where as if they are a typical, decent human being, you can work it out and make sure everyone's interests are protected without any major issues

I guess the model really only bothers me when it turns abusive

which in this case it did

Now the more common model among established wedding photogs is to charge a higher shooting fee and include a specified print/digital image package. But even then there is still more to be made if you can get Aunt Harriet to visit your web site and order prints of her side of the family... And many of those well established wedding photogs I know include a clause in the contract that basically forbids allowing anyone else to shoot with pro gear.

I still don't see how, from their standpoint, you can say they were abusive. They were hired to shoot a wedding. If, for whatever reason, valid or not, they perceived that you were hindering them from doing their best work and getting paid for it then in their mind it is in the best interest of both themselves and their client for them to ask you to stop interfering.

And honestly, using a Gary Fong or whatever flash modifier you had on your speedlight when you weren't the hired photog was probably a little presumptuous.

@MichaelClark yeah, that's where I start getting an issue again. One of my moral imperatives is that the wedding is about the bride and groom and belongs to the bride and groom. My product should stand alone, by itself and not impede on that. I agree with the idea that the primary photographer should be able to restrict things that will interfere with the quality of their work, but not that they should be able to "own the event" as it were

@MichaelClark it's specifically because of how they approached me

it was with a bullshit reason that didn't have any merit to it and they completely ignored and blew off my objection that the reason was bullshit

that's the part that I found abusive, though that also isn't really related to the question

coming to the conclusion of "they simply don't want me shooting for x, y or z honest reason" would be an ok outcome in my opinion

@MichaelClark ok, that part I'm interested in hearing more about. Honestly never had anyone have that view before. Why would proper technique for flash photos in a dark environment be presumptuous?

Maybe because your flash goes off while their shutter is open and ruins a key shot?

I turned my flash off during key shots

and wouldn't, at that point, it be more just the use of a flash in general, rather than use of a modifier?

granted, I'll absolutely yield the fact about if I was using a flash during key shots it would be seen negatively

btw, thanks a ton for the discussion, this overall is giving me a lot to think about in terms of how to best deal with someone like this in the future. I think what I'd probably do instead is just ask them flat out if there reasoning is actually something else and then just explain that is all they had to say

But again, at the reception they don't have time to have that conversation about when you will and when you won't use your flash. And even if they did, I'm sure they've encountered situations in the past when someone promised one thing and then did another.

well, one of the other things I usually mention in my proactive conversations is to tell them just to look at me and nod if they need me to stop and I literally am always watching them. I don't shoot if I can't see every working pro in the room, video or still

the camera doesn't even come up from my side

and if the camera is even on my person, I do my best to keep it out of their field of view by either moving or placing it down out of the way

The compacts and cell phones with a GN13 flash aren't going to have the same potential impact on their work as a GN197 EX600RT!

yeah, I wasn't trying to compare those, just pointing out that it isn't the modifier that matters, but the use of a high power flash

Again, if they are seasoned at all then they have had situations in the past when someone said they would stay out of the way and then didn't.

@MichaelClark yeah, I just don't see the occasional bad past experience as a valid reason to not be honest with someone who is likely completely honest

especially when they actually do work in the field. I mean, they aren't the only one who has had to deal with problem shooters

The modifier does make you more conspicuous. Have you not had situations where you have a group of folks posed and just as you press the shutter one or more of them looks over at Uncle Bob who is saying "Say cheese, EVERYBODY!"

fair point

also more distracting when it gets in a shot

though a full size dslr on it's own is pretty distracting by itself too

interestingly, that's also the other things I stay the hell away from

if they are doing portraits I'm not in the vicinity

anything they are organizing is solely their domain in my book

if they are taking artistic control of positioning people and such

I've actually even had people ask me to take a photo of it, and I flat out refuse, even with other people's consumer cameras

Just personal opinion, but i would have to say that anything like a Gary Fong or a Rouge Flashbender is more conspicuous than even a white 70-200 f/2.8. People aren't used to seeing them. At. All.

@MichaelClark yeah, I get it now that you explained it

since I put so much emphasis on being invisible, I never really thought about it, but you are right about how it would look or draw attention if I did anything that could compromise a shot

and actually, I use lumaquest diffusers, so they are even more obnoxiously apparent

though I also remove them from my camera whenever possible as well to lower profile

I won't strip it down if I'm primary, but if I'm not, I keep things the lowest possible profile just in case the occasional mistake should happen, though very rare

at the time when she got me, I had it equipped because they weren't at the reception yet and I was getting a few photos of the cocktail hour since they weren't there

I will slightly more aggressively pursue any content I notice they are missing

but only if they are missing it entirely

if I just don't think they are covering it well I generally give benefit of the doubt and shoot one or two good images for backup and personal use

I really do try to make sure that I am as mindful as humanly possible while trying to protect everyone's interests

LOL

hahaha

yikes

I'm just trying to picture them trying to take a portrait ;)

hey Abdul, welcome

hi, whats on you mind? I hope I wasn't too abrupt with my answer.

no, it was great

I would say I'm more in line with the philosophy of the college girl in your example. I'm actually a fairly experienced pro, but I also totally respect that I'm not the paid shooter and I'm not working. I'm just there to be a guest and get a few shots for personal use and, that in the worst case scenario, I can cover should the paid photographer end up being really bad. In that kind of a situation, what kind of things do you think would put you most at ease that I'm not trying to take your...

business or cause you issues

and what kinds of things could I do to avoid being a distraction to you when I do take shots and assure you that I'm mindful of where you are and wouldn't be in your way

or is it really simply that having someone with a lot of experience would be a distraction for you

even if you knew I was doing everything I could to make sure I didn't interfere

I've always been a pretty confident shooter because I did wedding video before photography, so I already knew the industry really well, so I don't have personal experience to work off in this particular case

I generally always take note of anyone using a DSLR when I am at a wedding. I don't mind so much at the stage where they take the vows, as generally I will always have the best spot and also may already have some prearranged flashlights prearranged or have an assistant holding them for me, so no issues there.

"I generally always take note of anyone using a DSLR when I am at a wedding" as do I :)

if I'm not the official photog, I actually won't raise my camera from my side unless I know where every official photog is and which direction their lenses are facing

where I have issues is when say the bride is walking down the isle, or is about to throw the bouquet or is about to be announced in to the dining area, and I see someone with Canon 7D/6D/5D or even a 1DS or something similar from nikon with say 70-200mm f2.8, that causes me concerns.

if I see someone with a Rebel or Nikon 5300 with a kit lens, I don't have an issue

@AbdulNQuraishi right, and you said it is specifically that you are worried that they will spend more time on the shot or are you also worried they will get in your way? if both, which worries you more?

I also take note of the photographers postures, positioning and general use of the camera

or is it something else

the time they spend worries me more, as that is the one thing that i don't have, I either take one great shot, or take lots of good shots! this means that the other shooter has one very good shot

specially if s/he demonstrates that they have the knowhow

to give you more on my specific case, I shoot a 5d with f/2.8 L zooms and a 600EX-RT, only on camera when needed and only turned on outside of key shots. and I move like a shooter with good stable positions but I also move like a pro trying to be a guest, so I'm in and out and stay out of lines of sight

would me coming up to you before hand and explaining that I don't plan on sharing more than maybe one or two photos before you have a chance to do your post photo sales be a comfort to you

what I normally do to avoid stepping on toes is to share maybe one or two photos on my blog, but otherwise, I sit on them for a couple weeks, which is also partly a practical thing, I'm busy and don't have time to immediately go through them or do touch up

but also a courtesy

If I saw that you were spending more that 50% of your time with that level of kit, i would go over to wedding organiser.

what do you mean by 50% of my time, like if I had it up more than 50% of the time?

if I saw that you took the occasional shot and then sat down, i could live with that

in general, I pop it up for shots here and there. To give you an idea, in a 7 hour wedding, I shoot about 450 to 500 photos normally as a guest, of which about 100 to 125 of which are my family rather than anything you'd be interested in and the remainder are a spread, but covering only maybe 10% to 15% of my time

sometimes, I see guests with good kit, forget that they are there as a guest, and overtime my eye catches them, they are busy with their camera

yeah, and that's always doing themselves a diservice too

as a tip, when you do see that, it's often effective to remind them they are a guest and that the bride and groom would love to see them out from behind the camera in photos too

10-15% would never be an issue with me

I am generally one of those very non-confrontational guys, which is not god, as it just builds and builds and then it all explodes, and all wrong!

the reason I personally do it is that I care a lot about photography and wedding photography in general. I'm very picky about it and don't trust many photographers to do it to my standards, so I like to have a few safety images so I can relax, but I also want them to be just that, safety images if the official images can't sell themselves without my interference. It lets me relax and lets me have some personal images for my own memories that I know I'll love

but as someone that works the space myself, I do my absolute best to try to keep the working guy's life easy

@AbdulNQuraishi yeah, I know what you mean

that's where you just have to keep it positive and polite. Bring it up as concern for them and not many people will generally respond negatively, though it does take some practice to get good at

if you came over to me and said what you have just mentioned to me in that exact manner, I would be very understanding and would not feel threatened, because at the end of the day, that is exactly what it is

I do know of horror stories where being nice didn't work, but I've yet to experience one personally on the pro side, only this most recent occurrence on the guest side

I can see that it has unsettled you

yeah, quite a bit, mostly because they chose to attack me by saying that I was getting in their shots when that is what my entire professional reputation is built around

I'm known for being invisible as a pro shooter

i personally believe the photographer did not understand your reasons and thats why she reacted that way

yeah, that was kind of what I was thinking too, particularly given that the second shooter was spot checking a lot and doing other things that indicated she was fairly new

my guess, she didn't try to take a shot because I happened to be standing there at the time and thus I didn't see her trying for a shot I would have been blocking

that could also be an issue, having a new assistant

cause I was literally watching her the entire time she was anywhere near me

atleast when ever I stood up for a photo

did the photographer come up to you and tell you to stop

not immediately, she just backed off to the upper floor for wide shots and then she told the primary shooter

the primary approached me at the reception when they first got there before things got started

and the thing that shook me was that she completely ignored my objection that I had been watching her assistant the entire time

what did she say?

I forget exactly, but she kept insisting that I shoot from back out of the way despite the fact I was already telling her that I would stay out of her way, the same as I always do

and yet it wasn't good enough for her and she kept driving. Note, this is probably the 12th or so wedding I've attended and done the exact same thing and never once had any photographer have anything other than good things to say.

she clearly felt threatened. I would put it down to pressure, having a new assistant probably didn't help either.

I'd never encountered something like this before and was quite stunned and upset about it, been trying to get my head back right since, especially once I got home and saw that most of the photographers work looks very amateurish and knowing I had backed off more than I needed to, just to avoid causing drama (I'm very big on the wedding coming before images, even when working professionally)

but then I was worried that the loss of quality backups might hurt my sister in law

I felt a bit better after I had a chance to look at my images and saw I have at least 20 or 30 good images though

yeah, at this point I think I've mostly managed to move on, but I'd rather avoid the problem in the future. I do know I'm going to be more proactive about researching photographers at weddings I attend and trying to contact them well in advance as well from now on

I'd never bothered to do so before as it had never been a problem

it seems like that in this particular case, besides the pressure, she felt threatened as she was quite possibly not as good and quite possible judged that you seemed like someone who may actually upstage her.

cause I always seek them out, touch base quickly at the first possible time that won't interfere with their work and let them know who I am, what I'm doing and how they can easily communicate with me to back off if it is causing them a problem I can't see

@AbdulNQuraishi yeah, if it wasn't just a misunderstanding that's entirely possible, and that's kind of what my question is really trying to ask. What kinds of things could I say, once she is combative, to try to calm her down, get her honest about her concerns and get us on the same page

I've never had a problem before so I assume my behavior is generally seen as reasonable, so clearly it is a miscommunication of some type that needs to be addressed

but it's hard to quickly do that once someone has become agitated

having had this limited chat with you, you seem very level headed with an extremely calm demeanour. I truly believe that this may have just been an isolated incident and it has happened not because of something you have done, but you have become the punchbag for something that quite possibly relates to her own insecurities.

yeah, you have no idea how hard it was to stay level headed and professional with her, but I somehow held it together

I do still plan on avoiding the issue in the future by prior communication, but I thought it was a potentially common enough occurance that a question about it merited trying to answer. I think I may personally add an answer suggesting to talk before hand. It isn't really a direct answer either, but so far we don't have any direct answers and the question would only be helpful if someone read it before a situation anyway

thanks a ton for taking the time to talk it through with me though

its a good but a very tough question to answer. best wishes abdul

As the comments (that were deleted before the ink was dry) and chat developed I have edited in additional material to my answer and have included a paragraph that discusses communication between the hosts, the paid photog, and the guest who is also a photog.

@MichaelClark yeah, I saw that, thanks for the updates

@AJHenderson What kit were you shooting this wedding with?

@dpollitt my main camera. The 5D Mark iii is my only camera, so the 5d mark iii with the f/2.8 zooms and when needed, the 600ex-rt

same kit I've used at every other wedding I've been a guest at. I just stylistically only shoot as a guest, I'm not up all the time, just grabbing shots here and there

when I'm in guest mode, I'm a guest first and a photographer a distance second, I just happen to have a good camera and know how to take good photos

oh yeah, and unlike most guests, I make absolutely sure I know where every working lens (and as many guest lenses as I can) are pointed before I pick my camera up

I have an xti for super emergency backup

450-500 frames is a little more than "...just grabbing shots here and there..."

@MichaelClark yes and no, some of those frames are bursts or multiple shots covering things I shot under non-ideal conditions to avoid interfering

I have about 35 shots of them going up and down the isle because I'm shooting between heads and having focus problems because I'm shooting from my seat

or shots of a kiss where I'm shooting without a flash in low light and know that blur from their movement is going to ruin 6 out of 7 of the shots

so I compensate in those situations where I know it will be trouble by holding down the button

it's not ideal, but it's the best I can do without risking interference

and sure, the 125 of things that they wouldn't be interested in is more aggressive, but that's also not in direct competition

so you figure in actuallity I only tried for about 60 to 70 unique images if that. I'd estimate I have probably 35 to 40 photos I'd consider worthwhile out of that set

that aren't of things that the photographer simply wouldn't have shot

or was making no attempt to shoot

on a wedding with better conditions and a photographer that is on top of things, I shoot generally under 300 images

sometimes as few as 150 or so

@JamesRyan I'd really love to know more about what you think is unreasonable, but comments is not the place for that

→ 4 messages moved to Discussion between AJ Henderson and JamesRyan

@AJHenderson regarding your comment to my answer, you might be overlooking the signal sent by shooting with a DSLR as opposed to a smaller camera. The official shooter might have felt more "threatened" by it. Plus, mirorless cameras and even some point and shoots are more than capable in low light these days.

@guillaume31 true, but no where near what my 5d m iii does

but you are quite possibly right about the gearing, particularly since they were shooting D600s

not that that should matter, but practically, it does have an impact on people

especially if they aren't a confident shooter, as I found out from talking with abdul in here yesterday

I also don't have a mirrorless or smaller camera, I just have my smartphone

which does not do well in low light

and when I have something of the quality of a 5D Mark iii with top end L optics, I really don't see a good reason to spend more money on lower end gear

it is an added concern I have to make sure I address with them though

OK, quite the Canon / Nikon shootout then heh ;)

I get what you mean, you shot with what you were comfortable with and were not going to buy a mirrorless just for the occasion

@guillaume31 as an aside, I do normally try to talk to the photographer as soon as possible, which is normally the reception since they are busy before that, but have some down time after portraits and before entance

in this case, they got to me before I could head them off

and were already upset. It's a situation I'd not encountered before

and I wasn't really sure how to get it moved in a productive direction quickly without a risk of more drama, so I just backed off, but later ended up worried I made the wrong call

so that's what prompted the question in the first place, cause I was literally a nervous wreck for like 30 hours straight

until I had a chance to review my photos

@guillaume31 maybe for them, personally, I like Nikon as well, the D800 just wasn't as natural in my hands

I'm more used to canon's control layout so it was more natural for me to use and the cameras are so similar in terms of trade offs that it was really an either/or choice

Yeah, things like this will happen. You made the right decision though I can imagine it ruined some of your time there. Wedding going happily and smoothly is the first priority, if a choice has to be made (and thankfully it doesn't have to most of the time) it comes before getting top images IMO.

@guillaume31 yeah, absolutely, but that's why I brought up the question. If anyone has any ideas I could have used to avoid having 30 hours of so much stress I couldn't work, I'm all for it

I also didn't realize how much photography matters to me before that. It was actually a little disturbing how sick and unsettled the situation made me

primarily due to sickening concern that there wouldn't be good photos that my sister in law would like thanks to my making a wrong choice even if it was the best I could at the time

I'd have taken that as a very personal failure because I'm also very big on the idea that if I could have done something and didn't, it is my fault

though that's beaten by the belief of "don't interfere with the wedding"

but it put me in a very hard to resolve situation where those two ideals were put at each other's throats

I was able to get my head back in enough to be able to at least enjoy the later part of the reception, but only because I hadn't seen their portfolio, so it was kind of sickly feeling after the exchange, then got better, then got really sickly when I got home until I had a chance to look at my shots the next day

and was only able to calm down after I knew that my backing off more than I had to (if the photographer hadn't been an issue) didn't turn out to prevent me getting some good shots

if it had, I might still have been a nervous wreck

lol

their portfolio was that bad ?

it wasn't good. It was mostly f/8+ shots at 50mm from the looks of it. She apparently had a journalism background and to her credit, she was fairly good at the journalistic side of things, though a bit non-present for my tastes (doing things like reviewing stuff with the B shooter while events were happening, which resulted in some nice shots being missed).

overall her images were still what I'd consider professional, but very bland

most of it shot at f/8 or further, mediocre color correction (very dull images, but not in the more recent artistic trends, more just not well done), in some cases oversaturated to the point of distracting. Lots of disinterested angles. Overall nothing horrible, but I've also seen good amateurs with similar portfolios

nothing that matched up with the kinds of shots they liked from the engagement shoot I did with them

they acttually would have had me cover the wedding, but they wanted me to be a guest

and honestly, I would have refused unless they couldn't have afforded someone anyway

I want to be a guest first there, not a photographer

but I'm also a professional and a passionate artist. One can not simply "turn off" caring about quality of something that matters to them

especially when it comes to their loved ones

honestly, I was probably over-reacting a bit to the portfolio, because to the average person, the photos would probably be fine

but I wasn't exactly in the most rational frame of mind at the time either

so I forgot to shift out of artist mindset and in to client mindset when looking at the portfolio

Clients tastes are sometimes surprinsingly different than what you as a photographer would define as good photos ;)

That's why you perhaps shouldn't have felt that personally responsible / involved.. but yeah it's easier said than done

@guillaume31 yeah, that's easier when I haven't worked with them before though

in this case, I had

I know the kinds of photos my sister in law and her husband prefer. What I forgot to do was consider that they would still find the portfolio photos fine, even if they generally prefer a more artistic styling.

that was an error on my part that caused me some undue stress though, and it is another thing I've marked on my list of things to be sure to remember

though I sincerely hope that being more proactive before hand will simply remove a similar situation from ever occuring again

I suspect it will since I've not had a problem in the dozen or so weddings I've attended before this and done exactly the same thing. In a few cases, I even ended up being asked for networking info afterwards

though sadly they are often not in locations that I cover

I was really, truly caught off guard this time

@AJHenderson So what you are saying is that you, as a professional who does weddings, need to shoot 500 frames to get 35-40 keepers?

@MichaelClark when I'm shooting as a guest, without using ideal conditions, shooting between people to stay out of the way, yes

lots of additional problems occur under those conditions

I'm not using focus asssit lamps, and trying to shoot moving people in dim environment with quick shots, with slowish shutter, without a monopod

it's not exactly ideal circumstances

Don't you still have a viewfinder to look through, though?

yes, but that doesn't account for my movement or people's movement during exposures.

and focus on a moving target is still better with autofocus than I can do manual when it does hit right

which it does eventually get around to doing

generally, about 1/4 are out of focus, 1/2 have too much subject movement 1/10 have too much me movement or I misjudged my adjustment and another 1/5 are just bad facial expressions from unpredictable stuff like blinks or awkward faces

when I'm doing professional coverage, it's more like a 1/5 hit rate for the ones I really like

I'm sure I could probably trim that down if I wanted to, but I haven't seen a need to and it's less stressful to have more than you need than not enough, so I try some shots that end up not working out because they were long shots

my hit rates on things like formals is way, way higher

the biggest thing that pulls it down for commercial work is either group shots (eye blinks become a big problem with big groups) or candids (hard to catch everyone with ideal mouth positions that don't look funny)

@AJHenderson Sure it does. It's called timing. Like when you release the shutter at the instant the guitarist's hand stops going up and before it starts going back down.

@MichaelClark people's movement isn't that predictable. You don't know when they will move their head and when you're having to shoot around 1/60, it's a pretty long time

when you have multiple people involved

Hence, the viewfinder. The shutter lag of your 5D3 is far shorter than the interval between 6fps (which is really about 4 fps in the real world in low light).

normally I'm not truly holding down the button There are some times like kisses where I can't anticipate the exact moment they'll break the kis

and 1/4 second is still faster than reaction time for something that would be a pure reaction shot

and as far as when I'm shooting as a guest, it is also partly being lazy

I'm more focused on what's happening than my technique

I still pay enough attention to makes sure I'm aware of my surroundings and that I'll get something, but my finer technique isn't focused on

I'm not sitting waiting for a moment, I'm watching my sister in law and my father in law have their dance

I can't believe you shot 500 images at a wedding as a guest, with a Canon 5D MkIII and a kit of f/2.8 zooms. I would be embarrassed to do such a thing personally.