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00:00 - 17:0017:00 - 00:00

00:00
I haven't unlocked them anywhere
my highest is like 2.2k on CGCC
0
Q: What kinds of problems (and associated solutions / goals to strive for) have C++ committee members identified with their proposal culture?

starballC++ has a proposal process for changes to the language and standard library (see also the ISO C++ wiki's page on "How To Submit a Proposal", the Std Proposals mailing list, the list of Standards Committee papers, and the papers repo on the cplusplus GitHub organization). Programming-language desi...

> Please either quote or paraphrase, but in either case, link also to the source.
Heheh I can now sustain the position of most prolific voter on the site
Yeah I purposely avoided votecapping yesterday so I could do FA reviews, and today I was busy taking that AP test
I vote capped 30 minutes before utc midnight lol
00:05
Well thank you for that, since votes are what keep the privs coming :p
0
Q: What are the advantages of `do … until` over `do … while`?

Ray ButterworthI wrote an answer for pros cons - What are the advantages of providing an until loop construct?. The ambiguous question was later updated, making it clear that I had misinterpreted it. So, rather than waste my answer, I'll ask the question I thought I'd answered. What are the advantages of do … u...

0
Q: Why short and long and double and similar instead of unambigous width types such as int16 or int64 or float64?

user16217248Many languages have keywords short and int and long and double as their built-in primitive types. C seems to have started this and other languages such as Java followed. In C one of the reasons why this is the case is because CHAR_BIT is not always 8 so building in and mandating fixed-width types...

@Bbrk24 But like, this is the only problem. Otherwise it works great
hrm, DBA.SE's main room has witty jokes in its about but we don't
"It's always midnight at the Garbage Collector"
or even better "It's always Friday at the Garbage Collector"
@Ginger Does it? I've never been there
yeah, ask me how I know
00:20
What is it?
the about, or the reason I know?
the about
> General on- and off-site discussion for dba.stackexchange.com. Jokes explained at great length (JEAGL) please. We are using SQL. It's always morning in the Heap™ Best gymnastics group anyone could ask for.
@Ginger This is better, voted to approve.
noice
00:23
0
Q: A couple of somewhat strange things with my questions

Ray ButterworthI just deleted one of my answers that had 1 upvote, but my score didn't drop by 10 points. (pros cons - What are the advantages of providing an until loop construct? - Programming Language Design and Implementation Stack Exchange). Yesterday I asked a question here on meta about the details of what

cool
where is emanresu
who knows
@Ginger now to not get that room confused with the bakery :p
00:29
The Garbage Bakery
I mean, it's a different site
blech
@naffetS new zealand
@Ginger I'm used to moving trash to the bakery :p
well just don't do that and it'll be fine
that's all good and fine until you end up moving messages to the database site :p
the misclick that never dies
00:32
wait what
in The Nineteenth Byte, May 31, 2022 at 20:59, by Radvylf Programs
I was about to click "off-topic tnb" then more rooms loaded in and what was under my cursor changed
@naffetS u are me, remember
(For anyone who doesn't know, there is a joke in Code Golf that me and @naffetS are a hive mind, as their name was Steffan earlier and we were apparently confused often)
you should change your username to naggeS
@Bbrk24 yeah, that's how I know what their about is
@Bbrk24 rydwolf once accidentally moved some off topic TNB chatter to DBA's main room
0
Q: Where can we find the details of what our commitment is to this new site?

Ray ButterworthNow that the site has moved past the commitment phase, I can't find a description of exactly what it was I committed to (e.g. minimum number of answers etc.). Where is this information?

0
Q: How could a ternary comparison operator be implemented?

user16217248How could an operator to test if a number is within a lower and upper bound? [SQL seems to have this] as in 10 <= x <= 20. However, if this were to be implemented in a C-style language there would be ambiguity with comparing the boolean/integer resulting from 10 <= x with 20 instead of actually b...

01:11
@lyxal I'm explaining
0
Q: Primitive type names: capitalized or not?

tarzhIn some languages, the types for numbers, characters, strings, hardware-builtins (e.g. int32x2_t), and FFI types, are all snake_case; while the types for structures and unions are all PascalCase. These include C, C++, Rust, Go, Zig, TypeScript, F#, and Dart. But in other languages, the types are ...

Hello? Is my connection working?
and we're back, cool
01:49
@mousetail it almost works now!
expected:
0.0:    NOP
0.1:    GDT
0.2:    PSI #2
0.3:    SUB
0.4:    PSI #7
0.5:    MOD
0.6:    PSI #2
0.7:    SUB
0.8:    NOP
0.9:    BNG 2.0
1.0:    DUP
1.1:    EXT
2.0:    DUP
2.1:    MOD
2.2:    TJN
2.3:    JMP 0.9
actual:
0.0:    NOP
0.1:    GDT
0.2:    PSI #2
0.3:    SUB
0.4:    PSI #7
0.5:    MOD
0.6:    PSI #2
0.7:    SUB
0.8:    NOP
0.9:    BNG 2.0
1.0:    DUP
1.1:    EXT
2.0:    DUP
2.1:    MOD
2.2:    TJN
2.3:    BNG 3.0
        JMP 0.5
3.0:    SUB
3.1:    EXT
I'm 99% sure I know what I did wrong that caused the wrong instruction after the TJN
02:01
And it works now! Thank you so much!
 
1 hour later…
03:05
0
Q: How do I create a DSL within Haskell's do notation?

Michael HomerHaskell has a do notation for writing a code that executes in a monad. I've heard that this is sometimes (ab?)used for creating embedded domain-specific languages, but I'm not sure how that works. Do I need to use an existing monad, or create my own instance? What do I need to put in it and what ...

0
Q: Policy on multiple answers by the same user

kaya3Given that we have quite a few questions asking for possible approaches (e.g. "how to implement", "what syntax options", ...) or considerations (i.e. "advantages and disadvantages of ..."), there are generally going to be multiple possible approaches or multiple considerations, so a comprehensive...

03:33
when are we going to switch to langdev.se?
0
Q: What computation models are typically used when designing a language?

judeI am familiar with the standard computation models like the RAM model, stack model etc. And I also know that operational semantics for a language views the language features as transitions in a transition system. I would like to know whether while designing the language do people have a formal mo...

 
1 hour later…
04:47
0
Q: Pros and cons of reifying the stack in an interpreter

kaya3When implementing an interpreter, there is a choice between implementing function calls either by just recursively evaluating the function body in a different evaluation context ─ essentially piggybacking on the host language's call stack ─ or alternatively, by explicitly representing the call st...

05:15
0
Q: Are there going to be specific tags for every language?

RedzGooseIs PLDI going to include specific tags for every programming language?

06:33
@Bbrk24 Awesome
 
2 hours later…
08:21
0
Q: How can polymorphism in a structural type system be compiled?

kaya3In a structural type system, a type can be assignable to another type without this relationship necessarily being declared. For example, in Typescript {x: number, y: string} is assignable to {y: string} because it has all of the required fields. This raises a question of how a field access like o...

 
2 hours later…
09:58
0
Q: Are questions about the design of ISA instruction-set encodings on-topic?

starballLet's say I'm interested in designing an instruction set architecture, and I want to know something about a specific design or implementation consideration related to instruction sets and their encodings to inform my encoding choices. Is such a question on-topic here?

10:53
0
Q: What are the different syntax options for formatted string literals?

The ThonnuOne option in Python is the f-string: f"{a} {b} {c}" Which is equivalent to: str(a) + " " + str(b) + " " + str(c) What are some other options for formatted string literals, and what are their advantages and disadvantages?

11:16
0
Q: When should I use a hand-written parser over a parsing library?

lyxalThere are plenty of libraries out there that provide tools like LL parsers, combinator parsers, ebnf parsers and more. However, these may not always be suited to the grammar of a programming language. What language constructs/grammar features would create a situation where hand-writing a parser w...

0
Q: Bootstrapping an interpreted language

FireTheLostIs it possible to bootstrap an interpreted language? Bootstrapping, broadly, refers to writing a programming language in that same programming language. This is obviously possible for compiled languages. Once you have a programming language, you can code a compiler for it in that language. Since ...

@NewPosts not me on my way to ask more questions I've faced when making esolangs
 
1 hour later…
12:54
At this point I'm making more passive rep from my existing posts than I am new posts
13:30
0
Q: How are generators implemented?

Bbrk24Several languages, such as JavaScript, C#, and Python, have "generator" methods that lazily yield a series of values rather than returning a single one: function* upToThree() { for (let i = 1; i < 3; ++i) { console.log(`In generator, i = ${i}`); yield i; } } let g = upToThree(); cons...

1k rep
mod tools
aw, I want mod tools!
This is the first site I've unlocked them on
Congratulations on your promotion to unpaid janitor :D
4
13:38
@Ginger use them wisely
Next privilege: 1250 rep, create tag synonyms
I can't reach that until tomorrow due to rep cap, unless somehow every single one of my answers is accepted
isn't it strange how, whenever you mention not having enough rep for something in chat, rep mysteriously appears
almost like I've made that observation before
Heck, I actually might not hit rep cap for once
You get an upvote, you get an upvote, everyone gets an upvote!
13:40
nice, I just hit my review limit
yesterday, by Adám
Are y'all just upvoting everything or actually considitering if a question shows research effort and is useful and clear, or for an answer, if it is useful?
I wonder if I'm the first to do that
@Ginger If I had a nickel for every time I've helped you reach 1k rep on a site, I'd have 2 nickels which isn't a lot but it's weird that it's happened twice
isn't it
@Ginger I hit my review limit the second I unlocked tag wiki privileges
because there was so much of a backlog and I was one of the first ones
13:41
alright, since I am now an unpaid janitor, what tf can I do
@Ginger clean my shoes
what? do it yourself
And everywhere I spilled my chocolate milk
@Ginger ayo you're the janitor
Not me
Unlike you I don't have mod tools here
So not my job :p
Actually I just hit my review limit again
@TheThonnu that is also not what a tuple is
13:54
0
Q: What ways are there to determine if cascading compile errors are dependent or independent?

Robert ColumbiaIn my experience as a developer, a single compile error made in a long program can result in a long cascading list of error messages, only the first of which is directly relevant to the solution. For example, consider the following malformed C# program: namespace Spaaaaaace { public static cl...

@mousetail what is it then?
Either a anonymous struct or just the cartesian product of some types
Python's "tuples" are more like immutable heterogeneous lists than cartesian products
Python tuples are not really tuples
I put "immutable data structures that hold an ordered collection of elements" in case you can't see
13:56
Tuples are often mutable
Traditionally a tuple is not considered to be a collection, but more like an object whose fields have numbers instead of names
@mousetail so I should put "for questions about tuples, either anonymous structs or the cartesian product of some types"?
Those are 2 different definitions, pick one of them
"for questions about tuples, anonymous structs"
Done
It's more accurate yes, but now I'm seeing it that doesn't seem to explain it well but if it's done then that's fine
13:59
I think a good way of formatting tag wikis is like "Tuples are ... . Use this tag for ... ."
Because not all questions about tuples will be on-topic here, it's worth clarifying what kind of questions about tuples would be on-topic
"Tuples are anonymous structs. Use this tag for design- or implementation-related questions about tuples"?
Sounds good to me
@mousetail which languages allow mutable tuples?
Currying isn't quite right either, I'd put it more like "A style of writing functions such that each function takes one argument returning a function taking the next"
@lyxal Rust for example
Anything other than rust
14:08
I believe C# too
Typescript allows mutable tuples
(They are really JS arrays, but TS calls them tuple types)
@mousetail depends on the type of tuple you use
@mousetail done
Nothing about tuples makes them inherently unmutable
I would say the fact that they are designed to be a collection of values that doesn't change would make them immutable
14:10
^
Like if I'm describing a tuple for a FSM I wouldn't want it to be changeable
I mean if you are doing functional programing structs would be immutable too
A tuple is just multiple values
Mathematics doesn't really have a notion of mutability either
Which is where the tuple comes from
In math you can't change numbers either
Nothing is really mutable in math but in programing some things are
Programing has a habit of misappropriating words
Variables aren't supposed to be changed
Yet they are
14:12
Sets in math are also immutable
@lyxal ?
They're called "variables"
@TheThonnu you ever write x = 5 in algebra?
The value of variables can change with respect to other variables in math
y = mx+b
My point is that claiming one implementation of tuples isn't really a tuple doesn't really work
If anything, an immutable tuple implementation is still a tuple just with limitations
Anyway I'm going for the night
o/
Python tuples are not really used like tuples
maybe that's more accurate
people use them like immutable homogeneous lists
but you can't iterate over real tuples since they are fundamentally heterogeneous
14:16
Separate topic, I noticed there's design (5 questions) and language-design (32 questions). Is it ok if I move all the design questions over to language-design?
Seems reasonable
Ok cool
In about 200 rep I’ll unlock the ability to make them synonyms
And compiling (1 question) can be compilers (12 questions), right?
yeah, I would think so
JS brain parsed b, a = a, a+b as b, (a = a), a + b rather than (b, a) = (a, a + b)
14:38
Would a question like "what are the syntax options for integer ranges?" be too simple?
14:48
We mostly have too many "what are the syntax options for" questions right now
I'd hold off on more for a few weeks
People are clearly tired of them
We're currently suffering from meta-Wadler's law ─ 50% of the time I mention this site elsewhere, people cite Wadler's law as a reason they aren't interested in it
Yea we need to focus on some actually good questions to draw experts in
Quality over quantity
Alright, thanks
It would be on topic, just the timing is bad right now
The problem is that all of the really interesting questions I can think of from my own projects, are really niche and would require a few paragraphs just to explain the context before asking the question, and will get maybe one answer. I've been holding off on asking those because I think it's better if I think about them myself a bit first, and because if I ask them they'll probably get 0 or 1 answers which isn't great for the site's stats
14:56
It's unfortunate that we are incentivised to ask questions that would lead to multiple answers, in my opinion the best questions often need just one high quality answer
15:13
0
Q: Could ownership be inferred?

kaya3Rust famously has the concept of ownership vs. borrowing as part of its type system. This allows some level of automatic memory management ─ that is, heap allocations are freed when their owner goes out of scope without being moved to another owner ─ without the programmer having to explicitly fr...

0
Q: What to do about answers that' are trapped in Catch 22 situations?

Ray Butterworth Question #1: What are the advantages of providing an until loop construct? Question #2: What are the advantages of `do {…} until` over `do {…} while`? Question #1 was flagged as ambiguous: Please clarify your specific problem or provide additional details to highlight exactly what you need. A...

15:48
@mousetail until let isn't something I just thought of, it's something that people have actually asked for before.
Not criticizing the idea at all, just poining out alternate solutions to the same problem
:acknowledge:
0
Q: How can switch statements with sparse cases be compiled?

kaya3A switch statement, as in languages like C, Java or Javascript, allows branching based on different cases of some value (the "scrutinee"). It's well known that switch statements can be compiled using a jump table, but this relies on the cases all being within a relatively small range of integers,...

@NewPosts any reason for the downvotes?
On the question and both answers
16:04
Hi again
@TheThonnu The answer might be downvoted because it doesn't say what to do about the (non-meta) answer, which was originally posted to the unclosed question but deleted since it would have been applicable to the closed question instead.
"I would say try to edit it so it does answer the original question, but if that isn't possible, add it as a comment on the original question. I don't think there's anything else you can do about it."
@kaya3 Why where both answers and the question downvoted in a very short time window then?
Not liking one answer makes sense I guess but downvoting both is a bit odd especially considering they go in a completely different direction
and it can't be OP since the question was downvoted too
16:09
@mousetail I don't know; I was just making a guess.
It kinda feels a little weird here that no mods are around
especially caird
Do we have mods yet?
In a few days I think
I think SO's staff takes care of us
or a small subset of them
my guess
I remember reading that PT mods are assigned about a week into beta
Although now I think it might be public beta
Not private beta
16:12
Is it Lord of the Flies until then? Let's riot
*knocks over chair*

*carefully stands chair back up*
Well I have access to moderator tools and everyone can VTC/VTRO
@TheThonnu I think only after leaving private beta
@mousetail ^^^
16:13
Mods on other sites have mod powers here in the meantime
@Bbrk24 I won't get mod tools until I do more stuff here
however this is not the same as CGCC where programming smarts and creativity rules
another casualty of my pfp
You can get mod tools in 5 days
200 per day
1000 total
don't I need rep?
16:15
I meant rep
You can get it faster if you get some accepts
It's super easy to earn rep right now, people will upvote anything
Upvoting anything, isn't that bad?
7 accepts + 200 per day for 4 days + 100 to start with gets you mod tools in 4 days
The only place my answers have been accepted is SO
People can be charmed with a good explanation
@HenryWHHackv3.0 As Adam pointed out in a starred message
yesterday, by Adám
Are y'all just upvoting everything or actually considitering if a question shows research effort and is useful and clear, or for an answer, if it is useful?
16:17
@Bbrk24 I do do that
I don't want to be accused of voting fraud
@HenryWHHackv3.0 Quite possibly
@UndoneStudios voting fraud is only when you upvote one user's posts in a short period of time
Not upvote all the posts you see
Voting a lot is not voting fraud, voting because you like or dislike a person without considering the content of the post is voting fraud
That looks like a missed hindsight by... whoever made that rule
16:18
^^
@UndoneStudios Why?
There is no harm in voting
Because
yesterday, by Adám
Are y'all just upvoting everything or actually considitering if a question shows research effort and is useful and clear, or for an answer, if it is useful?
Just upvoting everything means something suspicious is going on
unless this is usual for beta sites
That's prettty usual
I guess the massive upvoting rush will end after some time
People will still vote for good things more so they'll eventually end up on top, it will just be faster if people choose how to vote carefully
16:22
I have a question I want to ask but I'm not sure if it'll be well-received. I want to ask about array literals for custom types: a special type for literals (e.g. C++ initializer_list) vs having a trait for it (e.g. Swift ExpressibleByArrayLiteral) vs requiring a method with a specific name (e.g. C# Add) vs I'm sure there's other options I haven't thought of
because I somewhat agree with this:languagedesign.meta.stackexchange.com/questions/163/…, even though I honestly don't want to be removed from here
-10
Q: Raising the bar: this should be a community for people who work on languages in a serious capacity

chrisaycockI was a pro tem moderator for the Quantitative Finance SE during the beta. We had to make a decision upfront that the site would be exclusively for people who work in quantitative finance. As moderator, I had to eject non-quants on a daily basis because the site would quickly have become overrun ...

Notice that the top answer points out: it's the questions, not the people
That's a pretty radical take, but if you think the quality is bad maybe consider agreeing with this one: languagedesign.meta.stackexchange.com/questions/161/… or this one: languagedesign.meta.stackexchange.com/questions/144/…
More nuanced discussion
Limiting to only professionals seems like we wouldn't have enough people to even have a site
The bottom line is that I adhere to those suggestions to "avoid the kind of questions we're posting now", which is why I don't really post a lot here. Most of my stuff are low-quality newb things. CGCC is much easier to do stuff on
The comparison to quantitative finance seems a little inappropriate, because quantitative finance isn't fun enough for people to know much about it if they don't have to know it to get paid
16:26
This is also why I asked about the question I thought of just a moment ago: I want to ask it, but I fear it'll fall in with these other "list what every language does" questions
That is true, ideally you'd answer some questions before asking any
because I'm answering questions with code, which is what I'm based on
not that I'm a chatbot in disguise
I beleive this is a example of an excellent question: https://languagedesign.stackexchange.com/q/833/8

We need more of these
2
Yeah, that's a really good question
It's fairly general -- they use C# as an example, but it could apply to anything -- but not so general it encourages a flood of answers
And because I can't come up with those kind of questions explains why I suck at this
CGCC challenge creating is not so difficult
16:29
You don't need to post any questions, if your answers are good enough :P
@Bbrk24 Mine are just improvements
My top answer has literally double the score of my top question
Don't post questions just for the sake of posting questions
If you come up with a good question, then post it
I can't believe I got 16 upvotes by advocating for semicolons
16 people learned a lot about semicolons
16:31
Ayy, semicolon gang
Naturally, my top question is but I'm trying not to post any more of those for a bit
I prefer newlines except for golfing
I only ask questions when I need to
Newlines are good because they're new
If a language accepts either, like Swift, I'll use newlines just so that you don't have to scroll horiztonally to see the whole code
not to get rep
16:34
cool
@user Watch me disregard my own advice and post every question suggested in the definition phase just for the rep
I've seen some of those get closed for plagiarism
Huh
I don't think that's right, as long as you actually flesh out the question
Is that a close vote reason?
because i don't recall seeing it as one
Also, I like looking through system headers on Windows because occasionally you find someone had a sense of humor
#if _HAS_NODISCARD
    #define _NODISCARD [[nodiscard]]
#else // ^^^ CAN HAZ [[nodiscard]] / NO CAN HAZ [[nodiscard]] vvv
    #define _NODISCARD
#endif // _HAS_NODISCARD
Yea the starship question was somehow closed for plagarism despite many questions being copied
16:41
I’m voting to close this question because it fails to meet referencing requirements — Jasmijn May 16 at 22:04
11 hours ago, by user16217248
Copied from example question https://languagedesign.stackexchange.com/q/112/38
I think you have to mention that you copied from the example question
@Bbrk24 I like looking at unused POS terminals that show random Unicode characters just because they aren't being used, like today at a restaurant.
And also it's recommended to ask the author first
But my question about error reasons turned out to also be copied from Seggan's example question (unintentionally)
16:42
Can we close that as plag... no, it's unintentional
May need to add a notice
and an apology
@TheThonnu That has one VTRO and one VTD 🤔
I just VTRO'd so now it has two of those
Can I VTRO?
16:44
I believe anybody can
I don't know
I mean, I can, but may I?
I'm also 15% sure starship is AI, all their answers feel just a bit off
So basically anyone
16:44
@mousetail i forgive you this time
@mousetail The problem with ai is that you can't tell who is AI
no, there are some general pointers
There are?
Go on
There are tools
Not that I think anyone can just go and use that tool on every one of starship's answers
16:47
11
Q: Are you using AI to answer questions here?

Peter TurnerNote: fortunately this isn't just my personal opinion, this policy has precedence in the network https://meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/421831/temporary-policy-chatgpt-is-banned In the interest of self preservation, any posts that look like they were written by chat.openai.com or any other cha...

@UndoneStudios Why not?
from christianity but still good pointers
@UndoneStudios theres literally an ai detection userscript lol
@mousetail I mean, who is interested to do that now?
If you want to I'll take it back
There are user scripts that show x% ai generated on every post
16:48
Nice one
/srs
Starships answers don't feel like chatGPT though, it could be some other AI system. But as I said I'm only 15% sure which is not very sure at all
31
Q: OpenAI detector

Glorfindel Screenshot / Code Snippet About This script adds a link to each post on SE, revision on SE revision pages, and post Markdown views on metasmoke, to check it against Hugging Face's AI detector. The first click will test the Markdown text using the Hugging Face detector API for the likelihood ...

How 'bout one of us try to run a detection tool on that?
No wait that might be cyberstalking
Moderating a site is not cyberstalking
16:50
Fine go on and try it
But another of their posts with the exact same format had 0.05% chance so I still don't know
i get the same exact values
Either it's some other AI other than chatGPT throwing off the detectors, or they are paraphrasing the answers, or it's not AI at all and they just write in a bit weird way
> In addition to Ginger's answer, I have 2 things to add:
they don't seem like a native english speaker at least
Also their about is just "114th user."
They had a area51 proposal about model rocketry
16:55
That explains the name
They've been suspended on some other sites
Just about to say that
It's for different things as well
Promoting content on SO
"Voting irregularities" on space exploration
^
Ninja'd
Low-quality contributions on Super User
And there's no reason on Area 51
00:00 - 17:0017:00 - 00:00

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