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01:00 - 16:0016:00 - 23:00

16:00
Which could be a dialogue in reverse.
I think we're onto something.
Is there MovieExecutives.SE yet?
We could try to pitch it.
A whole movie spoken in anagrams.
"By what name do you wish to be called?" "Ink, sire!" [Dubs the hero with his kingly sword.] "Rise, Ink!"
Yes yes. Very good. Very good.
I guess that's better than "Sir Kine" . . .
Just make sure not to cast Kevin Costner.
16:01
But he bought the rights to it.
Anagrams With Wolves
Technically, he bought the rights to driving it right into the ground.
So that still leaves room for success.
I'll be getting more tea. AFK.
It's funny how when he got creative control and could do anything he wanted, he made movies that were almost shot-for-shot remakes of The Road Warrior.
in English Language & Usage, Feb 10 '11 at 12:50, by RegDwight
I still remember that scene from the Simpsons, where Lisa's watching a DVD commentary for the Postman and it just goes like "I'm... I'm sorry. I'm really sorry. I really am."
@snailboat is an anagram of nail boast and blast, no ai! and also sail baton.
You could conduct a sail with your baton.
@snailboat I have two apps on my smartphone that help. JLPT Kanji and WWW JDIC.
The latter lets you actually draw the kanji and either HKR it or (if you aren't sure of the stroke order), use OCR.
Anonymous
Neat!
Anonymous
It looks like a nice interface!
Best of all, it's free.
Anonymous
I have four monolingual dictionaries I tend to use, as well as the 新和英大辞典
Anonymous
I do use EDICT sometimes. It's really convenient for some purposes
Anonymous
On my phone I have スーパー大辞林
16:13
How long have you been studying Japanese?
Anonymous
About sixteen years
Anonymous
I actually have a bunch of dictionaries besides those. I kind of like collecting them :-)
Anonymous
But most of them just sit around unused.
Anonymous
I do use a 漢和辞典 I have from 学研
Anonymous
No matter how many kanji you can read across how many words or compounds, there are always more . . .
16:15
I've been doing it longer, but my enthusiasm peaked about 15 years ago, when I realized that the only to improve beyond a certain point was to go and live in Japan, and probably actually work there.
Anonymous
Well, you have to use the language every day.
Anonymous
It feels like it's been a pretty long time.
Anonymous
I should probably be a lot better than I am by now. ;-)
@snailboat Yes. The 常用漢字 are really just the tip of the iceberg.
Anonymous
Until 2010, the list was missing a lot of ridiculously common kanji, like 誰
Anonymous
16:18
I do think 〜3000 is a good number of kanji, though
@snailboat I'm amazed I still remember as much as I do. But I doubt if I remember 1,000 kanji now.
Anonymous
There's also kanji on the 常用漢字表 which are only there for political reasons
Anonymous
Like the emperor's seal, 璽
If I see them in context they come right back, but isolated it can be hard to recall all the various readings.
Anonymous
Or 虞, an obsolete way of writing 恐れ included because it's part of the Constitution
16:20
Yeah. I think the hardest thing is to either read people's names or write them if you only know them by sound. Some are easy, but some are damn near impossible.
Anonymous
Well, being able to rattle off a list of readings out of context isn't necessarily, um, necessary
Anonymous
Japanese native speakers who haven't studied kanji in a while typically can read a lot of kanji in context, but may not recognize them at all in isolation, let alone be able to give you a list of the 音訓
No. But one likes to be able to recall stuff one spent many hours studying.
Anonymous
I can understand that
I had the kanji flash cards and spent years carrying packs around with me, memorizing them during idle moments.
Anonymous
16:22
Oh, sure, me too. I've gone through thousands of paper flashcards, all made by hand. Maybe 4,000-ish
Anonymous
I haven't been doing that for a while.
See what you think of this question:
32
Q: Does the quirky spelling in English actually make it easier to read?

RobustoI just finished reading the question asked by Bobnix, in which RegDwight referred to another question with an interesting answer by Kosmonaut. Kosmonaut refers to the great number of pictograms (Kanji or Hanzi) available in Japanese and Chinese, and mentions that the task of memorizing our weirdo...

Anonymous
It's an interesting parallel
Anonymous
On the one hand, both systems have disadvantages even for literate speakers,
Anonymous
But both systems work quite well once you've put enough time in
Anonymous
16:25
(where "quite well" comes with a different set of qualifications for each)
Anonymous
I definitely like kanji.
Anonymous
But it's a huge burden for people to learn and remember how to read and write them.
Yeah. I do find myself understanding sentences even if I don't remember the readings of all the kanji.
Anonymous
English spelling, at least, I've never had to work at. I've made mnemonics for a small handful, maybe a dozen or two dozen words
Anonymous
Besides that, I've always been an extremely good speller and I've never put any work into it
16:26
Same here.
Anonymous
Some people have a significantly harder time learning.
Anonymous
Which is unfortunate.
Anonymous
Our orthography does not serve them as well as it serves us.
Whenever I have a doubt whether I'm spelling a word right, it turns out that there are variants, one of which was what I thought.
@snailboat Some folks would like to see everything written in IPA. But that would be another kind of torture.
Anonymous
One weird side-effect of putting my brain in "Japanese mode" is that I start making more spelling errors of various types when I go back to English. Still not a lot, but . . .
16:29
I find it (relatively) easy to understand what I hear and read in Japanese, but quite difficult to render the meaning in English sometimes. It's easier to "think" in a language than it is to convert what you understand into another language.
Anonymous
@Robusto Oh, you reminded me of a blog post
Anonymous
> Also, IPA transcriptions tend to become as fixed as any traditional orthography, even when the phonetic detail changes: Danish, for instance, is still written with symbols that may have been appropriate in the 1940s, but are not so today.
Anonymous
> When I visited Denmark in 1982, an eminent professor of phonetics, now deceased, told me that had he spoken Danish as a child like the current (i.e. in 1982) television newsreaders, his father would have beaten him to within an inch of his life, and yet this 1982 version of Danish had become the norm. It may be argued that the introductory material can deal with this, but how many people actually read the introduction?
Interesting.
I've felt the same way about IPA for some time. There are so many different phonemes in the world, it is impossible to reduce them to a few dozen symbols.
Anonymous
16:38
I like discussing Japanese phonemically. You can do it all without firing up an IPA keyboard :-)
Yeah, well, they have their own syllabary. Makes it easier. Though it doesn't really cover all the sounds.
Anonymous
Well, I meant with aiueo, kgsztdnphbmyrwN, and sometimes Q and ?, between slashes
Anonymous
The syllabary isn't quite perfect for everything--particularly talking about morphology
Anonymous
(I spent at least ten years hating ローマ字 until I realized it was occasionally useful! ;-)
Yeah.
I find, too, that most Americans, at least, can't hear the syllable beats in an isochronous language like Japanese. They can't hear the difference between 地図 and チーズ, for example.
Anonymous
16:51
Oh, yeah, well, that's hard! It's a phonemic contrast which is not present in most of our L1s
Anonymous
We all start out able to distinguish the sounds of any language, but we quickly lose this ability as our minds begin to specialize for our L1 languages
Meanwhile someone on the site bumps this:
2
Q: Basic resource on Japanese phonetics

user1910Could you recommend a good reference for studying Japanese phonetics?

Anonymous
Learning to recognize new phonemic contrasts in adulthood takes deliberate effort and practice--our minds automatically filter them out
Anonymous
Because they're not relevant to the languages we as native speakers practice every day.
0
A: Basic resource on Japanese phonetics

Yellow SkyI recommend a great book, "Грамматика японского языка. Введение. Фонология. Супрафонология. Морфонология" by В. М. Алпатов, И. Ф. Вардуль, С. А. Старостин. I scanned that book myself, that's the best piece I ever read on theoretical phonetics of Japanese. The annotation: Данная книга представля...

Sorry for the interruption.
lurks again
16:54
I spent a long time trying to explain to Cerberus how syllables have to be counted even when they're omitted. Like in だったら (dattara), English would pronounce it as three syllables when it's actually four. And the extra syllable (っ) is simply a hiatus.
Anonymous
It wouldn't hurt to add the Vance at least
@Robusto I have neglected to count over 9000 syllables.
@snailboat We don't even hear phonemes we didn't hear in childhood. Like we hear a Spanish-speaking person pronounce Havana and we think he's saying Habana.
Well, what are we supposed to hear in that case?
Anonymous
Some linguists make a syllable-mora distinction, and would say that a syllable can consist of one or two morae. So 東京 (/toː kjoː/) would be two syllables but four morae, だったら /dat ta ra/ would be three syllables but four morae...
16:57
Supposed to? I don't know. The point is, we translate sounds into the closest approximation we recognize.
Absolutely.
Anonymous
@Robusto Yes, that's what I was saying. Although it's not quite as absolute as all that, it strongly influences perception
Oops, that's an anti-jinx.
You owe me an Un-cola.
Why do I owe it to you?
Surely I owe it to snailboat?
16:58
Because it's an anti-jinx. It goes against all the normal rules.
Anonymous
It's more important to focus on phonemic contrasts than phonemes. If an L2 phoneme doesn't exist in your L1 but you can easily fit it into an existing mental "bucket" (mapping it to an L1 phoneme), you can learn to recognize it fairly easily
Anonymous
On the other hand, if you need to perceive a contrast between two L2 phonemes that map to the same L1 phoneme, you've got a lot more work ahead of you!
Tru dat.
@snailboat My experience differs.
I speak a language (poorly) in which I can form two different phonemes, but not hear the difference in their sounds.
Anonymous
@DavidWallace Well, I'm trying to summarize research, although I need to add several bits to that to make it non-false, I think.
17:00
Non-false is often a good thing.
Anonymous
@DavidWallace Uh-huh?
Anonymous
Yes, I think so. Of course, non-false is also hard.
Anonymous
Just a moment
Anonymous
I wish I could carry everything I want to around in my brain.
Anonymous
@DavidWallace Were you going to elaborate on that?
17:03
Umm, I could, but I'm thinking about how much effort to make, to use the right symbols.
Anonymous
Well, I was trying to speak about perception rather than production
The language of which I speak is Bosnian, in which there are two such pairs.
Exactly. As was I.
Anonymous
Oh, I see
I cannot perceive the difference between one "ch" sound and another.
So when I use the word čevapčić, it feels like I'm making far too much effort.
I have failed to "learn to recognize it fairly easily", as you posit I might have.
But maybe I am just an inferior breed, or maybe you meant something different by "mental "bucket"" than what I would have.
Anonymous
I'm talking about mapping an L2 phoneme to an existing L1 phoneme, without having to learn new contrasts, it's fairly simple. Like for an speaker of English learning to recognize the French R--you can map it to your existing R phoneme, and you don't have to learn any challenging contrasts.
Anonymous
17:10
As opposed to say, a Japanese speaker learning English, who would have trouble with L and R because they both map to the same Japanese R phoneme, so they do have to learn a contrast. That is harder.
Anonymous
That is the distinction I was making
Hey I only just realized that's David Wallace right there.
Anonymous
I may have made it poorly.
@RegDwigнt Who did you think I was?
It took him to post three lines so the avatar got bigger and there was room for his full name.
@DavidWallace it just said "David" with a gravatar I had not seen.
Anonymous
17:11
So in your case it certainly sounds like you're giving an example of the latter, harder scenario
@snailboat Yes, that accurately describes the č and ć problem for me. They both sound to me to be the same as an English ch.
Anonymous
Having to learn a new phonemic contrast, which is difficult.
Anonymous
So I am certainly not and did not intend to imply that you are an "inferior breed"! I think it is hard for everyone :-)
@RegDwigнt You can always hover on me to get a little yellow pop-up thing.
Well yeah of course.
I suppose I just don't hover over random people I don't know.
Counterintuitive, eh.
17:12
Yes, the opposite behaviour would make more sense.
Anonymous
@RegDwigнt Do you commonly hover over people you do know?
Anonymous
Or do you simply snub everyone when it comes to mouseovers?
I believe the Regd Wight is a subspecies of the Hovering Wight.
Anonymous
(L and R is a classic example of mapping two phonemes to one, but then consider that English has no fewer than five vowels to map to the Japanese /a/...)
17:14
I am so confused right now when I hover and when I don't.
Hippos are mostly down-to-earth.
@snailboat Right, I have an ex-wife who can't distinguish "had" from "head", which I think is the same as what you are saying.
Anonymous
This chat room is fun.
11
@snailboat well it only got you four hours to get from there to here.
I don't think it was intentionally that way.
Anonymous
Is it supposed to be for serious business only? I followed RegDwight here! He didn't tell me there were rules!
17:17
@DavidWallace it took me years to hear it. And it will probably take me forever to reliably reproduce it every single time without thinking.
9
Q: How can I practice pronouncing "Coke" so it is not mistaken for another word?

sergI always fear my conversation sounds like this: — What would you like to drink, sir? — I will take some cock, thanks. — ROFL. Any tips on how to pronounce Coke so it is not mistaken for anything? :)

Very relevant.
@snailboat You'd have to ask @cerberus about the rules. He eats those who get it wrong.
@serg555: the problem is that Russian and Ukrainian don't really have diphtongs. So, to explain it in the most simple terms, "cock" is closer to "кок", while coke is closer to "ко́ук", where the "оу" is kind of one connected sound, rather than two separate ones. If you are familiar with musical terms, I would say that "cock" is (mezzo) staccato, while "coke" is legato. — RegDwigнt Sep 19 '10 at 17:10
Whoa, I wrote up all that?
@RegDwigнt Or water.
I'd much lazier these days.
Just ask for fruit juice.
And I think the O in "coke" is actually a triphthong.
17:19
@RegDwigнt Cock vy poshivaiete?
Hey, how DO you spell triphthong?
Anonymous
@RegDwigнt I was about to say "See, here's a situation where knowing the OP's L1s would be really helpful, but they never say what they are"--but of course, I didn't read the comments.
Anonymous
Like that.
Thank you.
Anonymous
You win a prize! Of some sort.
17:19
A phthong?
@Robusto yes. There is a rather famous, and rather recent example of a company selling bottled water under the brand "Blue water" expanding into Russia and figuring out that to Russian ears, it's indistinguishable from блювота, "puke, barf".
Also, if we were to use IPA, the word pen would be spelled differently in Ohio than across the river in Kentucky.
IPA has always seemed a little silly to me.
@RegDwigнt Haha. The world abounds with such misunderstandings. I think wars have been fought over them.
Anonymous
@DavidWallace phthongos
17:21
I mean, vowel space is a continuous space. IPA tries to make it into a discrete one.
It does better with consonants though, I feel.
@DavidWallace except when it does not.
in English Language & Usage, Apr 23 '12 at 15:46, by RegDwight ΒВBẞ8
But look, if the L in milk is /l/ and the L in Milch is /l/ then the system is fundamentally wrong.
I liken it to the Western idea of musical notation. It is at best an approximation, and fails completely to express the pitches of, say, Indian music.
My German is poor. I think I have always pronounced Milch much like milk, but with a ch instead of a k.
Or Skryabin.
Who built himself a piano with 42 keys per octave.
I think it would be a mistake to try and express Indian music in Western musical notation.
17:23
@DavidWallace Which reminds me: how do the Brits pronounce milch?
I would make a recording, but I am not a Brit. At least, not for several generations.
@DavidWallace then I will gladly inform you that you speak German with a Dutch accent!
I'm quite sure I do not.
I guess it's mɪltʃ.
But that seems weird.
Well as far as milk is concerned, you do.
17:24
I would insert a schwa somewhere, to be sure.
Ah, @snailboat we just got a bot post in the ELU room, in case you want to check out what ours look like.
That happens but once per day, though.
I think.
And I've no idea who set them up and why, and who writes the haikus in the first place. And I am saying that in my capacity as the only room owner there.
Matt writes them.
But I have no idea how they got botted.
Well I suppose I could say I suspected as much.
17:27
Well, do I have a Dutch accent or not?
I'm still firing up the damn thing.
Patience.
Haha.
My sister-in-law has a story about a Slavic friend who gave a long soliloquy about how much she loves cock.
Your German is Swiss with a Dutch accent.
Oh dear, that can't be good.
Das Wort Chuchichäschtli [] (kleiner Küchenschrank, Hängeschrank) ist das traditionelle Schweizerdeutsche (eigentlich generell hochalemannische) Schibboleth. Dreimal kommt das ch in dichter Folge vor, das südlich der Kind/Chind-Grenze als stimmloser uvularer Frikativ gesprochen wird. Das Wort Chuchichäschtli ist bekannt dafür, dass es von Personen, die des Hochalemannischen nicht mächtig sind, nur schwer ausgesprochen werden kann. Es wird ihnen daher oft zur Belustigung zum Aussprechen empfohlen. Das Phonem „ch“ ist ein stimmloser uvularer Frikativ []. Im Unterschied zum Standarddeutschen ...
There's a sound file. Compare it to yours.
I'd say that's a bingo.
Yeah I sort of pity her for being exposed like that.
She will never work as an English teacher again.
But that's the daily reality of many a classroom around the world.
@RegDwigнt The dialogue is informative, but at one hour the lesson goes on too long.
@RegDwigнt Her probable reaction? "What so funny? Why everybody laugh?"
in English Language & Usage, Jan 28 at 22:08, by Robusto
I love it when my Chilean colleague refers to table cell elements as "TDs" ... his pronunciation makes it sound like titties.
@DavidWallace it's a shibboleth, and I am not Swiss, so I can only reliably say that your [χ] is close, but what gives away your British heritage is the [ʃ].
That one really blows every cover right out of the water.
17:35
There's more than one way to say [ʃ]?
Yes. QED.
Yeah, good point. The phonemes in ich (German) and wish (English) are often mixed up by English speakers.
I suppose if there were not, the word "shibboleth" would mean something different.
Even the Russian and the German ones are not really identical. And neither is remotely close to the English one.
They either say ick or ish.
17:36
Oh, I do have difficulty with ich, but I say neither ick nor ish.
YMMV.
You should go with ick, then. That's Berlin dialect.
You could pass for a Berliner.
An Irish-Catholic Berliner.
But the ish would be Mosel-Franconian, where I am from, and trust me, your sh is not the one we're looking for.
Oh, that makes it hard. Doing Berliner and Catholic at the same time. I AM part Irish though.
17:38
We forgive you.
For once.
I am just sitting here in stunned surprise - Reg finally revealed where he is from.
No I did not.
It is still half a lie, and the rest is not true.
But my current location has been up on my GLU profile for everyone to see for like years.
Ah yes, but we now have something to inlink, next time you challenge someone to identify your origin.
Well. Was. I replaced it with my hippo promotion recently.
17:40
Oh, I see. I didn't identify your avatar as a hippo, I'm afraid. It reminds me too much of Mater.
Anonymous
It's too small for me to see that it's a hippo, even with my glasses on.
If I blow it up, it becomes clearly a hippo. But still a hippo that reminds me of Mater.
Well you could just follow the link. Sheesh, people. lego.cuusoo.com/ideas/view/39075
BTW I spent the last three minutes furiously hunting down a three-year old ELU comment of mine in which I publicly stated I was posting it from the French border.
But I can't find it.
I blame the KGB.
I am imagining only "needing" five animals, as you suggest on the page you linked to.
By writing "you", I am of course making the obvious assumption.
@DavidWallace that'd be 25 bucks. Perhaps only just 20. You can say that when supporting. But I guess you read that part.
Anyway, which five animals would these be?
17:46
The five you suggested I might need.
Now I'm confused.
Perhaps I need more tea.
"... if you'd only need five, enter 20 and so on ..."
Ah. Well you could also say four or six.
I am not trying to be incomprehensible. There are other rooms for that.
You are not trying and yet you are succeeding.
Hat's off to you, sir.
17:49
Some find me very trying.
I never looked for you, so can't say with confidence how I'd find you.
Do you want me to come looking for you?
I already was looking at @Rob's backyard.
I doubt whether I'd be there.
You never know.
Rob has never invited me to his backyard, nor I him to mine.
Looks like you're quits.
I think Rob's backyard was the very first picture ever to be posted in the ELU chat.
17:53
The ELU chat predates my SE presence.
The ELU chat predates the big bang, for small values of the big bang.
Those would be small bangs. And they don't happen on a first predate.
I wonder what the Japanese chat room looks like.
I bet it would go like, Rob says このドッキドキは, and snailboat says なぜ止まらない, and I go WTF did they just say merikurisumasu?
Well, I wouldn't say that for Hiragana, of course. But you get the point.
444444444444
Are you generating random numbers?
17:58
That is the sound of one hand clapping.
In Japanese.
444 in Japanese would be hohoho, which is the sound of Santa. Or a Japanese woman laughing.
That would scare the children.
in English Language & Usage, Dec 13 at 21:34, by Robusto
@RegDwigнt This is because the syllable for ho shows less of the inside of the mouth than ha. Guys get away with exposing their tongues and palates, but women are expected not to do that. This is also why you'll frequently see Japanese women cover their mouths when they laugh.
For real?
Well there's some follow-up discussion with Mitch, if you click through.
Anonymous
18:03
Hahaha
Oh and I'll be logging off in a minute to cook and watch TV and eat.
You guys have fun.
Anonymous
@RegDwigнt 8888 is the sound of applause (hachi → pachi, unmarked handakuten)
@snailboat I just saw your palate! I am embarrassed! Or rather, you should!
@snailboat ah thanks. I really didn't get it.
Off I go. Lators gators.
@snailboat See, I knew YOU'D understand me!
Bye @Reg
18:17
0
Q: What is the most efficient way to store n-grams in a database / data structure?

mtantiLet's assume we have Google's 1T n-grams. I want to be able to: Search for n-grams containing all of a set of words (such as finding all n-grams containing the words "dog" and "bone" in any position) The above search but for n-grams of a particular size only Search for n-grams using a template ...

OK, I'm off too. Nice meeting you, @snailboat.
 
2 hours later…
20:24
0
Q: Doubt regarding pronouns in highly inflected languages

Gustavo Campedellithis is my first post in this forum :D I'm currently studying Icelandic. Right away at one of the first steps I found a bit of difficulty and I wonder if any of you might be able to help me as the question might be answered based on any highly inflected language. The doubt regards the use of p...

0
Q: Grammatical Aspects

DariyaI am searching for two special types of grammatical aspects. 1) an aspect that has a meaning of 'try or attempt' ex: he made an attempt to ask. 2) an aspect that has a meaning of 'eventual or definitive' ex: he has gone eventually.

21:07
0
Q: Universal "grammar" for mathematics

RichardbernsteinThe Chomsky paradigm states that all languages obey certain laws or conditions which ultimately are a function of the physical properties of the brain. Is there a similar constraint on mathematics? Is it thought that there is universal (the universe being humans) structure of mathematics that is ...

 
1 hour later…
22:19
Hello! I came here too. I came late to the party, as always.
01:00 - 16:0016:00 - 23:00

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