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00:07
Hmm, seems we have someone trying to fill the quota for the day of questions
they really should have some kind of flood prevention mechanism
like, you can't ask more than 3 questions if you are new until someone upvotes at least one of them or something
that way we could avoid having 7 duplicates flooding the front page, though actually, two of his questions are kind of interesting and possibly unique
 
13 hours later…
13:00
One thing has bugged me since I first had a thorough look at DxOMark a little while ago - their results seems to be inconsistent with dpreview and lensrentals on several lenses. How thrust worthy is DxOMark?
The reason I brought it up now is this question
http://photo.stackexchange.com/questions/42113/canon-lenses-sweetspots-chart
13:11
Like this comparison: http://www.dxomark.com/index.php/Publications/DxOMark-Reviews/Canon-EF-70-200mm-f-2.8L-IS-II-USM-measurements-and-review

That's the only place I've seen Canon 70-200 f/2.8L IS II been talked about as less sharp than version I
13:24
Do test results vary with the camera body are tested on?
they test both lenses on same body
I found lenses tested on 6 MP sensor body and 12 MP sensor body, whereas today's entry level system camera is often 16 to 20 MP.
Note, I just went looking at a few random lenses..
13:45
Hakon, one thing you should look too is: photozone.de
It's very similar to DxoMark
but I prefer photozone, you may check it =D
I'll have a look
14:17
@HåkonK.Olafsen right, but it the sharpness may very between camera bodies
DxoMark's biggest strength is also their biggest weakness
they are very rigorous in following their procedure for testing
but their procedure doesn't always match up with the real world
lab tests are great for getting you close to the mark, but still don't make a good replacement for hands on trial in a real world environment
but unfortunately, consistency across a wide range of products is difficult to do in that kind of a situation and what is "correct" is hard to describe
so lab results are the best thing that can be shared en-masse online
lensrentals tends to be more on the loose, but real life side of evaluating
since they are focused on real world use
rather than lab results
but they lack the precision of dxo (though they up for it some in terms of quantity of experience)
unless everyone agrees by a significant margin, I still always order up trial units for evaluation
Not just compared to real world use though, but other sites with lab tests
My concern is based on a few lenses I know or have read alot about, and DxO seem to be the one that sort of don't agree
and the DxOmark score doesn't make sense to me
Dxo has been accused of being anti-canon pro-nikon before based on how they test
because their test criteria tend to favor Nikon's strengths
I haven't read that much in to it, but I've noticed people complaining about that before when looking through general reviews
don't know if there is truth to it or not
but I've noticed devices that do seem pretty comparable in the real world between Canon and Nikon tend to have the Nikon preferred on Dxo
I still think that DxO's comparison of v1 and v2 of canon 70-200 f/2.8L IS is very very strange. V2 is by some considered one of the sharpest zoom lenses out there, but DxO claims it sucks
14:29
I have to say that the 70-200 IS II is very sharp
Do they test more than one copy of lenses?
I don't know
Comments in the comparison asks for a retest with a different copy, but no response from DxO
makes me doubt the whole site
Still looking for a proper description of how dxomark tests lenses
Does image noise come up badly in 6x4" prints?
@EsaPaulasto depends on how much there is
it can
@HåkonK.Olafsen I'll have to post a copy of one of my shots with the 70-200 f/2.8 IS II where you can clearly see the veins in someone's eye, through there glasses, from a head and upper body shot
14:43
Ok, I would have said No, but thought better to ask since I don't know it for sure. Thanks.
so you can see from just a little about waste all the way to above their head and still make out the veins in their eye
if that isn't sharp, I'm not sure what is
generally the 24-70 f/2.8 II and the 70-200 f/2.8 IS II are considered Canon's two sharpest zoom lenses in existence
and my experience so far is that they are
@AJHenderson no wonder that lens is on my wish-list
I've got both of them and think they were worth every penny
I actually regreted spending $600 on a 70-300 f/4 IS USM because of how much better value the 70-200 was
the only problems with them are: prize, weight, size - in that order
even without taking the extra aperture in to account
I easily get 4 times more effective resolution and substantially better color, in addition to the extra lens speed out of the 70-200 in comparison
and seeing as I paid much less than 4 times $600 for the 70-200, it really is a substantially better deal
the size isn't so bad, it isn't all that much bigger than most zoom lenses, just bigger around
it's smaller than it looks from photos after you get used to it
it's mostly the massive lens hood that makes it look gigantor
it is heavy though
monopod pretty much required
I've shot in a pinch without and it is doable in direct sunlight, but shooting with a monopod is far more pleasent
3.5 lbs is a lot of lens
and the 24-70 f/2.8 II makes the 70-200 look like crap
literally my only complaint about the 24-70 is that it isn't a fixed volume lens
so the weather sealing is significantly limited
14:50
I knew I'd seen something about dxomark on lensrentals blog: "DxOMark is not The Word; nothing that tests a single sample can ever be The Word. But it provides excellent sensor data (please don’t twist this remark to claim I said something about their lens reviews; I’m talking sensor data) very nicely presented and easily used."
true - I do have a thing for fixed length/volume lenses
both my 17-40 and 70-200 are fixed volume
which is nice
but the fact that that is my greatest complaint about the 24-70 should show why it is still my favorite lens in my set
once you get either of them though, you will want the other badly
because once you see what quality looks like, you'll want it throughout your range
that's what happened to me
I have seen it, but not used it myself
next lens will probably be then 17-55 IS though
yeah, I mean seeing it for yourself (like using it)
unless I find a interesting used lens
seeing how it behaves in your hand, seeing how it captures the detail you see, seeing how clear the image is in the viewfinder
the whole experience is just so worth every penny as long as you have a way to make back the investment
or are independently wealthy
luckily for me, I do have a way to make back the investment
14:56
We don't make money from our photos, but not too bad off, but not like we can just buy every lens we want
yeah, I'm probably in a similar boat, but I do make money off my photos. I bought the lenses in cash, but wouldn't have bought them over some other things if I didn't have a way to make back the investment
I've already paid myself back for one and will have the other 1/3 paid off from a job I've got coming up in October
granted, I don't make a lot off my photos, but I mostly do it as a service for people to offset my gear costs. I'd do it for free since I enjoy it, but why not charge because I can and it helps me do a better job
I wonder if Sachin will take my advice and come to chat
hoping to put an end to the deluge of closed posts on the front page
?
it seems to be an influx of new people the last few days
right now, less than 1/3 of the questions on the front page (if you sort by newest) are any good
it's primarily been Sachin and a spammer
WebWorm was doing some obvious sock puppeting the other day
he did make one semi-legit looking question today, but it will be interesting to see how he behaves in the future
where as Sachin seems generally well meaning and has some interesting questions, but also needs to learn to use search
since around 3/4 of his questions are duplicates
and he asks them in batches of 5 to 8
I think he'll make a good member though
just need to work with him a bit
it is interesting to look at how many new to SE people we have lately though
which is encouraging
since it means we are attracting people from outside SE's normal pool
but also problematic in that they are not familiar with how SE works
but it's a good problem to have
96 new users in the last 7 days
of which, only 24 are established SE users
15:16
They'll need at least some (20?) rep to come to talk in chat.
oh right, I always forget that
Sachin has it cause he was actually an SE user now that I think about it and also has a number of upvotes for the questions that are good that offset the downvotes on the bad ones
he's actually net positive for all the effort
by about 36
I wish that the chat didn't have that limit personally
since it makes it really hard to help new people
actually, maybe that should be a suggestion
a welcome chat room
that allows new people to talk
though perhaps mods have the ability to do that
wasn't this asked yesterday by the same guy
0
Q: how to choose a fisheye lens

M.OctavioBackground: I'm an amateur photographer who wants to start taking pictures with a fisheye lens, my gear is a Nikon DX D5100. I would like to buy a fisheye lens, I know the Nikon 10.5mm f/2.8G ED AF DX Fisheye Nikkor Lens is reat but it cost arround $700 which I can't afford expending right now, ...

If a person is willing to chat at all, would he/she be able to chat in a closed room? I see no reason for rep limit in such a room.
15:58
oh wait, I just realized, I did post the photo with the veins in the eye showing
@HåkonK.Olafsen it's the one I posted the other day to highlight the power of RAW and dynamic range of the sensor
@EsaPaulasto the one after the post linked to here
sorry Esa, that isn't actually @ you, just using it to backlink since I haven't figured out a way to backlink to my own posts
I suppose I should still post a 100% shot though
because the JPEG compression on that really kills the quality that is actually present in the original
but they don't let you post full quality copies in chat because they are too big
Crop it to show only the face?
That's what I did when showing 100% pixels of non-denoised image yesterday.
posted a full image first in 25% size (50% resolution) and then a crop in 100%.
@AJH That's a pain really, not being able to link to your own lines in chat :(
16:19
I think you might be able to manually if you put in your own line number
but that's a pain to do
@AJHenderson isn't it
Cool :)
@EsaPaulasto it'll be more like a fraction of the face in the case of my 100% crop
but yeah, basically. I just don't have the full quality image with me
so I can't do it until I get home
hmm, I've gained 69 reputation today. I guess I must be a rep whore
(see what I did there)
I'll remind you if you forget. A resolution is not the problem, I think, but the file size. I often post 2456 pixels wide, and sometimes even bigger, but problems come with file size of 4 Mb or somewhere around.
yeah, the resolution of the image is full quality, it's just a 30% jpeg
which effectively is lower resolution when it comes to sharpness
since fine detail gets generalized away
Hehe, will remind about the photo posting, not about rep hoarding ;)
16:27
hmm, I forgot about that comment
but you reminded me
I am entirely too anxious to get to 10k though
should have it within a week I'd think
If you like stats, take a look at number of votes given.
it pained me to downvote dave
what do you mean number of votes given? like the vote counts on the users page?
Dave was thinking about small size prints, and overvalued software denoising.
Yep, users page, votes count.
nah, even for small prints he is simply flat out wrong
if there was any situation he was remotely correct, I wouldn't have downvoted
you are so far behind I don't even see you there
16:31
in maybe the rare case where you are just extending slightly beyond the lens's capability it matters, but other than that, the lens will always make a difference
hehe, I'm ahead of you on votes for the week
though edilsonfb is beating us both
guess we need to step up our game
but yeah, you on votes looks like me on rep on AVP
I consistently have like 5 to 10 times the next guy on AVP
it's kind of disturbing
but a lot goes to who gets there first
like Michael Clark when he is on here is REALLY fast
which is why he creams me on rep generally
but he also deserves it because I'm pretty sure he knows more about the field than I
Well, of course a lens makes a difference, he said it the wrong way. He should have said "don't feel pressed to buy a new lens, the kit lens is just fine for your planned use."
but that also had nothing to do with the question
the question was is the 5100 or 3100 better
and he went off on a tangent about lens speed
I actually double checked the original too to make sure that there wasn't anything about lens speed that had been edited out
Sure did, yeah.
but yeah, I tend to not vote much. I'm more a fan of answering. I tend to vote when I see a problem
like this week I voted a lot because of the spammer and because of Sachin
otherwise, I primarily only vote when I see a better answer when I go to a question
I +1 a question if I think it is interesting enough to merit another vote and I +1 an answer if I don't write one (or maybe more than one if multiple are good) but if I'm writing an answer, it's because I think something important hasn't been said, so I tend to not upvote then
and I don't revisit old questions much
Arrh, this touchscreen typing is just too slow, and add the 3G connection lag.. can't keep up the speed and can't even show a link whereto I'm replying :P
16:37
I should make an effort to do so more often though
hmm, mattdm has you beat for the year esa
need to step up your game ;)
a little under 600 votes to go
I joined in March ;)
hmm, Hakon has you beat for all time
my two year old MBP seems sluggish compared to my GFs new MB Air
(I don't have SSD)
?
Votes?
And I vote a lot because I still read a lot. Not stuck on first page, because I'm still learning and dig up on old Q&A a lot.
@HåkonK.Olafsen yeah, votes
16:41
I do vote quite a bit
^^ given votes, that is.
I'd love to see who has the most negative votes on answers
We comply to the whole idea of SE ;)
by voting a lot..
and there is a certain badge I want to get :P
I am atleast on the second line for votes for the year though
I'm only not on the first page for all time
I've only been around 3 months or so longer than you Esa
16:45
Ok :)
And I'm at work atm.. going afk until back home. Cya
@HåkonK.Olafsen which one?
17:00
Electorate
180 or so more questions to vote on :P
ah yeah, Esa and I both got that one a couple weeks back
dang, one vote away from getting a badge for photo.stackexchange.com/questions/38010/…
 
3 hours later…
19:42
lol for fun I took some pics of some robot demos at work with teh sigma 17-50 2.8 and sent them to my boss, and he went "yeah, just what I needed for the brochures for the exhibition next week".
they dont pay me enough. :P
nice
what kind of robots do they do? mobile or industrial?
both
these were stationary
we put cameras on them and redesign the programming of it, so anyone can show it what to do
I build robots myself
but for research
19:52
so it doesnt require a degree to make it do something
@MichaelNielsen Neat robot arms, I'm used to see them a lot more mechanical, like hydraulic and pneumatic cylinders and pipes and wiring all around
read the "not all robots are created equal" section :)
read it. that is a hot topic
my robot is sooo safe, it doesn't have any actuators and is meant to be used by humans
is a robot without actuators actually a robot?
are you saying that humans have to move the limps?
maybe "doll" is a better word
:D
No, it's meant for blind people and gives haptic feedback
although I only do the mapping stuff
20:00
resaerch is a nice playground
@MichaelNielsen that brings to mind images of universal solider and rockem sockem robots
am I weird
@Unapiedra I play with Lego Mindstorms...
@AJHenderson, I play with Laser scanners and tri-ocular cameras...
I deisgned trinocular cameras in 2004
almost a decade ago..
pointgreys digiclops sucked
I wish I had a laser scanner to play with
we made a rig out of 3 Nikon DSLRs with 20mm lenses instead
20:07
though I have contemplated downloading the software to hack my kinect for a poor man's version
and made our own trigger box to trigger tham simultaneously
there is actually a consumer targeted tri-ocular on Kickstarter right now
I thought about buying one of those too
I do know the guy who wrote labview though
labview, ughh
though I was a little sad not to see him last Saturday
where is the tri-ocular on kickstarter?
20:09
I hate box diagram interfaces
we have a pointgrey xbee3 or something
you have to think inside the box wiht that type ;p
bumblebee xb3
ah that one. I used hte L setup
20:13
the guy is the uncle of a friend of mine
well, I used it as more expensive stereo-camera ;) and then the focus shifted, so I concentrated on the laser scanner
and he has mega MEGA bucks
I had to use Labview during an internship a few years ago
but yeah, I was never a big LabView fan personally either, but I'm a developer
so of course I'd rather have a real language
the problem is that it is easy to do easy things, and impossible or very ugly to do complicated things
20:14
now my research project deals with making a large feature space for classification, using stereo in NIR, colour , and thermal properties with 2ccd RGB-NIR cameras, and FLir a615 and a effi laser random dot pattern, and a elinchrom xenon flash.
sounds fun
I stick to C++. the young padawans at work use C#
hehe, I learned on C++ but live in C# world now. It's a lot nicer unless you need peak performance
in which case you have to go back to C++ and write unmanaged modules
20:16
And if I want to do nice, I can use Python
or just do it in C++ entirely
but yeah, most of my 3d scanning interest stems from the animation and 3d graphics side of things
even if I know CAD/CAM and CNC machining
I only have an advanced high school level of CAD/CAM and CNC experience
but have college and professional level 3d graphics experience, though none of it with a nice laser scanner, even though I understand the process
and that makes me sad
Well, I just finished using that laser scanner...
Take a $5k Hokuyo with 30m reach and quite decent accuracy.
Put it on a servo in a nodding configuration
than use a very crude model and generate 3D from it
which is by far not nice as a result
I'm assuming the robot is not moving during one half-period of a nod of the scanner
disasters are born from assumptions ;)
in this case just skewed rooms...
20:24
I thought I was in the wrong room when I joined
yes, this is now the Robotics room
I don't mind
None of my robotics attempts have ever reached completion so far
20:50
Sometimes I wish we could downvote on comments too :(
21:15
I 3D scanned orchards, using GPS and vectornav pantiltroll /gyro as reference :)
and then a lidar scanning the side of hte mule
and a stereo rig
spanish researchers do similar but assume tehy can drive in a sitrght line
and the vehicle doesnt wiggle
cool
why would someone want scanned orchards though?
can you think of something better to scan? your blind old folk's tea cups?
now adays tehy fly with thermal cameras above orchards
and vineyards
agriculture is getting really sophisticated
as I said, resaerch is a nice playground. who doesnt like to fly with toy planes. you need a lot of toys, and then look to the funding agencies for the correct linguistic coding. then you can play with what you want
and then sometimes tehre is a result that can make business plan and a spinoff company to actually make use of it. but thats pretty rare
true
although the project is in cooperation with a company, so maybe one day it becomes a product.
21:30
the most important effect of having all this resaerch is education. education of the researchers and then a slave workforce for all the bachelor/master degrees.
Or, much more likely a small part of it will be reused in some sort of business
what you mean by "slave workforce for all the bachelor/master degrees"?
where you then have to deal with that a lot of students are just there "just because"
i'm a master student
and I coded 95% of it
in denmark teh universities are packed. and no professors to teach them. so tehy need research assistants and phd students and postdocs to have enough teachers
here it is more a case of there being money in the research, so the prof gives it to a PhD student, who can play around with some nice stuff. I just get to do the ground work
21:33
When I was phd students I had to teach 120hours per half year. 840 was a fulltime. as assitant professor I had to teach 50% of that. Really I had like 1000-1200 hours of teaching
that's a ton
so more than fulltime. and I was expected to also take courses in teaching and do reaserch at the same time
22:03
ah damn, I expected a question to be about digital striptease
and wasnt.

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