VBA Rubberducking

IvenBach

17:09

~~I believe so. It was mentioned that the rubberduckvba.com could be replaced by an ducky icon, but I don't think that should hold up the PR.~~

Any issue with Win7 border?

I'm editing the width so the full OS can be shown.

this

it's really a nitpick on my part but I really don't like how scrollbars don't align to the box - it should have its own box.

Mathieu Guindon

Might be just me but I think I miss the white background here

this

but I'm fine w/ merging and fixing it in the next

FWIW, I don't miss the white background.

Duga

[rubberduck-vba/Rubberduck] IvenBach synchronized pull request #3971: Update about control

[rubberduck-vba/Rubberduck] [codecov[bot]](github.com/apps/codecov) commented on pull request #3971: Update about control

> # [Codecov](https://codecov.io/gh/rubberduck-vba/Rubberduck/pull/3971?src=pr&el=h1) Report
> Merging [#3971](https://codecov.io/gh/rubberduck-vba/Rubberduck/pull/3971?src=pr&el=desc) into [next](https://codecov.io/gh/rubberduck-vba/Rubberduck/commit/1b1fe5cb0a9f3f17e4016128b4808fda16af7982?src=pr&el=desc) will **increase** coverage by `0.03%`.
> The diff coverage is `76.92%`.

```diff
@@ Coverage Diff @@
## next #3971 +/- ##
=======================

IvenBach

Getting resource strings in now. Forgot about those.

Mathieu Guindon

17:21

@IvenBach don't

IvenBach

Ok.

Mathieu Guindon

Gah nevermind it's going to conflict anyway... Sure bring it =)

@IvenBach the only nitpick I have is that I'd like a 5dip border all around, so that the labels don't look like they're right on the edge

IvenBach

Nitpick away. It's how I'm going to learn.

Duck check: Why are my newly added resource strings showing # in front of them in the design view?

Hosch250

Doesn't see them yet.

We use a library for that.

Duga

[rubberduck-vba/Rubberduck] daFreeMan commented on issue #3978: Explorer placement/grouping

> Primary on the right. Shoots that theory... 😉

IvenBach

17:29

Restarting VS solved it.

Mathieu Guindon

clean/rebuild would have been less drastic, but sure :)

IvenBach

I did that and it still didn't fix.

Hosch250

Just don't worry about it.

It works at runtime, but it has some caching at design time.

IvenBach

I have OCD sometimes about why does ...

Duga

[rubberduck-vba/Rubberduck] build for commit f7e593c9 on unknown branch: AppVeyor build succeeded

FreeMan

17:34

> a COM add-in that extends a famously dreaded legacy Win32 IDE

Lol @MathieuGuindon

Duga

[rubberduck-vba/Rubberduck] Vogel612 added label PR-Status: Conflicting to pull request #3934: Code metrics moving and redesign (WIP)

Vogel612

@Duga I'll drop some code behind onto this to get the UI working...

at least that way it can be merged without stalling

Duga

[rubberduck-vba/Rubberduck] IvenBach synchronized pull request #3971: Update about control

IvenBach

@Duga @MathieuGuindon Unless I misunderstood your border request, that should be good.

Vogel612

@IvenBach I introduced an additional string there :(

"You can also find us at:"

"Report an Issue" should also be localized.

Mathieu Guindon

17:45

@IvenBach last one: I'd rather have "Rubberduck" spelled out in RD itself.. "RD" is mostly used among ourselves

Duga

[rubberduck-vba/Rubberduck] Vogel612 commented on Rubberduck.Core/UI/About/AboutControl.xaml of pull request #3971: Update about control

this

@MathieuGuindon unfortunately, i must use 4.6

Mathieu Guindon

aw

this

yeah. won't even play with 4.5.2

Mathieu Guindon

mind making that a reply to Ryan's comment?

this

17:47

at least 4.6 can run on Vista.

not yet -still building

but will do!

Mathieu Guindon

so we retarget everything to 4.6?

I'll post a comment and if it works I can turn it into an answer. According to the docs you should target .NET 4.6 so it's compatible with .NET Standard 1.3. And according to here Windows Vista supports up to .NET 4.6. Can you make all projects target 4.6? — Camilo Terevinto 2 hours ago

basically Camilo has a checkmark-worthy answer there

this

only if we can't get AV to like 4.5 for the other projects and 4.6 only for the analyzer

i'd rather that we leave everyone else at 4.5

Vogel612

huh, why?

Mathieu Guindon

pretty sure AV/MSBuild will complain about it

Vogel612

doesn't that only make it more complicated for us?

Mathieu Guindon

17:49

^

Vogel612

I'd prefer all projects to target the same framework level to avoid inconsistencies and incompatibilities between them

Mathieu Guindon

me too

this

IDK. it seems just downright strange that a project that isn't even a part of the other projects has to be the same versions

Vogel612

belts'n'suspenders, right?

Mathieu Guindon

lol

this

17:50

heh. true.

Mathieu Guindon

#WorthIt

Duga

[rubberduck-vba/Rubberduck] IvenBach synchronized pull request #3971: Update about control

IvenBach

@Duga About window last bit of tidying, for now.

Duga

[rubberduck-vba/Rubberduck] build for commit 91f8ade9 on unknown branch: AppVeyor build succeeded

this

gosh, they do not make it easy to remove/add and update the dependencies. way too much clicking for each project.

I dont' get this.

> 13>CSC : warning CS8032: An instance of analyzer RubberduckCodeAnalysis.ComVisibleTypeAnalyzer cannot be created from C:\GitHub\Rubberduck\Rubberduck\RubberduckCodeAnalysis\bin\Release\RubberduckCod‌eAnalysis.dll : Method 'get_SupportedDiagnostics' in type 'RubberduckCodeAnalysis.ComVisibleTypeAnalyzer' from assembly 'RubberduckCodeAnalysis, Version=1.0.0.0, Culture=neutral, PublicKeyToken=null' does not have an implementation..

Yet the analyzer is working; I get the expected results....

wait, that's a different message

NM, then. Earlier it was saying it couldn't find System.Collections.Immutable

uh guys, Rubberduck.Deployment project has been at 4.6.1 while everyone else was at 4.5.....

Vogel612

18:14

yaaayyy

Mathieu Guindon

@this if it doesn't hurt anything to retarget it to 4.5, might as well :)

@CamiloTerevinto retargeting to 4.6 is in progress, you'll want to post that answer =) — Mathieu Guindon 1 min ago

this

deployment is also an "internal" project

Mathieu Guindon

...that impacts CI pre-releases :)

Duga

[rubberduck-vba/Rubberduck] build for commit 8aae3f4e on unknown branch: AppVeyor build succeeded

this

but we've been shipping them for a while already

with no problems apparently....

Mathieu Guindon

18:17

it's just simpler if everything is targeting the same runtime

this

for the final product, absolutely.

so, I have 990 errors.

3

Mathieu Guindon

oh shit

what are they like?

this

i think i fixed it - forgot to retarget the test project

cleaned and aow rebuilding

Mathieu Guindon

:+1:

this

and that succeeds.

i need to restore the tests from the analyzer project then we can see if AV'll be OK with 4.6 for everyone

blargh this PR keeps getting bigger.

Mathieu Guindon

18:26

it's ready to merge once CI passes, right?

this

no i still have few todos.... it's in the first post of the PR

need a factory for the AddIn object and the installer has to be updated, too.

Hosch250

@this C# 6 was released alongside .NET 4.6. C# 6 is the first one to use Roslyn.

It makes sense that you have to target it.

this

ah I see.

the weird thing is that it was working fine when they were 4.5

Hosch250

Really?

this

just not up in the AV for whatever reasons.

to be clear, the analzyer project was standard 1.3

Hosch250

18:32

Oh, the files were all in the right spot or something.

this

but I can reference the project from all 4.5 projects

if I did not add an explicit dependency on the analyzer project, then it would fail to build after a clean

Hosch250

Did I tell you how I managed to get some files checked in at work, but not referenced in the project (old .csproj structure).

this

because they'd start building before the analzyer project finishes

Hosch250

So, it worked locally for everything because they were just .cshtml files--they were on the disk where it was looking for it.

this

by adding project dependencies, they would always build even after a clean but just not AV.

No, do tell me.

Hosch250

18:33

Threw exceptions on the web server because they don't get copied unless they are referenced.

#fun times.

this

so it blew up in testing environment?

Hosch250

Yes.

this

i love those "works on my machine" symptoms

Hosch250

IKR?

Especially when it would work on all the dev machines...

17

Q: Once implicit/inferred typing is introduced, how can I impress upon students the importance of not abusing it?

I typically have the same students two semesters in a row, for programming I (VB.NET) and programming II (C#). In our early, impressionable time together, I stress to these students (high-schoolers) and show them by example (I write lots of code for them) the importance of writing clear, readable...

data-types

I'm ready to explode.

Man, RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR.

@Frax, VB is unavoidable because it is the required language for progarmming I in my state. — Java Jive 7 hours ago

The state has ABSOLUTELY NO BUSINESS DOING THAT.

Vogel612

@Hosch250 note that that's on Uni Education AFAICT

Hosch250

18:42

"[A]nd since it is my classroom after all". OH YEAH? IT'S THESE STUDENTS' CAREERS YOU ARE RUINING.

@Vogel612 Exactly.

Vogel612

the state usually has at least some influence on the curriculum

Hosch250

No it doesn't.

Only on public universities, that is.

And even then, the state has 100% no business doing that.

The politicians no nothing about anything except lying. How would they know anything about what should be taught?

this

and I think most are more motivated to get more students enrolled in, so that means dumbing down => higher attendance => let's do it!

Hosch250

And how are they going to make sure it keeps up to date?

I'm almost ready to found my own "university" that teaches programming well and industry-oriented.

Vogel612

@Hosch250 true that

well ... some politicians actually get stuff done

Hosch250

18:45

No time limit or semesters. You either complete the work or you don't.

@Vogel612 True that too.

Vogel612

but most of them are on the very local level

Hosch250

Precisely.

And even then, we can't rely on them to be around forever.

Vogel612

the higher up in the gov't, the further removed from the actual day to day issues

Hosch250

So they need to leave this stuff to the university board.

Which then has the discretion to leave it to the teachers.

Vogel612

which then proceed to choose something like java for all courses, which is a stupid idea

or c++ for the beginner courses, which is also a stupid AF idea

Hosch250

18:47

Depends which book you use.

Vogel612

programming and CS education is somewhat broken since a few decades

Hosch250

And I don't mind using one language for all classes--it allows the students to progress without learning a million new languages, which is difficult for beginners.

Vogel612

Java sucks, because it badly attempts to hide pointers

C++ sucks because you have to deal with pointers and memory management

every language has something it sucks at. badly

Hosch250

Yes, but if you have a really good book that teaches that properly, though, and guides you from step one, you are good.

Vogel612

and then you go write an algorithm to concat strings and it's slow AF and you don't know that you wrote a shlemiel the painter algo

Hosch250

18:49

LOL.

As far as I'm concerned, the whole premise of uni is backward.

It's not about teachers teaching. It's about students learning.

IvenBach

@Hosch250 You got a guinnea ~~pig~~ duck right here.

Hosch250

And they need to have the motivation to learn on their own with the teachers basically being able to guide them a bit in showing them how to find what has been tried or thought of by others.

@IvenBach You are already pretty advanced. Now you just need a couple years experience.

IvenBach

I had some concepts figured out in my head. No way to articulate them or what to search for.

That was my bane for so long...

Hosch250

@IvenBach That's where the teachers are helpful. They can give you some jargon to search for, and how to find more jargon.

Vogel612

yay for jargon

IvenBach

18:55

I must've been lucky at my college. All my professors were good and had industry experience.

Hosch250

Talking about that, do you realize it took me a whole day to figure out about compilers and IDE's and stuff from just knowing I wanted to start programming and knowing about Python, Java, and JavaScript?

Vogel612

~gracefully skips the opportunity to rant about Serializable

Hosch250

Most of my knowledge at this point is A) a bunch of jargon, B) C#, and C) SQL.

And then the abominable JS.

this

fwiw, I do think students have to take a bit of C and work upwards. Working downwards is not that helpful; you'll never see the painter algo that way.

Vogel612

@this then again pointers are usually something that leads to a lot of confusion

IvenBach

18:58

Painter algo is 75 units of work done day 1. 30 day 2. 15 day 3. With failing diminishing returns thereafter?

Vogel612

C is great and all, but c++ is not that much higher level

@IvenBach exactly

this

i'm not sure one can get very far if they don't at least know about something about how pointers work.

IvenBach

Meaning the farther you get out it slows down because you have to always go back to the beginning.

@this this.

^ Hey an echo.

this

I"m not saying they should write a OS in C but they should start out writing few simple library functions in a DLL project, then expand on it.

Hosch250

@this Actually, I disagree.

this

19:00

even better if they are then asked to use the same C DLL they wrote in their Python project (for example) so they can see the level of abstraction for themselves.

Hosch250

Great way to lose motivation never seeing your code run.

this

they have to understand the abstraction, or it's going to be blindly groping in darkness.

Vogel612

@this what do you think of Logo?

Hosch250

You need to learn the basic structures before you start learning abstraction and libraries and stuff, IMO.

Vogel612

"move the turtle" and all?

this

19:00

FWIW, it's much easier to run a DLL than a program.

I know nothing about Logo.

Vogel612

@this for you maybe

Hosch250

@this Actually, no.

Most IDE's have a "Run" button.

this

see but it hides all the magic

Vogel612

Logo is a dead simple interpreted language for drawing lines on a canvas

Hosch250

When you get into DLL's, you need to make a second project that references the DLL and calls the member.

Vogel612

19:01

there's "FORWARD(int), LEFT(double), RIGHT(double), UP(), DOWN()" and some trigonometric functions

UP ends drawing, Down starts drawing

there is an implicit current position

Hosch250

@Vogel612 Why the type differences?

Vogel612

FWD is theoretically in pixels, LEFT and RIGHT in degrees

Hosch250

I'd just realized that.

I thought it was 1,2,3,4 for 90 degrees at first.

Vogel612

something simplistic like that which very much limits the "problem domain" can be extremely useful to teach basics like control structures

there even is recursion in the language

and you don't have to deal with the messy underlying pointers and canvases and colors and all that mess

also you get directly visible results

this

IDK - IMO, the control structure aren't that hard to understand in any language.

Mathieu Guindon

19:09

just got +100 and joined that site just to post this:

If you declare an Int32 as Object, you've just boxed a value type, which is terrible sloppy coding with real performance implications. If you declare an Int32 as var, all you've done is shift the reader's focus on the parts of the code that actually matter, as opposed to making your C# read like Java. FWIW you shouldn't even need to mention var until you're ready to get into anonymous types and LINQ. Also, hover the mouse over var, the IDE tells you what the compiler type is. var has NOTHING to do with Object whatsoever. And it's NOT dangerous, even less "sloppy". — Mathieu Guindon 15 secs ago

this

what is more hard to understand is why you are getting obscure error about a variable (that's right there!) cannot be converted to some type (and it is that type!) or something like that.

If they don't teach you how to diagnose and understand why it's doing that, then you're going to be forever mashing the run button.

Vogel612

Says the smith to the carpenter: "I also always think that people should be able to make their own knives and plowblades. It's so easy."

2

this

I love that quote!

Just keep in mind I have no formal comp. sci education... sooo.

Hosch250

blogs.windows.com/windowsexperience/2018/04/30/…

This is great.

@this It's easy to learn about that with C#'s excellent error messages. Just paste the error into the browser and get half a dozen excellent blog/SO posts that tell you more about that then you realized was possible.

Vogel612

@this that's not really relevant. Formal CS education is IME rather disjoint from the "everyday life of a programmer"

this

19:18

On that we agree, Vogel. A good education should be more aligned to what they'll encounter in the everyday life of a programmer. I've seen few "experienced"/"educated" programmers who couldn't work it out that the error they had were due to a missing reference.... :\

@Hosch250 While I do agree that C# has good error messaging there are still few that can be quite opaque without the necessary background. I can't give an example but I know that there has been a number and sometime the error message is completely unrelated to what the fix should be because compiler only knows what it knows; it can't tell you what is the right thing to do in all cases.

Hosch250

@Vogel612 Extremely disjoint.

Mathieu Guindon

IMO CS educators should stick to the theory/curriculum and leave their opinions at home. If my C# teacher has a Java background and dislikes var and calls my code "sloppy", that's his opinion, nothing worth grading.

Hosch250

@this That's why I feel that C# is an excellent beginner language. It makes it easy to do right without trying to second-guess you like VB.NET.

@MathieuGuindon Easy to argue that about truly sloppy code, though.

Mathieu Guindon

however if they go and say "in the real world, you'll have to code using the conventions that are in place in the team you're in. In this course, the convention is to use explicit typing everywhere", then I'm fine with and respect that.

Vogel612

@this FWIW formal CS doesn't aim to educate people that can write programs

Hosch250

19:21

They shouldn't teach a language unless they know the standard style conventions.

Mathieu Guindon

^

Hosch250

Also, I agree that absolute new beginners should use explicit typings.

Mathieu Guindon

too bad the question is protected (and assoc.bonus doesn't count)

this

@Vogel612 then what? isn't the whole point of CS to be a programmer or at least a derivative of one?

Vogel612

it aims to educate people about algorithms, complexity theory and generally the rather mathsy parts of programming

IvenBach

19:22

@MathieuGuindon Something doesn't sit well with me on that. If they are the instructor teaching the course, shouldn't they have an idea about boxing value types?

Hosch250

It reduces cognitive load when you are a beginner.

Mathieu Guindon

@IvenBach they should, yes

Hosch250

@IvenBach Man, how many people do know about it?

I should set up a poll at work.

Mathieu Guindon

you're teaching data types in C# and don't even mention ValueType and boxing/unboxing? get another job, you're not entitled an opinion about var.

IvenBach

I retort with: How many people should know about that.

Hosch250

19:23

@IvenBach Every C# developer ever.

IvenBach

If you're working with something you should know, even vaguely, how it does whatever magic it does do.

Hosch250

@IvenBach To a certain extent, I'd agree. You don't need to know about the C# compiler details, even though you should to write optimal programs.

Mathieu Guindon

I just remembered how much I hated school.

Hosch250

@MathieuGuindon Guess how I survived college?

Mathieu Guindon

pot?

Vogel612

19:25

harsh

Hosch250

No.... You should know me better than that :)

Mathieu Guindon

lol

worked for me anyway :D

Hosch250

I learned programming.

Mathieu Guindon

@Vogel612 /s/r/c/

this

@Vogel612 those aren't bad things to know though. Understanding O(n) problem for instance seems useful. And if they know what the painter algo looks like, then good. But I'll grant that this is something for later years. In the early years, I'd like them to know how to do research and understand the context. That matters way more than they'd realize.

Hosch250

19:26

Kept me mentally stimulated.

this

@Hosch250 what do you have against pottery?

Mathieu Guindon

pffft

Hosch250

@this Screws with your mind. I'd no way be as good as I am if I was high all the time.

Vogel612

@MathieuGuindon doesn't do anything because of the leading space

Hosch250

Also, as I've said before, my family has a history of bad drug/alcohol use. I'm staying away from them.

this

19:28

#HumorFail

IvenBach

@this Teaching others the basics so they can teach themselves. VBA.Interaction.MsgBox != Excel.Application.InputBox.

@Hosch250 As does mine. I'm an odd enough duck without anything helping it along.

Vogel612

@MathieuGuindon welp, isn't doing pot a felony?

this

Not unless you're in right place

or wrong place

Hosch250

@Vogel612 No, just a misdemeanor in most states.

this

it's legalized in Washington and Colorado.

Hosch250

19:31

And legal in ^

IvenBach

California

this

@IvenBach for recreational uses, too?

Hosch250

Also, I believe Maine too, or one of those eastern states.

They tried it in MN. Didn't pass yet.

Vogel612

if I map the terms correctly, it's theoretically a felony in Germany.

this

AIUI, WA & CO legal for all types of uses -- there are more states that allow but only as a medicine or something like that

Vogel612

19:32

mostly ignored for truly recreational use

IvenBach

@this Pretty sure. It was talked about a lot on the radio. I don't pay enough attention to it though.

Hosch250

And apparently because it's "pot" they can get away with smoking it in public buildings and stuff, so if you are in a city in CO, you are liable to get high without smoking.

this

:\

that'd annoy me.

Hosch250

IKR. Really pisses me off.

Especially since CO was one of the places I was thinking about moving to. Lots of tech jobs out there.

IvenBach

Be responsible. It applies to everything.

Hosch250

19:33

ATM, I'm thinking Utah maybe.

IvenBach

Beware of Utah, loads of Utards be living there.

Mathieu Guindon

@Vogel612 biggest hypocrisy in Occident, yes.

Hosch250

I don't get that joke.

Vogel612

@MathieuGuindon after the move of secularization

Mathieu Guindon

ever been to a rock concert?

IvenBach

19:35

@Hosch250 Play on words combining Retard+Utah. Lots of highly sheltered people live there.

Vogel612

@MathieuGuindon nope. well not a big one anyways. Not much of a crowds person

Hosch250

@MathieuGuindon Why would I want to? Bunch of losers being paid to make an execrable noise and give people seizures with their flashing lights.

Mathieu Guindon

lol

IvenBach

Me: Dad, what's that?
Old Man: That's pot son.
Me: The shouldn't be doing that.
Old Man: You'll learn once you get older boy.

^ When I went with my dad to a concert long ago.

Must've been 12-13.

Mathieu Guindon

#LifeThings

Hosch250

19:37

More seriously, I like a very limited selection of rock. Mostly southern rock.

Not enough to go to a concert, even if I didn't get severe headaches from flashing lights.

Vogel612

@Hosch250 Lynyrd Skynyrd, Kid Rock and maybe Brian Adams?

Hosch250

@Vogel612 Yeah.

Gimme Three Steps, All I Can Do is Write About It, Summer of '69, a Kid Rock I can't remember the name of, and a few others.

IvenBach

@Hosch250 Pink Floyd, Jethro Tull, Cream, ZZ Tops.

Hosch250

Selects of Marshall Tucker (they draw heavily on Classical style), not even sure they are rock. I've heard of Brian Adams, but can't think of any off-hand.

Big into folk, classical (especially dance and opera), and marches (I think it's the emphasis on the rhythm along with the tune).

Not very into gospel, although I like certain recordings, mostly by folk/country artists or classical groups.

Mathieu Guindon

#FunFact: Brian Adams is Canadian

Hosch250

19:46

@MathieuGuindon So is Gordon Lightfoot.

Mathieu Guindon

except one of the two is known :p

Hosch250

Yeah. Pity Brian Adams career flopped like that.

Vogel612

@MathieuGuindon get a potted plant to snark at ;)

Mathieu Guindon

goes back to writing unreadable C# code riddled with var

Vogel612

right... I wanted to write code as well ...

being a mod has it's perks. and then you get drawn in to drama around the network and it's three hours later and you're chatting about how a certain chatroom got nuked

Hosch250

19:50

Another one just went?

TBH, they should have starting being stricter years ago, and there wouldn't be this drama.

IvenBach

I could never be a mod. I salute those that help by being one.

Hosch250

I think I could get elected, but I'd be involuntarily removed for snark or something pretty quickly, so I won't try.

Vogel612

@Hosch250 nah

Hosch250

Which is why I'm glad there are people who are qualified to do it.

Vogel612

@Hosch250 mumble mumble

this

19:58

Test Name:	MemberNotOnInterface_DoesNotReturnResult_BangNotation
Test FullName:	RubberduckTests.Inspections.MemberNotOnInterfaceInspectionTests.MemberNotOnInterface_DoesNotReturnResult_BangNotation
Test Source:	C:\GitHub\Rubberduck\Rubberduck\RubberduckTests\Inspections\MemberNotOnInterfaceInspectionTests.cs : line 189
Test Outcome:	Failed
Test Duration:	0:00:00.254

Result StackTrace:
at System.IO.__Error.WinIOError(Int32 errorCode, String maybeFullPath)
   at System.IO.Directory.DeleteHelper(String fullPath, String userPath, Boolean recursive, Boolean throwOnTopLevelDirectoryNotFound)

pls don't tell me we are actually writing to a real directory?!?

Hosch250

:)

Yes, we do that in a couple places in the tests, IIRC, LOL.

this

:(

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