Ah, very clever!

@Deusovi in your crossword-setting, what range of letters can "unknown" signify? In particular, can it be "c"?

@Volatility are you talking about ENROLL or have you spotted something else?

yeah, ENROLL

Yes: C is often used for unknown constants in mathematics.

heh, thanks - i was hoping ENROLL wouldn't be too cheaty

good!

Oh, like in integration? I was stuck thinking it was X.

ah, we have the definition of ARSON now (from 28d)

which means the extra words are used for defining double-wordplay clues as well as extra-anagram-step ones

I'm trying to look for one for AIM (from 7A MIAMI), and "point" in 20D seems the only plausible possibility

so song -> ode

(The process is called letter-banking, by the way.)

(For instance, RETINA is a letter-bank of ENTERTAINER.)

Ah, nice

we still need definitions for SPIT and TYPED

and we still need to find one more spurious word in each of 38a and 38d

(I am not claiming these have to match up; I think there are more clues with spurious words)

since I think we only have six of them so far

I imagine the spurious words are the first and the last

yes

does each one yield one double-wordplay and one letterbank?

and are they always the same way around?

I don't think so

All this chat has got me curious, but I have no idea what's going on or how to catch up... :)

the ones I've looked at so far all have letterbank first and double-wordplay second

er, but that may just be the way I've written them

so that may be nonsense

hang on

no, sorry, it's just because of the order I happen to have noted them down in

but everything I currently know is consistent with each having one LB and one DW

In that case, 20D would have to be a double-wordplay, since "Ocean" is a letterbank (assuming "god" does define 20D)

yup

which makes sense since nothing in the clue looks promising as a definition

maybe

thorn

= detailed point

still don't see how "tea for" or "tea" -> thor as wordplay yet, though

sorry, I mean thor = detailed point because thorn = point

yeah, got that bit

"tea" might clue T, but then we're left with "for" -> HOR

indeed

oh

wait

Oh?

this is not a thing I understand but

Is 38D HES a thing?

here we seem to have a F/H weirdness

and there's another one just nearby

at the intersection of 11d and 29a

where the across clue wants to have F and the down one want to have H

*wants

they're not the same kind of thing

(one involves two clues we think we've solved that have conflicting answers and the other involves one clue that seems like it conflicting parts)

but it's a curious coincidence at least

and Deusovi's reaction to my saying "oh" at this juncture is interesting, too :-)

ah

I wonder if there's an I/S swap somewhere too

the pattern of clue names is taken from a Dr Seuss book

but its full name is "one fish two fish red fish blue fish"

and given the fish-shape maybe there's some further fish-swappery going on somehow

I'm just babbling here -- I don't have a concrete clearly-statable theory for what's going on -- but something in this vicinity seems likely

oh

and also

look at that part of the grid, if you have been filling it in somewhere

middle row of the whole thing

FISHO--O-W-TER

Oh!

I claim I know what the gaps contain

not that I'm sure how that interacts with the putative F/H switchings I've been babbling about

So "scream" defines 26A and "consumed" defines 27A

if it does at all

sounds good

(and we now need things to be defined by "pusher" and "disrespect"; I guess the latter is sPIT

oops SPIT

Sounds pausible

so SHOUT is a letterbank rather than a double-wordplay, which isn't exactly a surprise

I guess SHOOTOUT = SHOO+TOUT

Sounds right

oo, is 27 TETE A TETE (turning into ATE on letterbanking?)

yes

TE x 4

latin and = ET, revolutionary = TE, quartet = TETETETE, surround a -> TETEATETE

Ha, nice

Oh, so in 20D there's a F/H switch as well

the answer is a bit incomplete because it doesn't have any notes of how the extra words migrate from one place to another

yes, that was what I said several comments back

but it seems like a different sort of F/H switch unless I'm confused

Oh, sorry, I'm bit slow -.-

oh no, I see

at least I think I do

the rule is that the double-wordplay leads to an answer before any F/H switching, and the definition migrated from a different clue is for what actually goes in the grid

I think

I suspect, as already mentioned, that there may be one or two I/S swaps to go with the F/H ones. But I have no actual evidence for that yet.

someone earlier proposed HES for 38d after removing input/trouble, and I've forgotten who. It's clearly right at this point and I want to edit it into the answer. Could whoever said it put their hand up?

aha

yes, just realised as well, too slow to edit, apparently

thanks

38a ("psycho I liked had a counterpart" after removing spurious words) seems to be H-I-. Too bad HOIL isn't a word meaning counterpart.

ah

foil

nice

what's the wordplay though?

HOIL is contained in psycHOILiked

oh

so here the wordplay defines what ends up in the grid and the definition defines what doesn't

which isn't necessarily the same as what we had earlier when the F/H thing happened to a double-wordplay clue

so I think we still don't 100% understand the F/H thing

ohhh

"F is H"

there will not be any I/S swapping

Bingo.

Ha!

doh

I was just about to type that @gareth

just caught up to end of chat, and had noticed the f/h swaps and got the F is H right away :)

then saw you'd just got there. :)

good job all, I love the look of that puzzle but have had zero time to work on it

They're not done!

I think we're close to the end now

though the "last lousy clue" is a common enough phenomenon that I wouldn't bet on it

Well we still have a bunch of clues left!

oh, I know, but they're getting there

Well, you know all the tricks, and you do have a grid.

(A grid that's actually semi-useful now. :P )

hmm, there's at least one thing I still don't understand

Hm?

if "F is H" then how can the middle actually say FISH OUT OF WATER instead of HISH OUT OH WATER? Presumably F->H only happens some of the time. Everywhere except the midline??

or only underwater (below midline)?

oh no

F and H are the same thing in this puzzle.

oh, I see. It's not a one-way transformation, it's just an equivalence relation to quotient by :-)

(sorry, the "oh no" was because I'd concocted another theory that your last remark invalidated before I could state it, namely that "fish out of water" means "F is H out of water" and we were meant to pick some horizontal line as dividing air from water or something)

nah, grid and clues were already too constrained for that - the middle line is just a thematic phrase, nothing more

I imagine 16D is one of the foreign words, probably meaning "Boy", with "figurehead - large" -> FL/HL, although I can't find anything that fits

could be a letterbank

plausible on both counts.

Oh, "writer" -> DAHL

ooo

F LAD

or something

is there an "about" in the clue? I forget

no

yeah, "to get" will do

so it's LAD backwards with F inside making DAHL

Ah

but what about the "large"?

that's a good question

is it possible that there's meant to be another word on the front and then that and "large" are spurious and need to be used as definitions elsewhere?

@Deusovi, there isn't a glitch of that sort in 16d is there?

nope, the clue is correct as-is

(I'm expecting the answer to be no, but might as well check)

OK

(but a bit unusual)

I have another reason for thinking DAHL is probably right

which is that I suspect 15a of being GOLDENEYE but haven't thought it through yet

I guess then "edgy" and "writer" are spurious

"writer" giving DAHL of course

"gen-I" -> GENEYE, "ancient" -> OLD

and then we have, yes, GEN EYE with OLD inside

Well, apparently Dahl was a very tall guy, so "large" might refer somehow to that?

seems unlikely

25d is interesting too. It seems to be LA--OST but my computer's wordlist has no words matching that pattern. Hmm, did I say that already? I forget. It's a bit of an odd clue, too.

ah, must be LAMPPOST

pp = very soft and will become P on entry

haha

drunkards use lampposts for support

what's the rest of the clue again?

brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/v/vinscully205138.html

Spaniards, the best at folding very soft support for 23D perhaps

so LAMOST is LA MOST

LA = "spaniards' the". I think @Deusovi was a bit naughty here; that apostrophe is not optional.

ah, whoops - I originally had it as "Spaniard the" (where it was an adjective in the cryptic reading)

Fair enough

changed it for the surface reading, forgetting that I'd need an apostrophe

so is 33a PIMP or PUMP? Neither is instantly convincing.

(is "dog" a slang term for a pimp, maybe? Might be but I don't think I've ever heard it)

or maybe it's meant to be "pusher" which is left over from 3d

though pimps and pushers are quite different sorts of disreputable character

unless I'm all confused

"pusher" = PUMP

oh

stupid me

:P

must be a double-wordplay (can't be a letterbank with two Ps)

"dog hugging M.P. referee"

oh

oh

no, sorry, I thought I half-understood it

but I don't even half understand it

PU(M)P, P+UMP

oh

M. P. are separate

uggg

:D

that's just as naughty as Rand's "inseminate"

that's sneaky

boooo

I spaced them out so you wouldn't have that excuse! :P

yeah, I just noticed that while editing the answer and was about to come back here to apologize for maligning you

oh, you have perfectly valid reasons to malign me

that just happened to not be one of them

yow, sorry @Volatility, I meant to credit you for that one and forgot. At least I didn't put @Gareth on it by reflex.

thanks for fixing it

no worries

I want 12a to be something like ABOMINATE but it has to end in T and I don't see how any of it other than "hate" would work :-).

21d might be RIPOSTE; if so it's a double-wordplay but I don't quite get it. Second half might be because it sounds a bit like "repost" though the way I pronounce it it isn't very close. First half would have to be S or ST inside something clued by "repeated task" and RIPOTE and RIPOE both fail to mean that so far as I can see.

dunno whether that's right but it suggests R at the start of 2a which I think is ROBBER entered ROBER

"Backtalk" could be a definition

I haven't actually done the letter-counting but I think ROBBER appears "regularly" in the stuff to the left of "regular" in the clue

yeah, it does

oh, every third

yes

If "backtalk" is a definition, then "gone" has to be too, which could refer to 7A M.I.A. instead of AIM

I was never keen on losing "point" since I think we need it for THOR

Me neither

perhaps 4d is BYE

I don't see how the wordplay works yet

3D could be OAR? but don't see how the wordplay woks there either

BOAR minus one of its letters

that seems very convincing

Ah

I think you should get the credit this time @Gareth ;-)

I think 5d may be EASE (definition "peace" from the same clue as "commercials")

Haha, that's naughty

but I'm still not quite clear how the rest of it works

must be double-wordplay

PLEASE means satisfy, near enough, but PL isn't "game" (is it?)

"fear" -> "hear"

ah, yes

E's -> EASE

yes, yes, that bit I understood

oh ok

(I hadn't spotted fear->hear, but I did see EASE = Es)

(it hadn't occurred to me before that "F is H" could apply to the clues)

(we should look for other places)

fate not hate, perhaps

foe, not hoe perhaps -> a BYE game

niiiiice

so what's 12a if it's fate rather than hate? Currently seems to be A-PRES--T which isn't ringing any bells

A_PRESENT?

could be, but what's the blank?

I can imagine APPRESENT being a word but I wouldn't have thought it could mean either fate or hate

No idea

Oh, AT PRESENT = "now"

so it's a double wordplay

of course!

"hate" -> RESENT, maybe?

and then ATP, "energy carrier"

yeah

how does "symbolic" -> AT though?

not sure

maybe because of the at-sign??

(@)

seems a little iffy but not impossible; @Deusovi, would you care to confirm or deny?

An "at" present is a symbolic gift

Not quite sure if it's kosher.

it seems we agree :-)

so 9d is ONE

which is certainly "glitchy Neo"

but how do we make it actually work?

do we need "guide" and "home" for definitions elsewhere? I don't think so

Is that some sort of &lit I don't get cause I haven't seen The Matrix?

I don't think so

I should say that I don't actually know 9d is ONE, it just looks like it

hmm, actually we only seem to have 10 clues with spurious words in unless I've failed to record one

in which case maybe "guide" and "home" are spurious and need to be used elsewhere

sigh, maybe it's time to do a careful tallying-and-matching exercise, but I don't wanna

if "guide" and "home" were excised, the entire clue would be "glitchy Neo". That doesn't seem possible; there isn't space for a definition + wordplay here. Oh, unless that is an &lit

wait, I always get confused by &lit clues

yeah, that's what I meant

we'd then have the whole thing (glitchy Neo) being wordplay

but just a part of it (Neo) being definition, and a pretty poor definition for "One" too if I may say so (it would be OK as a clue for THE ONE rather than just ONE)

I count 10 of those clues as well

but with an &lit the whole thing is meant to be definition AND the whole thing is meant to be wordplay

and I don't really see how "glitchy Neo" is a usable definition of ONE

(I mean, the notion of glitches appears in the movie but it's not particularly Neo who's glitchy)

yeah, it was intended to be an &lit for ONE

OK

i didn't realize the "The" was an integral part of it

well, maybe you can drop it (kinda like people use "Christ" as if it's a proper name when really it's a title, "the Christ"; example chosen because the Christ story is a blatant ripoff of the Neo myth -- or is it the other way around? I always forget)

but I'm pretty sure it's always "the One" in the movie

and i'd say he's pretty "glitchy" in the sense of "glitch-causing" rather than "glitch-affected"

hmmmmmmmm, not terribly convinced but never mind, it was clearly good enough to get solved :-)

(unlike my latest CCCC which I contend is a really excellent clue, why haven't you solved it yet while we've been solving dozens, dozens I tell you, of your clues?)

:-)