The Comms Room

MDMarra

14:00

@ewwhite Yeah, it's a niche still

They keep adding lots of cool features to it, though

for free

ewwhite

But it's not appealing to a Unix person

MDMarra

right but the majority of shops aren't unix

I think it'll slowly start grabbing market share over the next few years

Definitely won't unseat VMware any time soon though

ewwhite

@MDMarra the majority of shops are a mix.

I've never been in an all-windows environment

Ryan Ries

I watch it unseat VMware in a lot of small shops that are tired of the licensing cost

ewwhite

and even then, you have people who need Linux for their Wordpress installation (or something trivial like that).

MDMarra

14:02

right but that generally leads to windows admins learning some linux

not to a unix guy taking over

ewwhite

Leads to my pockets! $$

Nathan C

We have a majority of Windows servers and two linux servers. One's for mail, the other's for nagios/small projects

ewwhite

So when you go to virtualize, do you think, "oooh, Hyper-V looks compelling?"

Cole

I can see Hyper-V in a lot of non-profit/SMB areas.

ewwhite

But at the small scale VMware is cheap.

Nathan C

14:04

@ewwhite not really, we use VMware ESXi

Cole

But Hyper-V is free and with more features than say - VMware vSphere Essentials

ewwhite

$Free or $500 or $4500... those tiers cover 90% of business use cases.

Ryan Ries

I truly do find Hyper-V attractive

MDMarra

@ewwhite think of it like this

I go into a shop that you're bidding VMware to

typical produce client

I pitch a few windows server datacenter licenses and SMB storage for VMs

Nathan C

Oooh, Azure's offering trials of server 2012

MDMarra

14:06

mine is the cost of hardware and windows they'd be buying already

Yours costs that plus 10k and accomplish the same thing

plus they get more features with hyper-v like storage live migration

ewwhite

They wouldn't be buying the Windows :)

Ryan Ries

@NathanC My blog is a Server 2012 VM on Azure... costs me $10/mo

MDMarra

@ewwhite Assume a level playing field where you abide by licensing terms and conditions :)

ewwhite

the $4500 tier of VMware snuck storage vmotion in.

MDMarra

The FREE Hyper-V supports it

Nathan C

14:07

Yeah, they have a 90-day trial for one VM (750 compute hours)

ewwhite

@MDMarra but businesses like this don't abide by licensing terms...

Nathan C

If only I didn't burn my free year with AWS

ewwhite

I couldn't get one client to buy Windows datacenter (even though that's what they needed)

Hell, I couldn't get them to buy RHEL either

(not that anyone should)

MDMarra

@ewwhite Ok, so your shady customers aside. Imagine normal customers of their size

Ryan Ries

lol

Nathan C

14:08

RHEL is just CentOS with enterprise support anyway

MDMarra

Two choices: two servers a small SAN or DAS, windows licenses, and vSphere licenses. or Three servers, windows licenses, done.

who do you think they'd choose

ewwhite

Nah, Windows virtualization still isn't compelling.

Cole

@MDMarra I completely agree. From working in mostly mid-sized manufacturing plants, it's very attractive and an easy sell.

MDMarra

@ewwhite Do you really think your clients care?

It's not compelling to you who is selling

ewwhite

that's an up-front cost... ongoing maintenance and management.

MDMarra

14:10

I bet if you start presenting both to clients, they'll pick Hyper-V more times than not

ewwhite

More likely to find a VMware expert.

Dan

Most people think VMware is very expensive

MDMarra

@ewwhite They log into it and it's a windows server. They can point and click

Dan

Give them a choice and, ignoring person favouritism, most will end up going Hyper-V

ewwhite

$free, $500, $4500 ---> $expensive

MDMarra

14:10

The management barrier is lower to dumbasses in Hyper-V

ewwhite

But remember, my customers are always 50% or more Linux in their environments.

(in terms of what gets virtualized)

Dan

Seriously, man, VMware are going to have to shift some features down to Ent Plus I think

MDMarra

sure. and rhel is supported

Travis

Our entire virtualization environment was under $50k

all VMware with fibre channel SAN

ewwhite

@Dan VMware is expensive for the good stuff... but at that tier, people should be leveraging other things. Going through a good vendor.

Dan

14:12

Even so, it's not exactly cheap

And like @MDMarra says, Hyper-V with a Datacenter license is going to look real good

ewwhite

@Dan SMBs don't need more than three hosts usually, right?

Dan

Usually :)

Cole

I've worked for some SMBs with 10+

ewwhite

so that caps your VMware costs... growing beyond that is more expensive.

MDMarra

But with Essentials, they're locked in to three with a large cost to forklift out of it

Dan

14:13

Yeah, so it's not a cap - it forces them to scale up not out

Which isn't great

ewwhite

@MDMarra there's an upgrade path..

Nathan C

Oh my..Azure's interface is so ...slidy.

MDMarra

@ewwhite a pricey one

Dan

@ewwhite Two lots of Ent Plus servers :D

ewwhite

But a lot of people do bad VMware design and don't understand how to meter...

or size appropriately.

Nathan C

14:14

We're on ESXi 4 still ...48 GB of RAM in the host box and it's buzzing along happily

I thought the limit was 32 GB...

Dan

Yeah, we know a lot of people do bad things - but it doesn't change how stuff is

MDMarra

@NathanC It is on ESXi 5 if you're unlicensed

If you're licensed, vRAM entitlements went away with 5.1

Nathan C

Ah.

ewwhite

but a $500 license eliminates that

Nathan C

Yeah, we actually have a license for ESX but it's just not applied...haven't decided when we're gonna upgrade to 5

since that all has to be done after-hours :/

TheCleaner

14:16

@JennyD Looks good to me. That's what I concluded after our chat but started off confusing myself before we talked. I agree 100%.

Dan

@NathanC Not got vMotion and redunancy? Should be seamless :D. No, ignore me, I'm an idiot

ewwhite

Looking at a new customer environment...

Cole

Holy shit, 91% waste

Dan

Sounds like SO

Cole

Curious what our environment would look like.

Nathan C

14:17

Hm, what's that app by chance @ewwhite

@Dan Not yet ...we only have one host right now. The second box is likely going to be in the next couple months

Cole

urg too many tabs open

Dan

@NathanC I updgraded someone from ESX a few months back

Oold

ewwhite

@NathanC It's called vCenter Operations Manager

Cole

Man our DCs are busy

MDMarra

@TomTom I don't really feel like getting into a comment war with you here, since you tend to fly off of the deep end very quickly, but perhaps you were reading the question differently than I was. I read this as the OP looking for storage software that would allow him to cluster Hyper-V hosts, not do storage clustering/mirroring. English isn't the OP's first language, so I very well could have misunderstood the intent. Perhaps you're better at "interpreting" than I am. Either way, you should consider being less of a dick. — MDMarra 8 secs ago

Nathan C

14:20

Ah, that expensive software.

ewwhite

@NathanC it's included now... but different licenses unlock different features.

Nathan C

Ah I see. This job's actually the first exposure I've had to vSphere and such so learning is part of things

Cole

@MDMarra HA

ewwhite

all good in MY environment.

Cole

@MDMarra I don't understand "Oh, answer from a mathematician"

MDMarra

14:24

no clue

Cole

@ewwhite dayum son.

MDMarra

English isn't his first language. Angry is.

5

Cole

I wonder if there's any other tools that can do that, aside from Ops Manager.

@MDMarra sounds like it.

The Internet is serious business, as you know.

ewwhite

@Cole VMware bought it from another company.

Nathan C

Oh...right...I forgot they want you to register to download anything

and i don't have our company's login details :[

Cole

14:26

Might DL the free trial

@NathanC it's a free trial - make a personal account.

That's what I do

ewwhite

Cole

My incisions hurt today, jesus fuck.

ewwhite

Lots of charts and graphs to appease decision makers.

Bob

hi!

I was wondering if you guys might want this question?

ewwhite

Hmm, looks like I need more RAM...

tombull89

14:29

@Bob Looks similar to a couple of questions there's been here recently.

Saying that, you've pretty much answered it already.

Cole

Urg, vOps Manager is a Virtual Appliance. VMware guy will be like WHAT ARE YOU DOING COLE

They don't like me much

2

and by much, I mean at all

Dan

:(

ewwhite

@Cole it's two Linux VMs

Cole

Look at all the fucks I give.

Dan

Honest truth, I had a dream about you the other night. I need to spend less time on SF

MDMarra

14:31

@Dan Hahaha great comment

ewwhite

one for anal... one to watch.

2

Cole

@ewwhite oh I know, but RESOURCES

I dream of @MDMarra's beard.

2

Dan

@MDMarra I expect he'll enjoy it

Cole

I like how you can tell the level of anger is rising by how many typos there are in his replies.

tombull89

I wonder if TomTom voted in the election.

Dan

14:33

I see him as essentially punching his keyboard

Bob

@tombull89 Ah, ok. I wasn't sure if my answer was complete enough, since he mentioned he's running some kind of web hosting. I won't mention migration, then. Thanks.

Dan

Just organised our engagement photo shoot, I'm quite nervous now

The only photo shoots I've engaged in previously have been with me behind the camera and the gi....nevermind

3

Nathan C

@Dan "paint me like one of your french girls?" :>

Dan

@NathanC Are you girl? If not, no.

Nathan C

haha

Cole

14:36

lol recruiter emails me, I respond. He then says "I saw you were at NetApp for a little do you know <my manager from netapp>? I'm helping him with his job search." lol too funny

tombull89

I noticed TomTom has been fairly quiet recently.

Adrian

@tombull89 nail that sticks up gets pounded flat?

Nathan C

why does the operations manager have to be a VM :(

meh, i can just toss it in virtualbox and call it good

tombull89

@Cole If you want him to spell check his answers, that'll cost ya'.

@mfini - get real. First, I spell check when I want. Want me to spell check - that is 150 USD per started hour. When you pay? Second, simply said, of all the about 200 build agents I know in about a dozen companies all of them are IO bound and oerload a single disc. Even if you run a single threaded compiler - you will run multiple agents in parallel pretty soon, so you hit random load on the disc which makes the disc slow. Game over, per definition. You can ignore reality, neither reality nor me care. — TomTom Mar 21 '12 at 6:28

Dan

I so want to know what he does and where he works

ewwhite

14:38

@Dan I tried to connect him with my old boss.

@NathanC it should be a VM...

uses vCenter APIs

Dan

I can't shake the feeling that ServerFault is something of an outlet for him to feel good. He's clearly technically competent, but I hypothesise that he's not let the free reign at work he'd like

Nathan C

oh, so i should install it on the vSphere host?

Dan

@ewwhite Did you succeed?

tombull89

@Dan I wonder if he's seen the MSF threads about the direction the site is going.

ewwhite

@Dan my old boss has the same personality... TomTom is a German living in Poland. my boss was Polish living in Germany. TomTom wants to get into financial trading... US markets.

Cole

14:40

@tombull89 HAHA

ewwhite

not high-frequency, but more quant-based algorithmic trading

mfinni

@tombull89 And one of his mis-spellings was of my handle...

Cole

ugh I ate too much bacon this morning

mfinni

@Cole NO SUCH THING

Nathan C

I flagged his comment on the question about voting to close it

Cole

14:44

@mfinni tell that to my heartburn

Nathan C

Doesn't seem appropriate...

Jenny D

@Cole that's too little $medication, not too much bacon

Cole

I need to up my bacon intake.

Could have been the texas style french toast

mfinni

@Cole Perhaps there are exercises you can do to strengthen the pyloric valve...

Adrian

@DennisKaarsemaker You hear any update? At least one you can talk about. =)

John K

14:45

Did someone say bacon?

mfinni

@Cole That. I vote the sticky starches were the problem. Pasta kills me, it's not the sauce.

Cole

@mfinni yeah bread/pasta kills me

I need to stop drinking soda/eating shitty food again

I didn't drink soda for 6+ months or eat fast food for 8

Fell off after my surgery

Oh dear lord, one of the sys admin's just had to ask how to give certain users full control on a folder and everyone else read access.

Sometimes I wonder if the stupid questions on SF are coming from my coworkers.

Adrian

@Cole I sometimes wonder how those people get jobs.

Jenny D

@Cole I'm fairly certain at least one of mine couldn't figure out how to post the question. Or understand any answer he might conceivably get.

Nathan C

Well that didn't take long. I signed up for the trial of Azure and immediately get a phone call from the azure team about what i'm using it for

Jenny D

14:49

A few minutes ago:
Me: "So did you ever actually read and follow those instructions I gave you?"
He: "No, why?"

Cole

@Adrian I can tell you how this one did. He came off the manufacturing floor - worked up from help desk to desktop support. My manager liked him and they were friends, so he promoted him to sysadmin, everyone in the IT group told him not to.

@JennyD wow.

Jenny D

@Cole Only 37 days to go now...

Cole

Dying.

Adrian

@JennyD Until your vacation or departure of said co-worker?

Cole

He was like "I have to add every user in the domain and give them read access?" other sys admin "no add the everyone group" him "I cant find that"

Jenny D

14:51

@Adrian Until I quit. I'm working out my notice here.

Adrian

@JennyD Ah. Hopefully there's a little vacation in it for you then. =)

Nathan C

...and Azure...they charge more for Linux virtual machines

:O

Jenny D

@Adrian Yes, I've scheduled two months between jobs this year. I really really need it.

Nathan C

@Cole Wouldn't the right group be "Authenticated Users" so non-domain people couldn't access it?

Cole

@NathanC they want non-domain people to access it

Adrian

14:52

@NathanC Yeah, I would make sure that you also have very good and well-tested disaster recovery strategies in place.

Cole

i.e. outside consultants

Adrian

@NathanC Not naming names to protect the innocent, but I don't exactly trust Azure.

Nathan C

I'm using it to test Server 2012 really

Since it'll take a good 4+ hours to download the image ...I'll do that at home where my net's faster

@Cole Ah, makes sense then.

Adrian

@NathanC that's good. some of the people involved in the decision making for that division couldn't find their ass with both hands and approach radar.

Cole

@NathanC yar.

But my point is, you're a SYS ADMIN. You've been part of the group for 3+ years and you don't understand NTFS and Share permissions?

Nathan C

14:55

I'm trying to figure out what the free limits are...

ewwhite

EDIT: I am asking for software only solutions, can deal with hardware and actually I have servers and boxes with SSD already.

Nathan C

According to the warnings I get when I select A6 and A7 I can have an XL VM for free no issue

ewwhite

So I've been reading this New York times article: Unexcited? There May Be a Pill for That

@JennyD I'd like your opinion. (sorry to put you on the spot)

Cole

@ewwhite well then

Jenny D

@ewwhite I'll look at it

ewwhite

14:58

@JennyD Thank you.

@Cole Yessss?

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