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BESW

06:21

The Blood in the Chocolate apology is also notable as a really clear, self-aware example of why it's important to call out bigoted content: if bigoted material is given an uncritical platform, new creators will think that's how how their material should be, too.

(It's even possible that LotFP might not have been able to attract such a following itself, if the awful bits of D&D were more openly talked about--since it's in many ways just saying the quiet parts of D&D out loud...)

kviiri

07:19

@Derpy Yes and no: my recollection is that Tolkien himself didn't find an agreeable resolution to the orc origin problem and kept fluctuating between different variations.

Tolkien's problem with orcs — based on my limited understanding — was that in order to maintain the status of Eru as representing God with a capital G, no one else should be able to create life, so having them be created by Morgoth was not an origin he liked. Hence the exploration of corruption as an origin

@Derpy Similarly to this, The Lion King is very much written from the POV of the Mufasa-Simba line having the divine right.

Scar is no saint, but his crime of assassinating his brother and seizing power is a personal crime that doesn't necessarily reflect a truly villainous personality. He had pragmatic reasons to incorporate the hyenas in the coup, but he was still right in helping this oppressed species back to the society (which is an oppressive hierarchy, but so it was under Mufasa). What makes him a "villain" instead of a simply flawed revolutionary is the fact that he apparently can't do a rain dance.

BESW

@kviiri And somehow at one point he landed on "the offspring of [cw] are inherently evil and can be killed without remorse" as a viable alternative moral. [sigh] Maybe he could've just let go of that plot point instead.

kviiri

@BESW Wow, really? That's screwed up

BESW

@kviiri Yeah, that's one of the origins he had for the... Uruk-Hai, I think it was?

@kviiri The "rain dance" thing is a very specific callback to divine right: the body of the king and the body of the land are mutual synecdoches. Without a Good King, you cannot have Good Land.

kviiri

07:36

@BESW Yup!

BESW

See also: the Shakespearean character Simba most closely resembles isn't Hamlet, it's Prince Hal. Both are unfit rulers tempted to neglect their kingly duties in favor of material excess by a jolly fat aesthete, and both are redeemed by recalling their duties to the land and rejecting the self-indulgent habits of their companion.

kviiri

Thesis, antithesis, synthesis

BESW

@kviiri I think Who Fears Death would be good related reading for a study of sexual violence in fantasy fiction, but it's been too harrowing for me to get very far in.

kviiri

@BESW Thanks, I'll try to see if I can find it

Derpy

@kviiri I don't know if there are other version of "The Lion King" other than the Disney one... but IMHO that is 30% usual Disney's "idea reuse" (what? we never heard about "Kimba the white lion") and the rest.... usual Disney's "bad guy" - basically a tale of "how to usurp the throne" with animals

BESW

07:47

@kviiri The main character is on a revenge quest to kill the sorcerer who [cw] in a fictional version of the Darfur conflict in which [cw]. She is an outcast because of this, unwelcome in either side of the conflict that she embodies.

Derpy

What I mean is that I never got the idea that Disney really wanted to give Scar some sort of "he wanted to help the oppressed" trait

Quite the opposite - the hyenas are portrayed as stupid, violent and so on....

BESW

@Derpy That's kind of kviiri's point, I think.

kviiri

@Derpy Nah, of course he doesn't particularly want to do that. What I mean is that he wants to usurp the throne, but that does not a villain make, in itself.

@Derpy That's what the Mufasa establishment wants you to believe

Adeptus

Mufasa is voiced by James Earl Jones. Darth Vader is voiced by James Earl Jones. QED.

BESW

Of course, Disney's Lion King is also a great example of Disney taking a marginalized culture's rich history and Anglicizing it into unrecognizable pablum.

kviiri

08:01

@BESW Aye

Derpy

Sorry, maybe I wasn't clear enough. What I mean is that Scar - or Hercules's Hades if you prefer - seems to be portrayed as an "evil character" from the start. He wants powers for himself, isn't afraid to kill relatives to gain that power and once he obtained it... he uses it just for himself and the gain of his followers / subordinates. Disney clearly didn't plan to give the story a "this is told from the winner point of view" or "this is Mufasa version of the tale".
You can say that you can see the story as "told from the winner perspective" anyway, but at that point... many tales can be…

kviiri

@Derpy What I'm saying is, his "evilness" is a rather informed quality in light of his actual actions. He kills his brother and tries to kill Simba, they're of course reprehensible deeds, but the film also implicitly blames him for mismanagement for there being a drought.

That's what I mean on a personal level evil and downright villainy. He is not portrayed as any more tyrannic than Mufasa was, but somehow is still given the tyrant's treatment.

Derpy

@kviiri doesn't the film blame him for doing nothing to help the other animals to survive the drought? I seem to remember that near the ending it is implied that he doesn't care since he and the hyenas keep most of the resources to themselves while the other animals are dying. Don't really know what he could have done other than "move to another place" but....

it is the usual mess you get when you have a king which subject are also a source of food...

A plot built as if the "Lion" king should be the one that is responsible for the wellness of the other animals he eats for lunch.

kviiri

08:17

@Derpy What's a lion going to do, build aqueducts?

Simba doesn't do squat either, the rain just magically comes when he ousts Scar.

Derpy

@kviiri That's what I mean, it isn't like a lion has many options to fight a drought. Yet the film implies that his "fault" is that he doesn't help the other animals to survive thru the drought.

Basically, the Lion should be friend with the gazelle.

"Hi gazelle, how are you doing today? Need anything? Can I help you? Oh, and btw, are you free next Monday? I will be doing an hunting trip and was wondering if you minded if we kill you next"

1 hour later…

Derpy

09:28

That said, since we are at it.

Did any of you by chance see the second Maleficent movie?

Never watched it yet myself, but was wondering if they managed to throw into trash anything the first movie made.

Derpy

09:43

Also, read the two part article/blog about Orcs @BESW posted before. I can agree with it, but to be honest there is a line that seemed strange.

> You can see D&D’s influence in Japanese comics like Magic Knight Rayearth

I... personally don't see much D&D influence in Rayearth.

That manga plot is basically built into game troopes, but I don't see a lot of D&D influence in it. Unless you mean things like classes, weapon levels and such that I wouldn't really call exclusive to D&D.

Rayearth is more of a Magical Girl manga, with Fantasy&Videogames thrown on it.

10 hours later…