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12:00 AM
Speaking of chocolate, 80% dark chocolate is borderline edible to me. Have you heard of 99%?
have i heard of what
3 hours ago, by Mithical
A: Questions about the new minimum age for diamond moderators

MithicalLess of a question than just... I'm disappointed. You state: We understand that this is a change some may be disappointed by and that it may seem to indicate that we don't believe that younger members of our communities can be great moderators - over the years we have known many mods who started...

1:10 AM
anyone got thoughts on this?
I rage-wrote a meta post
before the heading is "It's been pointed out that this hasn't really been brought up in meta. (It's only been discussed in chat) So, for the sake of non-chatters:" in regular font, but it didn't fit in the screenshot
That looks good to me, I don't mind you bringing me up - possibly there are other users who use screen readers we can ask for a second opinion? It's possible some people have screen readers that can process MathJax and I'm curious if we could search for other user experiences with it.
1:31 AM
looks pretty good :)
just rejected an edit that ADDED mathjax to a post that didn't need it
1:53 AM
today after school: finishing up classwork, reading news, playing Codenames, tutoring, playing Codenames, oh no I have to watch this before tomorrow, watching the require videos at 1.5 speed
Q: An issue with the [affix-riddle] tag wiki

ention everyoneAffix riddles are really versatile; they come in all forms. I have an issue with the tag wiki of the affix-riddle tag. Here is the current description: An affix riddle is a specific type of riddle that uses wordplay, specifically describing multiple affixes (usually prefix-infix-suffix), to clue...

I usually don't do stuff like that, but I honestly forgot the videos were assigned... oh well, I did manage to take notes on them so I should be good
also they were for econ, and there's a chance we don't do any econ at all because my teacher is... well...
Nov 9 at 17:04, by Sciborg
typical econ class: supply-demand chains, productivity, finance
your class, apparently: "every law is enforced by the barrel of a gun..." *drags on weed pipe*
Yeah :p
Your class is definitely... interesting
For the meta post, I found a blurb on MathJax's website listing the screen readers that fully support the internal MathJax language and can read it. There are only three of them. (ChromeVox, JAWS on Internet Explorer only, and Texthelp.) Other screen readers have to use the AssistiveMML extension, which says "the quality of MathML support in screenreaders varies greatly."
2:17 AM
Not to mention that mathematics notation itself is ambiguous as hell, and one often needs to understand the context in order to read it out correctly
Yeah. So overall it's a mess
Oct 20 at 23:32, by Bubbler
Math notations are ambiguous as hell.
2 hours later…
4:09 AM
Q: Minimal Length Highway System

Kunal kumarFour cities are located at the four corners of a square. The distance between adjacent cities is 100 miles. Your task is to come up with a highway system that connects all cities to each other with minimal cost. The cost for building a highway is $100K per mile, so you really want to figure out t...

4:31 AM
@PrinceNorthLæraðr @bobble @Sciborg I make hot cocoa with cocoa powder (baking cocoa). Sometimes I add sugar.
@Bubbler ^
The Big Debate: how to take your hot chocolate
That's bitter
Watch the Puzzlers in the Lair fight!
4:32 AM
Next up at 11, after the break
Q: Neighboring sums 4x4 game

Dmitry KamenetskyHere is an interesting game. You start with an empty 4x4 grid. At each turn you can choose an empty cell and place a value in it. The placed value is given by the following rules: If the chosen cell has no neighboring (horizontal or vertical) values then the placed value is 1. Otherwise the plac...

@Bubbler but it's good bitter :-)
Anyone who can just drink straight hot cocoa with baking cocoa and no sugar is a psychopath
who can make an "old saw" clue
you're not ever living that down
4:36 AM
@Sciborg hmm
@bobble sigh
I do love that this chatroom is such a positive and wholesome place that our most intense, controversial hot takes are "how do you take your hot chocolate."
"hot" takes from the person who takes their lukewarm
well that's better than burning hot
heathen. you will burn in a steaming cup of hot cocoa
docs.google.com/document/d/… <-- anyone want to look over latest draft of MathJax PSA?
gtg, sorry, bobble
4:48 AM
see you!
See you msh :)
Just stopped in to contribute to the hot cocoa debate.
I will probably head off to bed soon, it's almost midnight here.
The addition about variability between different screen readers is good, i actually quickly tested ChromeVox and even that one - which is supposed to natively support MathJax - didn't quite do it right
There's a big mixed bag of "supports it kinda," "supports it but only with an extension," and "doesn't support it at all"
Possibly you can also mention that unnecessary MathJax font might cause problems for people with dyslexia - I can't personally verify that, but that was a very common topic as well on forums
if you can get some links that would be good
I will find some sources for that, hang on
The main point of your post stands either way, though - using it where it's not necessary is just generally excessive and causes accessibility issues.
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5977080 This paper is a bit of an academic slogfest, but has source-able information about how changes from serif to sans serif fonts and fonts with ornaments (like MathJax fonts) can cause dyslexic readers to struggle.
It's not the math itself, it's changing randomly from MathJax to regular font and back
5:12 AM
i'd say for more complicated expressions, mathjax makes sense: things like fractions with square roots or exponents in them, or complicated exponents. anything that needs to be displayed 2-dimensionally for more clarity. (yes, technically you can flatten the quadratic formula into "x=(-b±βˆš(b²-4ac))/(2a)", but it makes the structure much harder to parse)
but there is absolutely no point using it for numbers and operations like +-× alone, without any variables or exponents -- that's the biggest issue i've seen
Using it for complex expressions where it helps in readability is totally fine, nothing wrong with that at all - our issue is more when people edit in MathJax for individual numbers and put it in just for a fancy font.
oh absolutely
i agree 100% -- i just wanted to say that i might change the wording slightly in the PSA to focus on cases like that
That's completely fair - wording could emphasize that more
also agree
@Deusovi if you have a google account I could add it as an editor
5:21 AM
just requested edit access
where do I look to approve your access?
...no idea.
ah, there it is
you should have access now
feel free to edit away
5:38 AM
@bobble made a few edits, and left some other comments
5 hours later…
10:22 AM
@Sciborg I don't add sugar, but that's because Israeli hot chocolate powder has a ridiculous amount of sugar added already. I will sometimes add coffee, though. And / or vanilla soy milk.
1 hour later…
11:25 AM
If accessibility weren't an issue then I would advocate for using MathJax a lot in places where it's needed at all. E.g., if you have a formula with numbers and variables in it that needs MathJax-ing, then in purely aesthetic terms you should also MathJax individual instances of the variables and relevant numbers in the rest of your text.
Obviously (1) none of that applies if you don't have mathematics that requires MathJax in the first place -- if all you're doing is saying "if 4x+3y=7 and 2x+3y=5 then what are x and y?" you can write that OK without MathJax and probably should. (Though the equations will look better with MathJax, and then the argument above would say that aesthetically you should MathJax the isolated x and y too.)
And (2) accessibility is generally more important than aesthetics for obvious reasons.
But here's a question. Suppose you are writing something that does contain some mathematics complicated enough that you need MathJax for it. Someone who's using a screen reader that can't cope with MathJax is then going to be missing something essential. So maaaybe -- it depends on what they can and do do about that situation -- maybe once you've got any nontrivial MathJax there's not much accessibility argument against adding more.
If the situation is that someone with a non-MathJax-savvy screen reader who encounters a lump of MathJax can then launch some other bit of software that can interpret it for them, but that doing so for three bits of MathJax is 3x as much work as doing it for one, then accessibility means not only avoiding MathJax when you can but also minimizing how often you use it.
Likewise if the situation is that their screen reader will say what the MathJax says but in some form that's unpleasant or difficult to make sense of: you're paying a price every time it happens.
On the other hand, if the screen reader just gives up entirely and there's no realistic alternative, then something to which something that needs MathJax is essential is just inaccessible and won't be made any more or less so by MathJaxing individual variables and the like.
Or if what happens is that the screen-reader user calls someone else over and says "hey, could you read this out for me?". Once they're doing it at all, there's probably little extra cost to having them do it for the whole thing. (Depends on the details of the thing, of course.)
(There are other costs to using MathJax that don't have much to do with accessibility, or at least with accessibility-for-people-with-impairments. For instance, if your network connection is slow then MathJax will cause a bit of pain.)
Anyway, @bobble your PSA is pretty good. I have a few suggestions. 1. Show both the input and the output for at least some of the cases where you're comparing MathJax with non-MathJax, so people can see how to do it. 2. In many cases the non-MathJax way is "just use the special characters that are part of the Unicode repertoire" and it might be worth giving, or linking to, some advice on how to enter those characters. 3. Have you verified that all those things come out OK [... continues]
... in common screen readers? I'd be a little concerned about whether subscripts and superscripts come out right, and slightly concerned about whether some less-common characters might turn into something like "Unicode character 20F3". (I have not checked what Unicode character 20F3 actually is.)
4. As you can see above, I'm not very sure how strong a case there is for minimizing MathJax in a post that has to use it anyway, as opposed to avoiding MathJax completely if you can, but it may be worth saying a few words about that issue.
5. It feels a bit odd to go from "... a wonky extension which doesn't work with more complicated math" straight to "so don't use $1$ where 1 will do", since that's pretty much the least complicated thing you can do in MathJax. It feels to me like almost all the advice in the PSA doesn't help in the case where someone has a screen reader with a wonky extension that's OK with simple things but falls over with more complicated ones -- because the more complicated cases are [... continues]
... exactly the cases where there isn't really any alternative to MathJax in the first place. So the advice "when you can write something adequately without MathJax, do so" isn't going to make anyone turn complicated formulae into plain text, because plain text isn't an adequate representation for complicated formulae, which is why we have mathematical notation in the first place.
I guess pretty much any formula can be turned into prose if you really have to, but the result is going to be super-unpleasant to read for everyone.
12:38 PM
Q: common between the words

GhassanSweden Ashton Kutcher salmon dogs Emma stone Germany elk Chicago Miami Margot Robbie heart transplant countryside

1:02 PM
Q: Neighboring sums 5x5 game

Dmitry KamenetskyYou start with an empty 5x5 grid. At each turn you choose an empty cell and place a value in it. The placed value is given by the following rules: If the chosen cell has no neighboring (horizontal or vertical) values then the placed value is 1. Otherwise the placed value is the sum of all neighb...

1 hour later…
2:24 PM
Q: Can someone help me on this puzzle?

LostsoulasideA person sent a email to friends, asking them to forward the email to more friends. The number of people who receive the email increases by a factor of 4 every week. The person initially sent the email to 84 friends. How many people receive the email in the 10th week after the person initially se...

2:48 PM
Q: A 9x9 Numbers / Equations Grid

DrDYou may have seen a simple grids of numbers with vertical and horizontal equations connecting them. Following is a different type (not sure what to call it). An example is: In this grid there are nine numbers which FULLY satisfy the given equations horizontally, vertically AND diagonally. Thus 8...

Q: We use this everyday without noticing, but we hate it when we feel it

ention everyoneHere is a word with an uncertain number of letters (hint: it's not 4 letters): #### We use #### everyday. We use #### when we write, play video games, exercise, eat, heck, I'm using #### as I'm typing! #### is something that we all can give to others, yet it is not good to do so. We hate to feel...

3:07 PM
This is dumb
We have another fire near the same area
It's a bit more west and a bit further from us, so I don't think we'll be evacuating but still
SEI, or IRL?
What's SEI?
Stack Exchange Incorporated
ugh, doubting my PSA now that I've slept on it
what don't you like about it?
3:20 PM
everything you pointed out, and then Rand in the Lit chatroom saying MathJax should be used for all math
I suspect Rand just wasn't thinking about the accessibility issues.
the real solution would be to make MathJax compatible with screen readers
That would be a great solution. Not so easy for us here to do, though.
Is it open-source? :P
do you want edit access too Gareth? you could make any changes you like
3:41 PM
@GarethMcCaughan after talking with bobble about it (in the document last night, while i was helping edit it), i was planning to make a followup answer with some copy-paste-able characters
as for the things you brought up about complexity, i agree that "$1$ vs 1" is the least complicated case, but it's the main 'target' of the post, so to speak -- i've noticed a fair bit of that kind of thing in the past
(and i'd recommend using the mathematical variable characters if you just need stylized single letters to distinguish, say, "a" from "π‘Ž" : π‘Žπ‘π‘π‘‘π‘’π‘“π‘”β„Žπ‘–π‘—π‘˜π‘™π‘šπ‘›π‘œπ‘π‘žπ‘Ÿπ‘ π‘‘π‘’π‘£π‘€π‘₯𝑦𝑧. as far as i know, screen readers do work fine with these)
I thought screenreaders hated those too?
they hate those when used as italics for full words
Ooh, interesting
so you absolutely should not use those characters for fancy formatting
but if you're using the characters for their actual purpose -- as variable names, distinct from plain text -- then that's exactly what you want.
4:10 PM
@Deusovi Hey! My teacher is going over the same stuff we did for angle addition Tueday and today!
Except her diagram is waaaay more complicated
oh neat
Yeah, that's really messy and confusing
ahh yeah - that's actually relatively similar, they just draw more lines around the border to make that final addition/subtraction step more clear
It is similar, but the extra lines are a bit more confusing
makes sense - i think the extra lines help some people?
4:13 PM
AHAHAHAHAHA we're also going over the e^i formula!
Dang Deus, prepping me ahead of time :)
Or wait
Not yet
4:33 PM
And now we get to the e^-ix :)
that's like e^ix, except in the other direction
Woah, no way
4:46 PM
@Deusovi Yup, I appreciate that the main target is the use of MathJax for trivial things rather than substantial formulae. It's for that reason that I wonder whether the case of screen-readers that can read easy formulae but can't read hard ones is relevant.
5:00 PM
that's a good point - it might be cleaner if that was edited out
5:14 PM
Q: Find two numbers within a document

RIOGiven the below PDF document containing some text and an image, the goal is to extract two integers out of this document that are between 6200 and 7200. I already tried the following but none of the results were between 6200 and 7200: calculate the resolution of the picture count all the dots ("."...

2 hours later…
7:24 PM
school seems to have canceled classes due to internet & electricity troubles, so we have to do all our work asynchronously
> Your assignment today is to [do this]. I was planning to do this in class today, using our breakout rooms, but the widespread loss of electricity forced a change in plans. Now you'll need to complete the assignment on your own (unless you can connect with classmates).
that's how I'm interpreting this
a good interpretation
8:11 PM
advent of code anyone?
@Voldemort'sWrath never done it
also hiiiiiii voldyyyyy
8:36 PM
also hi matttt
i haven't either but i found it a few days ago and started doing it
hm indeed
Interesting. Did the first day in excel and grunt work. Going to have to write code for the second.
9:28 PM
apparently "abode" and "adobe" are anagrams
I see a potential clue in the making but couldn't finalize anything :(
"An adobe abode" :p
that's the idea
How are you :D
Home made from churned adobe. (5) <-- clue I made off that
and I'm pretty good! no tic attacks so far today
9:30 PM
That's good :D
I saw jafe's final chain puzzle, that was amazingly well done.
i helped a little bit
Hey matt!
poofy/screeny/SHIELD/chocolate updates?
We're watching 9+10 of SHIELD tomorrow-ish :)
9:33 PM
It seems oAlt's C4 is still standing, too.
have you figured out how we should deal with msh210's "hot chocolate" tastes?
"hot chocolate" is a strong word for msh210's version
Mith's is fine though, I will accept Mith's.
Vanilla soy milk and hot chocolate actually sounds really yummy.
heck, vanilla soy milk by itself is pretty good
(i will fight you on that) :p
Tastes way better than regular milk
9:37 PM
Poofy is still sitting under my tree, I am working on finding her a little Santa hat
or you could get her a big santa hat and have it cover her
but then she couldn't see anything
It's okay, bobblies navigate by echolocation and/or smelling puzzling juices
9:40 PM
i imagine that would be quite annoying for her
@Sciborg what does puzzling juice taste like though?
Hang on, let me ask Poofy
that's weird, she says it tastes like ichor and the blood of her enemies?
you don't want to make the bobblies your enemy
it's okay, she'll cheer up once i find her the Santa hat.
let's hope so
9:42 PM
Santa hats are scientifically proven to reduce murderous urges in bobblecrowns.
also, some of the bobblies have left your apartment because it was too cold. there are now under a thousand in the walls, floor, and ceiling.
by how much?
under a thousand???
oh no
fortunately i managed to get my hands on an icer
starts icing the bobblies
no don't kill them! they are too adorable to be killed!
9:44 PM
that thing's going to run out of power
@Sciborg what kind of study was run to find this out?
It was in the Academic Journal of Things I Just Made Up.
Run by Dr. I. M. Aginary
made any more progress on bonkers tetro-sweeper?
I got caught up in Codenames yesterday, but I can work on it today :P
Struggling a bit but it's going well
9:57 PM
can I see current progress?
I'm on phone at the moment but when I get back to computer, i'll post
why are some of the "I"s capitalized and some not?
Turned off auto-capitalize on my phone, sorry
i shame you
Truly, I am ashamed
My washer decided to go crazy in the middle of a spin cycle so I'm trying to figure out what's wrong at the moment
10:05 PM
that may be the baby bobblies' faults - they like using it as a water play area
Dangit bobblies
I'm praying it was just an unbalanced load or something because I can't afford to fix it :p
wooooah dizzy spell
oh no
I'm sitting down and everything seems to be moving back and forth
in non-spinning news, I've constructed my sashigane (while I was supposed to be doing physics homework)
I think I've joined the land of procrastinators
Yay! Sashiganes look fun
10:16 PM
actually, wait, how am I supposed to do physics homework if my screen is blurring in front of me?
That would definitely be a not-good way to do homework
I'm going to read the problem during one of the less-dizzy moments and type while dizzy.
My morning medication gives me occasional nausea/dizzy spells, they're really annoying
mom got me a large cup of water, she says it helps with her dizzy spells
Water and food in combination helps me
There was one time it hit me right as I was getting out of bed, and I literally stood up and then fell right back into bed :p
10:21 PM
health issues! how fun!
Very fun!
get yours today!
@bobble if you can't appreciate the finer things in life, you can stick with your cup of hot sugar
hot sugar is delicious
Q: Unique 5/6-letter Jumble words

John K.The Jumble word puzzle in the paper each day has a couple of 5-letter "jumbles" and a couple of 6-letter jumbles for you to unscramble to form ordinary (English) words. My question is: how many 5-letter and 6-letter words (not including subentries like plurals or past tense verbs) have one unique...

10:32 PM
@bobble Back at computer and yeah, I need a nudge on the crazy tetro-sweeper. can you give me a hint about the first deduction?
do you have any tetros down yet?
No :(
okay, first tetro: look in the bottom-right corner
I can give a more specific hint if needed
I know the 1-2 placement gives me something, but i'm not sure what yet
Do you want some time to concentrate on that area by yourself, or should I list out what you need to consider when making the deduction?
10:35 PM
well, i know that obviously there are only 4 squares available around the 2-block, and I need to fill 2 of them while only filling 1 block of the 1-block. but beyond that i'm not sure
well, hang on. hmm
well, let's see if you can say any squares can't be used
wait, hang on, i got it
have you placed a tetro?
no, wait, no
i screwed up
never mind
the ? block blocks me off
um... hm
by the way, we could take this to the grid-deduction solving chatroom if you want
10:38 PM
wait there, i can place the L-block there right?
hang on, i don't want to spam this chat, i'll hop into grid chat
11:09 PM
@bobble oh noooo
oops late 24 hr c4 hint
Hint 1 Hint 2 CCCC hint 3: Contrary to msh210's suggestion, "live, perhaps" is not the definition.
I think I might give purely letter reveal hints after this third one
11:33 PM
(might request to de-star the other hints (I gave the links to those in the current one) so that the starboard won't be cluttered with my c4 stuff. Thanks :D)

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