Not a bar, but plays one on TV

Derpy

09:18

Played an "Haunted House" game in Dreams since it was in the "best games"collection.

Had some decent scenes, but.... also some poor writing IMHO.

One day I will finally understand why "horror" stories often try to force the downer ending at the cost of it making no sense at all.

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

@Derpy Is at the cost of not making sense a common qualifier in your experience?

Derpy

@vicky_molokh-unsilenceMonica In fan-made stories, yep, seems quite common.

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

@Derpy Ah. I think I have a too-small exposure to that specific subset to compare.

Derpy

Look, I am just talking about the abused "ending plot twist" that usually end up with the protagonist death because "all was a trap from the start", even if that doesn't make any sense.

In a way, it is like Scooby-Doo monsters, who are real until they discover the trick at the end of the episode.

So, the plane disguised as a dragon can flap its wing, you can see the larynx of a mask when it opens its mouth and so on...

@vicky_molokh-unsilenceMonica In this specific case, the plot is basically "Old aunt living in old house in the middle of nowhere has died, you are the only one to inherit the house but only if you can spend a night inside".

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

@Derpy Well that does look a bit like a thing the genre-savvy would be wary of. But if the rest of the story doesn't telegraph the inevitability, the no-win-options ending would of course be annoying.

Derpy

09:30

As soon as you enter, the house is obviously haunted, a letter on a desk just in front of the door informs you that every door is closed and you have to find keys, solve small puzzles and so on...

@vicky_molokh-unsilenceMonica That's not the problem, wait a sec and it should be clear.

So, since you are "average not-very-smart horror story protagonist" you decide it is worthy to explore an haunted house, do quite a bit of keys gathering and such... all while the house is trying to kill you.

(note: you can't actually die, but that is more of a "gameplay" element that a story one, probably due to limitation many sequence are scripted in a way that can't kill you. Think cutscenes if that helps)

At this point probably you expect that the house is evil and the aunt was killed either because she was doing some weird ritual or because the house itself was built over the rumbles of a Maya cemetery built over a native Americans cemetery built over the resting place of a eldritch ancient good...

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

@Derpy Infinite retries with the puzzles, or blunder your way through them right or wrong?

Derpy

@vicky_molokh-unsilenceMonica the puzzles can't really kill you, it is more of "can't go this way until you find how". The monsters like I said are more scripted so that they can't really get you but not "because plot"

Like for example you getting chased, but if you do poorly the monster also slows down.

Was made that way because it is mostly an Halloween game

doppelgreener

@Derpy is this a visual novel?

oh, it's in Dreams

i mean, an answer could be that people aren't as good at writing these things as we expect them to be because we're generally comparing them to the experts

Derpy

Anyway, fast forward to the ending. You have to find a lot of keys to be able to enter a room... and then you get trapped inside. The aunt appears out of nowhere and surprise, she is basically a vampire who drawn you here because she needed to feed on the blood of a relative to stay young. You die. End.

Now, I can accept that you die, I mean... was labeled "horror".

doppelgreener

we would call this, maybe, lack of build-up or foreshadowing

Derpy

09:44

But if that was just to get you there from the start......

WHY would the aunt make you go thru collecting keys in the first place?????

doppelgreener

she's a real big fan of pranks

Derpy

Either that or "I will give him a chance, if he is not stupid enough to get all keys he can escape"

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

She must feed on the blood of the smart to stay smart? (But then being tricked by the invitation means the idea is undermined already.)

Derpy

Exactly. And I see this plot device being used quite a lot in fan made works... and even some not-so-fanmade ones.

doppelgreener

@Derpy the "person suddenly kills you at the end" plot device, or the "put down trials to filter out undesirables" device?

the first is kind of shoddy writing, the second is ancient

Derpy

10:04

@doppelgreener the first is abused, but I've came to expect that. The "all was a trap to kill you" is quite common.

What annoys me is the "Trap to kill you" + "we had at least one hundred opportunities to kill you during the story but did not because then the story would be to short"

doppelgreener

i mean, that's a totally reasonable construction

Derpy

It is not even a "put down trials to filter out undesirables"... more of a "put down trials to make story longer when big bad has no reason to put down trials"

doppelgreener

stories aren't there to be logical sequences of events, they're there to tell stories. and people aren't purely logical creatures—Vulcans are, and we're not Vulcans. it's pretty valid to have people make seemingly irrational decisions because it makes a better story... on account of it makes a better story.

Super relevant:

SHUT UP ABOUT PLOT HOLES

►

The title and thesis is a pretty strong statement, lol

But it's a short video about the inherent value of plot contrivances and why they aren't necessarily bad entirely on account of being plot contrivances

Derpy

yep, but imagine this.
You are a demon lord, you need your minions to sacrifice the hero to be resurrected. To be more precise, you need the body to be intact (doesn't matter if alive) to perform the ritual.

If the body is lost... you can't get resurrected.

Would you really put your base inside a volcano and make the hero cross a long section of difficult platforming areas with disappearing platforms, sadistic enemy placement and so on... all so that they WILL fall in the lava, burn... and "OH, RATS! I FORGOT! I NEEDED THE BODY NOW IT BURNED!!!!"

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

Sliding scale of contrivance justification.

Derpy

10:16

(fast forward to Ganon doing exactly that in Zelda 2)

doppelgreener

@Derpy well, there's the story where that happens, and the story where the minions find the hero in their sleep in the first night, bind and gag them, and immediately perform their ritual in the living room. one of these doesn't actually have a story to tell about it.

and one of these is interesting and varied and memorable and has room for characters arcs, and the other is just an event that happens and there's nothing we can say about it.

Derpy

@doppelgreener I know, but the one that has a story to tell DIDN'T need the bad guy to look like an idiot by constantly risking loosing the Mac Muffin they needed (in this case the hero body) because of factors THEY added.

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

Expanding on the sliding scale:
Sometimes an author wants to make a story focusing on X. The X can be a series of puzzles in a horror house or whatever. And sometimes audiences seek out stories about X. But there are different ways to go about writing such a story, with different degrees of justification.
For example, everyone sings in a musical, and usually no effort is spent on justifying the need to turn many scenes (including physical conflicts) into a sing-and-dance-off. Because the target audience cares about getting X more than about the justification of X.

This is of course different from a 'start with a noteworthy situation and see how it logically unfolds' kinds of stories (and histories).

Derpy

I mean, one can say that they don't like the Pirates of the Caribbean movies but at least in the first one when Will realizes he is the key to be able to lift the curse... he abuses that knowledge and Barbossa actually has to keep him alive because he needs him so.

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

On the minions-and-sacrifice side, it's totally possible for a story to have the sacrifice to go without a hitch as described above . . . and then the story retell other events whose outcomes are more in doubt and take longer to reach conclusions.

Derpy

10:29

@vicky_molokh-unsilenceMonica currently listening to the video. But as a disclaimer... I am NOT complaining about "plot holes" like minor inconsistencies or "not realistic within story" events (Indiana Jones surviving an Atomic bomb test in a fridge for example).

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

@Derpy Seems like I'll need to switch to audio processing mood and listen to the video [sic], in order to not miss context.

Derpy

I am complaining about someone acting in a certain ways that makes no sense for them only because having them acting otherwise would give away the downer hending.

@vicky_molokh-unsilenceMonica ops, sorry, the message was meant for doppel :P - my bad.

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

Processing the video anyway. So far it seems like a mixture of a terminology dispute (which is actually decent) and . . . I don't know, 'you are wrong for stating this contrivance diminishes your enjoyment of the plot'? Watching onward.

On one hand I want to agree with the 'your are watching this film wrong' and on the other hand I want to point out that not all films are for all target audiences and it's OK to express one's mismatch.

Also, 'mainstream nerd culture' is such a strange phrase for him to use.

The bit about click-generation does seem very plausible.

Derpy

10:47

At about 6:26 he mentions something about Harry Potter and the goblet being a portal. Not really familiar with Potter plot, but that at least can be skipped over because maybe the spell had some weird requirement and that was indeed a "simple enough" way to trick Harry.

But if one of the book had Voldemort going around trying to kill each one of his own Horcruxes..... that wouldn't be a great move, especially if Horcruxes were to be introduced later in the plot

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

I do totally agree with the early sections where he shows people misunderstanding what they saw and yelling plot hole. Sure, people are imperfect and do silly stuff like that.

Derpy

@vicky_molokh-unsilenceMonica Time ago I saw this movie. Spoiler: it's not that good. But I actually watched it because a)didn't had anything better to do and b) wanted to see how bad it could get.

2-Headed Shark Attack

2-Headed Shark Attack is an American low-budget survival horror film with an ensemble cast by The Asylum, released on January 31, 2012 in the United States. Directed by Christopher Ray, the film stars Carmen Electra, Charlie O'Connell, Brooke Hogan, Christina Bach, David Gallegos and Corinne Nobili. The film premiered on September 8, 2012 on Syfy. == Plot == The film opens with a group of wakeboarders being attacked and devoured by a two-headed great white shark. Meanwhile, Sea King, a Semester at Sea ship led by Professor Franklin Babish (Charlie O'Connell) and his wife, Anne (Carmen Electra)...

Near the end the cast is trapped on an island. The giant shark, capable to destroy ships is swimming around said island.

One of the students gives in to panic and tries to escape on the ship. That's also fine, I mean... bad move but plausible.

The others try to stay on the island because the shark can't get on land.

Then they discover that the island is sinking.

Is the island sinking a somehow lazy convenient plot device to avoid having the party stay on safe land? Yes it is.

doppelgreener

@Derpy basically, the portal is something you grab and then you're whisked away somewhere. the condition for being whisked away is merely that you grab the object. harry is handed lots of objects he's meant to grab. that book has a secret antagonist who could've said to Harry at any time "here, hold this" and boom, job done. Instead, the shadow villain gets Harry mixed up in a tournament, enchants the winning trophy, and engineers the tournament to make sure Harry can win.

Derpy

It is better than having them go swimming because they think they can defeat the shark in its element, armed with some toothpicks from lunch? YES. IT IS

@doppelgreener I meant, you could at least pretend "the object need to be golden, the trophy was"... or "can't really aim the spell very well from far away" or "must be something Voldemort touched before" and so on....

doppelgreener

I think on one level, you're running into the narrative internally contradicting itself: a genuine plot hole. Star Wars Episode I has a plot hole when it establishes that the entire invasion of Naboo is to get someone to sign a treaty, and then when the invasion is done, the villains just want that same figure taken away like the goal was to imprison them and conquer the land or something.

Likewise, the villain contradicts themselves if they simultaneously need the hero alive and try to kill them.

(As a premeditated thing, not an irrational spur of the moment thing.)

Derpy

11:01

@doppelgreener That's what I meant. It would be like Voldemor having just one Horcrux, knowing that Harry is said Horcrux... and spending all time trying to get Harry killed.

doppelgreener

But on another level, you're running into "stories need time to be stories", hence we need the bad guy to be in a guarded castle. He might need the villain alive, but that doesn't mean he wants to leave his guard down, etc.

@Derpy tbf, that could actually be pretty interesting, like, really. Let's suppose you're an Evil Villain of Shadowdarkness. You can actually be resurrected, once, because a piece of you is elsewhere. But the piece of you lives inside the hero who's prophecied as the only person who can kill you. And they're smart enough they might one day figure out how to nullify the piece of you inside themselves, so that's not reliable. As a villain, what do you do?

You've got an actual complex situation with competing interests. There doesn't appear to be an option that will meet all your wants and needs. What do you choose? What do you experience in making that choice, and giving up something in doing so?

Derpy

@doppelgreener If that was the plot, great ... But that isn't the same plot I had in mind I guess :P

doppelgreener

Sure

It's not, but, those elements could make a pretty interesting plot honestly

In theory, it seems like the best choice is to give up your chance at resurrection and try to kill the one person who is the only person who can kill you, even knowing that ironically you might be creating your own demise, but it's still your best option and all you can do is rely on that you might overcome them yourself. The prophecy predicts that, too.

Derpy

@doppelgreener BTW, I think that MAY be something with Breath of the Wild 2 if I am guessing right... so have patience.

doppelgreener

Me? I'm just talking in the abstract

Talking about the plot situation you brought up because actually that sounds great and I want to talk about it outside the context of a terf's narrative

Derpy

11:09

I mean, if the plot goes like I hope, your wish for said plot could be (kinda) granted

doppelgreener

I'm really not talking about BOTW 2

Like, I promise

I have a totally different read on BOTW 2.

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

@Derpy I'm getting vague HPMoR vibes. (Which was a fun but flawed ride, because half the time it was a Take That fic fighting strawmen, but at the other times the lines of reasoning were interesting whether one agreed with them or not.)

Derpy

@vicky_molokh-unsilenceMonica Again, sorry but I didn't ever actually read any Harry Potter book, thanks to some weird coincidences.

doppelgreener

@Derpy HPMoR is a very long fanfiction series and a very popular one

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

@Derpy I haven't read the originals either. But I got exposed to the fic by way of Three Worlds Collide.

doppelgreener

11:16

if you see a "top N harry potter fanfics" list, it's probably on there

that kind of popular

Derpy

Back when the serie started I skipped them because I was given the (wrong) idea that the main character was a real bad example of "nerd/dork/bookworm" stereotypes. Probably the horrible book covers had a part in this.

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

I thought Harry was more of a jock - chummy and sporting.

But then again I only know him from films.

Derpy

well, not specifically the ones who had in mind but....

doppelgreener

Wow those are horrid

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

So bad it's good.

doppelgreener

11:21

that second one's like a fashion shoot

Derpy

Now you understand why I lived for years thinking Harry Potter was some fantasy version of Captain Underpants?

doppelgreener

Yeah for sure

Derpy

They managed to give me that "fat, fails at sports, eyeglasses, ugly face, big nose" bookworm stereotype vibe.

doppelgreener

@Derpy also looks at you judgementally for not understanding his favorite series on his intellectual level and instead liking it just for the action and explosions

Derpy

@doppelgreener Nope, back then the cover art made me think the author was actually bashing students that liked to study and so on. Like some "for teenagers" American tv series love to do.

doppelgreener

11:28

oh my goodness\

now that i take another look, i could totally read him as being cut (his forehead) and bruised (his cheek) and roughed up (i mean, just look at him, he's a mess)

but i mean, i get that judgemental read out of that picture at least, lol

Derpy

Anyway, remember when I mentioned Tokyo Magnitude 8.0 some time ago? That one also has a plot twist in the ending, but it is something that actually makes sense.

In that case the twist relies on the viewer to not notice some subtle details at first, but the characters are indeed acting as aware of that twist all along.

There is no instance where a character acts out in a way that is inconsistent with that twist.

Derpy

12:24

anyway, seems there is also a reply to that video.

WHY PLOT HOLES MATTER - A Response To Patrick Willems "Shut Up About Plot Holes" | Cynical Reviews

►

Be aware, the guy here doesn't take it lightly.

Won't advocate for either one, leave the decision to you.

But I will agree with the second one say that the first one was a tad condescending at times.

BTW the second video also claim that Voldemort choose the trophy because "he has an attachment to certain objects of sentimental value as established by the plot"

@vicky_molokh-unsilenceMonica @doppelgreener ^ does this claim make any sense to you since you know the actual plot better than me?

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

12:44

@Derpy No idea, I only watched the film at half attention.

And sure, there's some condescension, but that's criticism of personality, not of points.

Derpy

13:43

@vicky_molokh-unsilenceMonica I think that the point was "you get annoyed because others enjoy watching-movies-wrong as how you call it, I get annoyed because you are condescending, call me stupid and tell me what I should be doing"

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

@Derpy Oh sure, the objection to a BadWrongFun accusation is valid, and I should've made same objection upon viewing the initial video, but somehow just skipped over the BWFness.

Derpy

(also, sorry if I lag but apparently my connection today is in 56k mode)

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

@Derpy Don't worry. This chat seems to be treated largely asynchronously, and unlikely to be buried. (And if a reply gets buried, a ping tends to point to it anyway.)

doppelgreener

14:52

@Derpy sort of, but I've kind of exhausted the extent to which I'm willing to continue spotlighting a terf's IP for the time being

Derpy

@doppelgreener ?

doppelgreener

I don't want to continue talking about those books on a public forum.

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

@Derpy Let's put it this way: the original author holds some grudges if you look through sufficiently deep quote hunts (not the ones that get most of the controversy-attention for some reason though), and not everyone evaluates works on a purely artistic merit basis.

doppelgreener

No, let's not put it this way.

The author is directly, explicitly, repeatedly supportive of and promoting transphobic messages and has been for the entire past year. It requires very little hunting to find examples and they require no deep reading.

Derpy

ah, no need to go in detail, I just thought you were talking about the videos and the general topic we were talking about before, not the actual book plot example

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

15:04

@doppelgreener For some reason when I encountered this topic several times before in this year, people brought up rather reasonable statements and attributed deep malice to them, and only recently have I seen people point to quotes that are explicit and direct. Maybe it's a coincidence that I've only been exposed to the superficial discussions and not the deeper/directer ones, but that's why the shift in my stance over the months from puzzlement to the above statement.

doppelgreener

@vicky_molokh-unsilenceMonica Perhaps you could ask rather than going "oh, they just hold grudges, and you have to read real deep for it."

No, she's specifically stigmatising trans treatment and perpetuating the fear that trans are people rapists—a fear which gets trans people killed.

All while claiming to care about us. Just, not enough to not say the things that dozens of figures, including the actors of her own films and multiple leading human rights organisations have told her is harmful to say and denounced her for saying.

Did you know she's been denounced by six different human rights and LGBT advocacy groups now?

And that's just the ones I could find last time I got curious!

Carcer

yeah, deep diving isn't required - she's got a quite clearly bioessentialist viewpoint and she repeats anti-trans arguments that have no real basis in fact or evidence

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

@doppelgreener I did ask before, but somehow the replies I got were on the indirect side. Then I ran into the long statement you seem to be pointing to. And on that essay I agree with you, but that's not the view that was produced by the quotations I've been handed over earlier.

Carcer

but she doesn't express them in a vitriolic way, so at face value she can be taken as being reasonable (and that favourite refuge of bigotry, "just asking questions!")

Derpy

anyway, for a change of topic, I wonder if the author of the first video would like the reasons I kinda hate the "Bridge to Terabithia" movie (the Disney one, don't know how much it was changed from the book)

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

15:12

@Derpy Never watched nor read that one, but am vaguely aware of it through cultural osmosis. The one with a bittersweet ending?

Derpy

@vicky_molokh-unsilenceMonica somehow, yes. Also the one that the Simpsons writers did an horrible parody of (really, I kinda hate that episode...)

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

@Derpy Haven't watched Simpsons either other than random-walking-past exposure and maybe occasional reaction clips. I must be terrible as far as common denominators of fiction-familiarity go.

Derpy

@vicky_molokh-unsilenceMonica Don't worry, if you never saw that episode, it is actually a good thing.

Basically the whole plot of the episode was to say that one of the main character in the book was crazy (and it also looked like some sort of bashing at people who like fantasy stories...)

I mean, I understand parody... but if you go as far as turning a character behavior into Maladaptive Daydreaming Disorder... I don't get if you are doing that "for fun" or to bash the original media.

Can't forget the horrible line "the real world is for people who can't imagine anything better".

(You know, even if the original character would have said that line -and spoiler she didn't- it is not like their life was so good they wouldn't had reason to say that)

Anyway, as for the reason I "hate" the original movie, it is more of a joke to be honest.

I don't hate the movie and I kinda understand the plot.

I hate the fact that the one who was so lucky to choose between a teacher and basically Pinkie choose the teacher ^_^'

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

@Derpy I've got a serious talk for you.

Do you actually like the character of Pinkie?

Derpy

15:31

@vicky_molokh-unsilenceMonica Depends. First, you have to specify WHAT you mean for "like" and what you think her actual character is.

Because at the very best, I think we may have different opinions on what her actual self is.

To be clear, I am talking about what I think was the original vision of Pinkie, based on what I saw in the first seasons.

Anyway, in the message above I just used the name Pinkie as the generic archetype of the odd, sometime cucoolander, seemly out-of-place dreamer character.

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

@Derpy Well, at the risk of misreading the context, your statement about choosing a teacher over a Pinkie seems to imply either some sort of communicative relation (on the lighthearted end of the spectrum), or alternatively 'whom would you save on Virmire' (on the grim end, but posted since Bridge is reportedly a serious story).

So 'like' as a preference in either of those senses.

@Derpy Second, my exposure to the series was limited, largely by way of a friend linking me select episodes as 'this is very cool even you would like this', but I have an impression that Pinkie tends to be portrayed as a well-meaning but manic cloudcookoolander, whose logic and speech is hard to follow and who is very very extraverted.

Derpy

'whom would you save on Virmire' - that is a Mass Effect reference? Never heard about that before. I assume it is one of that "choose who dies" dilemmas?

like "can save only one"?

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

@Derpy Yeah, in ME1 you have time to run and pick up only one of two groups of troops or something like that.

Derpy

(which reminds me I should be checking if Automaton has finally got an English release - but we can talk about that one another time.)

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

The place is about to go boom for . . . bombardment reasons or something.

It's been a while.

@Derpy Yeah, not familiar with that either. So . . . Pinkie?

Derpy

15:43

@vicky_molokh-unsilenceMonica oh, just forget that - it is a manga, but I was reminded about it by you message about choices. The protagonist is secretly put in a test and has to choose who to save between two groups, can't save both normally. He surprises everyone by choosing a third option of sacrificing his arm to save both)

@vicky_molokh-unsilenceMonica back to the question you asked. Nope, the plot of the movie isn't that - the protagonist doesn't have to choose who to save. Like I said, the plot makes totally sense in context, has a narrative purpose and everything. You can't blame the character for acting that way

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

@Derpy Those tests seem like a common candidate for a plot contrivance.

Derpy

@vicky_molokh-unsilenceMonica there is a reason, trying to keep that short, will explain after I reply to the Pinkie question :P

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

(They can be made reasonable, but I have an impression that there's just too much temptation for authors to include such a choice for the sake of the inclusion of the choice, and not because things lead to such a choice in a normal manner.)

Derpy

@vicky_molokh-unsilenceMonica There is a precise reason, trust me. And it "kinda" makes sense in the plot.

anyway, back to the Pinkie topic, as I said I don't "hate" the choice for plot specific reasons. I hate the choice because it results in a "not-so-happy" ending for the character I liked the most in the movie.

But again, it does makes sense in context.

I can explain it better if you don't care for a little spoiler.

Or you know, just read the plot here on wikipedia

Just let me specify a thing. When they mention the "trip to the library", the actual reason the protagonist didn't invite the other character is actually because he wanted to be alone with the teacher.

@vicky_molokh-unsilenceMonica as for the Pinkie topic, do you by chance remember anything about the episodes you saw?

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

@Derpy Oh dear, it's been a handful spread out over the course of probably years now. And the ones I will be able to remember bits of will not necessarily be the ones based on which my memories of the character are built. Let me try . . .

Derpy

15:55

@vicky_molokh-unsilenceMonica Oh, don't worry, was just trying to see if you saw any specific episode. A simpler question then, have you ever seen Pinkie actual family?

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

- There was one with time travel, in which two ponies were trying to alter some very early race. Also in one of the dark futures Dash was a soldier.
- There was something about a town where ponies erased cutie marks for the sake of uravnilovka. IIRC this was one of the episodes where Shy displayed signs of rogue training.
- I vaguely recall something Twilight-and-Rarity-focused where Twilight participated in tailory stuff.
- IIRC there was something with a train ride and Pinkie doing some very quick preparations when it comes to cooking and party confetti or the like.

- I saw at least some bits with the Discord, no longer sure if a complete episode.

Derpy

@vicky_molokh-unsilenceMonica ok, so nothing really "plot relevant" for the character behavior.

Well, let me say that in a sense you are right on some observations you made about the characters. What you probably lack is context.

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

@Derpy Nothing this-character-focused IIRC. But it's not like she's a wallflower even in episodes focusing on someone else.

@Derpy Oh, extremely likely, what with only being exposed to select episodes.

Derpy

@vicky_molokh-unsilenceMonica Mind you, there are inconsistencies over the various episodes. Consider that: Laure Faust probably planned the original characters and stories but left very soon. Then the original writers adapted part of her vision and probably filtered it thru their own. And then multiple writers where changed or shifted until almost none of the original remained.

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

That is likely to lead to a mess.

@Derpy So what's the deal with her family?

Derpy

16:10

First thing first. Pinkie is probably the most "anime" like character in the show, she indeed goes into extremes and exaggerations, but that is mostly done for laugh purposes. She IS the one character that is totally aware of the fourth wall, she is the one who defies physics, she is the one who often talks to the viewers directly.

So, in a way, what I am trying to say is that if she seems over the top, that is also due to the fact that she is a sort of "comic relif" character.

As for the family, give me a second

this is her original house.

this is filly Pinkie.

> "My sisters and I were raised on a rock farm outside of Ponyville. We spent our days working the fields."

A rock farm. Back in season one you would actually think she was making thing up on the spot. Later you discover that the farm actually exist and that was actually her life before.

Basically, up to a specif event, her life was constant depression, moving rocks around in a gray valley with a gray sky.

Then a specific event happened and she started trying to make other people happy.

Basically, at least based on my interpretation of the plot, the character is indeed overcompensating her previous life.

But that is on purpose - the character was actually planned to have that flaw.

And you know what's funny?

If you look at the other characters, you see that they also are overcompensating things and they are flawed in similar ways.

Twily? shows extreme signs of anxiety of being judged. Why? Because she has always been a fan of Celestia, still thinks she was lucky to become her apprentice and has a constant fear of be a failure.

Notice that if you take EG in account, she probably also was aware that a failure did indeed happen before.

AJ? Probably orphan, it is somehow clear that her parents went missing pretty soon (at least soon enough that she never got to know their full story). She lives in a farm with her Grandma, her brother and her smaller sister. Result? She thinks she has to be responsible for them and has big problems in admitting she need help (there is a full episode where she goes with no-sleep for days because she wouldn't ask for help with the harvest, for example)

Dash? Her big ego that makes her seem a "better than you" character? Fast forward to the discovery that actually she is very insecure about herself. Again, she is not boasting because she thinks she is better, she is doing it because she needs someone to tell her she is good (Did I mention that her parents used to basically put her on a pedestal for everything she did, including praising her if she lost in a competition or anything? She hate it, yet that still scars her personality).

And I could continue but you get the idea.

Anyway, back to Pinkie, there is a song in the first seasons that I think summarize the initial vision for the character quite well.

there are two lines there that summarize that quite well.

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

16:29

@Derpy That makes her more understandable on an IC level, but personally for me more annoying on an OOC level. I'm not sure of the degree to which this is an irrational dislike on my part, but I am tired of ultra-cheerful characters with a tragic or at least grim layer below. I think the breaking point for me was Isabella from Dragon Age 2.

Derpy

> 'Cause cheering up my friends
Is just what Pinkie is here to do
'Cause I love to make you
Smile, smile, smile

this is the first line.

Notice that this time she says that she "loves" to make others smile.

But later she actually says something subtly different.

> It fill my heart with sunshine
All the while
Yes it does
'Cause all I really need's a smile, smile, smile
From these happy friends of mine

She says that she "need" a smile.

@vicky_molokh-unsilenceMonica well, as I said multiple times, I came from anime, so probably that's what I am far more at peace with those kind of plot elements.

See One Piece Nami, the one who lived her youth working for the one who killed her adoptive mother, tried to keep smiling and for all the time thought her village considered her a traitor (while basically everyone instead knew her plan to buy back her village).

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

@Derpy This is probably a personal thing, but find the others' flaws less worrying on an IC level (as a 'hypothetical NPC acquaintance' inserted into the world) and less annoying on an OOC level (as a viewer).

Maybe it's that I am tired of smiling being mandatory for the assumption of happiness.

Derpy

@vicky_molokh-unsilenceMonica As for Pinkie, as Dash seems to need others to praise her because of her inner insecurity (a thing that she also projected over Scootaloo, never accepting the fact that the Scoot would never be able to fly and follow her steps like she wanted - another lost in writing subplot only recovered miraculously in an episode in season 8), Pinkie basically needs to be surrounded by happy people.

@vicky_molokh-unsilenceMonica as for the smile, that is just the song title.

Probably wouldn't have sounded as right with "Cause I love to make you happy in a non-materialistic way"

@vicky_molokh-unsilenceMonica Another example.

First seasons, they actually had to include the First Sin of Slice of Life series.

The "Secret Birthday party" episode.

You know the drill... the usual plot where a group of friends thinks it is smart to act out like they forgot someone birthday, only to give a surprise party in the end.

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

16:51

Doesn't need to be about literal smiles. As far as I'm concerned, happiness very much can be a quiet and/or solitary thing, and Pinkie seems to be a radical rejection of that notion, to a degree that IC I would worry about her barging into personal spaces, insisting that I stay at parties and the like.

I don't share interest with most of the other half-dozen protagonists\*, but IC I wouldn't need to *worry* about them showing in my vicinity, and OOC I don't find their attitudes annoying.

\* == Twilight is cool in all senses. I don't like some of Dash's presentation but her dedication to s…

@Derpy See, pulling off a party I didn't ask for is exactly the kind of thing I'd need to fear from Pinkie. Also fear her not believing me if I told her I don't like celebrating birthdays.

Derpy

@vicky_molokh-unsilenceMonica You assumed she was on the giving end? Nope, the party was FOR her.

and guess what, while the others were purposely trying to avoid her because surprise (IT NEVER WORKS IN ANY MEDIA - why you keep trying?) she feels forgotten, hurt and throws herself a solitary party.

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

@Derpy I was thinking there are 50/50 odds either way, but my point is she seems to be presented as the sort of character whose notion of happiness is heavily intertwined with stereotypes of loud parties, bright colours and the like.

Derpy

With a rock.

And a bale of hay.

@vicky_molokh-unsilenceMonica In a way you are right. She likes loud parties, but that doesn't mean she can't accept others way of life.

She tries to adapt too.

as for the bright colors, take in consideration that you are talking about someone that basically lived in gray valley and then discovered that the actual world outside was candyland.

I mean, do you see something that ISN'T bright colours in the rest of Equestria?

That's just the standard world palette there.

@vicky_molokh-unsilenceMonica Since you mentioned that, there are at least two episodes that kinda go about what you are saying

Mostly, A Friend in Deed

Here she does indeed have some difficulties accepting that one specific character doesn't want to be her friend but to be fair she kinda accepts his ways in the end.

She also kinda still stick her nose in the character life though.

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

@Derpy Well, relatively speaking.

Derpy

17:15

anyway, she is quite noisy, but at least she does care about others. A little too much at times but in the context of the show (meaning living as those characters live) I don't think I would be annoyed.

That doesn't mean that she probably won't "wanted to be the first one to say happy birthday so I though it was the best plan ever to came at your house and start playing the trumpet in front of your door at 3AM"

But you also have to recognize the effort. I mean, she is indeed a cartoon character so time isn't a problem, but she apparently keeps an updated archive of every pony she meets with things like birthday, favorite color, music, games, thing to avoid, fears, flavors they dislike etc etc etc.

@vicky_molokh-unsilenceMonica Anyway, since you mentioned it, that one is also basically her sister.

Quiet type, actually want to be a geologist, studies rocks.

They are quite close despite that.

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

@Derpy Oh wait, I think I remember a geologist from somewhere.

Did . . . I . . . actually watch that episode?

Derpy

@vicky_molokh-unsilenceMonica Maud Pie, multiple episodes.

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

@Derpy Definitely familiar name.

Derpy

And if you notice, they are indeed built to somehow remind one of the cartoon version of Starfire and Raven from Teen Titans.

The hyperactive alien princess and the quiet demon child.

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

We keep running into non-intersecting references.

> Pinkie literally turns into a rocket and explodes with joy, bouncing about rambling

Talk about going over the top when things are already over the top.

Derpy

17:29

@vicky_molokh-unsilenceMonica Maud page on the wiki

@vicky_molokh-unsilenceMonica well, she is also the one get "folded" in a cube and then unfolds back in a pony with Transformers clacking sound effects.

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

@Derpy I think I saw some episode where at first the protagonists were disappointed upon meeting her, but then she found some unique way to contribute to solving a problems others were having a difficulty overcoming.

Derpy

based on the description, that is her first main appearance. But if that is the one, you are misremembering some elements.

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

It's been a long while and never a major focus as far as my media consumption goes, so sorry for messing up the retelling.

Derpy

The protagonists were disappointed because they somehow thought she was acting "snobbish" and didn't want to interact with them because of that.

In the end, because of a small incident caused by Pinkie while she was trying to convince the others that Maud was a nice pony, they realize that she is simply that way.

Basically, the actual problem there was for once on the others

Knowing Pinkie, they kinda assumed her sister would be the same, and when presented with a very quiets and somehow introvert pony they wrongly though she simply didn't like them because reasons.

And to be fair, she did indeed had some weird reactions that could trip off someone who didn't know her.

For example, Fluttershy tried to show her the various animals living nearby, while for all the time she kept looking at the rocks.

So, Fluttershy just assumed she was bored and didn't like animals, while she was just interested in some mineral formations she noticed.

As usual, most of MLP plots would be 5 minutes long if some characters just asked the right question at the right time.

In this case, had Fluttershy actually asked Pinkie something like "Any idea why I invited your sister to a pic-nic and she kept looking at some rocks al the time?" she would have know that Maud was actually studying as a geologist in the first place.

Had RARITY known that, she probably would have invited her to the nearby gem cave (gems that she uses for decorating dresses) instead of showing her her dress collection.

Actually... I think it is implied she did invite her to the mine after getting to know her better in a later episode

But since all the ponies must have some communication issues whenever a new episode is needed, we get 30' of them wondering why Maud is acting that way.

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

17:52

@Derpy Oh well, miscommunication does seem like a commonly overused staple in other series too. Not that it makes things better.

Derpy

@vicky_molokh-unsilenceMonica I think that it does makes sense if you realize that the original plan Faust had was a cartoon that would try to show kids how to live with actual problems they probably had in life to, like bulling, school problems, problems with friends and so on.

There is a whole episode where the Cutie Mark Crusaders thinks that a character is bulling them, but try to solve the problem themselves instead of asking an adult because basically "only losers do that".

Obviously, they get themselves into a mess, and asking would have solved the problem in about 5 minutes.

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

@Derpy Oh, that's a trio I also vaguely recall. I think from the episode of their quest for CMs.

Derpy

(the character doing the bulling was actually bullied herself and was acting out of character to "hide" in a way)

Anyway, I am sorry but I have to go for a while, we can continue this later if you wish.

Bye for now.

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

@Derpy Bye and have a good whatever thing you're off to.

As for continuing - I'm not sure whether you're finding any enjoyment out of mostly going through explaining basic-to-intermediate things about the franchise to me, but I'm certainly open to the discussions at this moderate pace (as opposed to diving into the corner chat, which would probably be overwhelming).

Transcript for

Not a bar, but plays one on TV