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20:00
I don't think we decided on a sentence structure yet
the word order isn't that fixed
because we're gonna use cases
where can I find the word list?
With noun casing it doesn't matter much
@GingerIndustries It's going to be a bit less official than a single word list I think
That's a good, democratic way to decide on words
20:00
what's this room for?
Just request them, start using them, and if they catch on, they catch on
@mathcat We're making a TNB conlang
means?
with cases pretty much anything can just be tacked on and a verb is the only thing that's necessary
Formal word structure proposal: [tense] [adjectives]-[noun][case] [verb]
@mathcat We're designing a written/spoken language for TNB
20:01
i think. where do we want the verb in that case, at the end?
modification suggestions?
I think we should allow any order for the nouns
@RedwolfPrograms so a secret language only for TNB?
@RedwolfPrograms yeah, there should be no fixed order for the nouns I think
20:02
@mathcat No, just a language designed by TNB, for TNB
[case]-[noun] [verb]?
ah
sounds fun
We should probably have trailing adjectives, if we're doing casing particles before
@GingerIndustries what about the adjective?
nothing to do with coding?
20:02
having a fixed place for the verb is a good idea, but I think it would make sense to have that place be the start of the sentence, not the end
@RedwolfPrograms Although I like the reverse more
@mathcat correct
I like [adj] [noun] [casing]
[verb] [case]-[noun] [adjectives]?
@pxeger 100 percent correct
Latin...
nope
20:03
@pxeger because the verb basically carries the most important information in the sentence
I like VSO
German puts it "second" which is not terribly well-defined but helps with parsing
@DLosc the whole point of cases is that you can put the nouns anywhere you like
[case]-[verb] [adjectives] [noun]?
@pxeger almost every time
you kind of need the verbs to be on the left or right though
otherwise you have trouble with relative clauses
20:04
[verb] [tense][case]-[noun] [adjectives]???
@pxeger Not the whole point of cases, but yes, word order can be flexible
I'm in favor of verb first
until a decision is made we cannot use this language
Maybe a default of VSO and then if you want to emphasize a word you can pull it to the front
I'm in favor of case-verb
20:04
@GingerIndustries This seems overly simplistic and not really a helpful model of how to represent the grammar
VSO or VOS should be both acceptable
I'm simplifying
for example, how do you translate "the person who is eating the food sees the person who is drinking the water"
I don't think we need a default
20:05
what is S in that case?
I like verb first too
verb-first or verb-last are both fine, and with cases, subject/object can be unfixed
or just not exist
What should our subject, dir. obj., and ind. obj. particles be?
20:05
@hyper-neutrino something like "see person[subj case marker] who eat food person[obj case marker] who[subj case marker] drink water"
so more flexible?
with verb-first my example would be like
@RedwolfPrograms and where should they go
so I want V TC-S A
I think they should come before the noun
20:05
ok nvm pxeger got it already lol
@GingerIndustries vote close?
this is just for words, not sentences
hm, particle before the noun? interesting
Bigger question: how many noun cases do we want, and which ones?
@RedwolfPrograms I think their position should be described relative to the verb, not the noun
20:06
And adjs after
@pxeger Wait, the casing's part of the verb?
@DLosc subject, direct object, at least, and then max of a few more
verb tense&case-noun/subject adjectives
also, adj before or after the noun, because i don't want to end up like french and have both xD
@DLosc I'd say 3 or 4
or [verb] [tense][case]-[noun] [adjectives]
20:06
V C-N S-A
@hyper-neutrino I say after
@RedwolfPrograms wait I misunderstood what you were talking about, ignore me
@DLosc depends on if we want to make things like direction/destination a part of the case or the verb
Or prepositions
for example, if your verb is "to go to" then "I go to the store" can case myself with subject and the store with object
20:07
@GingerIndustries I think tense marker should be like an adverb, can more or less be anywhere
if your verb is just "to go" then the self is a subject but the store would have to be a location
Right
in fact, tense markers arguably are adverbs
flexible tense makes some sense
the only thing you need to worry about is again if it's too flexible you get ambiguity with relative clauses
what noun cases are there?
20:08
@hyper-neutrino in French, direct object and indirect object are used almost like 2nd and optional 3rd "arguments" to verbs, with no real relation to actual preposition meaning
@GingerIndustries Subject, direct object, and indirect object I think
@RedwolfPrograms examples?
and maybe possessive?
i'm trying to learn linguistics at this point
@pxeger oh, do you have an example? it's been a while since i've used french
@GingerIndustries "I gave the ball to the girl": in English, "I" is subject, "the ball" is direct object, "the girl" is indirect object
@GingerIndustries "You gave my dog to my dad": "You" is subject, "my dog" is direct object, "my dad" is indirect object
@GingerIndustries there's also this weird thing in Latin called ablative
it's this with sort of stuff
20:10
@DLosc @GingerIndustries simple explainer
and locativ
@DLosc i do not understand any of those four words kek
@mathcat The basic idea of an ablative case is pretty straightforward ("from where"), it's just that Latin overloads its ablative case with a ton of other meanings
@hyper-neutrino in English, very roughly, nominative is subject, accusative is object
so under my system it would be [walk] [direct object][store] bc present tense is implied and there are no adjectives used
sound good?
20:11
[go to] is an imperative
That's a whole separate thing
wait, so if the subject is removed it becomes imperative?
i'd rather have imperative be a tense-like adverb thing
that's ... lot
20:12
@hyper-neutrino It is
also this word order is basically japanese but reversed lol
I was talking about [go to]
ah yes, esenapaj
@hyper-neutrino Or replace the subject with some kind of special pronoun-like particle indicating imperative, rather than removing it altogether?
20:12
I read that as like "go to the store", where "go" is imperative
@pxeger that could work too
@RedwolfPrograms oh. i read it as "to go to" = verb
oh
Wait, so will we have words like the and a?
a decision must be made posthaste
i don't think articles are really that needed
@RedwolfPrograms I don't think we need them
Sounds good
@GingerIndustries also, wouldn't store need to be indirect object / destination case / whatever else there is here?
Pronoun suggestion: nos (we/us), vos (y'all)
oh suggestion
inclusive and exclusive we
20:14
Ooh +1
Should we have a we + you and we + y'all distinction?
oh yes
@RedwolfPrograms yes
Maybe a prefix to nos/vos then (if we go with those)
20:15
oh that'd be interesting
nonos and novos or something?
Official word format: [verb] [tense][case]-[noun] [adjectives]
so like if i'm talking to a group of people, i can include the person i am directly talking to without the rest of their group?
NOT SENTENCES, JUST SINGLE WORDS
@RedwolfPrograms that sound funny
20:16
@hyper-neutrino Yep!
@RedwolfPrograms "we but not you" is a more important distinction than "we + {you or 'y'all' [I hate that 'word']}"
^ minus hating "y'all"
@RedwolfPrograms can we avoid just pirating spanish too heavily?
@GingerIndustries no dash?
20:16
@grandBagel forgot dash
Those were mostly just placeholders
Since it's hard to talk about words that don't exist :p
there, we're done with that
it has been decided
:)
@GingerIndustries I thought there won't be a dash in the actual word
Well there also won't be both a noun and a verb in the actual word lol
@pxeger depends
I think the dash makes it more clear
20:17
Have vovos talked about the tenses yet?
Q: Why is Spanish a pirate's favorite language?
A: Because all the verbs end with -ar
4
I need a word list so I can try speaking this
Q: Why is Spanish a otolaryngologist's favorite language?
A: Because all the verbs end with -ir
here (not complete)
2 hours ago, by Redwolf Programs
So pas, ni, fu for the tenses (ni being optional)?
20:18
Q: Why is Spanish an indecisive brit's favorite language?
A: Because all the verbs end with -er
@Wezl-acautionarytale yup
er's my favourite word
pasnifu should be an adjective for confused
or long lasting
Yeah, I was thinking more like "unchanging, eternal"
how do questions work
20:20
I hate english's "do"
@hyper-neutrino What do you mean?
Here's my idea of the grammar so far: first [verb] (always); then the remaining components can basically go anywhere. These components are: [tense], [adverb], [case][noun][adjective], [case][pronoun]
2
@hyper-neutrino do we want a question mark?
i should be for pluralization
Maybe questions are an adjective?
20:20
about that
do we want pluralization conjugations
@RedwolfPrograms huh?
so o is one cat, oi is 2 cats, oIIII is 10,000 cats
or pluralization at all
on is any amount of cats
makes sense
20:21
@hyper-neutrino yeah I think we agreed on i being a suffix for plurals, and it being repeatable
repeatable?
@pxeger "You are going to the store" -> "You questionly are going to the store" ("You're going to the store?" or "Are you going to the store?")
@hyper-neutrino so if there are really a lot of cats, you can use iiii
@hyper-neutrino each i is one more thing, each I is exponentially more
@hyper-neutrino for verbs? I don't think so
interesting
@pxeger no, IIII
about capitalization, let's only use it for emphasis
Let's stick to Latin convention for capital letters
Start of sentence, and proper nouns.
I''m working on the word list
20:22
sure
@pxeger So, all caps for everything? ;P
@pxeger with maximum being how many i's?
@DLosc I mean the convention of all modern languages which use the latin alphabet
@mathcat Any number :p
@pxeger * except German
20:23
@RedwolfPrograms what about I?
I don't think i/I is actually a real feature of the language, right?
@DLosc well the German system's not too much of a deviation from the norm actually though
True
@RedwolfPrograms the capitalisation isn't at least, I think
i for plurals is a feature I think
I kinda like being able to repeat it for increasing subjective number, but there should be some reasonable guidelines around it
Please preface all words with WR: so I can search them up
5
20:24
like i is "a few", ii is generic "some" / "many", and iii is "too many"?
@pxeger i is one more, I is 10 times more
@pxeger 2 cats: oi
@GingerIndustries no we're not using capitalisation to mark anything
1. no capitalization for things like that
2. i don't like having that much precision
3
@pxeger I want an exponential increaser
We're not using it for exact numbers
20:25
this is a human language, not a computer language
if someone types oiiiiiiii and expects me to count the is i'm leaving them on read :P
@GingerIndustries we want it to be vague
Okay, one sec
i: One more
ii: Two more
iii: Lots
iiii: Very very many
iiiii: Infinite
@pxeger i like this
20:26
@hyper-neutrino same
also how do we deal with uncountables
@hyper-neutrino use n
@hyper-neutrino on?
@hyper-neutrino For a solid 10 seconds I thought you meant uncountable infinities, LOL
20:27
lol
WR: lol: Happines/laughter
@pxeger Same
So are we doing separate markers for case and for number, then?
20:28
yeah, but actually it's a good point: what order do they go in?
numbers should just be a seperate word
don't overcomplicate
We need to hash out numbers and ordinals soon so we have a name for TNB
@GingerIndustries I think we meant not actual number, but pluralisation
@GingerIndustries I meant number as in singular vs plural
Ordinals should just be a particle with a number
20:29
speaking of names, what is this language called?
What is the name of this language?
TNB conlang?
Buncha ninjas in here today :P
@DLosc all nouns are singular unless suffixed with i
We can give it a name like "TNB conlang" in "TNB conlang" once we have those words
20:29
@pxeger is it noun[o/i/ii/iii][case] or noun[case][o/i/ii/iii]?
yes
just call it tnb language
@grandBagel izl o lan
I think cases should be particles at the front
@pxeger Or [case]noun[o/i/ii/iii]?
finger-biting cat language
20:30
we already have a word for chat, we just need one for language
@Wezl-acautionarytale o'izl
WR: xor: language
We don't have x
Maybe shor?
WR: shor: language
@pxeger Of these, I think I prefer noun[o/i/ii/iii][case]
20:31
WR: lano (n): word
Wait, are we saying that all singular nouns end with o?
This language is therefore called kat shor
WR: varir (v): To define (a word)
@DLosc yeah I think this is the best one actually
WR: lani (n): words / language
20:32
Wait, o/i?
I thought it was no ending for singular
@DLosc +1
Since o just means cat
I thought o marked singular
@RedwolfPrograms so varir lano?
Oh was it?
20:33
@RedwolfPrograms but yeah that's fine, I thought o was a bit weird
We could just do no ending for singular
@RedwolfPrograms but then is it adjective or plural first? Or are we scrapping the idea of putting adjectives in the same word as the nouns?
@RedwolfPrograms +1
@RedwolfPrograms yeah I guess that's best
@RedwolfPrograms I like that
brb, no new words until I'm back
20:33
wait so do all nouns end with consonants
@pxeger Plural should be attached more closely than adjectives, IMO
@hyper-neutrino Not necessarily
and do verbs have a consistent ending / format (also, i can't remember but no conjugations right?)
So [noun][plural] [adjectives]
Will we have a glottal stop in our language?
WR: lan (n): word
20:34
@RedwolfPrograms Probably not officially, but people will put them in anyway to aid in pronunciation
@hyper-neutrino We have three tense markers but I don't think we decided anything else about verbs
I think it doesn't need a letter of its own
We should probably not have nouns at the end of words
Uh...I mean vowels lol
At the end of nouns
I don't think it's a problem to end with o or a
@RedwolfPrograms italians crying and shaking rn
20:35
i and y might be problematic, yeah
u could be fine
u should be fine too
@DLosc we definitely can't have nouns ending with i, because then they become plural
So, we probably need some case marker particles now
I'd like it if we could have a consistent ending to denote noun/verb/adj/other but it's probably not going to happen
20:36
What cases did we decide on?
We didn't
Honestly a consistent ending for every part of speech isn't a bad idea
I need a set of example sentences for the docs
@RedwolfPrograms nominative, direct accusative, indirect accusative, at least, but I don't think we settled on whether there are any more
think about this one hard, because these are the examples
20:36
But it sounds like a nominative/accusative system is the way to go to avoid hurting everyone's brains
We can start with those I guess
@RedwolfPrograms Disagree. Esperanto does that and it looks really unnatural.
eh???????
examples please
@DLosc yeah I think it makes it a bit too rigid
@GingerIndustries We don't have enough of the language figured out to have example sentences
20:37
brb
@RedwolfPrograms :/
"Oops, finger-biting monkey!" will have to do for now :p
Anyone want to propose a noun casing particle?
@GingerIndustries We're close, I think. We just need to decide on cases and verb syntax and then we can write a transitive sentence.
I don't want to 'cause I'd probably pick something stupid lol
ta = subject
We could be lazy and do like...nom, dir, idir or something, but I don't really like that
How about, alongside DLosc's ta:
su = direct object
Different noun and consonant to avoid mishearing it
20:40
Sounds good
Maybe like, ri or pi for indirect?
I was about to propose lia
have we discussed articles?
lia sounds good
20:41
@Wezl-acautionarytale I believe we decided against them
So ta/su/lia
Do we want prepositions or postpositions?
Prepositions sound better to me
@RedwolfPrograms same
varir ta komy izl lani
"The finger-biting monkey defines words"
20:43
Couldn't we have no subject marker?
Oh, good point
@RedwolfPrograms I'm not a fan of r at the end of words
yeah, me neither tbh
@pxeger I think it could be optional if the subject comes right after the verb, but weren't we planning to make the word order flexible?
did we ever define phonotactics?
@DLosc but if only the subject lacks a marker, then you know it's the subject
@DLosc I suppose if one of the nouns is missing the casing, you'd know it's the subject regardless of its position
Hm. I suppose so.
How are we doing possessives?
Maybe we can make ta like ni
I was gonna suggest another case for possessives
20:45
@RedwolfPrograms Use it when you need it, it's optional otherwise
For possessives, who's possessing what?
@pxeger you apply it to the possessor; the possessee gets the case according to its role in the sentence as normal
Makes sense I guess
Suggestions for the particle?
so for "Alice's key[subj]" you write "key[subj] Alice[possessive]"
What if you want to say "I took alice's key"?
@pxeger That's not the only possibility, but it's a common one, yes
20:46
@RedwolfPrograms my?
Sounds good
@RedwolfPrograms "I[subj] took Alice's key[obj]" -> "take [past] [subj]I [obj]key [possessive]Alice"
Ohh, so it just comes after whatever the possessee is?
That makes sense, especially with the casing being at the front, because you can mentially parse it as "key my alice"
It's like the genitive in Latin, or the preposition "of" in English.
(oh yeah I forgot case goes at the front, my bad)
20:49
This is sounding good!
I guess we need pronouns next, probably?
@DLosc Genitive is exactly what it is, yeah
I think the possessor should go in the same position as an adjective
if komy izl isn't a commonly used insult in this language, I will be disappointed
@Wezl-acautionarytale They basically do
wait are adjectives postfix?
my [possessor] goes after the noun being possessed
@Wezl-acautionarytale Yes
20:52
@RedwolfPrograms needs an imperative particle to be properly insulting
otherwise it could be a friendly warning at the zoo
generally good advice to not stick your fingers through the bars
I'm officially adopting the translation "bitey" for izl
:)
So is vvizl izl the word for "bitey weasel"?
(I'd heard vvizl mentioned, don't remember if it was a word request)
20:54
@RedwolfPrograms That's redundant ;P
Can we change the fu future-tense particle to fy?
@DLosc No, the word you're looking for is poetic :p
@pxeger Why?
@RedwolfPrograms (I'd prefer to spell it with one v, FWIW)
Same, I don't even think vvizl was meant as a WR lol
@RedwolfPrograms because then it actually matches the start of the English pronunciation of the word "future"
20:56
Our u was like the one in future, right?
Not like the one in luck?
WR: vaiksal: bad
2
Or did I get it backwards
@RedwolfPrograms no, u is more like in boot; further back
I guess we could do fy, yeah
Onions?
If you have a Californian surfer duuude accent, boot is inaccurate
20:58
Room's gone kinda quiet
Are case markers attached to nouns, or is there a space in between?
I've been imagining them with a space
@RedwolfPrograms it's 9PM GMT - must be everyone's bedtime
speaking of which
I think we'd been calling them particles, so it'd make sense for them to be separate
Bye pxeger o/
we don't need words for bad, we can just take the word for good and then like add an "un-" prefix before it /s
oh yeah what do we do with copular verbs
20:59
Flashbacks to esperanto
I'd proposed sir really early on, but before we decided on noun casing (so it was intended like so, sis, si, simus, etc.)

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