Not a bar, but plays one on TV

8:00 AM

@vicky_molokh-unsilenceMonica oh, don't worry. If you want to know something, just drop a word.

@Derpy Oh, also finally finished reading through the plot of Terabithia when the talk was over (because I kept switching to other things). And I'm not sure what to make of it after the completion.

Derpy

8:12 AM

@vicky_molokh-unsilenceMonica it is a weird story yes. As in.... Narnia style of weird. I am not sure what the message would be either, the inclusion of that religion theme fells off.

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

@Derpy Familiar with Narnia from the film, and it seemed mostly a straightforward story with the common good-against-evil themes. Tera . . . I don't know. I don't find it intriguing enough to watch or read the full thing to try understanding better either.

Derpy

@vicky_molokh-unsilenceMonica let me find an old question... give me 5 minutes.

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

And it's not even the 'what is the message'. I'm fine with stories that don't have a message - they can be judged on their own merits rather than the merits of any messages. But is Bridge a thing with great merit of its own? If it is, the synopsis of the story doesn't convey that to me (or I fail to see the conveyance).

Derpy

@vicky_molokh-unsilenceMonica I meant something different, sorry if I was unclear.

Look at this two questions on sci-fi: first and second

I can't really help with a more in-depth analysis (maybe BESW has some material in that regard?) but Narnia has some strong religious subthemes tied in the plot.

What I was trying to say is that while those themes are quite evident in Narnia I don't get if the inclusion of that detail in Terabithia was done with any specific reason.

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

8:28 AM

/me shrugs its pedipalps.

Derpy

Looking at the movie only - I never got to read the actual book - I would say that the story is basically one of a young boy getting bullied for various reasons, having problems with his family (the jealousy for his younger sister is a main theme) and so on... He meet a friend and start to get better by "escaping the reality" (yet... I don't think either of the two main characters actually thought that the imaginary world was real, unlike what the Simpsons parody would like you to believe).

Then the friends suddenly dies, and for various circumstances the loss actually helps him to "accept" his family and in a way his sister.

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

Ah, so it's a deep character study whose merits essentially cannot be hinted at in a synopsis?

Derpy

@vicky_molokh-unsilenceMonica well, the synopsis is indeed short.

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

@Derpy Well it has to be, that's the point of synopses.

Derpy

but what I don't get, like I said, is the inclusion of that event at the church.

from the movie alone I don't get if the fear Jess has for Leslie being sent to hell is actually a subtle bashing or just a random plot element to reinforce his pain.

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

8:38 AM

@Derpy It could just be a 'random' element that is just a reflection of the character's life. My closer surrounding is overwhelmingly atheist with a few faith-without-religion people, and yet I did encounter several similarly religiously-themed scenes over the years.

Derpy

10:15 AM

@vicky_molokh-unsilenceMonica I don't know... like I said, I don't have enough elements to judge.

AncientSwordRage

@Derpy Narnia was explicitly an allegory though, any other allusions to religious themes in other stories would likely be more subtle

Derpy

@AncientSwordRage Yes, that's probably true.

AncientSwordRage

I also only saw the movie, but it seemed like it was giving a lot of mixed messages

is the fantasy world they create good or bad? Is that what helps him accept the family? Is it condoning what the family did?

I think the book is clearer in those themes, based on what I read, but it left me very diappointed

Which pony is that: chat.stackexchange.com/transcript/message/55576174#55576174

Derpy

@AncientSwordRage The fantasy world, based on what I've collected (again, never got to read the books) isn't directly nor bad nor good.

AncientSwordRage

@Derpy so what purpose does it serve to the plot...or even the character?

Derpy

10:25 AM

Seems more like a refuge that helps the characters to grow

AncientSwordRage

@Derpy that seems positive then

Derpy

look - if you try to go for a pure allegory themes...

The world of Terabithia seems like a world made for children, where children "rule" free of their problems.

a theme in the book seems to be that despite many think that childhood is an happy time free of any worry, childs can have bad problems too.

AncientSwordRage

@Derpy thats true

Derpy

now, assume for a second that Terabithia is the "perfect" childhood that they aspire too. And obviously the real world is the real world with its problems.

Then, we have two characters that escape to a "box" in their mind to try and defend from the hardship outside.

So, if the imaginary world is the perfect childhood, and the other is the actual "adult" world, it means that Leslie dies exactly in the middle of them.

AncientSwordRage

@Derpy I think I remember reading that interpretation somewhere

Derpy

10:33 AM

At the same time, Jess survives. But while this could seem like negative for Leslie, almost meaning that she never learned to grown up, there is also the fact that Jess still basically cares for that imaginary world afterwards, and in a way gives it to his younger sister.

I am confused, can't wrap my mind around it. Some element seem to point to a tale about a box, the interpretation I don't like and the one the Simpsons parody seems to use. On the other side, I see also elements of a "Old enough to read fairy tales again"..

@AncientSwordRage That's Sunset Shimmer, a character from the EG movies. She was Celestia original student before Twilight, due to some arguments she fled thru a magical mirror and ended up in an alternate world as an human. Initially the main antagonist in the first Equestria Girl movie, she gets redeemed in the ending and managed to become a fans favorite. When you hear someone say "Mane Seven" instead of "Mane Six", that's probably her being included in the main characters group.

Kinda unlucky, the figure is probably based on the first movie, hence the "bad girl attitude" look they gave her.

AncientSwordRage

@Derpy I've not followed anythign EG/human ponies related

Derpy

@AncientSwordRage Manages to have a little cameo in the final song of the main serie final episode.

AncientSwordRage

10:49 AM

fair enough

Derpy

11:02 AM

Easily missed, but she is behind Twilight in a scene.

AncientSwordRage

@Derpy I don't think I ever watched all of the mane series

Derpy

@AncientSwordRage oh, don't worry about that.

Anyway, back to Terabithia "box" theme, at least it isn't as incomprehensible as the Binding of Isaac videogame (another story that after years I can't wrap my head around)

AncientSwordRage

12:25 PM

@Derpy I've not played it, but I have heard good things

Derpy

1:19 PM

I'm back, sorry, had a furniture delivery

@AncientSwordRage Look, gameplay wise, it is like playing a randomized version of the first Zelda game, with tons of random powerups.

AncientSwordRage

@Derpy yay

@Derpy gameplay?

I thought we were discussing a movie/unread book

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

Isaac.

@AncientSwordRage You admitted not playing it, thus Derpy described the gameplay.

AncientSwordRage

oh right

I lost track

Derpy

The art style... lucky it is fair "cartoonish" because the monsters you meet are worthy of Junji Ito mangas. Still, it can be somehow disturbing to many players.

There is some sort of humor attempt, but it doesn't manage to make the game less heavy.

Anyway, what I meant before is that most player don't agree on what the actual plot is.

AncientSwordRage

2:19 PM

@Derpy that's impressive

Derpy

in a way, it is.

In a way, I don't know if even the original author has a clear vision of what the game is.

AncientSwordRage

Calling the doctors, expecting them to say "Please hang up, and use our online service so you don't need to wait on the phone to speak to us"

AncientSwordRage

2:39 PM

nope, different policy per receptionist maybe

@Derpy is it as bad as Fez?

Derpy

@AncientSwordRage Had to check, didn't remember that game. Never played it either, but I remember reading about it. It's the one that had puzzles based on QRCodes...

Nope, it isn't that kind of confusion.

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

@AncientSwordRage Oh, you played Fez? IIRC I got it for free - long time ago - and back when I tried it it had issues running and it wasn't on a priority list, so I didn't bother trying to figure out how to fix that.

What's it like / about / &c.?

AncientSwordRage

@vicky_molokh-unsilenceMonica not played, but heard stories

It's a 3d game, where you move the world/cube you're on to solve puzzles. I think the person who developed it was very angry about the way it was recieved?

he kept delaying it to get it just right, and was upset that people were getting impatient with him?

This was on a documentary about various games and their successes

I think he got so upset he quit and changed career

Derpy

2:56 PM

Binding of Isaac, the real confusion is understanding the plot. I mean....
On the surface, it is a tale of a boy whose mother went "crazy" and tried to sacrifice him to save him.
Then, you could say that is some sort of bashing at extreme religious positions.
Then, you notice that actually even if the mom was indeed crazy, it makes no sense that Isaac room had a whole dungeon full of monsters under it, so you start doubting that all the plot is there.
Then, the game seems to imply to the existence of a father who left but you never know why, a sister that is probably dead because of some il…

and so on..... with random curve balls like an item that kills you when used but also displays a final message "The only real ending"

AncientSwordRage

@Derpy Wow

Derpy

The game.... even if you finish it (it is a perma-death Zelda-like dungeon exploring thing)... you get an ending, then it restarts. And the more ending you unlock, the more levels it adds to the game, and the more new endings you can find

And those new ending? Sometime they seem to imply that a previous ending happened before, something that would be impossible if the game was just the retelling of a single event.

Then... remember I said the game is similar to Zelda 1?

AncientSwordRage

yeah...

Derpy

in turn, this also mean that it is a sequence of "rooms", like Zelda 1 was.

So again, you are still going from a box to the next one

AncientSwordRage

ok...

Derpy

3:07 PM

Now, it wouldn't mater by itself, but people noticed that the original final boss of the game, the "mother" (that gets replaced by something else as soon as you manage to complete the game the first time, at first by something still related to her... and then by other things that oddly relate to the protagonist) is the only boss that basically fights you from outside that box.

you are trapped in a room with doors on the four walls and you can see her watching thru those doors.

But she basically can't enter the room.

the intro of the game.... hand drawn, like it was some child sketch. The endings? Actually animated.

AncientSwordRage

that very deep

reminds me of the stanley parable

Derpy

Some say that the game is actually Isaac getting trapped in is own "mental box", because he feels remorse for a death sister and for some undisclosed reason he think it is his fault. The mother... probably never wanted to kill him. What she was trying to do was to kill "his world".... Remember the extremely religious thing? Since the game hints at the D6 being an item associated to Isaac... wasn't D&D said to promote dark magic and occultism?

like I said... it is complicated.

The only theory I made up is that a) the mother because of her belief didn't want to kill Isaac but was indeed "killing his identity", something that made him "hate" her.
b) father either died or divorced. The sister? Don't know if it even existed in the first place or is a symbol of something else (mother telling him that a female son would have been better??).
c) Isaac trapped himself in a imaginary world to escape.
d) his death... don't know if that is supposed to be an actual real world death or more of a "mental" death, meaning that his own box didn't allow him to grow.

AncientSwordRage

thats...really really deep

Derpy

yes, but nothing is explained at all.... either you pick up the hints... or there is no hand holding.

And since the game is a bit gruesome (lucky, the art style manages to make it tolerable, but as I said the monster you face are indeed scary - wouldn't play the game at all even if paid to do so if it was remade with realistic graphics) either you end up playing it anyway because it is very retro-style and Zelda like and end up noticing the weird plot in the process or I don't know..

If you are actually interested, this reddit topic I found years ago seems to indicate that the author DID have all of this in mind.

It is also interesting that the post also mentions another character from another game, called Steven. Steven is the protagonist of another game that still is about a box in some way, but he also has a way to get an "happy ending", escaping said box.

He... was added as a random boss in the Binding...

AncientSwordRage

3:28 PM

another game?

Derpy

Sorry, let me reformulate. Steven is the main character from another game that is more explicit about "escaping" from a box. He is available as a "secret random boss" to Binding of Isaac

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

@Derpy Huh, it mentions connections to Time Fcuk. I played that and IIRC it left me with some questions back then.

Derpy

the weird part is that Steven is basically a black version of Isaac. Why that is weird? Because unlocking him as a boss in BoI displays the line "Something from your future"

so again, is Steven still Isaac trying to escape from his box?

I don't know. I really don't.

AncientSwordRage

@Derpy oh an actually other game IRL

Derpy

@AncientSwordRage yep, the one @vicky mentioned just a little above.

And a last thing. The reddit post was made many years ago. The game was further updated afterward, with new endings and levels further adding to that interpretation but never actually confirming it directly.

AncientSwordRage

3:44 PM

@Derpy jeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeze

Derpy

@AncientSwordRage and... in an oddly and earie turn of event, while I was doublechecking something I said, I realized that today is the ninth anniversary of the game.... and another updated that is based on a fan made dlc was actually listed on steam today.

AncientSwordRage

@Derpy cool

Derpy

@AncientSwordRage Anyway, like some may know I generally don't play "crude" games. I made an exception for this one mainly because the gameplay is actually quite odd.

At first sight, your character controls like Link in the original Zelda game. You have bombs, you have a ranged attack that actually does look like the original sword beam and that's it.

But... the power-ups....

The power-ups make the game

AncientSwordRage

define crude?

Derpy

4:02 PM

@AncientSwordRage in a way, gore. Meaning ton of blood, and so on.

But the art style makes it bearable

AncientSwordRage

ahh ok

Derpy

you can tolerate something like this. The same thing in ultra-hd realistic art style? Worth of nightmares, no thanks.

AncientSwordRage

@Derpy ok thats fair

Derpy

anyway, like I said, what I think made the game popular was the power ups.

tons of them, never fully explained to the point that sometime you wonder what something is doing (especially for trinkets).

And they can change the way you have to play the game.

AncientSwordRage

sounds amazing

Derpy

4:09 PM

from things that replace your projectiles with totally different stuff, wings that let you move over pits, game altering mechanics....

thing like the 9 lives cat, which gives you nine lives but sets you hp to 1, items that rewind time like the Hourglass... there are many weird ones

And the best part is that some items interact with each other.

AncientSwordRage

woah

Derpy

mind you, the interactions... can also be a bad thing if you aren't paying attention or don't realize how the items will interact

Tiny Planet make your projectiles orbit around you, creating a sort of barrier.

But that alone can become useless since you then find yourself without any range.

Add something that turns your projectile into bombs and then realize those bombs will be exploding very near to you....

But suppose you also managed to grab Pyromaniac? Explosions now actually heal you.

You are a walking explosion now, and those explosions are constantly healing you.

AncientSwordRage

4:43 PM

@Derpy I have to go now, but I've really enjoyed hearing about TBOI

Derpy

@AncientSwordRage my pleasure. See you later.

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

4:55 PM

@Derpy Reminds me very much of a monster design I've seen in Doom.

Derpy

@vicky_molokh-unsilenceMonica yep, Doom design was quite disturbing at times too, but the basic graphics of the first episodes probably made thing more bearable. Don't think they could have slipped something like the hidden levels of Doom 2 in an hd game.

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

@Derpy You're referring to the secret Wolf3D level?

I don't think there's much 'slipping' required - modern incarnations of games like Doom and Wolf3D seem to openly have largely the same sort of stuff but with better graphics.

Derpy

@vicky_molokh-unsilenceMonica Well, that is Map31. Already altered in some recent re-releases by removing all the tapestry and such, turning the German soldiers into regular soldiers etc....

From that secret level you either exit the normal way, returning to the game, or you found a second secret level inside the secret level

"Map32. Grosse"

to exit that level, you have to shot four hanged "Commander Keen", a character from a previous ID Software game.

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

Weird. Didn't know that.

Derpy

Now, take in mind that Doom 2 had some weird easter eggs, most famous one being the impaled head of the main director of the game John Romero, found in a room that you can only access by a code to clip thru walls

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

5:09 PM

That one I've seen.

Derpy

But... one thing is having a face of a programmer on a pole... a little macabre but probably people won't complain....

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

The newest Doom still has some sort of fish easter egg.

Derpy

Hanged Commander Keen?

notice that Keen looks quite young? What would you make out of that easter egg if you never saw that character before?

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

Confusion.

Derpy

more like "the secret level with dead kids"

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

5:11 PM

I can get the Doomed Space Marine in Duke3D (since there's a degree of rivalry between franchises), but isn't Keen an iD brand character?

Derpy

@vicky_molokh-unsilenceMonica They had their own game director put on a stick, they probably though killing their own character was a joke too.

Certainly not the kind of joke you would see in a Nintendo game for example, but coming from ID... I am not surprised.

Screenshot for reference

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

Game director makes sense as a final boss. Keen . . . I must be missing some context that is the reason behind the making of the Easter egg.

Derpy

("spoilered" the screenshot just for added safety.)

@vicky_molokh-unsilenceMonica Look, it is still better than the hate that ran between Origins and EA games (and Bullfrog by extension)

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

Graphics-and-gore-wise, the scenes are far from the goriest stuff you can find in 2010s games. And it's not like kids being invincible in games is a universal convention. But character choice for the Doom map you pointed out is something I don't get.

@Derpy I'm not sure what is referred to. I know EA Games is often considered one of the most hated game corps, and there are certainly reasons to be angry at them (top of own list of reasons: forcing an enemy language down my throat, even though clearly the game has other languages in the files), and their Origin app was pretty bad as far as I remember my encounters with it. But you seem to be alluding to some inter-corp hatred?

Derpy

5:38 PM

@vicky_molokh-unsilenceMonica look. One thing is having kids npc in an rpg game but not giving them "god-mode" like Skyrim does. If the player isn't nice, you can say it was a case of "Videogame Cruelty Potential". In this case, the character was already hanged on a rope from the start, that had the potential to make very bad newslines for them.

When I said "the secret level with dead kids" I meant it. That was the nickname I heard back then, very few people actually recognized the character.

I wasn't one of them.

To me, that was the level with the hanged npc that kinda looked like Bart.

@vicky_molokh-unsilenceMonica Yep, there was basically a cold war between them.

@vicky_molokh-unsilenceMonica Sorry, had to look for "where" I'd posted that before. Still here?

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

@Derpy Still here, but will be unavailable in 10 minutes for about 2-4 hours.

Derpy

@vicky_molokh-unsilenceMonica Read this article when you have time. After you are done with it, if you like, I can tell you the rest of the story that is missing there (that only mentions Ultima 7.... but two more Ultima games were made after that).

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

5:55 PM

@Derpy Thanks. Anyway, we went on this long discussion of Keen, and taking a step back to the original comment on Doom and the like, I think the Keen Easter egg would be unlikely to be repeated not so much because the graphics improved, as because there wasn't (as far as I understand) anything clever or interesting about the egg, and because of a resurgence of computer-games-are-the-devil reactions (which a new dead Keen would attract).

Gore-wise, modern Doom and Wolf3D incarnations seem like they could fit into a 'like Isaac, but HD' descriptor.

Derpy

@vicky_molokh-unsilenceMonica Look, there is a game that is far worse. I heard its name once, before it was released. Seemed interesting, almost like Diablo crossed with Doom.

I watched a single trailer. Couldn't finish it. Was simply too much.

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

Oh, I'm not trying to hunt for obscure maximum-gore examples. I'm sure they exist but they are outliers. I brought up the classic series because they're very mainstream.

Derpy

I immediately removed it from my watch-list the same day I first read its name on a gaming site (seem to remind they also mentioned Devil May Cry... how wrong they were)

Later... I heard other things about the game.

Like it being so...... bad that it was censored by law request

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

Whoa. In what jurisdiction?

Derpy

With also mentioning of a threat like "you dare to release an uncensored patch, your company will be shut down"

@vicky_molokh-unsilenceMonica Don't know. I never researched more info. Just notice an headline on a gaming site, I didn't even look at the article.

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

6:02 PM

Anyway, I'll catch up later.

Derpy

You know that RPG game that you all agreed to never name?