lɪŋˈgwɪstɪks

Kamil S.

00:01

It wasn't huge.

And the times were different. I went there in 1996, which is just 7 years after communism.

Cerberus

My cohort was about 100 students.

Kamil S.

You had a 100 students in your class?

Cerberus

They were split into four classes.

Kamil S.

Oh, I get it. I think I had 30 people in my class.

Cerberus

So if 50 of them picked German, we had two German classes.

Kamil S.

00:04

Alright, I think I get it now:

Cerberus

If only 5 picked German, there'd be one German class with 5 people...

Kamil S.

the system is different.

Cerberus

But German was compulsory in years 2–4 I think.

School systems are so often incomparable.

Kamil S.

You're in a different geographical and political situation.

Russian can be pretty useful in our case, and besides it's much easier to learn for us.

Cerberus

Yeah I understand.

But German would seem quite useful too...

Kamil S.

00:06

Haha, right :)

I think I know what the difference is, but to make sure:

did you have all your classes with the same group of people?

Cerberus

As a junior (years 1–3), yes; as a senior (4–6), no.

Kamil S.

Right. Only now did I realize how inflexible our system is.

Cerberus

Because only as a senior did we get to pick the subjects we wanted.

Hmm but you got to pick subjects too?

Kamil S.

No, we don't pick our subjects. Well, maybe we do now, I'm not sure. We didn't when I graduated.

We had these profiles.

So I had not only more maths, but also at a higher level than people from e.g. the biology-chemistry profile.

But it was all set, and the groups where never mixed between classes.

Say each year a hundred pupils come.

Cerberus

Hmm I see.

Kamil S.

00:11

In the Netherlands, you can offer them 10 languages and have groups of ten people on average.

In Poland, you have 30 pupils in a class, and if you offer them 10 languages, you'll end up with 3 people groups, which is very expensive.

Cerberus

I think our current system is somewhat like that too, although they have little more choice, and math at the two technical profiles (there are four) is at the same level, while it is different / at a lower level in the two non-technical profiles.

@KamilS Hmm yes, I understand.

So why not mix people from different profiles?

Kamil S.

I'd say your system is probably better.

Let me put it this way: have you ever been to a communist country?

Cerberus

I think our old system (in which I graduated) was better.

Kamil S.

Haha :)

Cerberus

@KamilS Russia.

Kamil S.

00:13

Russia, fine. Did you speak to people much?

Cerberus

@KamilS Hehe, but I really think so: as a senior, we were free to pick any 7 or more subjects we chose. There were three conditions: at least 1 classical language, at least one modern foreign language, and Dutch.

@KamilS Not very much: we were just tourists in St. Petersburg, hehe.

But our guide was Russian, and we got to meet some people.

Kamil S.

Right. Communism is a completely different mentality. This takes very long to change.

I'll give you an example

My mother works in a library. In the early years of capitalism, a group of EU officers came to investigate and advice.

Some of it was bureaucratic rubbish, but mostly it was good advice.

Of that, a half was not doable because we didn't have the money (which they didn't understand, btw), and the other half the library staff did not understand.

As a result, absolutely nothing changed then, and it is only in the last few years, that they're beginning to introduce these changes.

A shift from communism to capitalism is an enormous enterprise on all levels of activity.

Among others, there's plenty. plenty of solutions which seem obvious to you but to us are or not long ago they were novelty. This takes getting used to.

Cerberus

@KamilS Hmm but I'm not sure what you describe here is that typical for communism: the same thing happens here all the time!

Kamil S.

No!

Don't take my hopes away from me!

Cerberus

@KamilS OK I guess it depends on the solution; but bureaucracy can be quite strong here too!

@KamilS Okay, I suppose it is reasonable to say that communism is generally more bureaucratic than our mixture of capitalism and socialism.

But it also greatly depends on the place.

Kamil S.

00:24

It's bureacratic in a different way.

Cerberus

The government is much slower to change than, say, an art gallery.

Kamil S.

Heh, nice comparison.

Ok, we're drifting away from the point. I was trying to say that our system was much more rigid in my times, and this is the explanation why I only had two languages to choose from, apart from English.

But yes, I know, you (the Dutch) are quite unhappy with EU bureacracy.

We're not happy with it, either. In communism, we thought everything would be perfect the day after the damned system would go away. The grass is always greener…

Cerberus

@KamilS Hmm yeah OK, understood.

@KamilS Nahh we're not: our own bureaucracy is worse.

Kamil S.

:D

Cerberus

There will always be bureaucracy.

Kamil S.

00:29

So it seems.

Cerberus

It's usually not that much of a problem: it also hinders harmful change.

Kamil S.

Does the government often change to the opposite in the Netherlands?

Cerberus

As in which parties make up government? Sort of, but we always have broad coalitions, with 3+ parties.

So there will always be centrist parties in it too.

How about you?

Tusk seems quite moderate?

Kamil S.

Ah, so it's slow but generally in a reasonable direction for you, I guess?

Cerberus

Yes, more or less, although sometimes certain non-centrist parties get to dominate the coalition. Now the coalition is centre-right, but they have extra-governmental support from the extreme right (they are supported by a party who does not provide any ministers), so it is quite rightist now.

Kamil S.

00:36

Wow, you know the name! I am impressed :) Yes, he's pretty good. Effectively, we have two big parties at the moment. One of them are morons and should be flown to the moon or further if possible, and the others are Tusk and friends, and they're pretty reasonable.

Cerberus

Of course I know Tusk!

His party is called Burger-platform in Dutch.

What is it in Polish?

Kamil S.

Platforma Obywatelska

Are you interested in politics?

Cerberus

I know the Kazinski (?) brothers were the opposition, but one died.

@KamilS Sure, why not?

Kamil S.

Kaczyński, yes. He's from the Morons, Idiots and Nationalists party.

Cerberus

Hehe yes, I know (that they're idiots).

There's also what we call the "League of Polish Families" or something? But I think they lost badly in the last elections?

@KamilS So what does Obywatelska mean, literally?

Kamil S.

00:40

Oh dear, you really are good. The League are a splinter from PIS (Morons, …) and they got 2% or some such, well below the threshold (5%).

No, no, sorry, I confused the names. They're not a splinter, they a separate party. Very conservative, ultra-catholic and nationalist.

And apart from that one time when PIS won for two years, they never made it above the threshold.

Cerberus

Yeah, they seemed very silly.

So what other parties are there now?

Kamil S.

Obywatelska means 'civic', it's an adjective from obywatel 'citizen'.

Cerberus

Ah OK.

Then Burgerplatform is a good translation.

Kamil S.

The two big ones are PO (Civic Platform, the good), PIS (the bad),

Cerberus

Haha.

Kamil S.

00:42

lol

Cerberus

I'm glad you provide a nuanced view.

Kamil S.

lol

Cerberus

No other parties?

Communists?

Kamil S.

typing

Cerberus

Haha.

Kamil S.

00:44

Ruch Palikota (the funny guys, but I sort of like them, they're the ones with anonymous masks in the parliament, maybe you've heard; got 10%)

PSL (Peasants' Party; quite reasonable, in coallition with PO; got around 7%)

and SLD (Socialist; quite reasonable (not communist); got a little less than PSL, around 6%)

+ splinters from PIS, altogether around 5% of the parliament

Cerberus

@KamilS Ohh I didn't know they were so big in Poland!

So I think there was also some party that was allied to our Wilders?

Kamil S.

the socialists?

Cerberus

They were going to set up a European xenophobic party together, but it never really worked out or something.

Kamil S.

well, they actually have a quite reasonable programme

Cerberus

@KamilS No, far-right.

Kamil S.

00:48

well, the really far right is very small

but right far too far for me (PIS) is at around 30%

Cerberus

I think PIS would be far right here.

Kamil S.

maybe that's the picture you're getting, but i don't think so

they're not like Wilders; that would be the League

they're not that far far-right

Cerberus

Our far right consists of extreme Calvinists (they don't work or play or watch sports on Sindays: 1 %), Evangelicals (3 %), and populist right-wingers (15 %).

@KamilS Yeah the problem is that they are not really comparable.

Wilders is in favour of gay marriage and abortion, but hates Muslims.

The Evangelicals, on the other hand, sort of like Muslims.

Kamil S.

yep, that's not comparable

Cerberus

I guess it's because your Right is religious?

Ours is mostly irreligious (Wilders).

Kamil S.

00:52

PiS is very catholic (so, no gay marriage) and nationalist, but not in a xenophobic sense

Cerberus

So they aren't harping on immigration?

Kamil S.

we have a huge percentage of people who claim to be believers

Cerberus

How many?

Kamil S.

no, they don't seem to mind immigration, or at least don't talk much about it

Cerberus

And what does "claiming" entail?

Kamil S.

00:53

i was coming to that

Cerberus

@KamilS I guess that's a Western-European thing anyway.

Hehe.

Kamil S.

we even have a term for that, literally 'believing – not practicing'

they're people who say they are catholic, but all they do that has anything to do with religion,

is to observe christmas and easter, and go to church on sunday every two weeks, two months or half a year

and it's not even a religious thing, but more of a traditional ceremony

Cerberus

Right, they are culturally catholic.

Kamil S.

yes, you could say that

Cerberus

We have many of those too, probably in an even weaker incarnation.

Most of them are OK with gay marriage.

Kamil S.

00:57

in Poland the majority would in all likelihood be against

and PiS plays on that

Cerberus

Right.

And abortion?

We sent you this boat...

Kamil S.

an abortion boat?

damn, too bad i live 800 km from the sea ;)

Cerberus

Yup.

Haha.

Well, we didn't actually send it, but I think it was a Dutch organisation.

Kamil S.

for abortion, there's a big difference between generations

my grandparents are against, my parents are divided, and my generation is generally for

actually, i think the majority of my generation might support gay marriage as well

Cerberus

Women on Waves

Women on Waves (WoW) is a Dutch pro-choice non-profit organization created in 1999 by Dutch physician Rebecca Gomperts, in order to bring reproductive health services, particularly non-surgical abortion services, to women in countries with restrictive abortion laws. Other services offered by WoW include contraception and reproductive counseling. Services are provided on a commissioned ship that contains a specially constructed mobile clinic. When WoW visits a country, women make appointments, and are taken on board the ship. The ship then sails out to international waters (where Dutch laws ...

> WoW sailed the Langenort to Poland in 2003.[4] Poland's official polling company, Centrum Badania Opinii Spolecznej, found that prior to WoW's visit, 44% of the population supported the liberalization of abortions laws, and that after the visit, the percentage rose to 56%.[5]

Kamil S.

01:03

I don't know what the current numbers are. Currently, our political scene is mostly the fight between PO – PiS. The latest hot topic is raising the retirement age.

The Netherlands are always presented here as the model 'country of freedom', with gay marriage, abortion, marijuana and what not, and depending on who says that it will be in good or bad light.

I wonder, do you know every European prime minister and the biggest parties by name?

Cerberus

@KamilS Ehmm no.

Especially not those of the smaller countries.

The big ones, yes.

And the ones who are often in the news, like Tadic from Serbia.

@KamilS I guess we are socially progressive in certain areas. But we're now pretty rightist as regards immigration, law enforcement, and paedophilia.

@KamilS Yeah I think the retirement age is a hot topic all across Europe.

What is it now?

Kamil S.

I suppose we haven't reached these topics yet. We're still catching up ;)

I think it's 60 for women and 65 for men. They'll be upping it to 67 for both now.

Cerberus

Ah OK.

Kamil S.

NL?

Cerberus

It's 65 for both sexes here, but I think we are in some kind of process to raise it towards 66 or 67.

But that is not actually the "retirement" age: it is just the government pension, which is not a lot anyway.

Kamil S.

01:17

And the opposition protests?

Cerberus

Nearly everyone is in some private or semi-private pension fund that the government cannot touch.

@KamilS Hmm not specifically: the opposition is divided, and so is the coalition.

Kamil S.

So not that much of a difference?

Cerberus

I guess poor people will be the ones most affected.

Kamil S.

That's not good.

Cerberus

Because some have only the state pension, which is I think € 800 or so.

But I guess even the poorest people will have something on top of that.

Kamil S.

01:20

We have plenty of early retirement plans for different professions, like teachers, miners, policemen and so on, and they're going to reduce that, and PiS is trying to win their disappointment for themselves.

Cerberus

Hmm it is about € 780 / month for married people, € 1050 for singles.

@KamilS Oh, ah, yes, we heard similar things about Greece, where some pregnant women were able to retire.

At 40 or so.

Kamil S.

In our case it's a leftover from communism.

Cerberus

Hmm I see.

Kamil S.

Our additional problem is that we've only had private funds for some 15 years, which is definitely not enough for those who are approaching their retirement now.

Cerberus

So at what age would a teacher be able to retire, typically?

@KamilS Hmm no, that's not nearly enough...so the state will have to pay?

Kamil S.

01:24

That's why the upping will take some 15 or so years. Private funds couldn't have existed in communism.

My mother in law is a teacher, and she took some extra early retirement plan (which means she'll be getting a lower retirement) although she's only 57, I think.

But mostly, they work up to 60 (most teachers are women).

Cerberus

Hmm that's not extremely young.

Kamil S.

Well, our age pyramid is not so great, either.

@Cerberus You know what, it's 25 past two here, and I believe we're the same time zone. It's been great talking to you and I sure hope I'll catch you here again some time soon, but now sorry, but I really should go to bed.

Cerberus

Hehe.

@KamilS Very wise.

Kamil S.

Good night and see you later! :)

Cerberus

I'll be going to bed soon too. Goodnight!

Kamil S.

01:30

night!

Cerberus

@KamilS I'm sure we will be able to provide some counter-weight to all the Chomskeyism and framework-fetishism.

Bye!

Stack Exchange

04:49

0

Q: Why does Spanish have so many diphthongs compared to other Romance languages?

I have studied and known Spanish my whole life, and got a job at a University where I am allowed to take some free classes. Over the past three years, I have taken all the Italian classes offered, all the Arabic classes, and now I am currently enrolled in a Portuguese class. One thing that I am ...

Stack Exchange

09:48

0

Q: Rationale for diphthongs

What is the rationale for considering di-, tri- &c. phthongs separate entities? Why aren't these sounds interpreted as sequences of a vowel and a glide? (I am interested in both, the historical reasons (Latin or Greek grammarians, I suppose?), and the modern rationale for continuing to use t...

phonology terminology diphthongs

Kamil S.

@Cerberus Ah, left too early, I see. +1 for orthography in Chomskeyism and for framework-fetishism. I'll be using the term daily to make sure I don't ever forget it :)

Alenanno

10:41

@jlovegren Your proposal is on next week! :)

5

Q: Challenge Weeks Discussion - [#3] Methodology

(!) NOTE: Information may vary until the start of the Challenge. So keep checking! Premise: This Meta question will be the one we will use for this Challenge Week but also for the future ones. The title will change after the hyphen, showing the Challenge's number (in order of time) and the t...

discussion featured challenge-week

Andrew Grimm

11:02

Would I be incorrect in saying that most of the comments in (at least those relating to the answer) linguistics.stackexchange.com/a/1572/421 were disagreeing with the content, rather than saying why it wasn't suitable as an answer?

Alenanno

Hello @AndrewGrimm. Your presence here is perfect, I was about to ping you.

brb

I'm back.

Andrew Grimm

wb

Alenanno

I think there are multiple issues.

Andrew Grimm

Ok

Alenanno

I was tending to delete your answer, but decided to let it go. When I received a flag, that convinced me it that deleting it was the right thing to do. Not because it's not an answer in general, but basically because it's not an answer to that question.

The question was asking, why linguists (usually) want to preserve languages.

Your post was just about why you wanted a certain language to die and that you were sad for another one.

This is the major reason why I decided to delete your answer.

Do you disagree? Agree? Feel indifferent?

Andrew Grimm

11:16

The fact that someone else flagged it would explain why you spent several comments disagreeing with the contents and then later on deleted the post.

Alenanno

You think the flag was triggered by my comments?

Andrew Grimm

No.

Sorry, what I meant was: I can see what happened now. You spent several comments disagreeing with the contents. Then someone flagged it. Then you deleted the answer.

If it weren't for someone flagging it, it would seem illogical to spend several comments disagreeing, and then deleting the answer.

Alenanno

Ah ok... Note that I already thought of deleting it, but I decided not. Although I disagree with myself in that decision.

Andrew Grimm

You may as well have deleted the answer straight off.

Alenanno

As you can see, moderating is everything but simple. :P

Andrew Grimm

11:20

No, it's very simple. Click a button, and you can delete views you disagree with!

Alenanno

It's not like that actually.

I don't act according to my opinions.

That would mean that I'm abusing my moderator powers.

Andrew Grimm

Is the question asking "Why do linguisticians dislike the dying of languages?", or is the question asking "What rational reasons are there for opposing the dying of languages?"

Because the former can include irrational reasons.

And also, how can you tell what a person's motives truly are?

Alenanno

The question asks about if it's true that most linguists want to preserve languages, especially when endangered, and if so, why. It's not asking about which languages we wish that would die or not...

Andrew Grimm

Stating which languages I want to die or not was used to explain why I don't want languages to die.

Alenanno

How?

Andrew Grimm

11:33

If I changed my answer to saying "Many languages die as a result of invasion and discrimination, which are seen as bad things. This can lead to people regarding language death as a bad thing, because people have an irrational tendency to think that if X is caused by bad things, then X must be bad."

and not mentioned Japanese and Ainu in particular, would that improve or worsen the answer?

Alenanno

Uhm

I think it could improve it. But it's very different. I think you could post a new one. Wait, I'm looking for something to help us in this matter.

Andrew Grimm

I'm looking at Wikipedia's list of fallacies. The best one so far is en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_fallacy

Alenanno

By the way, about your wording, how do you address the cases when a language death is not due to any external factor?

Andrew Grimm

For example?

Alenanno

I don't have any particular cases. But take a language that is not written but only spoken, native speakers decrease because they die and new generations don't learn it.

Andrew Grimm

11:46

Typically because some evil government doesn't teach it at school?

Alenanno

You think there's always one evil cause?

Going back to the main issue. I think it's safe for you to post a new one, but if you do, make sure to address the question and not just write "what you wish to write".

Andrew Grimm

I was being slightly tongue in cheek with "evil".

Andrew Grimm

12:16

I've re-written my answer.

Back in about 20

Alenanno

12:31

I suggest you post a new answer. Not only because the content is different, but because you'll start with the negative votes.

Alenanno

12:49

I have to go now. If you need to tell me something, just leave it here and I'll see it.

Kamil S.

14:32

@AndrewGrimm So you did rewrite it. Now you're making claims about what linguists think, and I would be very surprised if they were based on actual conversations with linguists. If it is your personal point of view, please don't dress it up as somebody else's. At any rate, it is an illogical point of view to say the least. There are more than one reason for languages to die out, and I can't see how this particular one would affect the entire profession's view on the matter.

Linguists have a good reason to worry about languages dying out (data!), and I absolutely don't believe a professional linguist would devise such an illogical and complex answer to a trivial question.

So, to me you seem to have ended up blaming linguists for lack of logic in an argument which is in fact your own argument which you somehow believe to be also shared by actual linguists. Brilliant logic.

Alenanno

14:50

@KamilS Thanks for the edit by the way. The problem with link-only answers or links "here" is that if the paper disappears (it gets deleted), then no-one will know what you were talking about, leading to probable down-votes. Now, even if the link goes dead, everyone can still search that paper using the title and author. Plus, since we "use" their research, the least we can do is write their names and their works. :)

Kamil S.

16:00

@Alenanno Sure thing. The first paper apparently wasn't published, that's why I only gave the author and the title. But I also changed the link to one from Academia.edu, hopefully more stable. This isn't exactly like writing papers, I'm still learning :)

Stack Exchange

17:35

Alenanno has added an event to this room's schedule.

Alenanno

Next week, 12 March 2012, we'll have a chat discussion about the next challenge week: #3 Methodology. The chat discussion is not necessarily linked to the time (we can discuss about it also during the same week). Feel free to participate!

Cerberus

@Alenanno Wow, such freedom!

Still, I'm scared to discuss anything outside its specific timeframe.

Alenanno

18:04

Very funny, @Cerberus :D

Cerberus

smiles

which looks kind of creepy, with three maws gaping at you

Alenanno

Maws?

Cerberus

A maw is the mouth of an animal.

Alenanno

Ah I see. :D

hippietrail

19:22

yo

Alenanno

19:36

Hello!

I see little close-voting on the site. I wonder what is the problem.

Yes, I was also talking about you, @hippietrail :D

And everyone else with closing privileges.

Cerberus

hides in sack

Alenanno

:P

The point is that if I close something, then I'll get the "Hey, abusing your powers, blah blah!!!", while if I close together with others, there cannot be any accusation.

Moderators are meant to be an extra help. I'm not here to do all the %$*? work. :P

Ahah I like the comics' way to say you're imprecating. :P

Cerberus

19:52

@Alenanno I understand.

But you're a volunteer.

Nobody can force you to do anything.

Alenanno

Sure, but you have the privileges.

Why not using them?

Cerberus

If a certain part of moderating is no fun, and no people will die if you direct your attention elsewhere...

@Alenanno Because I am not very motivated to do so. I don't see the advantage, except that the site looks cleaner.

Alenanno

I cannot chose to avoid doing what I'm here to do. And I'm not saying I don't want to moderate. I'm just saying I'd like to see people that are willing to contribute.

Cerberus

Sure you can choose! You're not obliged to do anything. You're here to have fun.

Alenanno

Yes yes but what I meant was that

if I saw some cooperation, I'd be happier. :D

So... Anything new?

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