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10:00 PM
@trogdor Which, the new post, or the original FAQ?
the new post Brug linked
@brug Oh, more talk, but still refusing to do the necessary immediate actions to cease ongoing harm.
@vicky_molokh What would those actions be at this point? Because I can tell you now, reinstating Monica wouldn't cease the ongoing harm. Her dismissal might have triggered this whole mess, but reinstating her just rectifies her specific grievance with the company.
@trogdor huh
Wait, you mean the new post by Cesar? Yeah, that I could see
at no point does he make it clear what he is responding to
10:09 PM
I'm very much like wanting tape "Let deeds, not words, be your adorning" to everyone's faces at this point
I'm tired of posts where they're like "we are gonna fix this and we are sorry" okay fine but do the things
@Xirema 1. Replace the article with an apology in the press. 2. Stop holding onto her diamond. 3. Reveal to her the materials used in her firing. 4. Roll back the changes that are causing the community to riot. 5. Roll back to a communicative mode of interaction between community and corp. 6. Cease doing other things that the community pointed out, like those scam ads and the other things implemented over the couple of years.
@Ash I'm not sure I disagree, but what deeds do you need to see?
@brug Anything? Apologies are just words on top of words right now
@vicky_molokh So points 5 & 6 are definitely not immediately actionable in any meaningful sense. Those are more like long-term fixes. 4 isn't going to happen: these changes to the CoC are kind of necessary, and I've not been able to find a credible account from any members of the LGBT community that they specifically object to the changes being made to the CoC.
1 2 & 3 are definitely things they could do, but like I said, they don't really fix the ongoing harm.
10:15 PM
Yeah, 4 can't happen. I mean I guess it could, but it would pretty much mean I'd have to stop using the network, because as it is I carry this low level unease if I emerge out of a few select corners.
@Xirema Pulling down defamatory texts certainly fixes the ongoing harm of more and more people reading them and getting a bad image at Monica who could neither face her accusations nor even know what exactly to dispute in her defence.
@Xirema I did have one person who espoused gender critical screed at me (which I have a screenshot of) later pretend they were one of us and try to object to the changes from a false sense of perspective. I called them out and it got ugly.
But the fact that they didn't even try is more telling than the fact that fixes will be imperfect.
@Xirema To expand on this: if there was a post to the effect of "here's why the language proposed in the CoC changes will hurt Trans users, and how it could be improved", I'd probably take seriously the idea that there might be a problem with the CoC changes themselves.
@brug i’m Holding up fine. Sorry for a slow response
10:16 PM
(Preferably written by a fellow trans user)
@Gwideon Nothing to be sorry about. I'm glad you are holding up.
Also note that I'm not saying the CoC shouldn't be updated, but it should be done in a way accountable to the community it's trying to govern. And the first step to that is to roll back the corporate-overlord-decree incident.
But so far, it seems like the problems with the CoC changes are pretty exclusive to how SE chose to roll them out, not to what those changes actually are.
@Xirema Other than all the "compelled speech" and "OMG BUT NEOPRONOUNS" bits....
@vicky_molokh you could keep the CoC and just ask the community what changes they’d like to see
10:18 PM
@vicky_molokh And if the community votes to throw trans users to the wolves (which it will), what then?
@Xirema indeed
If we roll it back, and I get to have more "my gender/identity is legitimate and not up for debate" discussions all over hte network....that's....not great
@Gwideon That could perhaps work, though would be worse procedurally.
honestly even the old policy could've covered doing it right, should they have chosen to enforce and educate users accordingly
the bottom line is "don't be a jerk"
@vicky_molokh but it means trans users wouldn’t be thrown under the bus
10:21 PM
@AndrasDeak That would've been nice, but I do feel that the CoC is attempting to solve an issue. because, well, it's one I've had in various places on SE.
If they roll it back I am deleting my account
(I don't really want to get into my specific stuff, it's not necessary, but there have been a number of times I've felt actively unsafe as a enby human on the network)
I honestly think an open forum for suggesting changes to the CoC is needed. but make it clear that it’s not being rolled back just changed to accommodate community concerns
Q: A Pronominal Proposal

Gareth McCaughanThe recent Code of Conduct change and, more specifically, the associated FAQ have not gone down well. (For the avoidance of doubt, linking to those does not constitute endorsement.) So of course I wonder whether any policies on this contentious issue would be more broadly acceptable to the commu...

I don't agree that a completely open forum is a good idea
10:23 PM
There sort of is one
answer that question
@Ash I'm not saying it doesn't attempt to solve it. But as I've said here and there I tend to think that the more detailed a set of rules are, the easier it is to violate them in good faith and to weasel out of them in bad faith. I know that Be Nice especially didn't cut it for (among other users, I imagine) LGBTQ+ users, but being overly specific has its own pitfalls
@AndrasDeak there needs to be a lot more than "Be nice", thats weaselly words
I know
it's just harder to do a detailed CoC right
That doesn't mean stop trying
10:26 PM
I don't think the current incarnation is all that bad, honestly
I honestly just want the transphobic stuff to stop
I think too many things happened at once though for it to be a calm discussion
@Gwideon amen, dear friend. Amen.
@Ash yeah, and I didn't mean to imply that
@Gwideon If what is being commented in this room and elsewhere is to be considered statistically representative of the overall situation, it seems like the new CoC increased any attacks/tension/etc., because now a group of people who could be perceived as 'live and let live' folks are now perceived as sympathisers of the corporate overlords.
10:27 PM
which is sad
@vicky_molokh I'm not sure what you mean
(Also, will be logging off any minute, and thus will not reply.)
@vicky_molokh that's not really due to the CoC, but to the FAQ complete with all the baggage
and by baggage I mean the dumpster fire that preceded it
the noble goal of the company has irrevocably intertwined with general opinion about the company, which is less than flattering
Because SE made a move to protect the LGBTQ+ Community people figured that SE cared more about us than them so they attacked us hoping it would some how hurt SE.
We were made into scape goats essentially
Which is.... sad
in this situation the inevitable low-key and flat-out transphobia/enbyphobia isn't suppressed by voices of decency, but rather it's a catalyser to the hate and frustration to so many people angry at the company (who don't know better)
10:32 PM
@Ash I mean the rules you favour are a fruit of a tainted tree of the corporate overlords - because of the way they were enacted through unilateral corporate overlordship as yet another step of the corp forsaking the community it was built on. The only way to cleanse them is to take a step back and do things the right way. The goals may be noble, but the means must not be evil too.
Also yeah, CoC in tandem with the FAQ and the demonstrative case of how it works (i.e. opaquely and unaccountably and unprocedurally) with Monica.
@vicky_molokh I object to your suggestion that the fact that it came from high above it's necessarily bad or harmful. Have you seen the community, the one which you would ask to formulate a rule set on the matter?
Sorry i’ll Shut up
@Gwideon at the risk of sounding redundant: you really don't have to
@vicky_molokh live and let live as long as you keep it a secret and don't complain about the occasional bigotted remark you mean?
Telling trans users that putting a policy in place to protect us is the reason we are being targetted for hate, when the fact is that we are being targetted for hate because the people who don't want to respect us are trying to shut down that policy is overtly hurtful.
It is also a mischaracterization of the circumstances. It is also transference of blame. The people to blame are the bigots.
Um apparently the pseudo code mentioned in the post by someone is real. That kinda scares me
It really really scares me
The fact that someone took the time to write out that pseudo code really freaking scares me.
10:38 PM
what code?
Well it’s just pseudo code so it’s not real code yet
Q: I am non-binary - recent events have made SE less safe for me (and other members of the LGBTQ community)

someoneI am a member of the network and posting anonymously for my safety. CW: References to and examples of hate speech I don't want to put blame anywhere, but unfortunately due to the huge turmoil created by the recent CoC changes, several right-wing websites have started reporting and thus directed...

I guess the pseudo-code for crawling profiles looking for pronouns
It’s mentioned here
@Gwideon Breathe. In, out, slowly. In for a count of 4, hold for a count of 4, out for a count of 4. It's okay to be scared, but if this is causing high levels of panic, then you need to find a safe place to breathe and decompress.
Why does someone think they should do that? Why?
10:41 PM
@Gwideon I wish I had an answer, but I am not sure knowing the why of it would make it hurt any less.
I’m scared someone will actually make that because it’s honestly not hard to make.
@Gwideon The easiest step to protecting yourself is to remove pronouns from your profile if they're present, to start. It sucks that once again the burden of protecting comes on the shoulders of the people who need the protecting, but it's something, I guess. Even if it does feel like people shoving us back into closets.
@Gwideon no, it's not
just as an aside into this discussion, the closest thing to an answer to that question I've heard of is a book called The Authoritarian Dynamic
(Friedersdorf summarizes the main thesis here, btw, if you want the TL;DR version)
I’m honestly not sure what to do. Um if reports start coming up about this stuff I um may have to leave.
10:49 PM
@Gwideon If you have to do that, to feel safe, know that you will be missed, but we will understand that you are doing what is best and safest for you.
I don’t want to
But um I don’t want to be doxxed either
It scares me
((for what it's worth all of SE including chat is fully public, so you should at all times be conducting your presence in a way that you're happy with if it's immortalized on the internet))
I know this is not helping your anxiety, but this is something you have to keep in mind
(it's what we all have to keep in mind)
Yeah I know. Um it’s why I keep most personal details ambiguous
But um this isn’t the only site I use this username on
Sorry i’m Probably scared over nothing
offers hug
11:04 PM
accepts hug
I shouldn’t have to feel this afraid
I don’t want to feel this afraid
@Gwideon you definitely should not
I’m sorry just give me a moment
curls into the corner
11:21 PM
Take all the moments you need. offers soft blankets and other comfort items
takes blankets and wraps them around myself
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