I probably don't care at all that's why I don't feel why people would do that

Ok listen up, you can call me whatever gender you want. My pronouns are all but they/them because I have only 1 personality. Thank you.

I should maybe put that in my profile!

(See also Trinity from The Matrix, who everyone assumed was a guy. If you were in that position, having everyone call you "he" would be annoying, but openly saying you're a woman might not be something you want to do either.)

@incesterror21 I don't see what point you are making here..

@Sid I'm trying to understand why someone would put so much thought to pronouns

Not making a point per se

Different strokes for different folks.

media4.giphy.com/media/cwTtbmUwzPqx2/200.webp#6-grid1

They/them doesn't necessarily mean multiple personalities.. It's an easy pronoun to be non-descriptive with, that's the point of it.

You may not care, but others do, so it's a respect thing.

Respect, hmmm...

@incesterror21 not much thought to be honest. For example, my native language has a single pronoun for addressing people. It is gender-neutral. "They" is a similar thing. It is gender-neutral.

Alright, that's the thing. A rule if you want. No problem with that

It's the way society is going as a whole. Personally I think they/them is what it always used to be, 3rd person plural, but clearly society decided to change that.

Incidentally, although many people get sniffy about singular "they" it was used by such famously bad writers as William Shakespeare, Charles Dickens, Jane Austen and George Bernard Shaw. (And many many more of similar standing.)

Also, "they" is similar to addressing someone with respect. Like in Hindi, we have "aap" to address people elder to us and "tum" to address people of a similar age group or younger people.

@Sid .. and "tu" for a buddy ;)

Yeah, that too..

Japanese culture is similar in that respect, but I don't recall English having something like that.

And many others regional based like "Oye", "Abe", "Aji", "Eyy" etc

The only case of plural pronoun used on a singular person that I can think of off-hand is the Royal We

"You" was originally plural (singular was "thou").

You is still plural :P

US-Southerners somewhat famously use "y'all" for a singular you. (And "all y'all" for plural.)

Whatever the reason might be, if I got that correctly everyone is allowed to choose their pronoun(s). In return people are not respectful if they don't use the desired pronoun(s)

@Rubio I thought it was you (singular) and y'all (plural)?

There is that too.

I've heard both.

I've heard all y'all before, but I figured it was just a clarification (like saying you and pointing at a particular person)

I like saying y'all because it's easier, but I am not from the South US

@incesterror21 Does your puzzle needs any certain trivial knowledge?

Hi, just a quick question - is there any way to get an immediate notification as soon as a question (related to tags that I'm following) is posted?

You can change the settings to ping you sooner, but I think that's relative to chat only, not sure.

@Techidiot Not more than in my previous puzzle(s) which means, if I got you correctly, no specific knowledge.

@ShirishKulhari Here So, I think its not available yet

@incesterror21 I'm not sure how useful the word "allowed" is here. I mean, it's not like there's some Pronoun Authority handing down punishments for people who pick bad pronouns. I'd put it like this: If someone has strong and at-all-reasonable preferences for how they're addressed and referred to, it's polite to give them what they want.

Here is more helpful one @ShirishKulhari

Can't you set a tag as a favorite and ask to get emails sent to you with new questions under that tag?

Yeah that Techi

ninja'd :P

Hah Yeah :p

@GarethMcCaughan You sound reasonable, yes. I myself don't care though - feel free to be creative while referring to me!

But like any other sort of politeness, it doesn't constitute some kind of absolute requirement. It's polite to hold a door open to let someone else come through; but if there's a stream of 1000 people all heading towards the door and you got there first, no reasonable person would think you have to hold the door for them all.

@n_palum Already did that. But I get all the notifications at around 3-4 am according to my timezone.

Second what Gareth just said - I am not saying you're automatically disrespectful if you don't use it, but saying you don't care, about something personal to someone, that is when it becomes disrespectful

Similarly, if you have 100 friends and for some reason they all make up their own custom pronouns, you could not reasonably be expected to keep them all straight. And if someone says "Henceforth I am to be referred to only as Om, Almighty Lord of the Universe" then you cannot reasonably be expected to comply.

Of course not ^

I just don't mean any sort of negative thing when using he/she

It's part of my approach for life not to care about such things.

@GarethMcCaughan Of course if you run for and win a Moderator position, then those expectations become suddenly very reasonable. ;)

It's not a matter of being negative necessarily

Ha.

If anymore highly qualified people nominate, I'll probably drop like Brent.

@n_palum isn't Rubio qualified enough? :p

@manshu Yeah, that's why I said more

facepalm

@Rubio Good one

@Gareth Aren't you gonna nominate yourself?

One reason why it's sometimes a big deal is that some people have a very strong preference for not being treated as belonging to the gender they might otherwise be thought to belong to (e.g., on account of their physical appearance). They may find being addressed by what they regard as the wrong pronouns much more unpleasant than you might guess.

@manshu Still thinking about it. It's not that it hasn't occurred to me that I'd be a strong candidate, it's that I'm not sure whether I can honestly commit as much time as an ideal moderator would.

^^ 100% that.

You should have seen the moderators before last elections.

I mean, ultimately it doesn't matter why someone wants to be called "he" or "she" or "they" - it's what they consider right, for them, for that audience, in that setting. That is to say ... one of them is their pronoun. The other, is not.

@GarethMcCaughan and that's when I consider people being overly sensitive on the subject. If you look like one gender but are another no need to get in a tiffy from the obvious misuse of pronouns that you really should be expecting to receive.

Emrakul used to do all the work.

@GarethMcCaughan So those people who care so much about respect should in return respect that I don't want to care about things that don't matter to me (Y)

Erm...

@dcfyj So. Imagine that for whatever reason (maybe you just look unusual, maybe you're trans, maybe evil aliens have brainwashed everyone) people around you repeatedly address you as if you belong to a gender you very strongly consider you don't actually belong to. Many times every day. Are you sure that getting upset about that would be overly sensitive?

Respect should work both way, shouldn't it?

@incesterror21 I don't seem to understand what it is that you are saying.

That's not quite how that works...

@dcfyj You know what annoyed me? When I was 12, and I was calling to order something, and people would call me "Ma'am". Given my voice it was a reasonable assumption for the person on the other end of the phone to make, but it still bugged me. If I'd had a mechanism for advertising that I wasn't a woman, and I used it, and someone kept calling me "Ma'am" anyway, I think at that point I have reason to get a little tiffy.

@incesterror21 Yup, respect should work all ways. But I think a principle that "no one should have to care about anything they don't want to care about" would be a bad principle.

^

@Rubio Me from like 9-12 years old

I don't want to care about what you think is your property, so I just take your stuff. Does respecting me mean not minding? I don't want to care whether your feelings are hurt, so I throw insults at you in front of your family and friends. Does respecting me mean not minding?

Home sick and someone called asking for my mom, I never answered because they'd just start talking to me assuming it was her xD

[For the avoidance of doubt, those are hypothetical. I do not in fact do those things :-).]

Well said

The real Gareth emerges. Starred for posterity.

@GarethMcCaughan No question, there are limits. But what can I say, words don't go over that limit for me

What, never?

Never.

@gareth how are you not a politician?

@Sid He wastes to much time on the internet

@GarethMcCaughan Personally, yes, I feel that them getting angry about means that they are overly sensitive. I understand why they would be annoyed about it. But if you're aware that you don't look the gender you associate with, you should expect people (possibly most of them) to name you pronounly incorrect, i.e. don't get mad about something that doesn't particularly matter. On the other hand, if the other person is doing it on purpose, that's a whole different story.

@incesterror21 OK, hypothetical situation 1. I phone up your boss and tell them lies about you, in the hope of getting you fired. Situation 2. I phone up your husband or wife and claim to be someone you've been having an affair with, in the hope of damaging your marriage. Just words. Harmless?

Harmless

@dcfyj Doing it on purpose is a different scenario. But I also think if it's an instance where it is well known information (and we don't in fact see Emrakul to assume a gender based off appearance), it's reasonable if they were bothered by it

So when you lose your job and loved ones, they'll still be harmless?

Why would I lose them?

@GarethMcCaughan The harmlessness of those two point depends very highly on how much the other person trust you, very highly...

So either we have radically different ideas about what constitutes harm, or we have radically different ideas about causation and responsibility. Since I can't seriously believe you (@incesterror) don't think losing your job and getting divorced is a harm, I guess it's the latter?

@GarethMcCaughan When I ran in the last election, I had similar concerns. I noted in my blurb that I would have limited time to devote to moderation. For some people, that was a big deal, and they didn't vote for me. For others, it was not.

@n_palum Being bothered by something and getting angry about it are two seperate matters.

That they are

@GarethMcCaughan I would encourage you to run, and be honest about your availability. Let the community decide if it is a deal-breaker or not.

Making a natural* assumption based on available information, and making an unwarranted assumption either based on nothing or which actually flies in the face of available information, are also two separate matters.

@GarethMcCaughan my partner would never fall for sth like that. But I see you were drawing a picture.

I can understand being bothered/annoyed about it, telling the person that they made a mistake and thus dropping the issue, but getting angry about someone using the wrong pronoun (when they didn't know any better) is a really poor way to get your voice heard/listened to

So, e.g., perhaps you'd say that if I phone your boss and lie, and then s/he fires you, that just shows that you were on the verge of getting fired anyway. Sounds at least a bit plausible; but now suppose I happen to be your boss's boss. Or suppose I own a newspaper and what I do is to get false and unpleasant articles printed about you all the time. Even if the people I'm targetting are reasonable decent people and positively disposed towards you, after a while I'm likely to achieve ...

... my nefarious goals. Still no harm?

*natural here being that, if lots of people make the assumption based on available information, it's probably safe to conclude it's a natural assumption to make. (not a correct one, but a natural one)

@GarethMcCaughan We may have the same idea about harm but for sure no the same about life

@Sconibulus Yes, that's it. (But you know that already.) :)

Maybe I hire lots of different people to go up to your spouse and tell them confidentially that they had an affair with you and just can't bear to keep it secret any more. You say they'd never fall for something like that, but alas people are malleable sometimes.

btw @GentlePurpleRain did you get my email about the CCCC archive?

Explain a bit more "for sure no[t] the same about life"?

@GarethMcCaughan 100% never

@incesterror21 Well, good for you. Now, how sure are you that everyone else's spouse will be equally adamantine?

@n_palum I was a time "under cover" here. (Had to cycle back from work and shop some groceries.)

You say that words have no impact on you, but those situations are words impacting your life around you.

@incesterror21 All it takes is the right words and someone can be convinced to believe something they're afraid is true

@GarethMcCaughan You should know the amount I care about that

@MOehm No worries :) And you cycle to work? I wish I could do that

@n_palum I probably could, but I don't care to take the time lol

@GarethMcCaughan you should tell me where you are so we can have a chat about it. I feel a public chat doesn't fit the subject

It's actually faster than going by tram or underground. And in winter, I sometimes walk.

@incesterror21 Ah. If what you're saying is "I personally am confident of not being harmed by this, and I don't care in the least about anyone else other than myself", then I'm not sure there's much further discussion to be had. I am not much interested in a discussion of what one should do if no one's interests other than @incesterror21's matter at all.

@incesterror21 Make a room for it then

Get a room you two

(Also, if you are certain you couldn't be harmed by such a thing, I think you're probably wrong. But I have no particular reason to think I could convince you of that.)

You two? Who?

@n_palum cycling is a wonderful way to stay fresh and fit. I haven't cycled in 2 months and Iusually feel

I agree that this is probably not the best place for an extensive discussion of this sort. I'm not sure there's much value in having one elsewhere.

No point in discussing it further then, I feel points have been made, and at this point it's becoming argumentative just for the sake of it.

Lethargic.

@GarethMcCaughan I wouldn't say I only care about myself.

@MOehm @Sid @dcfyj I would bike but there's quite a few highways in the way as I work in a city about a 15-20 minute drive away.

OK, perhaps I misunderstood "You should know the amount I care about that".

@GarethMcCaughan Words, heh? Well, I meant it's none of my business how other people's spouses think

@n_palum Yeah, I'd have to take a different (slightly longer) route to get to work by bicycle

Anyway, regardless, this probably isn't a good venue for a lengthy discussion on this point. I'll just repeat my own preference that I, and others, take some trouble not to cause needless offence, and that this seems to me sufficient reason to abide where possible by others' pronominal preferences.

Agreed ^

Agreed ³ ^

@incesterror21 I think Gareth's point was that you should be careful what/how you say things as they can be misunderstood and cause people grief

and now I'm sorry I brought it up at all. :)

(@incesterror21 whether it's your business how others' spouses think isn't really the point; the point was that it is possible for words to cause harm. But let's drop it now.)

@Rubio Sorry, just got it now. Thanks for poking me. I've added you now.

no worries, and thanks. i'll check it out in a bit

@GarethMcCaughan I'd be happy to extend this some other time. So whenever you feel like it use your words.

The archive is up to date, Scon and I have been on it so it seems

@n_palum Yes, I'm lucky in that regard, because I cycle about 20 minutes one-way at a leisurly pace. But at the moment, there's some discussion whether we should change our offices, so that won't last forever.

Fight the power!

I walk for 45 mins to office and back .. 90 mins/day :p

Google insists I could bike to work in 40 minutes.. I think they presume no lights and I bike at a consistent high pace XD

lol

About the archive: one thing I've noticed is that there is often a space left in the empty Solution box to prevent the Link from running it over too much, but that interferes with the 'Shortest Solution' function

I'm thinking about trying things until I figure out a Trim Whitespace function, but don't want to do that unilaterally

We do seem to ha e low number of nominations this year in comparison to last year.

@Sconibulus I just toss a space in the solution spot until the word goes in - that shrinks the link into its box

@Sid I think people are just assuming who the new mods will be at this point sadly

@n_palum supposedly it would be a 15 minute bike ride for me

@n_palum yeah, but that breaks the Shortest Solution function

@dcfyj I'd do 15 minutes, but not 40

not bad considering it only adds 5 minutes to my commute

@Sconibulus It's temporary while a word is missing xD

@Sconibulus What's the issue now?

Can we change the function to work so that it just counts to the furthest non space character in that column?

but isn't a word basically always missing?

Yeeeah

@n_palum You can do many things with excel (not sure about the google version) but yes you could do that.

@dcfyj The current function is: =vlookup(min($J$14:$J1014), $J$14:$L1014,3,false)

@Techidiot That's how long it takes for me when I walk. But I usually do that only in winter.

@tech why don't you take a bus or do stuff like car pooling with office Colleagues?

To be fair, there's two other options: 1) Hardcode OK (2) as shortest or 2) Post a 1-letter C4

@Sconibulus what did you do to it! XD

probably removed the last row from the lookup? that would be the easiest workaround

I added a Trim

That too

I looked back and all of a sudden there was new columns

oh, yeah, to make the change I had to unhide hidden columns J and K

Well don't tell them that.

@_@

I hid them again after it was done :)

I meant @dcfyj

@n_palum me? I can always delete

like so

although now that I see you handle it makes sense lol

I don't really care if people know my name, but I don't need it just thrown out there for everyone XD

you should probably change that :P

My handle?

it's not like we could have connected it with you...

handle = username

it's not as if it matches your username well and we're good at puzzles or anything

I know that, are you saying I should change my handle

@Sconibulus I wouldn't have thought about it if he hadn't said anything

I know I know Scon

@n_palum No, I meant how your name is showing up on the sheet.

although changing your handle is an option too I suppose

eh, mine is too

at least partially I'm pretty sure

@Sconibulus The t one?

Or the gnome? :P

@Sid That's the only exercise I do.

I'm not the gnome :)

Scon is the T

my name does start with a T though

I removed my last name to just an initial now

last name with a p?

yep

Same :P

@n_palum Your full name is still showing up for me

I wanted my handle to originally be Penguino because that's what my Steam account is, but that already existed here :P

@Sconibulus Yeah for you it's just first name last initial

@dcfyj and now?

Ahh, cool

@n_palum You can have duplicate handles, (they don't have to be unique)

There cannot be two penguinos

nope, still the whole thing

what the heeeck

I changed it on my google profile

I see just P

oh, wait, it's P at the top, still the full name in the chat box

Hmm odd

Ill leave it for a bit and see what happens

I'm hovering over it

There you go. Now it's first name last initial

I think it's still full in the chat

I don't see a chat

Nevermind, found it

@tech I finally watched a cricket match yesterday after 2 years. :P

@Sid there are still 4 days left. Quoth the Rand: Patience, my young padawan (oh, the irony).

@Mith I feel that nominations will exponentially go down as days progress since people get notifications on the first day, itself. If they are not nominating themselves on the first couple of days, chances are rare that they would nominate themselves later.

Hmm, I made a chart, but I can't figure out how to bring it to the top half (or if it's fun information)

@Scon chart on?

@boboquack Done.

@Sid in the CCCC archive

@Sid but the ones who will make good mods won't forget about it if they don't get another notification. Like Rubio.

we get to vote for three people, right?

That's what it was last year

@Sconibulus You get one vote, but you're allowed to pick 3 people to whom it can apply.

Yeah, that's what I meant

The election system is a bit complicated...

If it's not needed to elect the 1st (or they don't get enough votes), it gets applied to the 2nd, etc.

The election system is super cool :)

Yes. Cool... But complicated.

I agree with Sid we are unlikely to see anymore candidates

it shaves off fractions of votes that aren't needed (either candidate eliminated or over threshold) and distributes them according to preferences

And then you get pretty pictures explaining it all at the end!

Indubitably.

Brent already dropped, I am likely to drop if anyone else runs, I wouldn't be surprised if Perry drops. And after the hype Rubio and Mith have gotten, I doubt anyone feels they have a shot so my gut says this is about all we will have unless Gareth hops in. (Which again is backed by support and hype)

Gareth is in.

and so he is, and with that I am likely withdrawing.

:(

atleast be there for fun

We(I) would love to see some competition

Meanwhile, best of luck to you too @GarethMcCaughan :)

It's not competition though?

A healthy competition I meant

@n_palum Nah, stay in :)

I don't see any reason why n_palum (or anyone else) should drop out merely because there are other candidates they think are more likely to get chosen.

Exactly

^ agreed.

@Gareth - ...in your questionnaire answers, be mindful of feeding the trolls...

You think the jokey handles are going too far?

Why is it worth keeping a nomination in?

@n_palum Why wouldn't it be?

@n_palum For fun. Last time I put my name in just for fun.

I mean, did you literally nominate yourself only because you thought "ugh, the situation here is terrible, and if I'm not available the place will be moderated by morons"?

Maybe a little. He is, I think, attention seeking, and that is, unfortunately, what he's getting.

@Mithrandir I don't think I see a plausible pathway from my making those jokes to our antipodean friend making more of a nuisance of himself than he otherwise would. But if others feel that my jokes may act as some sort of temptation, I will happily take them out.

Oooh, I really like your answer to question 2

FWIW, I did think of running this year but decided against it because (a) Too low rep and lack of activity with the tools at my disposal so far, (b) I don't think I would be a strong contender and most importantly (c) I don't know what turn life is going to take next. Hence, even if by some luck I did win, I wouldn't want a situation where another mod becomes inactive and would have to resign(in this case, hypothetically myself)

@Sid Nice. Which match?

Yesterday's match. Suffice to say I enjoyed it.

@GarethMcCaughan No I put it in there thinking, if everyone's pushed Rubio/Gareth to moderate, but in reality they cannot or don't want to, I felt I would step in. But with the liklyness that you would both run and make good moderators, I was ready to withdraw as it doesn't seem worth it being there. I am not much for fighting what seems inevitable.

But I've been proven wrong before.

@GarethMcCaughan I think the names read more like Google Docs anonymous handles than anything, er, more specific. I have no problem with them, personally.

I'm not much of a believer in inevitability, and I don't think it's at all obvious that Rubio and I are the best candidates.

@Sid Oh, yes. That went quite well. Delhi were awesome. Didn't expect them to win.

Oh wow, I got a real answer :)

@Sconibulus Of course!

I was just giving you a hard time

I know :-).

@n_palum I mean, Rubio is literally running on a platform of banning himself, and I've said (honestly) that I may be less willing-and-able to put the hours in than some others. Don't assume that the people best at scoring Imaginary Internet Points are the best people to moderate the site.

(I'm not saying "don't vote for me and Rubio", by the way. We might in fact be the best candidates. Just don't assume we are.)

@GarethMcCaughan (My tongue is firmly planted in my cheek about that, but my answers - and even the actual text of my intro - are, of course, entirely serious)

Now I'm in a quandary...

I can't figure out who I'm going to vote for :(

@n_palum Yeah. @Rubio and @GarethMcCaughan might try to destroy the community after being a mod. You should be there to save us. :p

I don't think it's a matter of assuming you are in my eyes. I think it's a preconceived notion among most members of the community that you two would do the best job. And as a third runner (no offense for being 3rd) Mith is likely to be the next option because of his experience as a mod. (Unless people have the same view as me that it should be a mod for just here)

Sorry, I should perhaps be more explicit that I don't seriously think Rubio would ban himself or wants anyone else to think he would.

Brent literally dropped both jaw and nomination when he saw Mith put himself in the race

@GarethMcCaughan Oh. You are in. Great. Just saw. Took a glance and I think it will take some good time to go through that :)

@n_palum Who knows? Perhaps you're right. In that case, what's the worst that happens? Answer: you're up for election and you don't get any votes. The horror! The horror!

@Techidiot It is quite a read. And full of fun google doc animals

*blushes*

You two have, in my mind, the most complete answers to the questionairre

@insoluble? doesn't that mean it can't dissolve?

I think that he meant Rubio and Gareth

however, not all of those answers are entirely positive, Gareth in particular calls out several potential negatives in his answers

I assumed so, but clarity is usually better than ambiguity no?

You're on Puzzling. Come on :P

Hey @Mithrandir if you win can you try and use the site to smack Google over the internet?

I hope the potential negatives are mostly ones I pointed out explicitly and deliberately. If there are other red flags in what I wrote, I'd love to know about them.

I thought that was Mithrandir's platform. :)

Yes, sorry, N_Palum, you probably have the next most complete answers

@GarethMcCaughan I haven't read it all the way through yet, but I think you're good

@n_palum campaign promise: if I win, I will make a puzzle that smacks Google.

Complete does not always equal good ;)

in that nothing's terrifying that you aren't warning us about

And if I won I would make you make a puzzle that smacks Google

@Sconibulus Good!

I'm actually pretty happy with the selection of candidates. Almost any of the current 8 candidates would be a good moderator, in my opinion.

nice cop-out with the "almost" there :P

and of course, having many plausible candidates makes it harder to pick two :(

But you can pick 3. :)

@GarethMcCaughan What are those names? @user :p Liked that style of yours. Everything is Beautifully explained.

so you pick 3 regardless of how many are going to get elected? I didn't know that

Yeah.

I don't quite agree with your 1 @Gareth keeping a rep threshold sounds too similar to the sandbox.

@Sid probably suited for that other chat