Not a bar, but plays one on TV

trogdor

00:05

@Derpy the short version of the explanation for this is that heterosexual doesn't have a long history of being used as a slur, homosexual, while it might have otherwise been a great clinical word for a specific sexual orientation,..... unfortunately has a long history at least in the U.S of being used practically as a swear word

@BESW also a fair way of putting it

Derpy

08:23

@trogdor As I said, I have close to no idea of which word has been misused and how...

so, just figure my face when - for example - I read about the Barbie Oreo incident.

trogdor

yeah that's fair

I probably missed plenty myself honestly, but I just wanted to clarify to you something that was obvious to me

IE Heterosexual isn't deemed a bad word because,.... it describes the "majority" of people or the "normal" people or the,... well people who have the most power really

Homosexual however,.... just the way it was used for such a long time, probably still even really

Derpy

that said, I think that the "creepiest" thing in that question (aside from the parallelism fail BESW already mentioned) is the lack of a "prefer to not answer" option, instead replaced by a choice that in contest appears like a lame pun (asexual).

trogdor

the difference is literally in the use of the words, and the history of that use

@Derpy yeah prefer to not answer is something I would always advocate for those kinds of questions

Derpy

@trogdor Yep, I get it now. Oddly, I think that were I live the opposite may be true. People here try to use the equivalent of "homosexual" because many think it carries a less negative meaning than "gay" (by which I mean that the common perception is that the second word has been misused more than the first)

trogdor

gay has still,... also been misused

heck it's been changed from it's meaning of "happy" to homosexual and has been similarly abused as the former word

both words have been

I am not even really sure which might have been more

Derpy

09:12

@trogdor it is a mess, indeed. Anyway, back to the original context of my questioning, I fear this confusion and poor question writing in the survey still springs from a "forced" approach to be more inclusive/welcoming.

trogdor

09:51

yeah

that could be a problem

Derpy

10:30

@trogdor wouldn't want to bore you out with free rants, but ... that's the view I got from all the recent events.

People forced into corrective actions to make the site more welcoming because of bad publicity on Twitter and other media, hurt felling on both sides (staff and end users), now escalated in an "us VS them" conflict.

With people moderating stuff out of fear?

I really don't know.

PS: obviously all the above counts as IMHO.

That said when words like "dirty people (referring to the staff)" or "lionizing users" get used, you know that the community is compromised (btw, both are close-to-real examples - but please don't ask me for more details since I don't want to add fuel to old discussions)

trogdor

mm

I'm not privy to everything that went on but I saw rumblings in the RPG chat

Derpy

@trogdor let's just say that probably you saw only part of the full picture.

By which I don't mean I am probably even close to having the full image

Derpy

10:56

The few incidents I saw did left me with the weird felling that the staff too is "angry" with part of the user base, but that is as far as it gets.

trogdor

11:27

@Derpy I fully expect that is the case

vicky_molokh

11:58

@doppelgreener Still trying to backtrack while also staying close to the more recent posts, :49496842, this looks like another example of different people putting a different amount of value on maintaining immersion. At least it seems to be a potentially significant contributing factor (we're not mind readers to know for sure, of course).

Sdjz

@vicky_molokh small note, you need to start the message with the ":49496842" for it to get linked properly

BESW

12:10

@vicky_molokh You are under no obligation to respond to all points.

doppelgreener

@vicky_molokh I'm not sure it's like that. See, I have a similar reputation to my friend: in various contexts (not just games) I tend to be the person to speak up when something seems wrong to me. Very often it's not just me: other people also wanted things to be different, but nobody actually felt like they could speak up. After I do, we talk, things change, people are happier.

I don't think that's a situation of "the players value their immersion over their comfort", but "the players are uncomfortable, would like things to be different, but genuinely do not feel able to say anything to request a change."

Their immersion might already be out the window at that point. I know I don't feel super immersed when I'm having to attack a swarm of bats in a cave for 6 rounds when the more interesting fight is happening over there with undead orcs and other characters need our help but we're stuck on "wave away some bats" duty.

vicky_molokh

@doppelgreener Unable, or unwilling? I have an ambivalent reputation with 'speaking up'. E.g. I complained loudly about a bunch of things despite being a newcomer on the stack. But I also try to maintain harmony on a session and speak up afterwards, when it doesn't clash with immersion.

doppelgreener

@vicky_molokh Both?

BESW

Yup! Too often I've seen (and been part of) the "If nobody's complaining then it must be fine (and I'm the one who's wrong)" problem. I'm very grateful to what Greener's contributed to our gaming group specifically and my social toolbox in general.

doppelgreener

Feeling like a situation does not permit you to speak up, and so not doing so, makes you both unable and unwilling. When another person speaks up, showing the situation will permit you to speak up, people become able and willing to also speak up.

BESW

12:20

And I hope I will never prioritize a game's ambience over a friend's comfort again.

vicky_molokh

@doppelgreener I'm not sure how to reply, fearing my replies will veer into what either looks like or is semantics. But I'm not sure 'unable' is often truly applicable in these cases.

doppelgreener

Yeah I have a feeling this conversation could dive into semantics of what "able" means (of course you're physically capable of speech and forming your thoughts into words here) but that's not the sense of "able" I mean. Many people are "unable" to do public speaking, or feel "unable" to talk back to their parents, regardless of willingness or desire.

Work with me here that I'm trying to use the best word I know for this approximate thing.

vicky_molokh

(I'm unable to voice my dissatisfaction about Skype - it lacks a field where to write my complaint and thus nobody can read my thoughts. I am unwilling to voice my dissatisfaction in certain circles because I value harmony within them more than some minor dissatisfaction.)

goodguy5

@vicky_molokh everyone knows, don't worry.

doppelgreener

@vicky_molokh Right, that's a semantic conversation I'd prefer we avoid.

BESW

12:26

vicky_molokh

So stepping back, I think it's important to recognise that it's trade-off, a choice. People have priorities and agency, and those priorities differ between people.

trogdor

@doppelgreener oh man I don't know anyone who has trouble with either of those things no way

definitely not me, no way

BESW

@vicky_molokh We are talking about social pressures and limits on perspective and understanding that obscure choices and prevent conscious decisions.

doppelgreener

@BESW The thing with that 13th Age game was I did not have a conscious experience of thinking through the OOC option: “Oh, I have a problem with that and I could speak up OOC here. I could raise objections, and request different handling. Let me evaluate internally whether I will or won't, some pros and cons, whether our session will be better for it, whether we should just keep going and I can mention it later or leave it be.” That happens in my Fate games. It did not happen in 13th Age.

BESW

I can be uncomfortable with a thing that's happening and technically physically capable of saying so, yet be unable to speak about it because... I think the discomfort is normal and there's no point mentioning it; I think the discomfort is my fault and speaking will not help; I have not developed the self-awareness to separate that discomfort from other inputs; I believe that speaking up will make me a target; I believe I will be ignored; you get the picture.

doppelgreener

12:33

Completely out of the gate my brain just unconsciously either never brought up that option or dismissed it before I could consider it consciously.

That's not a matter of willingness. I couldn't do it at all, let alone consider whether I was willing to do it. It was not an option on the table for me. If someone else had spoken up, I could've gone "Oh! I could do that! Yes, I will voice my OOC concerns. Why didn't I think of doing that sooner." I did not make any conscious trade-off or choice, I just didn't and couldn't.

vicky_molokh

@BESW That indeed looks like a description of some possible trade-offs that are being made in such a choice. E.g. between the chance of changing things and the hassle of wasting effort, among other things.

BESW

@doppelgreener I lost a ten-year friendship when someone refused to believe that I could have this experience about particular kinds of choices.

vicky_molokh

There's also another layer of trade-offs:
The trade-off between maintaining immersion (in the mind), and being distracted on such OOC thoughts about whether something is worth bringing up.

BESW

@vicky_molokh Then you are not hearing what we're saying.

vicky_molokh

@BESW Or we may be looking at things from very different angles and thus I'm not understanding what you're saying.

BESW

12:36

You already acknowledged that your perspective is probably excessively pedantic and that we are trying to explain something more nuanced than that. So either drop it and accept we're talking about something you don't get, or try to find some way to read what we're saying beyond what you've already said you know is not what we mean.

Repeating the perspective you'd already said you know is not what we mean... is not helpful.

I'm calling it out very clearly because this is a pattern I've observed in conversations here, where people tell you clearly that you're not responding to what they're saying but you insist on talking as if that's what they meant. By pointing it out I hope you can address it, because otherwise you will face a great deal of frustration as people stop assuming you're conversing in good faith.

doppelgreener

To be able to make a choice first requires being able to mentally process such a choice. Surely you have experienced social situations where, in hindsight, you realised there was an option you hadn't considered, or you thought "why didn't I think of this option sooner"? This option was not something you'd previously chosen not to do for trade-offs — it was simply an option completely unavailable to you earlier.
In my 13th Age game my choice to speak up was unavailable. I think some players consciously choose not to speak up, but for others, the choice is completely unavailable until someone…

Rubiksmoose

Good...morning?

doppelgreener

@Rubiksmoose Good morning o/

Rubiksmoose

:)

KorvinStarmast

@doppelgreener Great example, have run into similar things. Thanks for sharing that experience so thoroughly.

doppelgreener

12:42

@KorvinStarmast You're welcome.

In Fate games I tend to be in director stance, so I am already in a position where the option is available to speak up OOC when I'm unsatisfied or unhappy or uncomfortable with something happening.

BESW

"I wish I'd had a button to press that would've solved that problem."
"Why didn't you press the button next to you? It solves that problem."
"...that was a button?"

doppelgreener

@BESW Yeah. Not even "I didn't know the button would do that", but "there was a button there?" or "that thing there was a button?".

BESW

Often social situations feel like those badly-designed puzzle video games where you have to drag the mouse over the whole screen to find the thing you need to click.

Rubiksmoose

@BESW don't you dare talk down about Monkey Island ;)

doppelgreener

@Rubiksmoose [cough] your comparison :P

KorvinStarmast

12:45

@doppelgreener My experience with most groups is that immersion is something that comes and goes in a session, depending on the mood people get into together. Something as simple as lighting in the room, or the music in the background can have an effect on that.

BESW

@Rubiksmoose Look out, Graham! It's a poiiiiiisonous snake!

Rubiksmoose

(sorry I know I am adding levity to a serious conversation, it was my intention, but not to downplay the seriousness of the topic)

doppelgreener

@Rubiksmoose It's alright from my POV at least.

KorvinStarmast

gaaaaah, there's that RL again, unimmersing ....

BESW

It's extra bad when you take a social situation and add a game that has Strict Rules About How Things Are Done And You Can Ruin Peoples' Fun By Doing It Wrong, and the solution you need isn't in the rules.

Rubiksmoose

12:46

@doppelgreener Cool cool, just wanted to make sure my intention was clear. Text-based mediums and communication being vague and all that.

BESW

@Rubiksmoose Levity received.

vicky_molokh

@doppelgreener I have an impression that there are two things tackled in that question, and am trying to formulate a reply that addresses both.

doppelgreener

Well I mean, the question itself is mostly rhetorical. I think that's probably a universal human truism that we've all experienced that.

Afk a bit!

Rubiksmoose

I'm not strictly sure this is where the topic is at this point, but I often have the issue as the one who speaks up that I have to walk a fine line between recognizing when people are unhappy and would be made worse by me speaking up and trying to correct it and when bringing it up and stopping things will help. Sometimes the issue is finding the proper time and way to bring it up and/or work towards a solution.

vicky_molokh

@doppelgreener There were, though I think a large part of them go along the lines of: id-of-vicky prioritises saving up ego-of-vicky's thinking resources, and chooses not pass the decision up to the ego-of-vicky (IOW, a subconscious trade-off/choice). Others would be cases of me being my usual socially-inept-self and choosing (both subconsciously and consciously) to analyse a problem but failing to find a satisfactory solution. A variation would be finding a solution, but finding it not good enough.

@Rubiksmoose You seem to be seeing the nuances of such situations.

BESW

12:53

@Rubiksmoose Very much this. I find that more and more I err on whatever will best preserve friendships and human dignity, regardless of its impact on the game. Sometimes this means setting aside out-of-game time with an individual or the whole group, often it means hitting pause and at least checking IF we need to talk about a thing mid-game. (I don't think the sidetrack into the social interaction equivalent of "can you lie to yourself" is going to be very productive.)

Rubiksmoose

@vicky_molokh The thing is, my focus is always on the person and what is best for them, when someone is unhappy, the game/immersion/releated trappings immediately takes a back seat.

BESW

Safe and happy.

vicky_molokh

As far as I see, there are people who feel unhappy and/or undignified when an issue is left for handling in the aftermath instead of right in the middle of events, and others who feel unhappy and/or undignified when harmony (friendship, immersion, flow etc.) is being compromised in order to bring up an issue right now. (In simplified words, of course.)

Rubiksmoose

That's the goal. I find the best best way is to find ways to enable players to speak up. Including by encouraging them to increase their own perception of self-worth and helping avoid any issues they may have with social anxiety (to give a few examples). But I have found it is important to recognize that this in never 100% successful and that it is a slow and hard process for people and that sometimes, they just don't have the option of speaking up even though it would be better for them.

doppelgreener

@Rubiksmoose Absolutely. A lot of thought for me goes into whether, when, how, with whom, in what setting, to speak up.

Rubiksmoose

13:00

And by "the best way" I mean an incredibly difficult way that changes day-to-day person-to-person.

doppelgreener

But that's provided the choice to speak up occurs to me as available. I can't do any of that if the choice is unavailable to me from not ever occurring to me, which in many settings, it does not.

Rubiksmoose

Absolutely.

BESW

@Rubiksmoose One very interesting experience I've had is watching how a group's gestalt preferences for handling things changes with relatively minor changes to the group's composition.

And the medium of the game influences it, too. All-punchspace games have very different preferences to all-digital games, and to mixed games.

And of course, the nature and severity of the problem is a major factor in the best way for that group to resolve it.

Rubiksmoose

@BESW ooo that must be very interesting. I haven't really had that experience at all since after an initial pruning of people not interested in D&D after trying it that left the group, my group has stayed entirely consistent.

vicky_molokh

@BESW I'm very curious: which ways f2f leans and which ways digital leans?

BESW

13:06

@Rubiksmoose Yeah, and it's not predictable in terms of macro trends. When Troggy skips a week there's a big shift, and there's also a shift when he VOIPs in from home rather than coming to my place. But a VOIPing Troggy gives a different shift than a VOIPing Greener.

trogdor

huh

Rubiksmoose

@vicky_molokh Sure, people's feelings and goals are often at odds at the table and away from it. The key is how your table prioritizes the issues and what it values more. What you decide for that changes entirely the emotional and inter-personal environment of the table.

trogdor

@BESW I haven't even noticed this

BESW

Heck, when we were doing beta play of Fate Core in the Stack chat, the whole dynamic shifted dramatically toward being more talkative and open.... just by adding a script that showed who was typing.

Colin Gross

@BESW punchspace?

Rubiksmoose

13:09

@BESW That is a very interesting observation. I hadn't even considered that you meant noticing things even when a person is absent or ... differently present (lol). I'll try paying attention next time we have an absence and see if I notice anything.

trogdor

@ColinGross in the same room talking with people

BESW

Jan 22 '14 at 14:36, by BESW

IRL, The Place Where You Can Be Punched, Outside the Tubes, The Big Bright.

trogdor

rather than,... what we are all doing now

online XD

Colin Gross

@trogdor Why "punch" ?

vicky_molokh

@Rubiksmoose I'm just getting this vibe, I'm not sure how to explain it. That when I talk of people whose feelings and goals are in line with placing high value on immersion, there's some sort of wish present that they wouldn't. I'm not sure how to phrase it without exaggerating the vibe's strength, and I don't think I can point to a single quote that would explain why I'm getting this broad vibe. It's something I noticed across many chats and many people.

trogdor

13:10

@ColinGross because you can punch them,,..... I dunno XD

Rubiksmoose

[punches trogdor's avatar] yup. it's just not the same.

BESW

Sep 17 '14 at 7:25, by BESW

"Meatspace" is. "Punchspace" implies.

trogdor

@Rubiksmoose yep cause I am not nearly as mad at you XP

BESW

@Rubiksmoose The Medium is the Massage.

Rubiksmoose

@vicky_molokh I think that vibe is largely correct. I think many of the people here in this discussion explicitly value the mental health and well-being of the players at the table over immersion. I can (and have said) explicitly that this is true for me. And I believe doing so creates a better, more fun environment for everyone. Sure immersion people have to sacrifice some of their "fun" but since we care for each other as people (and not just means to an end) we value their well-being more ...

and that trade-off is well worth it in terms of how it enables players to be comfortable happy and healthy at the table where we just want everyone to have fun.

BESW

13:14

@Rubiksmoose It's been my sad experience that extreme values of game immersion often come at the expense of valuing the safety and happiness of the participants. I'm willing to believe that this is not a necessary correlation, but it's been a pattern in my time gaming. I hope I will never prioritize a game's ambience over a friend's comfort again.

vicky_molokh

@Rubiksmoose And this phrase is probably a good indicator of this vibe. The implication that people who value friendship and harmony are mentally unhealthy or not valuing mental health and well-being, rather than valuing a different side of it.

BESW

That said, there are versions of immersion (see Greener's personal definition above) which I've found to be compatible with prioritizing health and happiness and even help sustain it! Just... the kind of immersion that people mean when they say they're really into immersive games isn't, in my experience, that.

vicky_molokh

@vicky_molokh (It actually reminds me of the GNS implications that people who play traditional roleplaying games are 'literally brain damaged'. I still find it weird that such a view exists at face value.)

Rubiksmoose

@vicky_molokh But...I never said that? Friendship and harmony are both great values to have at a table. In fact there are always many competing goals. I never said anybody was mentally unhealthy that values things otherwise and if I ever made that implication I appologize.

BESW

@Rubiksmoose I'm confused as well, it's not just you.

vicky_molokh

13:19

@Rubiksmoose I'll try to explain.

doppelgreener

@vicky_molokh That is not the implication. We are not implying people who value friendship and harmony are mentally unhealthy. You seem to have the connection that "maintain immersion" = "value friendship and harmony", and not doing one means not doing the other. It is because I value my friendship with my fellow players, and it is because I value harmony with them, that I speak up when something is wrong.

vicky_molokh

OK, piece by piece explanations:

BESW

As this is rapidly turning into the same conversation as one which someone asked to have moved to the Not A Bar last time, I'm gonna start moving it there now.

vicky_molokh

> people here in this discussion explicitly value the mental health and well-being of the players at the table over immersion

This does imply a correlation of gaming style and mental health. Not explicit, but implied. I'm not offended, I just find it . . . biased is the word, I guess.

Rubiksmoose

@vicky_molokh First thing to realize is that I am categorizing my views on the matter (and lumping in a couple other here that I think feel the same way, just assume I am referring just to me for simplicity)

BESW

13:23

← 108 messages moved from RPG General Chat

Colin Gross

:49498329 Seems like a fine statement. Well being of players > game. Hard to disagree with that for everything from field sports to table top to electronic games.

That's a neat trick

BESW

← 1 message moved from RPG General Chat

Rubiksmoose

:49498300 ^

Colin Gross

@BESW you're a regular magician. I like this trick of moving chat content around.

vicky_molokh

> Friendship and harmony are both great values to have at a table.

On the value of friendship and harmony: You (general you) have a friend. But the friend has an annoying trait. Maybe a neural tic that you don't like. Maybe a personal bias you disagree strongly with. Maybe something else that you don't like. But you don't bring it up. Because this is your friend and you cherish harmony. Same can apply to a circle of friends enjoying a joint activity.

BESW

13:25

@ColinGross Room owner privilege! (Also elected-diamond moderators can do it in any room, but anybody who gets assigned ownership of a specific room and then they can do that sort of curation work.)

Colin Gross

@vicky_molokh I think it might characterize someone who values game > well being of players as pathological in some sense. Like that movie about football with the evil coach. Or that movie about hockey with the evil coach... or movies with evil coaches.

@vicky_molokh That sounds fine. Part an parcel of hanging out in a group.

vicky_molokh

@ColinGross That seems to assume that the two are wholly separable. When many people's well-being is intertwined with pursuit of a hobby and even specific subsets of a hobby.

@ColinGross Well, and for some people, going suddenly OOC raising an issue mid-session can be very similar to, say, bringing up a friend's smoking habit that annoys you (general you).

Colin Gross

@vicky_molokh Sure. And when the hobby goes to far and is harmful, you have a problem. That problem is person being harmed.

@vicky_molokh I usually wait for reaction rolls or death saves for that one. /S

BESW

@vicky_molokh That's fine. But you're setting yourself up for a false equivalency of "annoying" and "harmful," and tripping towards GSF 2 and 5.

Colin Gross

@vicky_molokh Would be kind of weird to go bowling and then have someone start quizzing you about your insistence that middle endian dates are fine.

Rubiksmoose

13:28

@vicky_molokh absolutely, there is a time and place for everything. Minor ticks you find annoying about people aren't really going to be helpful to bring up at a table in the middle of a game. Unless of course that person is doing something that is actually casuing you harm (eg triggering you or causing trauma) then it becomes an issue that is of elevated importance.

Colin Gross

@BESW gross square footage?

BESW

Geek Social Fallacies.

Rubiksmoose

@ColinGross Geek social falacies I believe

BESW

@Rubiksmoose Right; some things should get brought up right away, others can wait. Which is which depends on the group and context.

vicky_molokh

@ColinGross And that seems to be an example of an attitude I'm seeing lately. 'Oh no, you're so passionate about your hobby, this is Not Normal, tone it down like the people I consider normal'. The desire to standardise player's interests and preferences and sources of happiness seems like an odd thing coming from a group which started out from not fitting in.

Colin Gross

13:31

@BESW ISO 8601 or death. All the time. /S

doppelgreener

← 1 message moved from RPG General Chat

Rubiksmoose

@vicky_molokh I feel like this is a gross mischaracterisation of what Colin just said.

BESW

@vicky_molokh I... have no idea where this came from. It seems completely unrelated to the conversation at hand.

vicky_molokh

As I mentioned, I'm talking about a broad trend, not embodied by a single quote or even person.

Colin Gross

@vicky_molokh Interesting. I can imagine that happening. My aunt once wrote a strongly worded letter to my mother about my D&D habit and devil worship. She was very concerned.

BESW

13:33

Then you're talking about something nobody here can respond to because you're speaking from context we don't have.

vicky_molokh

@BESW 'And when the hobby goes to far and is harmful'

BESW

You're not having a conversation with us. You're having a conversation at us.

Colin Gross

@vicky_molokh Oh yeah.. definitely blew out my knee wrestling. Also, know a bunch of people that took a lot of their sports too far and got hurt.

"Play through the pain" is a terrible plan.

Rubiksmoose

To be clear, none of us are saying that. Go forth. Be passionate. As passionate as you want. I spend ungodly amount of time on this site talking about my hobby. You can too. We aren't talking about that.

BESW

@vicky_molokh So far as I can tell you're equating "our hobbies should not harm others" with "we should not be passionate about our hobbies" and that's a leap nobody here can follow.

vicky_molokh

13:34

@ColinGross And yet it's those people's life and their choice, yes?

So yes, side effects and trauma happen, but that is the cost of freedom.

Colin Gross

@BESW Well, there's a level of passion that abuts obsessive behavior to the detriment of other more important things.

vicky_molokh

I mean I hurt my back through sports too, and it's not quite OK yet.

BESW

@ColinGross And that would be harmful. But equating all "don't harm" with "don't be passionate" is nonsense.

vicky_molokh

But does that mean I shouldn't've pole vaulted back in youth?

Colin Gross

@vicky_molokh Yeah. Kinda? I don't know how much freedom people really have when they're young and in group sports and the community is all piled on. There's a lot of inertia and pressure to overcome.

BESW

13:36

And now we're in "the price of freedom" rhetoric. I'm out, I've got better things to do with my evening.

Rubiksmoose

Let us not diverge into the very poor metaphor from mental illness to physical injury. They are very different and incredibly diverging from what this conversation is prportedly about.

BESW

This is no longer the conversation I was interested in having. Again.

Colin Gross

@vicky_molokh Definitely shouldn't do it if your rotator cuff is bothering you that day.

BESW

Youse guys can ping me or a mod if action is needed, as usual.

doppelgreener

I am also going to exit this conversation, it's gone way away from what we were talking about.

Colin Gross

13:38

Huh. What were we talking about?

vicky_molokh

Immersion.

Rubiksmoose

Same. One last thing though @vicky_molokh: you just are not understanding our points here. Every time we make a point you misinterpret it. I'm really trying to make it clear what our point is and making every effort to understand yours. I'm not saying it is malicious, but what you think we are saying is not it.

doppelgreener

@ColinGross First discussing actor and director roleplaying stances regarding immersion, then the matter of players speaking up when uncomfortable, partly in relation to those stances and to immersion.

vicky_molokh

@Rubiksmoose I don't know how to fix that. Thank you for your patience. I certainly have been tempted many times to give up, given that I have trouble getting my stance across, and/or understanding stances of other people.

Colin Gross

So break immersion and handle an issue or push to later time and address it then is the discussion about immersion?

Rubiksmoose

13:42

@vicky_molokh Yeah I'm honestly not sure where the breakdown is either. I'm angry or upset I just don't know how to continue talking about this when our conversations always seem to be running on perpendicular railroad tracks constantly getting further from what the other is talking about.

Colin Gross

Both strategies seem fine. I use a hammer for nails and a screwdriver for screws. I think there's probably good discussion to be had about when to address immediately and when to address later.

Rubiksmoose

There's just some key misunderstanding(s) on one or both sides that we just cannot identify and resolve or communicate.

Colin Gross

@Rubiksmoose You're saying we need to go further? How do you feel about animals at the table? /S

doppelgreener

@vicky_molokh For my part, there are just equivalences you're drawing that I don't think we're saying. For example, "speak up" and "value friendship and harmony" are not mutually exclusive (I believe everyone here values friendship and harmony with their friends); nobody has said being passionate about the hobby is bad (I believe everyone here is passionate about this hobby).

vicky_molokh

@Rubiksmoose I'm fully accepting of the likelihood that I'm the one misunderstanding. That doesn't mean I see a way to fix it, despite decades of trying.

Rubiksmoose

13:44

@ColinGross I'm strongly in favor of gaming cats.

BESW

@ColinGross Originally, it was about being new to Fate and trying to understand how some of its philosophies and mechanics intersect to create specific gameplay effects.

doppelgreener

I also believe all of us value the wellbeing and mental health of our fellow players in general, but take different actions based on valuing that wellbeing.

Colin Gross

@BESW This is the game where the rules are like lego bricks? I think that's how @doppelgreener put it.

doppelgreener

@ColinGross Yep.

Rubiksmoose

@ColinGross other chat room (I think)

Colin Gross

13:46

And I do know something about lego bricks. Don't step on them. It's like 1d4 piercing and 1d6 psychic damage.

vicky_molokh

@ColinGross I think for some groups one strategy may be preferable over the other, and for some a mixture may be appropriate. I'm just . . . well, all the messages above.

BESW

@vicky_molokh Having spent a half-dozen conversations and at least twelve hours on this, I can say that a common thread is that you zero in on specific words or phrases and focus on them without taking into account their context in the conversation, and refuse/are unable to modify your focus despite being told point-blank that you're focused on a tangential or trivial part of the main subject.

Colin Gross

@vicky_molokh Yeah. I can see some personalities need to address things immediately and others would rather address things later. Just another personality difference that needs to be navigated by friends. Helpful to be able to identify and describe it.

vicky_molokh

@BESW That's most likely an accurate assessment of why I'm having trouble understanding many things.

doppelgreener

@ColinGross BESW describes it as being like a toolbox, which is also a good analogy.

Rubiksmoose

13:50

@ColinGross I would hesitate to pin this to personalities however. People can have many different issues and preference can and does change based on context and issue on when and where is best suited for tackling it.

BESW

@vicky_molokh For example, we had a conversation in which Rubiks offered a faulty example of a technique I suggested, and I linked the original technique discussion but you spent the entire conversation explaining how the example was flawed... which no one argued with... and never engaged with the technique itself which everyone else was trying to talk about. We could either ignore you entirely or derail the entire conversation.

Colin Gross

@Rubiksmoose oh yeah. and those issues change over time. Nobody would have batted an eye in 1996 when someone made a gay joke. Now days, that's an immediate stop.

BESW

Our discussion about the Luxton technique and X-card was derailed by your insistence on taking a very narrow reading of the X-card and acting as if everything else we were talking about was exactly the same... in a conversation that was trying to be ABOUT looking for diverse tools that filled different functions.

Rubiksmoose

Yeah its best to assume always that you are dealing with moving targets when dealing with issues like this.

BESW

@ColinGross Well. Nobody who was straight and managed to avoid understanding how damaging that sort of thing was. Which was a lot of people, yeah, but let's not go crazy.

Derpy

13:55

@Rubiksmoose Cats of Catthulhu?

Colin Gross

@BESW Sure. And that issue has changed for a lot of people over time. Also how it was addressed. Hopefully it'll be a non issue in the future, and we'll have a new thing to improve on.

Rubiksmoose

@Derpy Nekonomikon XD

Colin Gross

gotta run. Lovely chatting with you all as usual.

BESW

ttfn

@Rubiksmoose If you like cats, puns, and the Mythos, Catthulhu is a perfect intersection of your interests. For everyone else, it's much less whelming.

Rubiksmoose

@vicky_molokh which is all to say that we are trying to help you identify where you may be missing things to help you improve your communication if you want. We want to be able to talk about things with you, but do so in a productive manner. So we are just trying to help you improve.

So I hope you take this feedback in that light.

And, of course, I am always open to feedback as well if you think of ways I can improve.

BESW

13:58

@Rubiksmoose More googly eyes.

Rubiksmoose

@BESW Everything can be improved by googly eyes. [eyes my avatar]

BESW

Rubiksmoose

@BESW XD

doppelgreener

My reaction to that image is remarkably like that image.

Rubiksmoose

hahaha

doppelgreener

14:01

@BESW Man, even the 90s were still like that: I remember seeing a stand-up by a famous and well-liked comedian where someone being gay was the punchline, and things like them wanting to flirt with another man was the thing to laugh at. And the audience laughed! And that was only twenty years ago, wow.

I had to stop watching.

Derpy

what can I say, still trying to get my hoof on a copy of Tails of Equestria.
Probably I should just Amazon it

(did i just use Amazon as a verb???)

@doppelgreener ye are lucky, I could say the same ... replacing the stand up with a pretty famous "cabaret" show here and 90s with last month.

BESW

The youtube series Pop Culture Detective has several videos dissecting the prevalence of similar tropes which can be so ubiquitous as to be invisible unless you're forced to notice by being affected by it.

vicky_molokh

14:21

@Rubiksmoose Yeah, I do think you're trying to fix a misunderstanding. When I said I'm thankful for your patience, I meant it. (The times when I manage to achieve understanding with people despite not being in agreements are really good, but it is something I have a hard time achieving.)

BESW

Disagreement is fine. Truth arises from the clash of differing opinions. Talking about the same thing over and over while being told directly that it's totally unlike what everyone else is talking about is... something else and I'm glad you're willing to work on it.

Derpy

@BESW oh, thanks, you reminded me I wanted to check his video about Big Bang Theory

BESW

@Derpy He's got two! They're both pretty good.

Derpy

@BESW out of curiosity, does he addresses the apparent focus change in later seasons?

BESW

Not that I recall; his focus topics are pretty much ubiquitous for the whole show.

Derpy

14:26

@BESW I suspect he may have stopped at the "first" seasons.

To be clear, I meant this (please, see the whole conversation, quoting only some pieces for sake of brevity)

Aug 27 '18 at 11:41, by Derpy

at the start of the show you had a group of nerds VS the world.

Aug 27 '18 at 11:43, by Derpy

The "nerds" were actually "the dreamers" and the rest of the world didn't seem smarter or "normal" or "the correct ones". Actually, in many episodes the opposite almost seemed true - the weird nerds were actually better than the "bowtie" ones

Aug 27 '18 at 11:47, by Derpy

It is pretty evident that at some point the focus shifted. It was no more about showing that a group of different people can still be good. Nope, it turned into a "coming of age" thing

Aug 27 '18 at 11:48, by Derpy

So basically now the message is "group of adult-kids slowly growing up and turning into valuable members of society"

BTW, since then I have come to think that probably the "different focus" in the first seasons may just have me projecting my hopes on the show - what I hoped they would be about. And then starting to realize it wasn't the case.

vicky_molokh

@BESW I'm actually worried some people may not believe that I'm trying to find a way to understand where the misunderstandings originate and work around them, given how much I tend to hit a wall and thus produce the same/similar results over and over again over the decades.

(Then again, I've been told it used to be worse.)

BESW

@vicky_molokh After our first interaction or two I stopped responding to you for several weeks, but didn't block because as room owner I think it's irresponsible to stop seeing what's happening in the room. I saw effort being made, so I re-engaged.

But I don't intend to indulge further side-tracks into pedantry. This is a place where I want to be happy and productive, not re-examine the same tired subject over and over. I'm gonna keep talking about the stuff I find useful or not at all, and as always anyone can ask for any conversation to be moved to the Not A Bar at any time.

vicky_molokh

@BESW Fair warning: effort is most likely to be insufficient to make a tangible difference in the near future, so if you end up deciding it's better to just go our separate ways, I won't hold a grudge against you. (Though I'd like to be aware of such a decision if that is a reasonable thing to want.)

BESW

14:46

Good to know. I will engage as my time and energy permit.

vicky_molokh

I too find these things to be requiring expending mental energy, so I understand the willingness to limit the 'dosage' of such engagements.

doppelgreener

I'll be assuming good faith effort on your part. Let us know if there's anything you recognise that we can do to assist you with working on this.

Derpy

@BESW stop pretending requiring time. We all know by now you are a team of different people each specialized in one specific field. :P

BESW

@Derpy The shift I noticed most was that at first the humor derived from Penny's discomfort at finding that she was the awkward outsider in a functional community she couldn't navigate, when she was used to the situation being reversed with people like "the guys." But then over time the joke framing reversed so that the humor is derived from Penny being socially competent and "the guys" being awkward outsiders incapable of navigating the social landscape.

Not that the show was ever really NOT "hah hah they play D&D" but at first that wasn't really the punchline. The punchline was that Penny didn't know how to deal with them playing D&D; over the first couple seasons that changed so that them simply mentioning D&D became the punchline.

Derpy

@BESW That's also very true, yep, but that wasn't what I meant. Let me check if I can find that post, just a second...

BESW

14:56

No, yeah, your posts above were pretty clear but not a shift I'd thought about much.

Long-running sitcoms with threadbare premises always shift themes over time.

in RPG General Chat, Jan 1 '16 at 13:58, by Joninean

@BESW And you're timeless, always lurking?

Derpy

@BESW yep, I know it is a pretty overused joke, but I kinda like it :P

At the same time, found.

Dec 9 '15 at 10:44, by Derpy

I have lost any hope about the plot after Sheldon decides to go on a sabbatical journey at the end of season 8 to see if he can change his OCD behaviors.

Dec 9 '15 at 10:45, by Derpy

That, after basically have been put in the condition to decide between changing from one day to the next or leaving HIS home since his "friend", who is supposedly just a "renter" there, decided that he should be changing his life style....

BESW

yes, well, the other other other problem with TBBT is that Sheldon's neuroatypicality is... not funny because it's too generic and slippery to be derived from a place of knowing what's actually funny about being NAT. (cf Contrapoint's recent "The Darkness" video re: humor)

goodguy5

15:13

who has summoned me here?

and for what nefarious purpose

doppelgreener

@goodguy5 one of your comments got moved, hence the automatic invite

But, also, there is cake. Good timing. Would you like some?

goodguy5

nah, just had a cookie. I'm all set

doppelgreener

excellent

Derpy

@doppelgreener there were muffins. Before I spotted them ^_^'

doppelgreener

@Derpy the casualties of war ..............

Derpy

15:26

@doppelgreener Ehy! I am not that rude!

I kinda left something for others too. The sprinkles? ^_^'

doppelgreener

16:23

Those can be useful!

Fairy bread ahoy!

(... those sprinkles were clean, right?)

user15026

Sprinkle bread! Yay! I popped back in at the perfect moment.

user15026

@BESW nods in neuroatypical

doppelgreener

@BESW My understanding is Sheldon's jokes are basically: “Hey! Look at this guy be neuroatypical! Isn't that funny? What a riot.” That and the standard “look at this guy be a nerd!” jokes, and the occasional smack talk that actually fits neither offensive category.

user15026

@doppelgreener Pretty much, yes. (I end up watching the show sometimes at my parents as it is a thing they enjoy. So I have more knowledge of it than I'd strictly like)

doppelgreener

16:47

I'm comparing this extremely judgementally to all of the Community episodes I saw focused on Abed Nadir's neuroatypicality, wherein it always served as a vessel for a story which in turn contained the actual jokes, but those jokes were not at his expense, and his neuroatypicality was never treated as a joke.

user15026

@doppelgreener Yes, exactly - it can be done.

doppelgreener

17:42

New Zealand has had a white nationalist terrorist shooting on two Mosques.

I feel this twitter thread is important to share:

While you're still horrified by the mosque shooting, I'm going to share something I don't normally share. Because tomorrow, it won't be so fresh, and that feeling you have right now, where even a small, kindhearted country like NZ isn't safe won't be filling your heart the 1/

Tweeted by GoodwinVianna on March 15, 2019 at 4:32 AM

Transcript for

Not a bar, but plays one on TV