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15:00
I ran my business off of an ASA 5505 for years.. moved to a 5510 because I finally hit the limits.
If you need more than an ASA5505, the 5510, 5520, and 5550 are each progressively more capable too
what would happen if i use a home router for 100 devices? what is the bottleneck there? and why do these enterprise level perform better?
@lamp_scaler don't.
@lamp_scaler seriously, don't.
I'm suggesting a $500-$700 device here.
15:00
a home router doesn't have the capacity to handle that many devices
but what is it that constitute "capacity" of a router for devices?
@lamp_scaler Home routers typically only support a few thousand connections simultaneously, like 2048, which a few dozen computers can saturate.
I have a basic Linksis jobby at the home lab, flashed with DDWRT. It chokes on more than 5 devices.
also very little in terms of ability for you to do any trouble shooting when (not if) you have problems with it
@lamp_scaler Backplane, cpu, memory
15:01
so simultaneous connections is a key spec to look for in a router?
@lamp_scaler Home routers have slower (usually MIPS) CPUs, tiny amounts of RAM, you can't configure NAT hairpins on them (even though @ewwhite won't on his ASAs either!), and they're just plain not built to be reliable
@lamp_scaler It is with 100 computers behind it. Are you looking for any capabilities other than getting 100 computer onto the net?
@lamp_scaler You really shouldn't look at anything else.
I'll say it now. Enterprise stuff is expensive, very so, but with a good support contract, plus warranty, plus it's designed for the stuff you're trying to do it's worth it.
@lamp_scaler Seriously, an ASA 5505 is probably the cheapest you should go if you care about doing this in any semblance of "correctly"
proper networking equipment is expensive for a reason
15:03
Home routers rarely support vLANs, any sort of ACL security, VPNs, console management, monitoring, failover...
Don't use Sonicwall.. that's the biggest mistake I see.
so feature set of the firmware is also where the pricing comes in?
Or buy a Belkin SOHO bit of kit and we'll see you back here when you have performance issues. In which case we'll close it as off-topic for home hardware :P
but let's go back to simultaneous connections. you are saying that if my computer is running multiple connections, it will do what to the network?
@lamp_scaler The Cisco ASA5505 Operate the same way as the more expensive units. You go from $500 to the next tier at $2500...
15:04
Also, ASA5505 on eBay are cheaper... if you can swing that. Doesn't come with the warranty however.
@lamp_scaler Every computer connecting to the Internet will have a few dozen connections (or more) open for various things. If the firewall/router can't handle that many then either the old ones are dropped or the new attempts are dropped.
tl;dr if someone torrents on your network you can saturate a home router and kill connections for everyone. If you use a decicated unit such as an ASA and proper switches you can handle more connections and with proper switches implement traffic management and policies.
i see. i once asked a similar question and a response i got was that the connections are handled by the router: serverfault.com/questions/495045/…
quote: "Max connections - unless you use NAT, a router has no concept of "connections". A connection is not needed to route packets"
i mistyped. i meant, "connections aren't handled by the router"
I can only guess that he meant something like the 5505 with the "20M to 50M, no problems" comment. I've never seen a Linksys or Buffalo that could do more than a few thousand. The typical house only has a couple computers online at the same time, those devices are built to be as cheap as possible....
right... this shouldn't be an argument.
The family belkin is laughably low, think it's 512. One desktop, two laptops, two smartphones and an Xbox was enough to kill performance.
15:09
@lamp_scaler You can try other options... but the advice being given here is based on real-world experience.
i see.
so a 500-700 dollar range is a minimum requirement for my type of setup?
Yes.
okay. then i have to factor in switches.
I think you have room on switches.
Cisco are expensive as fsck...
so I use HP ProCurve when Cisco is out of range.
i heard about smart-managed switches. are those really necessary if i can control things via the router?
15:11
lifetime warranty, most of the features...
what's your budget, and how much do you need to connect?
@lamp_scaler To ensure it will work; yeah. You can cut costs with used equipment, but not all that much.
im buying switches based on devices per area. so i need about 2 switches that can cover a few departments, meaning about 24 ports per.
then a big switch (48 port) for a bigger department.
HP 2910...
I'm all about ProCurve switches and WiFi gear... ProCurve routers are actually 3Com, and I've not heard great things.
what's the budget?
15:13
ProCurve 2524 FTW!
100-200 dollars. will that work?
100-200 dollars per switch
The cheapest you can go is the ProCurve 1800-series.
"smart-managed"
my question is, do i really need smart-managed?
^Gigabit and New
What speed switches are you looking for?
why cant that "managment" work be offloaded to the router?
15:14
The management aspects allow for per-port configurations. The router isn't aware of switch ports generally
what constitute an environment needing gigabit?
most today.
There's no reason for anything less than gigabit.
say for example i have 3 different deparments. each department should have their own bandwidth limits and internet site visiting restrictions. one router cant handle that type of management?
I don't think you're understanding what a "router" is
You're thinking of a Linksys box with like 4 ports or something
15:16
@lamp_scaler Then you offload the internet browsing with a dedicated web filter unit.. SOmething like a Barracuda Web Filter 310
That's a router with a switch built in
so ur saying a router or a firewall device costing 500-700 dollars dont have a switch built in?
Nope. Our Firewall has 4 ethernet ports.
i thought it should have switching capabilities built in
@lamp_scaler Network hardware usually falls into a few categories
Piece of shit box ($100 or under): Lousy firewall glued onto a cheap switch. Might be "gigabit" if you're lucky, might not be able to give gigabit throughput on all ports.
Cheap All-In-One box ($500ish): Might combine a firewall and a switch, might actually not suck too bad. Cisco makes stuff in this category.
Real Enterprise Hardware: Expect to spend a few hundred for the switch, and a more for the firewall
15:22
So sick of AD account lockouts. Stupid Domino
@voretaq7 so what type of stuff is in the 100 - 500 dollar range?
@lamp_scaler Up until you cross the $500 threshold? mostly Linksys and Netgear crap that you shouldn't be running in production environments
Our firewall splits into two and goes off to two CISCO 4900M Core switches. These cost around £6000. And we have two of them.
and for the 500ish range. the all-in-ones can provide these switching capabilities, so therefore i can go with just having unmanaged switches right?c
@tombull89 how many devices does that type of network ur talking about support?
@Cole while ( $true ) { Search-ADAccount -LockedOut | Unlock-ADAccount }
15:24
we only need to support up to 100 devices for now
@jscott yeah but I need to find out from where
Sometimes it's not Domino though :/ usually it is
@lamp_scaler We currently handle around 1000 devices. These would likely handle double or triple that - granted you don't need to spend that much money.
but if it goes through the load balancer the caller computer shows that IP and then I have no idea where it's coming from.
@lamp_scaler Then you're in the enterprise hardware range. Expect to spend substantial money.
Our other two switches are CISCO 3750E and 2960G units. Again, expensive, but I haven't had any expereince with anything else.
15:27
The pieces of shit can handle MAYBE 5 machines (on a good day, with the moon in the right alignment)
The cheap stuff can handle roughly as many as they have ports for, but really shouldn't be scaled much above that.
After that you're looking at dedicated firewalls (or a FWSM in a chassis) and dedicated switches with a well-designed architecture (or switch blades in a chassis).
i see. thanks for the advice guys. my takeaway right now is that as we go into enterprise level, these devices start to specialize. and then they get expensive fast. and the spec i need to look for in terms of stability is max concurrent connections. is that right?
@lamp_scaler There's no one thing you look at to determine "stability"
@voretaq7 then what are the essentials? top 3.
@lamp_scaler it's not that simple. If it were nobody would hire netadmins - they'd buy networking hardware like they buy cars ("38 packets to the gallon and it can do 2 gigabits if you have a big enough pipe to open it up!")
@voretaq7 we dont have netadmins for now. so i will have to make due with serverfault. and we are planning to move pretty soon.
15:34
Your router has to be adequately sized to handle the routing table it's going to be dealing with.
Your firewall has to be adequately sized to handle all your rules.
If you have a content switch or other load balancer it needs to be able to deal with (a) the traffic and (b) the rulesets you're going to define.
Your switches need to be able to move packets as fast as they arrive (which is environment dependent - some environments can get away with a cheap gig-E switch that barely has gigabit internal switching capacity.
lamp_scaler I'm back to my refrain - what you are asking is "take years of experience and training and condense it to a checklist for me".
7
@lamp_scaler Server Fault is not a consultant - we can't do your network architecture for you (gee I was just having this conversation somewhere :-)
@voretaq7 i understand. but it at least is better than making blind decisions. so im appreciative of that.
@voretaq7 Oh gosh, SFaaC (Server Fault as a Consultant) -- Some agents try to help you in earnest. Others scream at you, kick you and take your money. YMMV.
@jscott I like this idea
15:42
@ChrisS you use Hyper-V right?
Yep, still on 2008R2; I suppose my laptop has 3.0...
if i wanted to check how many connections my computer is using on the network, what linux command do i use?
Using CSVs or individual LUNs per VM?
@lamp_scaler netstat
netstat and just count the rows?
15:43
netstat is deprecated. use ss :)
just kidding, but not really
` netstat -f inet -n` will show connections "right now" (append | wc -l to get a number)
wtf rhel
do i need to count these?
udp46 0 0 . .
@MDMarra like ifconfig and ip muscle memory wins every time
@lamp_scaler that's up to you and depends on your requirements
Be careful taking that number too literally, as it's only a snapshot of what the computer's doing "right now" and might be a poor reflection of actual use.
15:45
i understand. just getting a basic range of how many connections per computer uses.
to buy the right router
@MDMarra Most VMs are in a CSV, some have individual LUNs
@lamp_scaler You're measuring the wrong thing.
@ewwhite seriously?
People here have given you a specific recommendation. Why aren't you interested in that information?
mostly because there are many vendors. im getting mostly cisco recommendations. i just want to know what specs i should be looking for
15:46
@ChrisS Lets say you have a VM on an individual LUN and it's not configured for HA. The server hosting that VM dies. What do you do to bring it up on another server?
Just present the LUN to the other server, rescan for disks, and import into Hyper-V?
@lamp_scaler We don't look and say, "oh this supports X connections"... You sound as though you're in the realm of a Cisco ASA 5505.
and for your budget, it makes sense.
$500-$700
@lamp_scaler There's a reason you come into a room of networking professionals and get almost exclusively Cisco recommendations. Don't take that lightly.
You also got ProCurve recommendations for your switches because of your budget
@ewwhite "Unfortunately, no one can be told what The Matrix is. You have to see it for yourself."
got your point.
So it's not like everyone here is Cisco employees or something
15:48
what do u guys think of Huawei and H3C?
@ChrisS maybe, maybe not.
@MDMarra Er, I suppose I'd map the LUNs and recreate the VM Config as best I could.
you can't just do an import on the new host after assigning the disk?
(this is for a client that just called, hair on fire, because the hyper-v host with a dag member and the dag witness died)
If you exported the VM on the old box.
And no one here knows Hyper-V
Old box is dead, but the VM was on a SAN that's still fine
@lamp_scaler I'd rather buy Extreme
15:51
Yeah, you'd have to map the LUNs and recreate the best you can. The VM Config is stored in a XML file on the Host, so if that's dead the New host has no way of knowing the configuration
ohhhhh
the config isn't stored with the VM?
I know it is with CSVs
Not by default
@lamp_scaler If you're just looking for the cheapest think you can find, Extreme has a very low cost-per-port and I have experience with them in a large environment
In my experience they've very reliable, but there's no mindshare
If you hit a problem, there's no one to ask
CSVs require the Clustering Service, which keeps a copy of the Config, but the hosting server still has a copy of the config in C:\ProgramData\Microsoft\Windows\Hyper-V\Virtual Machines by default.
No one uses them except @ewwhite and a bunch of universities :)
@ChrisS ah
that makes sense
thanks for clearing that up
15:53
@MDMarra Our Extreme switch crashed.
haha
We had a black diamond core die, but that's just because it was only ordered with one of whatever the Extreme equivalent of a Supervisor module is
@ewwhite was it an extreme crash?
@voretaq7 *nix bug
we added an ACL and the switch core dumped and rebooted.
@ewwhite . . . :clap:
15:56
taking down 200 VMs...
16:07
@ewwhite Don't exaggerate. They were all running
Just...no ocnnectivity
@MDMarra NFS...
lol@NFS
The Extremes are our storage switches.
@robinH You're not buying from the right sources. Nobody pays retail on that gear. Come to Server Fault Chat to learn... — ewwhite 18 secs ago
Afternoon fuckers
3
Afternoon
16:11
This smells like spam but I can't find a smoking gun.
0
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userYou might want to look at the link below for PHP 5.4: http://www.codingsteps.com/install-apache-2-4-php-5-4-php-apc-on-amazon-ec2-with-amazon-linux/ If you do not need PHP 5.4 and PHP 5.3.x will do, then check out: http://www.codingsteps.com/install-apache-php-apc-mysql-on-amazon-ec2-with-amazon...

Blog post was posted this morning. Linked from two answers by the same user within the last hour.
Maybe it's his blog post and he wants views?
@ewwhite link noob
[chat] auto links to SF chat
Go fix it!
@Cole Quite likely, but usually I look for the username to be the same as the one who owns the blog or something like that.
I can't edit comments, fool!
16:27
@Ladadadada Yep, smells spamy but no clear evidence.... so, he's getting the standard link-no-quote treatment.
I'm trying to figure out operation's master roles, I know that there must be exactly one of each forest wide operation's master, and that there must be at least one of the domainwide operation's master, but is it possible to have more then one of each type of domain wide operations master? I've looked on a few sites but no-one mentions this (probably because it's "too obvious")
@Jikag Do you have a single-domain forest, or multiple domains in your forest?
@MDMarra I don't have either, I'm studying to learn how this works, but let's say I have multiple domains in my forest
then you'll have one schema master, one domain naming master, and as many of the other three roles as your have domains (one set of each per domain)
@Jikag support.microsoft.com/kb/324801?wa=wsignin1.0 <-- Explains what they do in very generic terms, their scope, where to view what server has the role, and how to transfer them.
16:34
You can't have two RID Masters in the same domain, for example. But if you have two domains, you'll have two RID Masters, one in each.
So there's never a situation where you would say, put two RID masters in one domain?
you cant
you're prevented from doing that
@Jikag From the linked page: Relative ID (RID) Master: The RID master is responsible for processing RID pool requests from all domain controllers in a particular domain. At any one time, **there can be only one domain controller acting as the RID master in the domain.**
So it's an "exactly one" rule and not a "minimum of one rule", that makes sense
@Jikag Domain Controllers are generally multi-master peers, meaning that anything one can do, the others can do. The reason that FSMO roles exist is because there are a handful of things that can't work in this situation, like RID Pool issuance, Schema modification, authentication tie-breaking, etc. This is why these roles exist. They're there for when a single server must serve a specific purpose
16:38
Alright, I'll finish reading those pages, but this already makes a lot more sense to me, thanks for your help @MDMarra @ChrisS :)
@Jikag Not to toot my own horn, but this might help as well
46
Q: What is Active Directory and how does it work?

MDMarra This is a Canonical Question about Active Directory. What is Active Directory? What does it do and how does it work? I find myself explaining some of what I assume is common knowledge about it almost daily. This question will, hopefully, serve as a canonical question and answer for most b...

@MDMarra That really is a good write-up. Where did you copy it from?
2
My brain!
I link to my sources throughout :)
Just messing with you... =]
haha I know
phew, thay Hyper-V issue got pawned off on one of the Exchange engineers
since the call that came in was actually about a downed DAG
16:45
@MDMarra That is a great post, I'm going to refer to it often
Thanks! That's what it's there for
I've got notes pinned to my cube all over the place. The FMSO roles used to be one of them.
You shoul try OneNote :)
@MDMarra Evernote :P
I use OneNote extensively. Somethings are just nice to have on paper
16:47
@Tanner "Print to OneNote" is the killer feature that keeps me from switching
I can print any document directly into a OneNote notebook and then mark it up with notes on top of it
Hmmm
Didn't know about that one.
I do it for manuals all the time. I have about 20MB of System Center manuals in a onenote notebook and my notes are on top of them for install instructions, caveats, divergences in reality from "best practice" :)
Evernote is way better on iPad, so I'd love to switch, but I can't.
Yeah, Evernote sucks at documents. You can attach a PDF but...
OneNote for iOS is a bagbiter, but I try to leave work behind when I'm away from work...
I can barely write by hand, so I use Evernote for things outside of work as well.
16:58
. . . I use a notebook.
Am I weird?
I have notebooks at home...
I frequently sketch concept drawings, EverNote and OneNote have nothing on a pencil and paper.
@ChrisS The electronic tools are generally inferior to pen and paper
@voretaq7 Unless you actually need to search for something
Same for paper and pencil.
@voretaq7 how does it integrate with the cloud?
17:10
@DennisKaarsemaker Like I said... your regex is causing issues...
I think...
So I'm using...
if ( $name[$r][$i] !~ /[0-9]/ || $name[$r][$i] =~ /c[0-9]d[0-9]$/ || $name[$r][$i] =~ /zd\d+/ ) {
                    $dsk_rio_t[$r]  += $rdops[$r][$i];
                    $dsk_wio_t[$r]  += $wrops[$r][$i];
                    $dsk_rblk_t[$r] += $rdsct[$r][$i];
                    $dsk_wblk_t[$r] += $wrsct[$r][$i];
I think I need a $
@MDMarra well
when I'm done with the notebook I can burn it
and the smoke will rise and become part of the cloud
@voretaq7 Sound's like you need better data security, if everything you get rid of ends up in the cloud where anyone can look at it.
The man has a point, @voretaq7
MSSQL...2000?!
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@MDMarra Coast is frustrating.
17:17
I forget which one they are at this point
Are they one of the pending ones?
They turned off the new DHCP server and DNS.
said it was handing out IPs used by the phone system
I had to tear everything apart and go back to 199.3.63.x IP scheme
Are they the ones with a million shares or are they the ones with like 10 buildings?
All the locations
fun times
Did I still have pending work to do there?
or was it just create the AD structure and users?
@MDMarra potentially, but there's the matter of their lack of a domain that's an issue
17:20
oh right
@MDMarra No he doesn't. C''mon @Jikag - everyone knows the cloud is where data goes to die.
2
@MDMarra I'm going to run and find a food truck!
Benefit to being in NYC
(Alternate answer: Meh)
@ewwhite enjoy
mmhmmm
17:24
(Philly food trucks are better)
I've never eaten food truck food
2
@Cole WHUT?
@MDMarra Your street meat is inferior to our falafel wagons
though you can get a proper cheesesteak off a food truck in Philly
@voretaq7 ya
I've never had falafel
@voretaq7 University City has a pretty good falafel wagon
@Cole WTF?
17:30
:(
Get out. Just... just leave. and don't come back until you've eaten something served to you by a middle eastern man in a wagon with a propane grill and a little generator to run the lights.
I dont even know what falafel is
We don't have food trucks in the 'burbs
@Cole where are you from?
Originally? Rhode Island
In the sticks, now in Franklin, MA - 'burbs of Boston
17:42
and neither of those places have falafels?
:crosses two more places off the "livable" list
Maybe they do
well Burrilllville doesn't where I grew up
Franklin probably does
I'm not sure what I like better, falafel or lamb gryo. Both yummo
@ScottPack you act like it's an exclusive or
@voretaq7 Were one to be liked better than the other? Yes, that would by definition be an exclusive or.
@ScottPack but why choose when you can have BOTH?
17:52
@voretaq7 I don't have your experience getting that much meaty goodness in my mouth.
@ScottPack Repeat after me: Om Nom Nom Nom Nom...
2
Om Nom Nom Nom Nom...
2
Om Nom Nom Nom Nom...
@JoelESalas I nickname thee "C-C-C-C-C-COMBO BREAKER!!"
17:58
@ScottPack Hmm, I was looking for a cat saying "omnomnom" on video
but
You know what I hate? When a script fails out, but then works when I enable verbose output.
@voretaq7 How about Teddy the Porcupine?
that's worth watching
@ScottPack Debugger. So named because the bugs go away when you bring it near
17:59
@ScottPack You know what I hate?

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