. And the melody.

soz I can't hear you 'cause I'm listening to another great song

I'll allow it.

though I'm confused - there is a pattern here of actual music.

@Simon have you left your evil dubstep ways behind you?

I DON'T LISTEN TO DUBSTEP.

@Simon Sure ya do. You just think the crazy straw of infinite fractal nesting differentiates your crap from the slightly different crap.

I like the word "slightly" in that sentence.

Yeah. Those other crap are way too focused on loops. Too much drama.

wot

afternoon!

so busy today

@AviD @FEichinger What's wrong with node.js? I've never used it nor have any idea how it actually works/what it is.

@RоryMcCune might be able to answer this one too.

@Simon while I admit I've never really used it either, what it is is JavaScript on the server.

A "webserver" made out of Javascript.

Javascript. On the server. On the server.

What it is is whats so wrong with it.

@Simon who me.. I can't really give good concrete reasons. What I would say is that JavaScript is a dynamic language, which seems to make it easier to make mistakes + node is still pretty new and raw and using it for production web apps seems like a... brave decision

Not to say it can't be used to build great apps. E.g. Trello, which I happen to love.

But that's besides the point.

@Simon Because Javascript is a terrible language and the only reason node.js got popular because devs have the misguided notion that using the same language for both client and server is a good thing.

@RоryMcCune It being dynamic has nothing to do with it really. See Ruby, python etc.

I see.

@RоryMcCune The problem is less that Javascript is a dynamic language (also a problem, but apparently not to the hipster neuveau engineers), it is more that Javascript is simply a crap language.

Also, Node uses it's very own webserver. That is a terrible idea.

@TerryChia this. And this is also a stupid thing.

@TerryChia yeah and dynamic languages can be harder to secure (IMO of course). Languages like ruby and Javascript where the concept of monkey-patching/method overloading are common, can be tricky to ensure that behaviour is correct

Duck typing while great for developer productivity is bad for security (without extensive test suites)

Back in the day, when the state of the art was still (classic) ASP, we would pointedly use VBScript on the server and Javascript for the client (even though it was internal IE5/6, which supported vbscript...) specifically to differentiate between server code and client code.

JS is another workaround to fix the web thing so we don't really need to fix "html".

easier to not get confused that way.

@RоryMcCune That is why test suites are a good thing. ;)

not saying you can't write really secure code in Dynmically typed languages, but that there's more scope for it to go wrong in ... interesting ways

Web is a mess, and everything around web is a complete mess, and everything they try to invent to workaround the mess just contribute to the big ball of mud the web is.

@RоryMcCune meh. It's great for coder productivity, not so great for developer/engineer productivity.

@TerryChia sure but from my experience of the ruby community it was only when stability/security started becoming an issue as rails grew up that TDD/BDD really started getting traction

@TerryChia not exactly..... it is it's own webserver.

@AviD Well yeah. Same point.

JavaScript has some additional problems like missing things which are kind of useful, like .. classes

@TerryChia same, but worse.

@RоryMcCune not again xD

hahaha

but yeah, Javascript is not a full-blown language, was never intended to be.

The way forward imo is the approach dart takes. Compile a saner language to javascript. Best of both worlds: sane syntax and highly optimized runtimes.

It was a simple, stupid set of functionality for , ahem scripts. to add basic dynamism to the DOM.

Might as well develop a full application in bash.

ooo.... Node.bash??

Javascript really should just become the assembly of web applications really.

@AviD DO EEEEEET!

@TerryChia why??? Who says Javascript should stick around??

what you suggest is great as an interrim solution. eventually, browsers will support a sane language to begin with.

Arguably, this will probably be Google anyway, meaning it will be based on Dart. Or Go. Or some other hacked together project.

Not because google is better, or smarter, or can do this where noone else can.

Simply because noone else can.

Even if MS were to put forth a proposal, open source, well engineered, beautiful in its simplicity and power - it would still be ignored and pissed on by everyone.

If Apple tried it - well, that's really fantasizing, but IF - wouldnt be much different, and would not get much usage.

@TerryChia How's django? My mate is starting Python and he's not sure which framework to choose.

the only other large browser player is firefox, and cmon.

@AviD The main blocker is that Javascript runtimes are very well optimized now. It will take huge effort to get to the same level for any new language.

@Simon Django is a very monolithic framework. Lots of stuff included but that usually means abiding by its conventions. I prefer Flask.

@TerryChia not necessarily. Part of the difficulty in optimizing it was that JS is a crappy language.

however, compatibility would be the bigger blocker.

Btw, Dart does have it's own runtime IIRC. But only Chrome is willing to include it atm.

@Simon But if your mate has no experience with python, I strongly recommend learning the basics first.

Might be tricky just jumping into a framework without knowing the language quirks.

Ok bedtime. :)

@TerryChia He's interested by the web-side of Python though, don't you need a framework for that?

No idea, I've never done python, I'm just assuming stuff.

@Simon Yeah you do. Probably wanna go with Flask. I personally think it's easier to pick up compared to Django.

@TerryChia Kk cool, thanks.

looks at transcript ... Yeh, I'm not getting involved in this "Why JavaScript sucks" discussion.

That goes very deep, and (unlike PHP) JS has no excuse.

@Simon python's flask framework is lightweight, well supported / documented and is a pretty quick study; however, let's be honest... web programming is not exactly where you want to start if you're learning a language... web programming is hard enough when you know the language ;-). If someone is determined to try, may I suggest Miguel's flask mega-tutorial

@MikePennington Even though he already has experience with web-based languages?

@Simon then there shouldn't be a big issue picking it up... apologies I caught part of the conversation

@MikePennington Oh I've never specified that actually so no worries. Thanks for the links.

certainly... the thing I like about flask is it doesn't come with many inter dependencies... if you want to run without an underlying db, that's pretty easy with flask... django has a strong preference for a db layer

So it's more flexible db-wise?

yes... it also easier to use nosql under flask than django... all that said, if his goal is getting a job, django is the way to go since most python enterprise web services use that

Now that's an interesting point to mention because that's his plan.

django is the default winner then

Haha, sweet. Thanks again.

@Adnan: using high quality randomness is indeed a way to achieve uniqueness with high probability.

In fact you don't even need crypto quality randomness (i.e. unpredictability), only "good" randomness.

That's called UUID (v4), by the way: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/…

With crypto-quality randomness, you can even enforce uniqueness even if other people are trying to guess your values in advance.

128 bits are enough for most purposes here (risk of collision is negligible until you generate a billion of billions of values).

The other UUID algorithms are good, too (using time, MAC address and so on), as long as the value generators cooperate (i.e. don't try to cheat on each other). Therefore, UUID make nice salts for password hashing.

@ThomasPornin I forgot to come get a coffee at your place this weekend, sorry about that.

I hope you weren't waiting for me.

Did a domain transfer today... the way to validate the domain transfer was simply a reply to the original email... that was completely spoof-able. No unique ID or anything in the message that the recipient could use to verify authenticity.

@ThomasPornin big bear!

@MikePennington I'm pro flask, one of the apps I wrote for work uses flask with integration for Elasticsearch

I use flask (and actually often just Werkzeug) for simple stand-alone projects where the size of Django is just silly. But otherwise I replace django's templeate engine w/ Jinja (using a django module called coffin to translate all the tags) and go with the defaults for routing, database, admin, etc.

While I know sqlalchemy is more powerful, rarely ever do you actually need anything not provided by django's ORM. Also, the django admin adds a convenient "backend".

All these kids talking about Python and here I am coding in PHP, knowing it's the best language ever made.

Maybe you guys will understand what it's like to be living one day.

@Simon I think I'd rather write code in brainfuck than php ;-)

@MikePennington I'm sure the day I'll stop being lazy and learn something else I'll hop in the bandwagon.

A decent language, that is. ASP didn't do it.

@Simon unsuccessful troll is unsuccessful.

@tylerl @AviD isn't here so of course it was unsuccessful.

@Simon Also, I dare say I've written several times as much PHP code as you have. :-)

@tylerl You're like 150 y/o so it doesn't surprise me.

You were dumb and silly once too.

@Simon But I didn't live with my mum when was 22

BURN

I'm so glad that I turned 23, that would have been awkward.

Good evening.

'ello

@Kisunminttu Not that good

@Adnan Just an evening, then?

@Adnan seems alright over here.

@tylerl Anything interesting happening around your part of the world?

@Kisunminttu more interesting than normal? No. there's always soemthing new happening, though.

wifey works tonight, so that kinda sucks.

@tylerl True story: when I got 16, I did not leave home. Instead, my parents left (and went 10000 km away).

@Kisunminttu Republicans are whining about how periods and presidencies don't work. So, that's happening over there.

@tylerl Sorry to hear that, is she working graveyard shift?

@Kisunminttu she's a nurse who works nights

so only 2 or 3 days a week

@tylerl Oh, same like @Kisunminttu

I'm sick trying to find out a new reason why u cant use the same key of RSA for both encryption and signature, all reasons I found so far are old and based on "because security says so" or for small possibility that if the private key was compromised then Eve can do both things.. Trying to do some math to find why, does anyone have a great resource to help me out

boom

@tylerl Oh, that's interesting! How long is the night shift that she has to work?

@ThomasPornin Interesting. I'll integrate that into another comment to the gentleman who said that CSPRNG are inferior when it comes to uniqueness.

@Kisunminttu 7p to 7a Except since she's a manager she usually goes in a 6 and stays till 730

luckily we live almost walking distance from the hospital, so she doesn't fall asleep on the way home.

@Lamia question for @ThomasPornin

@tylerl I saw his name and I was trying to get his attention :P joking

@tylerl Oh wow, that's a rough shift, good thing about the distance being short. The night shifts we have are only 10 hours...

@Kisunminttu This hospital switched about 5 years ago from doing 3x 8h shifts to 2x 12h. Fewer nurse handoffs = better care is the idea

@tylerl That's very interesting, I can see the pros and cons of both. If I may ask, which one does your wife prefer?

@Kisunminttu the 12s. Fewer days per week. Part-time is 1 to 2 days per week. Which is pretty crazy.

@Kisunminttu It's unlikely that I'll be able to come to your place tonight. Sorry.

@Adnan Did you read my message about my father not liking the shipping idea? :p

@Lamia On Facebook? I didn't. I don't check that often. I'll go read it

Because I didn't get anything from you here on the DMZ

@Adnan Si, I told u not to bother urself and look for the price hehe

@Lamia Yup, I just checked it. Sorry to hear about your father.

@Adnan Lol, he has a point. Disappointing but convenient. :p

I'm gonna have to call Kinder.

@tylerl I can see the positive side of that very well.

@Adnan It's okay, honey. I'm just going to finish the thing on the balcony and then sleep.

@Kisunminttu Wanna come over?

@Adnan Sounds good, but I won't be there soon.

@Kisunminttu It's alright. I'm still at work.

@Adnan I couldn't get the lanterns on the balcony to come off. I don't have the tools and I'm afraid that I'm going to fall.

@ThomasPornin heh - I had that between the ages of 11 and 17. There are some upsides to being 9000 miles away from parents :-)

Your parents left you alone when you were 11? No wonder you're such a rebel ...

I actually got to live in a pyramid with a techno-hippy

That doesn't sound too bad (unless the techno-hippy is @Simon)

And in the evenings I'd ring birds in an old London taxi in a field

Was grand

Bird ringing doesn't ring a bell to me. Probably something related to the first World War

@RoryAlsop I was hoping that "bird ringing in an old London taxi in a field" was an euphemism

@TildalWave so sorry to disappoint

It actually was an old london taxi, in a field, next to a pyramid

@RoryAlsop well I saw you mentioned it was up to age 17 so I figured that'd be a good age to start ringing birds :)

@RoryAlsop what kind of pyramid?

not one of those bird ringing pyramid schemes again, was it? :P

@TildalWave hahahaha

@TildalWave Just a house shaped like a pyramid and owned by a cool hippy

this one

@RoryAlsop ah, the bird-ringing training camp :))

ayup

Greenpeace had a lot to do with my upbringing

This was a great boat to sail the Atlantic in: