@RedwolfPrograms yes

@DLosc well, actually, we kinda need that in order to have "onion"

Okay, so we have s, z, sh, f, and v as our fricatives/approximants so far

also can we please have u to be schwa and no other vowels meaning schwa?

Wait, that could be ugly in some places though...

Uh

to diphthongs or not to diphthongs?

brb

I'm alright with a few diphthongs

I thought u was going to be high back rounded vowel. Do we need schwa at all?

not as many as english though

^^

@DLosc I think schwa is pretty useful

@RedwolfPrograms says who?

And I thought we were kinda agreed on removing w anyway

That was more of an opinion, badly worded

I like how italian removes iforgotwhatheyrecalleds like ct

oh ok

I like r but I'd also like to keep l

I want to keep r, I know having a rhotic is bad for IALs and stuff, but I think we can get away with it here right?

@Wezl-acautionarytale something something phonotactics? yeah

I don't think having both r and l would be an issue, we could just have people not used to rhotics pronounce r more like w

@RedwolfPrograms well we can just make its pronunciation undefined and let all kinds of rhotics and maybe even l-ish or w be valid

@pxeger It can be useful, but a) not all languages have it, so that gets back to the "hard for speakers of non-English languages to pronounce," and b) it doesn't have a natural letter to represent it in ASCII.

@pxeger Agreed

Starring that, I think l and r are both fine.

That'd make our (final?) fricatives/approximants inventory: s, z, f, v, sh, l, and r

I'm ok with those as a final set

rubber sta mp r of approval

what was the deal with q again?

Should be have the letter c?

Are we dropping the ng sound? I think we talked about how to spell it but never decided anything.

@pxeger I think we got rid of it for now

@RedwolfPrograms What would it be used for?

idk, maybe just like a s/k like it is in english?

s??

@Wezl-acautionarytale like settembre ottobre

@RedwolfPrograms Let's not. Each letter should have a single pronunciation if possible.

To a degree, but I think c is simple enough and improves the recognizability of lots of words

@RedwolfPrograms c makes the sh sound?

@DLosc (which I realize is slightly contradictory to my earlier suggestion about i and u as semivowels, but at least those sounds are phonologically very similar to their vowel sounds)

I'm in support of sh as a digraph, since we don't have h anyway (wait, we never even brought up h yet)

c as sh wouldn't be a bad idea

That way we don't need h to exist, purely to make the sh diagraph

@Wezl-acautionarytale I'm fine with this, although I will probably pronounce it as ch frequently.

@RedwolfPrograms +1

Anyone against dropping h entirely?

@RedwolfPrograms -1

@RedwolfPrograms no

@RedwolfPrograms I like h

Is that a pro-h or anti-h vote?

I like dropping h

@RedwolfPrograms anti-h

Hmm. So we have some support both for and against h

@pxeger TheSecondComing123

@pxeger RedwolfPrograms (who would have guessed lol)

@pxeger ermineii

@pxeger dloscutoff

@RedwolfPrograms I already have you and dlosc, thanks though lol

Ha, didn't check first ^_^'

I love that the latest commit message is just onion

Any other options for sh other than c and sh?

We could use x, I suppose

@RedwolfPrograms -1

@RedwolfPrograms But I dislike that

@RedwolfPrograms -1

I think it's Lojban that uses x for sh and I can never make it sound right in my head

h for sh?

sc is possibly even an option

And we could optionally use normal c for another purpose

sc is what italian uses

but I'm against digraphs unless we use digraphs for everything

I wouldn't be against sc, although I'd still like to keep h in which case sh makes the most sense

cit looks more like sit or kit to me, but I could get used to scit

I vote either sh (to keep it Englishy) or c (to avoid digraphs)

@RedwolfPrograms is this the only sh word you know?

No, but it's the first I thought of lol

@DLosc +1 for sh

If we do sh, I guess we could keep h

how about capital S :P

Since having it purely for a single digraph makes no sense

Do we want the h sound?

I don't, but there's support for it

Should we do a vote?

yes

Various other back-of-the-mouth/throat fricatives are also options for the pronunciation of h

Vote here for sh only

Vote here for c

Vote here for sc

I'm getting cooldown'd lol

having c just for sc is worse than h just for sh

@Wezl-acautionarytale +1

@Wezl-acautionarytale +1

@Wezl-acautionarytale We could have c do other stuff though

but having c for sh is fine

I'm generally against digraphs

@RedwolfPrograms great, a tie...

We're tied, I'd be the tiebreaker but I can't decide myself lol

2-2-2

We could always allow both I guess...

tbh I don't have a problem with removing the sh sound entirely

I like sh, but yeah

what've I missed?

Lots of deliberation about sh and h

@RedwolfPrograms it's ok to have a bit of inconsistency organicness

ah

@GingerIndustries sh, h, just sh, or sc

I have a very important question

Is it Turing-complete?

...

@GingerIndustries not sure, but it is TNB-complete

@RedwolfPrograms this one is at the top of the starboard ;P

All we need is a word for interpret, and a word for turing-machine

@RedwolfPrograms this one was posted first...

Let's just go with sh and h I guess

We can make any changes we want later on since sh isn't super common anyway

so far the words we've agreed upon are pas (past), ni (present), fu (future), o (cat) :P

@RedwolfPrograms Fine with me, I don't have strong onions

@Wezl-acautionarytale don't forget i for cats

RO abuse ftw :p

@grandBagel I think we oughta decide how (or whether) we're doing plurals before having a word for "cats"

@Wezl-acautionarytale onion for opinion

just have a word for how many

is that now onon because y?

like some cat, many cat, very many cat, infinite cat

@Wezl-acautionarytale It could be pronounced as three syllables, like "oh-knee-own"

@pxeger I'm just GingerIndustries

@DLosc oh yeah right

I like instead of plurals have a word for how much of something

how about o for singular, i for plural, and if there is no noun it's assumed to be cat :P

@GingerIndustries you mean... numbers?

lol

@pxeger but fancy

even better: repeat the first letter for how many

@Wezl-acautionarytale that's actually not a terrible idea

@Wezl-acautionarytale lol :3

so 10 cats would be oooooooooo

and then if you mean "really a lot" you can use ii for many-plural

@pxeger iii is infinity

@GingerIndustries i[nf]i[n]i[ty]

So do we have a sound system now? Are there any sounds we're missing?

needs more bass

@DLosc Nope, I think we have phonetics finished

Syllable structure?

@pxeger my github username is just GingerIndustries

So, on to phonotactics

@pxeger each i is 10

@GingerIndustries yes I invited you after the first time you said that

@grandBagel no, it's exponential

@pxeger oh sry

@RedwolfPrograms I vote infinite consonant smushage!

if you have 10,000 cats (cause who doesn't) it would be oiiii

@pxeger okay but allow implicit schwa if there are too many consonants

@GingerIndustries how do you pronounce this?

@Wezl-acautionarytale "o-iy-iy-iy-iy"

[glottal stop]oh[glottal stop]ee[glottal stop]ee[glottal stop]ee[glottal stop]ee

Let's define a standard format for proposing a word

Like:

okay I don't like how that sounds but it works

CMV: word: definition

caminar (v): To walk

Request For Word

RFW

Chat Mini Vocab!

@pxeger Call Me Vmaybe

WR: caminar: To walk

(Word Request)

Change My View

CMV: komy: Monkey (Noun)

let's stop now

let's start proposing words

CMV: tura: Turing machine

We need at least a couple of very basic nouns and verbs for examples

^

gtg

alright

@pxeger o/

hm

WR: sir: To be

hi: hello

bi: Goodbye

WR: alo: jump (Verb)

okay while he's gone we can make pxeger a curse word

pxeger: (looking like) a cockroach

WR: pxeger: "frick"

WR: pxeger: To verbosify

mine is better

You mean pgr, I assume?

oh right

what's the alphabet?

can someone star it?

@DLosc of course

alphabet

That's not up to date at the moment, tho

and it doesn't mention sh

a, b, d, f, g, h, i, k, l, m, n, o, p, r, s, (sh), t, u, v, y, z

use q for sh

c?

wops

abdfghiklmnoprsqtuvyz

wops: Accident

c is in the github file, so we can change it there

@GingerIndustries how about yps

No, wops should be an interjection

Or yps, like Wezl said

But not a noun

@Wezl-acautionarytale Yes, because no w

To make it format:

hm

WR: yps (interjection): Oops!

adjectives needed

WR: ope (adjectives): Big

brb

@grandBagel We don't have e

woops

*yps :p

WR: opb (adjectives): Big

^^ lol

We should have like...a github.io voting site for deciding what words to include :p

WR: izl (adjective): will byte your fingers off

Since stars would be annoying

yps, komy izl!!!

The organic approach is that anyone can add a word, and if other people like it they'll start using it

Oh, good point

That'll also probably sort out the phonotactics

@RedwolfPrograms translation, please

oops, finger-biting monkey!

rofl

Anyone know a good poll site?

Chat :p

meta.se /hj

Besides that :P

WR: kat: chat

WR: byt: Byte

WR: bit: Bit

@RedwolfPrograms how is "c" pronounced here?

Forgot we don't have c for k

And c as sh wouldn't be good there...

WR: ktom (verb): to eat

We'll need ordinal numbers soon

we should make all the numbers 0-12 single syllables, with no idontknowwhattheyrecalleds (digraphs?) like tr or ks

@Wezl-acautionarytale Consonant clusters?

yes

WR: Kloc (verb): to play

@DLosc I'll probably end up pronouncing this as iktom or tom

we also need no and yes

Wait, how will our noun casing actually work?

@RedwolfPrograms I tend to put a schwa between the k and the t, but putting one at the beginning is also valid

Will it be with particles or endings

WR: Yes: no

WR: No: yes

@Wezl-acautionarytale single syllables, different vowels, and different consonants

no should definitely have n

WR: no: No

WR: is: Yes

@RedwolfPrograms I rather like the idea of having a particle before each noun phrase that conveys number and case. We've already had a suggestion of o for singular and i for plural--those could just be converted to the singular/plural of a specific case, with other variants added for different cases.

And, let's get a bit creative with the phonotactics:

WR: iis: If

@RedwolfPrograms we need to be very explicit. is this like "a little bit" or "a bit (of a byte)"

Bit of a byte

I figured byt/bit made that clear but yeah

also, is kat a verb, noun, or both?

Noun

We should probably do WRn, WRv, etc.

@GingerIndustries github.dev/pxeger/tnb-conlang/blob/…

Or just WR: kat (n):

@GingerIndustries oh gee, thanks

@RedwolfPrograms I like this more

Same

WR: sy gust (intj): I like it!

WR: no gust (intj): I don't like it!

sy gust :p

@RedwolfPrograms sy is already "yes"

Oh yeah

what does the int stand for?

Interjection

I think "inject" would be better

@pxeger Needs a bit of updating with these changes

@grandBagel Best I could do, I had 2s left to edit so I just added a j at the end :p

Anyone have any ideas on pronouns?

she: I/me

Main idea: no gendered pronouns

he: she/her

I: he/him

WR: heim (pronoun): she/him

we still haven't figured out the noun casing

What about...pronouns based on opinions about somebody?

yeah, pronouns will need some way to add case

@RedwolfPrograms A pronoun for "friend", a pronoun for "annoying", etc.

@RedwolfPrograms like "you", "darling", and "bitch"?

I like this/that (demonstratives)

@pxeger hyper-neutrino

so this+that+former+latter can be pronouns

@pxeger You can call someone all three if you're brave enough

@pxeger If we do case/number particles, we can just use those with pronouns the same way they're used with nouns

@DLosc I think it makes more sense to attach case directly to pronouns though

@Wezl-acautionarytale it can also be one (making a distinction between living nouns and everything else)

are WRs word recommendations?

yes

@hyper-neutrino word request

also do we have a chart for pronunciation cuz i've missed most of the discussion about what chars we're dropping

I keep reading it as world record lol

lol

@hyper-neutrino github.com/pxeger/tnb-conlang/blob/main/phonetics.md

What was the sentence structure again?

@pxeger I'd vote for doing the same thing for nouns and pronouns. Either attach the case marker to both, or use a separate particle for both.

oh nice

@grandBagel Very little structure rn, since noun casing

i don't know how to pronounce german y lol

@DLosc the trouble with attaching it to nouns is that it limits what words can be valid nouns

Having grammar for pronouns that's different from how nouns are treated is a pretty English-like feature that I'd like to get away from.

@hyper-neutrino Me neither, so I'm just considering it a learning opportunity :p

I think it was [adjective + tense via diacritic]-[noun] [verbs]?

@hyper-neutrino Say ee as in "meet", but then round your lips at the same time

I think a is a in "ah", i is ee in three, o is o in bone, u is u in but, y is o in do

I thought it was "u" as in "o" in "two"

@DLosc It's also a sound in French, if that helps at all--as in lune

oh

yeah that helps

is it similar to "yu" in mandarin too (if you're familiar with that)

@RedwolfPrograms Although it's more of a golden sound than a light blue, if that makes sense

@hyper-neutrino en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Close_front_rounded_vowel.ogg

@DLosc it's maybe a bit further forward than french u

back

o/

wait, are we still using the [tense] [adjectives]-[noun] [verbs] syntax?

just making sure

not sure