The Comms Room

Jacob

00:00

I like how people copy and paste my anwser...

voretaq7

@Jacob what? I gave up crime after college

Jacob

@voretaq7 I'm Chris Hansen have a seat over there...

coredump

Who the f* is chris hansen?

drpcken

lol

Jacob

Chris Hansen

Christopher Edward "Chris" Hansen (born March 26, 1959) is a United States television infotainment personality. He is well known for his work on Dateline NBC, in particular the former segment known as To Catch a Predator, which revolved around catching potential Internet sex predators using a sting operation. Career Chris Hansen became a reporter for Lansing NBC affiliate WILX in 1981 during his senior year at Michigan State University. Dateline NBC Hansen's notable work for Dateline includes coverage of the Columbine massacre, the Oklahoma City terrorist attack, the Unabomber and th...

drpcken

00:07

@Zoredache how do i know what capture length to use?

when trying to capture these packets on ASA?

Zoredache

The packets won't be much larger then your current MTU. Unless you have jumbo frams the size they suggest will probably be fine.

But then you rarely need anything more then just the headers (first ~60 bytes) to diagnose a firewall issue.

drpcken

and how do i know my destination host if i dont' know what IP the packets are trying to go to and come from? like the apple IP?

Zoredache

Statically set the IP of one of your internal devices, and just grab everything coming from that device.

drpcken

nevermind, will use any

yea

thanks

coredump

ahh I got it.

Bart Silverstrim

00:18

Jacob is quite obsessed with Chris Hansen...

coredump

NSFW I am not a predator

Holocryptic

@coredump Are you a NSFW Latin lover?

Jacob

AGHHHH I need 3 upvotes

drpcken

whoa, i've got a nice capture here

have no idea what i'm looking at

guess i need wireshark

Jacob

@drpcken Yeah that helps :)

Holocryptic

00:20

@coredump If so, what does it take to be a Latin lover? Please don't tell me I need to come from a country where a Latin based language is spoken. All I've got going for me is this whole Dutch/Indonesian thing.

Jacob

@Holocryptic Du zur blod...

:)

now upvote one of my answers :)

Holocryptic

Yes, I am kind of silly

It's how I avoid overdosing myself

Jacob

Food time

coredump

@Holocryptic you have to be raised on a place where women dress skimpy outfits. And where a latin language is spoken.

Holocryptic

@coredump Crap. I am so screwed.

drpcken

00:28

hmm so i have my capture, i copied and pasted it to notepad, saved it as .txt but wireshark won't open it

i saved it as a .cap but still won't recognize it

Zoredache

Yeah, I have never used the Cisco capture stuff myself. I tend to prefer a hub/span port connected to a box running Wireshark.

drpcken

think i missed the step where it exports as pcap, going to try again

coredump

tcpdump -s 0 -w file.cap is your friend

-s 0 is vewy important

drpcken

i do that in CLI?

Holocryptic

@drpcken this guy looks like he's got a multi step process for what you're doing: networktrainingpants.com/2009/04/…

coredump

00:35

@drpcken sorry you're not using linux right?

@drpcken that was a linux command.

drpcken

no :(

Holocryptic

http://www.networktrainingpants.com/2009/04/packet-capture-on-asa-part-2.html
http://www.networktrainingpants.com/2009/04/packet-capture-on-asa-part-3.html

drpcken

i got it into wireshark

coredump

network training pants lol

Why does everyone love those ASA firewalls?

Holocryptic

Meh. They're all I've dealt with so far. And I haven't even dug too deep into them either.

drpcken

00:40

ok so I see one Bad TCP

and a TCP RST

and 1 ICMP error to a dns request

but i have all the ip's that apple is using

going to check syslog for them

ok i see where it is blocking UDP on an apple IP

ip matches packet ip

but the apple ip is coming in as TCP, not UDP

darn, its not the same ip, but in the same range

WesleyDavid

I have just discovered that my life is being plotted against and DNS is the primary means of death.

drpcken

wait if an incoming ip is blocked at my public ip interface, then it won't show up in the capture right?

Holocryptic

@WesleyDavid Sounds like the intro to a Tom Clancy novel. Proceed.

@drpcken if you took the capture from inside, no.

drpcken

i bet thats teh problem then

i've got ip's in that range showing up in my syslog, but not in my capture

WesleyDavid

00:56

@Holocryptic Used Just switched namecheap from my DNS provider to my own nameserver, but apparently namecheap is still holding onto some records, because in spite of moving from them, the www subdomain hits their parking servers, not my own server. base domain is fine.

Jacob

@WesleyDavid Why not run DNS on your box?

Holocryptic

@WesleyDavid Clearly it's a conspiracy to end your life. You should just take off and nuke the entire site from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.

WesleyDavid

01:24

@Jacob I am running it on my own site. That's the problem, apparently I've got cached entries running around that have yet to be eradicated.

I ping my domain and within seconds I'll get a different IP

FTP actions queued up will sporadically fail as a new connection is made because suddenly it tries to connect to a totally different IP.

Jacob

thats an issue

WesleyDavid

Wow, this is freaky.

Jacob

NSFW youtube.com/watch?v=H4IyVYnH4aw

►

WesleyDavid

I just logged into the wordpress account on the domain in question. As I'm navigating my WP control panel, it will suddenly give my an IIS error because whatever server it's being redirected to is running IIS.

Jacob

thats funny

WesleyDavid

01:27

Everything is a freaking DNS issue.

Holocryptic

@WesleyDavid How long since you made the switch?

WesleyDavid

Last night, so that probably explains it.

Holocryptic

24-48 hrs, minimum

Is what I've been told

Or was it 48-72....?

Jacob

►

Holocryptic

Something like that

WesleyDavid

01:31

Nothing can compare to Freeman's Mind

►

I nearly wet myself only about a few dozen times when I first saw all of those.

Jacob

@WesleyDavid WWWWUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT

WesleyDavid

31 episodes so far,

It's been like 4 years that he's been making them.

That's where I get the line "We are BAD people!" if anyone wants to know.

=)

Jacob

Whats with the latain person for VZ 4G?

Holocryptic

Youtube and their commercials can tongue my hairy ass... just sayin'

WesleyDavid

My productivity has officially ceased since I'm now listening to Freeman's mind in the background

Holocryptic

01:36

"Robots are the only friends I need!"

WesleyDavid

hehehe

You haven't seen anything yet.

Jacob

not that funny

back to awesome doctor...

drpcken

02:09

holy crap i think i figured out the problem with ios updates

i think it is my csc ssm blocking them

i turned it of

off

and the updates worked immediately

i turned them on, and bam... no updates work

it actually made that sound 'bam'

Jacob

@drpcken why didn't you update OTA?

So close to this horrible day being over...

drpcken

02:25

over the air?

Holocryptic

@drpcken you probably have one component that's blocking the updates. It sounds similar to something I had with my web filter. I had HTTPS/SSL filtering set to "medium", and it blocked Windows activation. I set it to "low" and it went through fine. Start picking it apart and see what's causing it. And with that nugget, I'm off to bed.

drpcken

will do thank you

coredump

02:57

bujururu

Jacob

And it just hit me....

Jacob

04:08

Yeah! The worst day ever is finally over! WOO

coredump

It gets worse.

Jacob

@coredump Yeah, tomorrow is speech day....

coredump

?

Jacob

@coredump I have to speak in front of the entire 9th grade class

about my experience

I'm out, much too tired.. night all

packs

04:35

@WesleyDavid So, the process for making DNS changes is pretty important.

WesleyDavid

Night Jacob.

As soon as I show up you speak to me @packs. It's like... you're here with me.

packs

Method 1 -- The Slow Way
Slowly decrease the TTL record over time such that you're in the neighborhood of 1 minute just before the cut over. Make the switch, and set it back.

WesleyDavid

Yeah, I did it the scumbag way.

It's always scary posting on another stack exchange site.

Never knowing if you're going to get TomTom'd

packs

Method 2 -- Fuck The Slow Way
Set your TTL at 5 minutes or less. Now wait until your original timeout expires. Make the switch and set it back to something big.

Method 3 -- The Stupid Way
Make your switch. Now watch as everything is screwed up for the duration of your original TTL.

I like how TomTom is now a verb :)

Jacob

@packs Only true admins use method 3:)

@packs of course

WesleyDavid

04:39

Yeah, I method 3'd it for this site of mine.

packs

Assuming your name system is beefy enough, I typically see guys go with #2. It's easier.

WesleyDavid

I don't have direct control over my TTL though, but I bet I could talk the admins into changing it for me.

packs

Do you know the TTL off hand?

coredump

Not really

sysadmins plan to use the slow way

then get hushed to method 3 by lousy developers

WesleyDavid

3600 as per normal, methinkgs.

Nope, 14400 - 4 hours.

Dag nabbit.

packs

04:42

@coredump A lot of it depends on your original TTL and your workload, really.

If you're looking at 1 month (I've seen it) then yeah, the slow way is good.

WesleyDavid

48911 is a mighty odd TTL number O_o

You know what makes me really mad? When DNS admins don't honor TTL times. Usually ISPs and crappy web hosts - 98% of the DNS servers out there.

packs

Most of the same times I've seen, though, were 1 week, where #2 with an acceptably robust name system is usually fine.

WesleyDavid

Of the 2% that remains, 1% is OpenDNS.

packs

I would tell you exactly what I thought of OpenDNS and what I would like to see done to it, but we have children present.

WesleyDavid

Not a fan, hmm?

packs

04:45

No, I don't.

coredump

I have problems with a Cellular carrier here. No matter what TTL you use, they only invalidate the entries each 3 days.

packs

Crowd sourcing for information that is supposed to be authoritative does not seem all that ideal to me.

@coredump Now that is a novel method that I haven't heard of. Thanks guys.

hobodave

05:53

@coredump finally beat it on hard!

coredump

@hobodave yay

@hobodave I am right now on a fight that is so hard that I am not sure if I am to win it.

Chopper3

08:21

morning guys

Tom O'Connor

Hello from Barcelona

Iain

G'day

How's Barcelona ?

Tom O'Connor

Warm

about 12C, shame it's so damn humid

93%

Iain

eep

Tom O'Connor

my friend has insanely fast adsl here, 19 Down, 5M up

Iain

08:33

I'm ok with heat but humidity kils me

Tom O'Connor

yeah

it's Sticky.

Iain

Birthday today ?

Tom O'Connor

Indeed.

I'm 0x19

Chopper3

happy birthday dude

Iain

many happy returns - have a great day

Tom O'Connor

08:36

Thx

Vert

@TomOConnor Congrats ^^

Tom O'Connor

I think I prefer 0x19 to 0d25, and 0b11001 and 0o31

Chopper3

0o31

Tom O'Connor

but hey, I'm 1 in base 25..

Chopper3

ah, you added it :)

Tom O'Connor

08:38

The ASCII code for 25 is EM (end of medium) -- does this pertain to my waistline?

Iain

probably not

Tom O'Connor

I doubt it too, i've been 28" waisted for the last 10 years

Iain

waistlines expand till you realise you need to do something about them

Tom O'Connor

* must not log into work email *

must however, have a shower

Iain

@chopper3 I admire your self-restraint with the 'child'

Chopper3

08:43

hmm... the issue is that he works for accenture, I worked for them for a decade when they were andersen consulting and lots of the guys I joined with are now quite senior so I have a degree of...concern about the situation but unfortunately the project he's working on isn't a UK-owned one so my mates don't actually care too much and think it's funny that I'm being stalked by him

Chopper3

08:58

but still, nobody should be working on any cisco kit without at least some basic knowledge of serial comms right?

Robert Moir

happy birthday @Tom

Tom O'Connor

correct

who's this?

Robert Moir

And good morning all y'all

Tom O'Connor

hey @Robert, thanks :D

Iain

@Chopper3 I remember all the messing around with the filer too - I really don't understand how he got a job and keeps it

Robert Moir

09:04

@chopper is this guy you and iain are talking about that one that kept asking really really basic san questions?

Iain

@RobertMoir bingo!

Tom O'Connor

Oh, that question.

write mem ; reload

simples! </meerkat>

Chopper3

I use a lot of indian subcontractors and they have a culture of just putting everything they've heard of and even vaguely understand the basics of on their CVs, basically it's the CV with the most 'stuff' on it that generally gets the job over there. So when they come to the west and we say it talks about SANs we just assume that they know enough, I have to admit this took me 3-4 months to figure out and it's lesson I'm glad I learned, never trust their CVs, only their demonstrable knowledge

just a culture thing though, nothing in their intent

Tom O'Connor

Better yet, don't hire anyone east of germany?

there's a recruitment policy like that at work

it could almost be considered racist

but it just so happens that all the crummy CVs we get, are correlated with the further east they are

Chopper3

well I don't have a lot of choice really, I could have maybe 20-30 UK staff or 10 UK and 100 indians, and we need the man-power, just means you pay a bit more attention to recruiting

Tom O'Connor

09:08

*insert generic statement about only hiring brits to boost our own economy, yadda yadda *

Robert Moir

well this comes back to the farce i was talking about hiring programmers the other day. You always have to pay attention to hiring these days

Tom O'Connor

everyone is out to con you

we had a guy in who said he was an ace PHP guru

he was excellent (provenly excellent) at ruby

but his PHP was very rubylike, and litterd with : and || and <>

so, it was almost as if he'd just copypasta'd between them

and nothing would compile/interpret/run

Vert

@TomOConnor All languages are the same right? I'm decent at Python, I should be good at Ruby/PHP/JS.

Tom O'Connor

Yeah. Right, and Because I'm good at flight sim, means I can land an A380

Robert Moir

dear lord

Tom O'Connor

09:11

(actually.. )

Robert Moir

renewed my car insurance yesterday. That seems to have gone up big time with no real reason to justify it

Tom O'Connor

@RobertMoir Did you just straight-out renew, or shop around?

Vert

That happens BAD with us. Everyone claims to be an awesome network admin because they're a good sysadmin. I'm not sure why that particular model, but it's what's most prevalent around here (and it's hard to tell the diff before it's too late because the .mil likes to mix jobs).

Robert Moir

i looked around and found a place offering £120 off the price my current insurer quoted, but even this new place's charge is a fair increase over what i was paying before.

Tom O'Connor

@RobertMoir it's because of these spate of "staged" accidents

Robert Moir

09:13

always shopped around and got my current... well old now I guess.. insurer to match but they couldn't do it this time

Vert

@RobertMoir Redo the quote process with the same parameters and then take into a local office and make them explain to you why there's such a big difference.

take the printed results*

Robert Moir

well i've got a new insurer now so its a moot point now

Iain

@RobertMoir we did ours last month - went up £400 for 2 cars and 2 drivers - Jayne managed to get it down by £250 by phonig round anh haggling

Vert

@RobertMoir Couldn't or wouldn't?

Robert Moir

yeah

well from where I'm sitting, its the same thing Vert. I had other, better offers and I've been a steady customer for 15 years, so it was their loss

@Iain haggling is the key, I've saved so much money on things like that since learning how to do it!

Tom O'Connor

09:15

There's no loyalty anymore.

I have a dozen loyalty cards

for a dozen different stores,

Vert

@Iain is insurance typically expensive over there? Around here < 200USD is common.

Tom O'Connor

I've changed jobs 3 times in a few years, because the right thing to do is to switch.

no loyalty to anything.

Iain

@RobertMoir Jayne is a buyer haggling is second nature to her

Robert Moir

its funny, I used to argue like I was in an middle eastern bazaar over contracts at work for as long as I remember, quite happily but never thought to apply it to home and i really shoulda done it sooner

@Iain that helps, I don't think brits are geared up to haggling as a rule, it involves talking about money and we're embarassed to do that

Iain

@Vert our fully comp insurance with various protections cost £300 (or thereabouts) each

Tom O'Connor

09:17

Bert! This man won't 'aggle!

2

Robert Moir

@Vert, insurance over here can be VERY expensive if you're in the wrong group

but i'm in one of the "right" groups which is why it was such a shock

Tom O'Connor

like Under 25, with a Subaru Impreza WRX STI

I'm in one of the right groups now.

Robert Moir

@tom bet that really cost

Tom O'Connor

It wasn't me.

I had a 1.4 Polo

and that was £1700

Iain

ouuuuuch

Tom O'Connor

09:18

only had it for 12 months

Vert

@Iain @RobertMoir Wow. I have what's classified as a sports car in the US with full coverage. When I was 19 it was almost 350USD and now it's down to $180 USD. I had a wreck when I was 16, so that shot up my costs.

Tom O'Connor

then when i was 21, i bought a 1.1 saxo, and my insurance was £325

Vert

I'm under 25 as well.

Robert Moir

It's expensive to live in the UK, that's for damn sure

Chopper3

When I lived in London I had an Impreza and was in my early 30's and had 9 points - insurance was silly, now I'm not far off 42, live in dorset, no points and drive a diesel 4x4 my insurance is about £250/pa

Tom O'Connor

09:20

cool

@Chopper3 It's not a Landy Defender is it?

<3 those.

Chopper3

no but son's getting a 110 when he's 17, xc90

Tom O'Connor

I really want to buy a car, mostly to celebrate my birthday.. but it's stupid.

my partner works for one of the biggest car sharing companies in the world. So we get subsidised usage.

Robert Moir

wanting things isn't stupid. Buying every damn thing you want just 'cos you want it, however...

Tom O'Connor

@Chopper3 Cool. I always prefered the 90" wheelbase. Harder to get cross-axled.

@RobertMoir I'm actually tempted to get something insanely fun, like an Elise

Robert Moir

(sez the guy who blew a chunk of his overtime on an xbox 360)

Chopper3

09:22

check to fix, pretty safe, cheap to insure and expensive to fill up - perfect car for a 17yo

Robert Moir

cool

gotta love the lotus

Tom O'Connor

@Chopper3 yep. And they run well on chip fat.

@RobertMoir See, I'll either buy a car, or an insane new workstation PC

Robert Moir

LRs run on anything

Tom O'Connor

So do turbojet engines.

Robert Moir

well if its your birthday as long as its something fun...

Chopper3

09:23

@TomOConnor I actually raced a modified Elise for 3 races back in about 98, sponsored by Nortel Networks in fact who were a key sponsor of this thing called the Elise Motorsport Challenge - came second to last in 2 and third from last in 1 :)

Tom O'Connor

There's a video of one somewhere running on tar.

@Chopper3 Coooooooool.

Thank goodness it wasn't sponsored by Microsoft. Would've been crashing every 10 minutes.

Robert Moir

I did a lot of overtime when we moved the college to a new campus and worked tonnes of weekend and nights... earned a lot of overtime but spent most of it on house renovation, new tumbledrier, microwave, etc... so i got the xbox to make sure i got something fun out of giving up my time

Chopper3

it was a modified version with a centre seat, looked more like an exige but was actually more like an elise underneath - spent loads of time out in hethel, got to rag the nuts off just about every lotus they made at the time, including that one that was like a plastic bath

Tom O'Connor

@RobertMoir I wish I got paid overtime. I get time off in lieu. Which is why I'm in barna this week

Robert Moir

well normally we get time off in lieu too, but this wasn't a normal situation - we'd have earned something like 2 months time off in the 3 months we did the move and that would screw their staffing levels

time off is good too, always nice to relax

Chopper3

09:27

I only ever got overtime for the first four years of my career, after that it was always just expected

Robert Moir

yeah... that happens a lot too but there are some advantages to having a local govt. job

Tom O'Connor

I got it in my last job.

on-call allowance plus OT

OT was standard rate, except for weekends and holidays which was double time

Chopper3

@Iain 70 servers, 5 staff - ffs!

Tom O'Connor

then on-call allowance was 1 quid an hour for every hour i wasn't in the office

Robert Moir

70 servers, 5 staff? That seems.. generous

Tom O'Connor

09:30

when i worked in brighton, we were 4 (then 3) staff, and 200 servers

Chopper3

1

Q: System administration standard

I have been given the responsibility to manage a team of 4 system admins. They are managing 70+ servers. They don't yet have written processes/procedures/practices. I don't much about system administration. Is there a standard which we can follow to standardize our work or choose best practices?

Tom O'Connor

ITIL is the best way to make IT not fun anymore.

9

Chopper3

'suppose if they do 24x7 cover I understand the need

@TomOConnor you can say that again

Robert Moir

ITIL is what you make it. Most people seem to make it a massive bowl full of ass

3

Iain

adopt and adapt

Robert Moir

09:32

have i mentioned i'm itil qualified :p

Chopper3

like all that six-sigma stuff, I just glaze-over and switch off

Iain

I've passed the Foundation stuff

Robert Moir

uh huh

Tom O'Connor

Ugh. $work are always pushing the Agile method

it doesn't fit very well though

we're not a startup in silicon valley.

and we're not hipsters with fixed-gear bikes.

Robert Moir

i think methodologies can help where appropriate, adapt and adopt as needed just as iain says, but when people try and force it into an environment where it doesn't fit then chaos ensues

doesn't matter if you're talking about itil, agile or anything else

Tom O'Connor

09:37

Remember that job interview I had a few weeks ago?

Iain

the pen test one ?

Tom O'Connor

Still haven't heard back.

Chopper3

@TomOConnor the platform I've just delivered uses software from two companies, one does 90-releases, the other 2-3 per week - talk about a hard time dealing with them, thankfully I've handed it over so it's someone else's problem

Tom O'Connor

Yeah, that one :)

I just got reminded, as they were all hipsters with fixed-gear bikes too.

Iain

I keep toying with getting a fixie

Tom O'Connor

09:39

But.. the gears.. they do nothing!

I come from Malvern, the idea of one gear, is impossible.

Chopper3

I was in a cab in DC the other week and saw someone obviously new to those lock-in shoes/pedals just keel over at at set of lights :)

Iain

I'm going to do a round of the Malverns this summer for the fun of it - but I'll be using my compact chainset and 12/27 cassette

SmallClanger

Morning all.

Chopper3

hey

SmallClanger

I use SPDs. So far only come a cropper on them once. :)

Robert Moir

09:42

morning @smallclanger

Iain

@SmallClanger I spd too - everyone has a clipless moment eventually

Chopper3

I have a such a girlie bike, one of these combo jobs, may as well have a whicker basket with a kitten at the front, nice for following the coast though

Tom O'Connor

An Alan Whicker basket?

Chopper3

is that not how you spell it?

Tom O'Connor

wicker, for woven willow

whicker for the Alan

also, the noise horses make.

Iain

09:48

@TomOConnor have you cycled up the main road from Malvern to British Camp ?

Chopper3

ah

Robert Moir

good night last night, i should have more TPC therapy nights

Tom O'Connor

@Iain Not in years. Church street was always the beginning of the end for me :P

And cycling on Jubilee Drive. Scary as fuck.

Iain

I have no plans to go up Church street - I'll be coming up Cowleigh bank from by Knights Cider to get onto the A449. What's scarey about Jubilee Drive from your POV ?

Tom O'Connor

The cars cut the corners

Ah, Knight's Cider.. my brother loves that place, for their tasting sessions.

Iain

09:59

I believe tehy have recently sold out to someone else

Would I be safer going up the Jubilee drive and down the main road then ?

Tom O'Connor

It's not that bad, really. I'm just crap on 2 wheels.

View from my friend's flat

Jacob

10:27

Hello guys Good{Time_of_day}

Chopper3

hey

Tom O'Connor

hey Jacob

Vert

Has anybody read anything from O'Reilly's Head First Series? I'm thinking about buying the one covering SQL (I'm not too hot with DB's), but I'd like to know if anyone has any thoughts on the style/series.

Jacob

@TomOConnor EWWWWWIIEE Spain...

Chopper3

what time is TOO early to start drinking?

SmallClanger

10:32

@Vert. Got a lot of love for o'reilly books in general. Not sure about the HEad First ones.

Tom O'Connor

@Chopper3 It's 5pm somewhere on earth.

SmallClanger

I understand there's a saying about judging books by their covers, but I'm not sure I could get past that shower of gurning twats on the front of those books.

(oreilly.com/store/series/headfirst.html)

Vert

@SmallClanger Yeah, I've got a couple of their "In a Nutshell" books for commands and such, but I figured I'd try a "Head First". It seems like a book I could see myself reading for fun.

Chopper3

I hate the cisco books because of the cover dude

SmallClanger

Likely they're great, but they do look patronising.

Vert

10:38

@SmallClanger I would say they're definitely beginner of the beginner books, but I was looking for something that isn't dry. Something I could read while I relax, I suppose. Do you have any other ideas for something like that covering SQL lang?

Chopper3

maybe we should send a bunch of them to russia and india, kind of an aid package

Jacob

@Chopper3 Haha no, they take your jobs.... But luckily I don't have one :)

Chopper3

they wouldn't take mine, I've got tiger blood like charlie

Jacob

@Chopper3 Well no but they be taken my job"z"

Chopper3

true

SmallClanger

10:44

@Vert. Not particularly. Don't get me wrong, it's an o'reilly book, it's probably great. I'm just whinging at the presentation rather than the content. I'd go for it. :)

Vert

@SmallClanger Yeah, I'm sure I'll let you know what I think of the series. It's only $30, I'll try it out.

Tom O'Connor

I'd love to write an O'Reilly book... you can order the entire catalogue for free

Chopper3

what?

Tom O'Connor

If you write for O'Reilly, you can get all their books for Freeeee

Cakemox

@Vert I picked up the Java one in an attempt to understand the mindset of the Java developers I work with.

Chopper3

10:52

ah yes

if you know how to torrent you can get them for free too

not that I'm suggesting that

Tom O'Connor

For some reason, Randall Schwartz (Learning Perl fame) follows me on Twitter. Perhaps i'm interesting.

Or nobody told him I hate Perl .:o

SmallClanger

Maybe that's why?

Vert

@Cakemox I already ordered, but is it an easy read, yet still informative like I'm hoping?

@Chopper3 See? That's why we can't have nice things ;p

Cakemox

It's certainly an easy read. It's a little more rah-rah than I'd like, but it sure explains a lot about Java developers.

Then again, I'm not sure any programming language books admit their shortcomings.

And it certainly hasn't explained why developers insist on using Java for jobs better suited for a one-line shell script.

SmallClanger

Bash is Turing complete, though. Given a long enough line, you can do anything. :)

2

Robert Moir

10:59

for the same reason some people install windows enterprise to run a simple dns server, or for that matter spend ages fiddling with linux + wine to get MS office working instead of just installing windows

Cakemox

Because they're armed with only a hammer?

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