if I have some photos, then it isn't a concern

further, even if they are the best photographer in the world, they aren't going to get the exact shots that I see or want. For me personally, my own photos are almost always going to be better, simply by virtue of being mine

and being the moments I wanted to capture

Remind me not to invite you to my wedding. Why don't you butt out and let them do their job without interference?

I didn't interfere in any way. I am a professional who knows what does and does not interfere with a reputation SPECIFICALLY built on not getting in the way. I know many here don't want to accept that, but I did nothing to interfere with the photographer.

The fact is I'm passionate about wedding photography. It matters a lot to me and it matters to me that my friends and family have good photos. I can't turn off seeing moments that the hired photographer has no shot of or is not getting well. This is a major source of stress that prevents me enjoying an event, so my options are to call them out (which makes conflict) or simply take a moment to capture it myself when I notice it as a guest and can do so without interfering.

You seem to only want confirmirmation that your view is correct when actually it is wholely unreasonable. The hosts have picked that photographer because they have seen their work and they trust them. Offer someone better, be there in a working capacity, or let them do their job. Photography is artistic, there are multiple ways to cover it, there will be plenty of moments that they get that you miss. Learn to turn off.

@JamesRyan - I think maybe I see where you were coming from now. I was not clear enough about what I would actually be working out with them. Do you still believe that it is unreasonable? If so, please do hop in chat. I would really, seriously, like your feedback, but that isn't exactly what this question is about and comments are not the place for discussion.

The thing is even if you are 'no threat' you are still publically saying "I don't think their work is good enough, I will do my own"

← 4 messages moved from Photography Chat

hmm, interesting, it doesn't use the time stamps of the actual comments

feature request time

not that it will ever happen

hey @JamesRyan thanks for stopping by. did my response on your answer make sense? I'm wondering if part of the confusion is just a miscommunication about what happened and what I was asking about

@jamesryan how about now. You should have been able to, but I tried adding you to the explicit write list

how is my taking the occasional personal photo any more saying I don't trust them than anyone pulling out a smartphone or point and shoot? To be clear, I had my camera up much less than a number of other guests who were glued to their iphones and p&s's

@JamesRyan replying here again, simply because I don't want to extend the comments further, but I do agree on the number of photos too. In general, I take less unique images as a guest than most guests. I know exactly what images I'm looking for and focus on getting those. I do end up with a higher image count at the end of the night than most guests, but that's because I often shoot in more limiting situations, so I'll shoot some pretty aggressive bursts to make sure I get a good shot

fully expecting the majority of the shots from the burst to be crap

for example, on the end of the dances, I turn my flash off to avoid interference during the hugs/kisses

so I shoot like 20 images of them

generally only one or two of those comes out sufficiently not blurry and if I'm very lucky, I catch one of the photographers flashes as actual good lighting

if I was covering a wedding of that length professionally, I'd have about 2300 to 2600 photos roughly covering many many distinct images. Instead, I shot about 500 photos covering about 35 distinct images of the couple and about 100 to 120 personal interest shots that have no meaning to the photographer

(which was actually about 25 to 40 end result images)

so yeah, my shutter count was above a normal guest, but my actual image count was in line or lower

@user2989297 I was using a higher end kit than they had, but that's also the same kit I use for any casual photos. The only time I shoot with my smartphone is if it is a total throw away image or I don't have the time to get to my 5D before the moment passes

and I have no other camera

well, I have an XTI, but that's really old at this point

and pretty beat up

not to mention more distracting to use

I guess at that point, it is basically a toss up between my ability to not focus on the photo taking (by using a camera that is natural and second nature to me) or trying to use something that will be difficult and frustrating vs the photographer feeling insecure for some reason. I still don't really see how simply having good gear says I don't trust the photographer if I'm shooting like a guest. It just says I'm someone who likes to take photos and wants my own memories

which is really the truth of the situation. It is also true that I don't trust the photographer, but not because I really don't trust them so much as because I'm paranoid about anything that can go wrong

I guess, maybe saying I don't trust the photographer isn't the right way to say it

I give the photographer as much benefit of the doubt as I can, but I am not comfortable not having a backup if they should fail

kind of the "trust but verify" mentality

I let them do their job and trust they will get something, but at the same time, I would feel like crap if I didn't have ANY good images and it turned out they didn't either

From my perspective, as a person getting Married, with a vendor in the family (Bride's Father) we made the decision to use someone else for our own reasons. If you showed up at the wedding with even a point-and-click camera we would just ask you to leave. They chose a different professional, you should not even bring a camera, if your that uptight about it. Let them enjoy their day. Let them have it their way.

@coteyr for what it's worth, if a family member asked me, I'd actually decline unless they had no ability to get anyone else

I really, really don't want to be a professional photographer at weddings of close friends or family

I want to be a guest

but I also can't relax if I don't take some photos unless I really know the photographer myself and even aside from that, I really prefer a few photos for myself that wouldn't be of interest to a professional. Are you planning an entirely offline wedding and asking no guests to take photos or would you just specifically restrict someone from taking photos simply because they know what they are doing?

@coteyr - the difference is that guests normally take their own photos

it's normal behavior. Most use the best equipment at their disposal.

most people that go to the wedding don't buy professional photos, they use whatever they took.

Also, comparing food to photography is a bit unfair too. Everything else you described isn't really artistic work and/or can't be done without added costs, so it doesn't make sense. But lets say I did have a backup cake in my car and didn't take it out unless the bride got the the reception hall and absolutely hated the way the cake came out

sure it isn't practical to make a backup cake on that possibility since it would be a waste if it wasn't used, but guests take photos

so I get some good ones and if (and only if) the bride or groom complains about the official photos, then I offer what I have

(or more often, they ask me if I have anything when it has ended up saving their skins)

it is slowly improving with better quality of reviews and such, but portfolios can be very misleading and it's far more common (and far more permanent) for people to be unhappy with the photos than a venue or food

if the food is bad, you'll remember that the DJ was good and forget about the food. If your photos are an eyesore, you have to look at them for the rest of your life

and you can't get a redo

now, that said, if my friends said that they really didn't want me to shoot any, I'd honor that for them, but I've never once been asked that. The closest I ever came was my sister was worried that I would hide behind the camera and not be in any photos, but I explained why and how that wouldn't be the case and then she was enthusiastic about it too

(and it actually did turn out that some of her favorite wedding photos were mine and that she also had good photos from the hired photographer with me in them)

@AdamDavis hey, can we continue in here. I would like to hear your thoughts and I did try to clean up the question a bit too

hey adam

btw, I tweaked the question a bit further to try to narrow in a bit. I was still a bit emotionally charged when I wrote it and wasn't honestly expecting the backlash it got, though I can kind of understand it after re-reading my initial question phrasing from a position that didn't have the extra details that are in my head

I'm sorry, but you were planning your shots, taking them with a professional camera, using professional techniques to capture hundreds more shots than any guest. This is not, in any way, "shooting like a guest"

by shooting like a guest, I mean that I took photos much less often

and from more confined positions

Regardless, I'll re-read you question with your new edits and see if I have suggestions that might boil it down.

I was not wandering about

and the high image count was simply because I knew my hit rate would plumit

shooting what I consider "as a guest" means my hit rate drops by about 50%, with the extra backing off I did, it dropped to like 25% of normal

I understand that you felt you had significantly cut back from what you'd do as a professional. From your description, though, I can certainly understand why the pro felt you were stepping on their toes - because you were stepping on their toes.

well, they also wouldn't have known I shot 500 photos

that's primarily made up of about 10 to 15 bursts with no falsh

*flash

my camera was at my face less time than most guests

atleast if they had an iphone or point and shoot

and besides that, that was mostly at the reception. The ceramony I did under 100, of which 20 were trying to get a shot of my sister in law coming down the isle between heads and about another 30 were the same for recessional

the other 50 were broken up around 4 to 5 shots at a time about 10 times during the entire ceramony

I'd say of a 7 hour wedding, I spent no more than 15 minutes taking photos cumulatively

You are close to the family, which means you'll be in many, if not most of the "important" shots. Your camera has a relatively loud shutter noise. You chose to bring it up only during the "important" parts, when the other photographer was also trying to get a shot - a shot that included you without your camera. It must certainly have been a very frustrating experience for them.

@AdamDavis I have a 5d mark iii, it has a quiet mode shutter that is very quiet

you can't hear it from more than a foot or two away in a quiet room

that has just basic background noises

and my camera only goes up if I see every working lens at the time and none can possibly have me in them

if I see one person and I know two are working, my camera stays out of sight until I find the other photographer

that's a hard and fast requirement for me any time I'm shooting, even professionally

It's quieter, but not "only a foot or two away in a quiet room" quiet: youtube.com/watch?v=Rup3T6j_r9s

by quiet I mean someone's speaking, the AC is running, you have some basic background noise

not quiet as in silent

I mean, you can't hear it from more than a few feet away during a ceremony

one to two might have been a slight exaggeration, but I've had people I've been shooting photos of think I didn't take the photo from 5 to 6 feet away

I guess the best example of something of similar sound is a footstep, though I suppose that has a lot of variability too

At any rate, I see you feel you've gone above and beyond the call of duty in avoiding the ire of the photographer, and are still surprised that they are irritated. The push back is people telling you that you're wrong, and you simply aren't accepting it. I don't know what to say other than what I've already said.

I guess your best options are either to ignore the professional who is getting irritated, or to leave your camera at home, since it doesn't appear that you are interested in changing yourself - only in figuring out the right words to say to the other photographer so they accept your intrusion.

@AdamDavis let me ask a different question then. The main reason I'm resistant to the idea that I was somehow interfering is that I've done this exactly the same (or even more aggressively) at over a dozen weddings of close friends and family. In every other case, the photographers have actually commented on how refreshing it was to have someone so good at avoiding causing issues

and actually thanked me, if not asked for my contact info (though sadly in those cases, it was outside my areas that I work)

I'm not asking so much what I can say to make the photographer ok with it, I want to know how to get her to calm down and talk respectfully, professional to professional and figure out what she needs to happen. That may be that she actually needs me to stop, but I want real reasons then

and I want them respectfully

as an aside though, I'm not sure there was a better option than how it went down. I found out from my mother in law that apparently the photographer was showing quite a bit of attitude before I was even around

She's in the middle of a job. She doesn't have time to hash it out with another professional who isn't on the clock. At the first sign of irritation you should have set your camera aside.

@AdamDavis there is down time around the time she was talking to me. Things get really quiet during the time between portraits and the bride and groom's entrance

there's nothing going on for a good 15 minutes usually with no real photos to take

especially when there is a second camera

@AdamDavis note that she wasn't even actually asking me to set my camera aside, just to move back (which is how I normally behave anyway)

As a professional, don't you usually spent such "down time" planning out the next sequence, discussing things with your seconds and the wedding planner/officiant/DJ/etc? You might give a guest a little bit of time, but I'd expect you have better things to do than spend 5 minutes discussing the reasons why another off-duty photographer's actions are causing problems.

@AdamDavis not really, it's usually relax time at that point having just come off hectic portraits. I personally don't mind the interpersonal stuff so much, but had she not been rude, it would have been over a lot faster and with a much better outcome for all

either way, I plan on hashing that out in advance from now on

Well, good luck!

I'd never had a problem before, so I'm not sure what was different this time (other than her coming in with a chip on her shoulder already before I even entered the room)

but I certainly don't want a repeat

Keep in mind that it's quite possible that all the previous instances the photographers were simply being very respectful and careful with you, and didn't bring up a lot of the problems you may have caused, and she's merely the first to show visible irritation.

@AdamDavis you do that by avoiding someone, not by thanking them

Hashing it out in advance would certainly help.

I've actually had positive confirmation of not being a porblem

problem

or them noticing that I was there to get a shot they had been in the wrong place at the wrong time for and they were glad I caught it

things where they expressed actual pleasure at the situation

because I do always talk with the photographers to avoid misunderstandings

Perhaps you've never come across this in the world, but professionals who do a lot of work often find as they get busy, that it's easier to work around a problem, and assure the problem that they are not a problem than it is dealing with them and trying to educate them.

For example, you not only want her to tell you that you're a problem, but you want her to explain why and how you're a problem, and further that she be respectful while doing it.

A professional doesn't have time for that, and often it's easier, faster, and better to simply smile, nod, give them a pat on the back, and then work around them.

@AdamDavis I'd settle for something as simple as "you are going to take our sales away". I've got a reputation of being invisible and not being in the way. Just about any other reason would have been ok. She chose the one I know isn't possibly correct unless it was just that her second never tried the shot

that's unfortunate, but it is also not my fault

or even an "I'm not sure what happened, I just know what my second told me, as long as you do what you say you will and stay out of the way, we're good, but please stop if I nod at you that you are causing issues"

Really, you think they have to justify to you why they think you're a problem?

I think a real reason I'm a problem is needed before they ask a guest to stop taking photos when guests are being allowed to take photos

it isn't like there were no guests taking photos

if they want me to not do something I have every right to do, I want an accurate reason, it can be brief, but it should be accurate and not presented rudely. It's never ok to be rude to a guest. If I found myself having to be rude to guests, I would stop working weddings

but the fact is you don't have to be

AJ, I wish there was a way I could help you understand, but there clearly isn't. Suffice to say, I think you aren't going to get the answer you want on your question. I wish you luck in your endeavors!

though, I'm getting distracted a bit there. The thing that really bothered me was that she didn't believe me when I told her that her assistant didn't try any shots I was in the way for and blew my explination that I was staying out of the way and would continue to stay out of the way off

@AdamDavis thank you and thank you for the efforts, it's still helpful fodder for thought

even if I may disagree with it, I appreciate the effort

@AJHenderson "... I want to know how to get her to calm down and talk respectfully, professional to professional..." By also being hired to cover the event, and by having insured that the other photographer was aware of this in advance. If she's been hired to cover a gig, and someone else shows up with pro gear shooting like they are a pro that she was not made aware of in advance she's not going to see you as a pro. Even if your name is Walter Iooss, Jr.!

Fair answer

Actually the only reason I haven't up voted your answer is that I disagree that the pro can stop a guest from shooting unless they've cleared that with the client before hand, but other than that I agree with your answer. I know I would never dream of pushing something on a clients guest that I wasn't absolutely sure the client would back me on