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21:44
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A: Is it reasonable to have concerns about the recognition of Russian degrees?

BenUnfortunately yes, it is possible we might rise to that level of hysterical jingoism Based on the historically high quality of Russian mathematicians, I would think that a Russian degree in mathematics would generally be of high quality (depending on which university it is). As other commentator...

"As to your concern that the degree might be seen negatively in the West due to anti-Russian sentiment, unfortunately it does indeed appear that this level of psychotic jingoism could occur." The fact of the matter is that in the current situation, going to Russia is an immoral act. Imposing costs on that choice is neither "psychotic" nor "jingoism". And frankly, using a well-defined psychiatric condition as a generic slur without any regard for its actual meaning is offensive on several levels, as is pretending that "jingoism" includes any condemnation of a country.
The cited examples are most regrettable. I just want to point out that the "groups" that are acting this way are small: individuals, small businesses, grandstanding US republican senators, and the largest being the Cardiff Philharmonic. The larger the "group", the more likely you'll find people with anti-Russian sentiment, but the less likely for the group as a whole to irrationally punish Russians. Academia is enormous, diverse, and usually resistant to this kind of discrimination. That said, academia often has to bend to the whims of governments, so anything is possible.
Please note that the Cardiff Philharmonic story has quite some nuance; the music in the planned program was about (a Russian) war including musical representations of war. The idea that such music takes a different meaning when Russia is actively waging a war against an ally... shouldn't be so hard to understand. How this would relate to jingoism (Jingoism is nationalism in the form of aggressive and proactive foreign policy, such as a country's advocacy for the use of threats or actual force, as opposed to peaceful relations)... I have no idea.
Ben
Ben
@Accumulation: All of the instances cited in the answer involve adverse treatment of people who have not set foot in Russia since the war started. Moreover, whatever one's thoughts on the Russian Govt, it is an extreme position to suggest that merely doing a mathematics degree at a Russian university is "immoral". That is indeed jingoism, and it goes well beyond condemnation of Govt actions within a country.
And please, spare me the confected outrage at the non-clinical use of the term "psychotic" --- such words are frequently used in an informal sense in ordinary discourse in the English language.
Near where I live in Germany, they removed an exhibit about volcanoes in Kamchatka (this was part of a series of exhibits on locations at or near the 50th parallel north).
Ben
Ben
21:44
@gerrit: Interesting example; I have added it to the post; if you can supply further details (who did what) I will update.
@Ben Unfortunately, all I have is my personal observation. I have seen no references to it in the local press. It seems this happened entirely quietly.
"such words are frequently used in an informal sense" -- true, but why did you choose to use them if not in attempt to invalidate the mostly justified and balanced reaction of Western countries by focusing on a few cherry-picked examples and framing them as an evidence of some "mental disease" of your political opponent?
Ben
Ben
@Dmitry: Do you honestly think that treating a mathematics degree adversely, simply because it was earned in the same country as a government prosecuting a war, is a justified and balanced reaction? Presumably this would imply that no-one should go to Russia, and no-one in Russia should do anything. If you honestly do think this then let me know and I will happily remove the "psychotic" appelation. (And again, when used in a non-clinical sense, which is obviously is, this is not an accusation of a mental disease; it is a criticism of the appalling lack of empathy involved.)
Can you provide an evidence of someone treating a mathematics degree adversely? I sincerely doubt this.
Why
Why
@Ben, It seems academicians are inviting another war (in education and research) by discriminating and limiting the boundaries. It is not the job of academicians. Instead, we should form unity in all academicians including Russian academicians to pressurize their leaders
21:44
I'm not sure "psychotic jingoism" is a fair way to describe the potential issues here. While I would hope academics would appreciate that people with Russian degrees need not support the Russian government, relevant to the OP is people who decide to go to Russia now for a degree (and contrasting that situation with a Russian in Russia who may have less choice). As Jack's and Dmitry's answers point out, doing so could be seen as approval or at least apathy towards the invasion of Ukraine. That feeling need not be related to any reaction to Russian products or long-dead Russian authors.
Psychotic jingoism is the right phrase. NYC Met and La Scala canceled Netrebko, their best singer. FIDE banned GM Karyakin, one of the best GMs on the planet, for 6 months. I can easily imagine Columbia, NYU, UC Berkeley to stop admitting PhD students from Russia.
This sounds almost like when places in the US started referring to "French fries" as "Freedom fries", though France's supposed "offense" was nowhere near what Russia has been doing recently (and French fries were never really French to begin with). Are we going to see boycotts on Russian dressing? Will bars stop serving White Russians? (I know Russian vodka has already been embargoed, but you can get vodka from other places.)
More nuance to the Cardiff Philharmonic case, in addition to what @DavidMulder said. First, the "1812 Overture" involves cannon fire. Second, the Philharmonic stated (according to The Guardian) that "a member of the orchestra has family directly involved in the Ukraine situation and we are trying to respect that situation during the immediate term. There were also two military themed pieces as part of the programme that we felt were particularly inappropriate at this time". It is plausible that the concern was primarily for the well-being of the musician, not for the public perception.
@DarrelHoffman Karyakin was banned from representing FIDE for his public support of the war in Ukraine. How one can say this is "almost similar" to banning Russian-themed cocktails or food items --- I can only wonder.
@DmitrySavostyanov There's a difference between banning people for stating public opinions (e.g. Karyakin) and banning things just because they happen to be Russian (e.g. Tchaikovsky) or even just have "Russian" in the name (e.g. salad dressing). One is a political statement, while the other is just being petty and ignorant.
21:44
@DarrelHoffman There is a difference, sure. And because there is a difference, saying that one these things is "almost like" the other is a huge overstatement. Also, 1812 Overture was taken off show not because Tchaikovsky was Russian, but because this piece is very clearly war-themed, and staging war-themed plays during a war is... a bit insensitive, would you agree?
Ben
Ben
Re the supposed nuance of the Cardiff Philharmonic case, I would be more inclined to agree that this is nuanced (and not primarily about the country of origin of Tchaikovsky) if it was accompanied by some broader cultural push to cancel all displays of warlike activity ---e.g., if we are cancelling cannon fire on the basis that it is a reminder of war, then why not also cancel movies, plys, etc., with shooting in them. I see no action by the cultural gatekeepers that suggests any broad-based cancellation of displays of warlike behaviour unless they feature Russians.
"All of the instances cited in the answer involve adverse treatment of people who have not set foot in Russia since the war started." We are discussing someone getting a degree in Russia, which absolutely does involve someone setting foot in Russia since the war started, and my objection was to you using the term "psychotic jingoism" to refer to that issue. I find your attempt to obfuscate the issue dishonest. "Moreover, whatever one's thoughts on the Russian Govt, it is an extreme position to suggest that merely doing a mathematics degree at a Russian university is "immoral"." No, it's not.
"That is indeed jingoism" It is no such thing. What definition of "jingoism" are you using? "it goes well beyond condemnation of Govt actions within a country." No, it doesn't. The actions of the Russia govt are so egregious that it is immoral to go to Russia for a degree. "And please, spare me the confected outrage" Accusing me of bad faith is quite uncivil. "such words are frequently used in an informal sense" Doesn't make it right.
"Do you honestly think that treating a mathematics degree adversely, simply because it was earned in the same country as a government prosecuting a war, is a justified and balanced reaction?" Russia is not merely "prosecuting a war". Given Russia's actions, there absolutely is some level of adverse treatment of degrees that is appropriate.
"Presumably this would imply that no-one should go to Russia" Not without a very good reason, no, they shouldn't. "no-one in Russia should do anything." Anyone in Russia who can get out, and doesn't, and isn't staying with the intent of opposing the government, is indeed acting immorally. "it is a criticism of the appalling lack of empathy involved" Besides the inappropriateness of using "psychotic" this way, you are the one expressing a lack of empathy. The people in Ukraine being killed take precedence over the convenience of some college student.
Too much of this answer is credulously repeated tabloid level nonsense, the Cardiff Philharmonic being the clearest example, so while the general idea is valid the reliance on misleading examples earns a -1
@markvs The idea that it's "psychotic jingoism" to impose consequences on celebrating murder is absurd.
Ben
Ben
@Accumulation: So in your mind "getting a mathematics degree" is equivalent to "celebrating murder". Sigh.
21:44
@Acccumulation maybe not Jingoism, but it is hypocritical to call the average Russian not being involved in their country's government while actively starting a man-hunt to every single Russian in sight
@Ben Your argument is too simplistic and completely ignores the nuances of this very difficult situation. The 1812 Overture is not just "something with guns". This is a piece about victory of Russian army over Napoleon's. It is a hymn to Russian imperialistic ambition. Russia is currently killing Ukrainian people because of Putin's imperialistic ambitions. In this context, comparing 1812 Overture to "a movie with shooting" is a bit ridiculous.
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Ben
Ben
@Dmitry: Napoleon was the aggressor in that case (and the one exercising imperialistic ambitions) so surely a song that celebrates the Russian defence in that war is ipso facto a hymn to the successful defence against imperial ambition, not a hymn to imperialistic ambition. What was cancelled was a song celebrating the successful defence against a territorial invasion, simply because it involved a (dead) Russian. If we are going to exercise nuance, let's at least keep track of the history of these battles and not represent them as the opposite of what they were.
@Acccumulation; An average Russian does not study math at a University. As I said the number of academic people supporting the war is less than 50%.
@Ben: Both Russia and Napoleon's France had clear imperialistic ambitions back then. You are right that Napoleon was an aggressor. Still, 1812 Overture is all about a triumph of Russian army. Playing this piece in our current situation would be rightfully perceived as a celebration of Russian imperialistic ambitions in 2022.
Ben
Ben
@Dmitry: Nonsense --- if it has anything to say about the present day it would rightfully operate as a warning against imperialistic ambitions and a celebration of defence against invasion. You grudgingly concede that Napoleon was the aggressor, but make no change in your inference about the meaning of the song.
21:44
May I remind you all that for some people, just getting a chance to study in Moscow/ Petersburg is life changing. I do know people that planned their life around it, forced themselves to learn Russian and English while not having enough to eat. That there is a war with Ukraine is a very, very distressing situation, but why should their lives be ruined too?
@Ben You don't really know what the songs in 1812 Oratory are about, do you? God, save the Tsar! really, really is not a warning against imperialistic ambitions.
@Ben There are many beautiful Ukrainian songs about freedom, which can be much more appropriate if someone wants to celebrate victory of defence against invasion in the current context.
Ben
Ben
22:32
@Dmitry: Are you sure you aren't conflating the 1812 Overture with the Russian national anthem at that time (written by Zhukovsky)? The lyrics you quote appear to be from the anthem. My understanding is the the lyrics of the overture include, "Grant victory o'er our treacherous and cruel enemies, And to our land bring peace. ... O mighty Lord hear our prayer and save our people"
22:50
@Ben Your statement does not contradict mine --- 1812 Overture is a major piece and it contains several themes each with its own lyrics. You should probably listen it, perhaps with subtitles.
Ben
Ben
@Dmitry: I'll need the subtitles. ; )

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