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14:00
@BrentPabst Fuck that. I had profs and TAs like that. Minor miracle they're still alive, and not someone's prison wife.
@HopelessN00b @Chopper3's answer and final comment are the best IMO
That comment = Fuck this.
In NC, we would have simply said... ok, bless your heart.
I think we need to create a new tag... NO-LOVE for stupid questions
Yeah, I said earlier that that comment was just pure gold. It really is.

Maybe I just think that because I said almost the exact same thing to our CTO a week back, to mean the exact same thing. (~"whatever, dumbass, shoot your balls off for all I care.") And he didn't catch on either, lol.
I am a bit surprised that one hasn't been totally closed yet
What I don't get is how you ask a question for help/suggestions and when a response is given your argue against each one
@hopeless @chopper3 Slight update. The client says that they feel like they know more than they used to... and are up to the challenge of building a Microsoft Exchange and AD infrastructure.
@ewwhite I see billables in your future
14:05
@ewwhite It's all very well about being up to the challenge, but are they capeable of doing it, and doing it right?
@tombull89 Who cares, charge more than usual to fix it.
@BrentPabst Idiot tax. Nice.
@tombull89 Well, that's my worry... am I being weird for thinking that there's some special sauce to my being able to do that type of work?
I don't want to penalize people or bill out of spite. It's not about the money...
@ewwhite No, its not very often admins get to dcpromo for a new forest, much like most devs have never done File->New Project
However, if you buy one of Stanek's bibles its really not that hard to setup a simple AD site.
Exchange on the other hand...
@ewwhite Naw. What Brent said, and also, I assume experience. You know you can do it right. odds of a first-timer getting right on attempt #1 << odds of you doing it right.
14:08
Well, slim, I think...
Yeah, it's a true mathematical statement, as ~0% is "much less than" ~100% :D
@ewwhite they bought a book then basically
@Chopper3 No, they haven't even done that.
Googled some shit?
At least, I hope.
Naw, because they are still talking about an 85-user Exchange install on bare-metal...
14:10
@ewwhite :6135310 No. You've spent a lot time and (probably) money in developing your skills and you know what to do and how to do it right. People should respect that and trust your judgement when you say they need help rather than them hoping they can bodge it.
Dan
Dan
@ewwhite Personally, if it were me, I'd just leave them to it. Explain you won't be upset or bitter, and that it's down to them how they want to proceed. Also add you'd be happy to come and help in future, for a fee obviously
Um, in that case, I'd tell them ok, take a shot at it and then I'll charge "x" to review the setup for you to make sure its optimal
When does it make sense to install Exchange on physical hardware, anyway?
How big is the client (exchange cal wise)?
Dan
Dan
14:11
Because it sounds to me that, even if you were to do the work, they'd be over your shoulder questioning every decision with phrases such as "Oh, I read on Yahoo that you shouldn't do that"
fuck that... put them on O365.
@ewwhite might be in the post...
That's why some of the questions here annoy me. People have spent a lifetime building their skills and when they comment on questions and get shouted down by the OP it's case of "on your head be it".
@Dan In the past, I'd come in, work, stay overnight, work and leave...
Repeat every 2-3 years.
in all seriousness, when we did the basic math it really doesn't make a whole lot of sense to run your own exchange box unless you have more than 200 mailboxes
outsource it for the small guys
Dan
Dan
14:13
@ewwhite Yeah, but that's before they realised that all you do is follow guides on the internet. It's easy
less things to deal with anyway
@Dan problem is he helped write most of the guides (see ServerFault)
I'm looking at their application server...
@BrentPabst Exactly.
They won't even let me take it down for updates.
well thats just not good practice
does make me question the team and their ability with things like that
CIO/CTO or just a manager?
IT manager and one tech.. but they are equal.
@BrentPabst 200? Hah! My math says 1000.
14:16
probably $300 million company
But I think the client wants it under their control, no "cloud"/hosted stuff, so they pay a premium for that decision.
@HopelessN00b it was 200 with an average mailbox size of 25GB ;)
400+ employees...
wait... 400 employees, 300 million a year and two IT people?
but only 85 computer users
14:17
Just walk in with a ghetto-blaster connected to a microphone turned up to 11 so it distorts, shout "fuck you assholes", drop the mic and walk
@BrentPabst Oh, well, ri-cock-ulous mailbox sizes might lower the mailbox count a bit, yeah.
ok, still...
So IT is an afterthought... lots of Windows 2000
oh... well that changes things a bit
so you're dealing with people who don't like and can't fight for change
@ewwhite Seriously? This isn't a company based out of Columbus Ohio, is it? Sounds exactly like one of my past employers I still have contact with.
14:18
Phila... was going to send @mdmarra in to help them understand some Windows options and features.
As in "Windows now allows you to do X, Y and Z"
@BrentPabst Produce. Most of my clients are warehousing/logistics/produce
@ewwhite Heh, I guess small companies with cluterfucks for IT all look the same. :)
ok
i assume their app server runs some sort of erp package?
well regardless, if their clients are that old, you cant use O365 or many of the other services, youd have to upgrade hardware first
can we please put this one out of its misery folks?
-4
Q: Virtual Windows Servers and Pagefile location

Luke PuplettConsidering that Windows makes heavy use of the pagefile even with huge amounts of RAM available, is it not best to have this pagefile on the fastest disk possible as close to the virtual systems as possible? I'm thinking, RAM disk. Where I work, storage for VMs is out on a NAS/SAN. I'm worried...

@HopelessN00b I don't think that's a bad idea on their part, if they want it all "in house" with terminal services and web access that's okay.
14:27
@BrentPabst Yeah, linux-based ERP...
With lots of ethernet and serial hardware terminals in the warehouse
Some W7, some XP...
I don't get it. Where are all these WinHTTP problems coming from all of a sudden?
Did I miss anything in the latest batch of Windows Updates?
@Chopper3 Someone is mad at you...
The first response was by Chopper3 in a provocative, incredulous tone, with capitals and dismissing my idea as 'nuts'. At no point have I been rude or aggressive and yet I'm the bad guy. Close the question please someone. — Luke Puplett 1 min ago
I closed it.
my capitalisation wasn't rude though was it, the rest was but that wasn't
@Chopper3 The only thing thats rude is how you both spell capitalization!
14:33
ha
Yeah. Learn to speak proper American!
I actually didn't mind it, short and to the point overall
Anywho, it's a quiet day here.
I need to chat!
I bought my first UEFI motherboard yesterday. Bit different from a normal BIOS.
@tombull89 I like to think of UEFI as "normal" nowadays :)
So so so much nicer than legacy BIOS.
14:47
Amen
rm -rf / (that is a fun easter egg)
bash: rm: command not found
Internally managed Exchange? It's not a defacto bad idea, but these guys *will* fuck it up, and generally, untill you get into ~1000+ mailboxes or terabytes of mail, my experience is that it's a waste of money.

Pay someone else ~5 bucks a mailbox and 5gig disk allotment per month, and make them deal with all the management and configuration headaches.

If these guys wanna spend the extra the money and man-hours to do so themselves, it's an option, but the "better deal" for the business-unit side of things is going to be hosted Exchange, by a wide margin.
@HopelessN00b Referring to my situation?
or another one?
@OliverSalzburg ...or possibly applied a problematic patch in the last round of updates seems like a good starting point for troubleshooting.
14:51
@rlemon one I definitely don't feel comfortable trying without first firing up a vm :-P
@ewwhite Yours, and the general case. I have a recent client make the same "we want to teh controlz it!!!" decision. OK. Waste of money, but it's their money to waste.
@HopelessN00b Yeah, this all started to happen with the latest updates. Everything's working again now I just found it a bit curious.
@rlemon Especially when running as root which you're not doing, right?!?!? :)
@derobert run it in chat
no guys type it in the chat system ninja'd
14:53
@HopelessN00b I run a lot of internal exchange... mostly for speed. Internal network, and the desire to run in online mode. But all else equal, hosted Exchange isn't a bad option.
UPS Failure! Woo! HP R1500 for a switch cab.
@HopelessN00b when I was learning *nix I actually did that on a dev server... it said, sure I'll delete myself
@BrentPabst run it in chat? Wasn't aware you could run commands in chat. Can I start prefixing my messages with wall or write? :-P
@MichaelHampton Freaking Brits. Come from a proper country with Anglo heritage and roots, and still dunno how to speak Merikun 20 years later?!?!? Pfft, must be in the class for countries learning-disabilities.
@rlemon That IS a fun Easter Egg!
Funny, doing rm -rf / in the tex chat room gets you autoflagged.
14:57
lol
@tombull89 autoflagged for excellence?
26
Q: What Easter Eggs do the chat sites have?

MosheAccording to @balpha, he SE chat sites may have individual Easter eggs, depending on the site. If you find them, please post. Edit: Because it's so easy to make this stuff up, a screenshot as proof would be nice. (Although Photoshop ain't that hard either...)

however for the regex easter egg <[^>] is enough. you don't need the entire line.
@HopelessN00b nope.avi
root@ubuntu:~# rm -Rf /
rm: it is dangerous to operate recursively on `/'
rm: use --no-preserve-root to override this failsafe
Bloody Ubuntu. I WANT THE ROPE TO HANG MYSELF.
Heh.

Oh a related note, crap. Rep-capped for the day. It's before noon, and I already need to find another way to avoid doing actual work at work. Life is so cruel!!!
15:00
@HopelessN00b Write up what I need to tell the old-school client.
Oh, I need about 585 more rep for today
I'll give you 50 points.
Does @michael have an opinion?
I have lots of opinions. Which one would you like to buy today?
So, when you add in --no-preserve-root, you get a bunch of errors trying to delete /proc. Wonder how long 'til this Ubuntu VM self-destructs.
@derobert Give it a few minutes.
15:03
Heh, not a bad idea, but the "actual work" I'm trying to avoid is writing up the same kind of "really, take my advice, you're paying me a fortune for it, and I really *do* know what I'm talking about" recommendations/justifications for our massive infra-refresh project.

So, that does not seem sufficiently different to distract me from the crap I'm trying to avoid doing. :)
root@ubuntu:~# ls
-bash: /bin/ls: No such file or directory
Ah, nothing like the smell of panic in the morning to wake you up.
@MichaelHampton Short version. Client calls today. They need a big infra change. Windows 2000, XP and 7 PC's. Main app is a Linux-based ERP that I support. But mail is on sendmail+dovecot on CentOS 4.4. 85 office users.
@ewwhite How was your client that wanted 7TB quick?
I proposed Exchange, AD migration from W2003, VMWare 3-host cluster, etc. etc...
and @michael, they called and have decided to try to do it themselves...
@ewwhite And do you want my opinion on what you should do, or the client's mental illnesses?
15:05
Oh, I know... I'll go learn some AS400 shit from the mainframe operators instead.

Gah, how horrifying is it that learning about mainframe operations is the *better*, *more* palatable option? Maybe I'll just jump out the window.
@tombull89 Apparently, they're going to get it.
@ewwhite that was not the response I was expecting.
@MichaelHampton It was an uncomfy phone conversation... I did not know how to say, "this is more complex than you think it is... and I'm well-versed in it"
@ewwhite Just quote the cost to do it right the first time, and the five-times-higher cost to come in and clean it up later.
@MichaelHampton This isn't about money... it's about them thinking that, with enough time, they can do this themselves.
And I'm concerned that my knee-jerk reaction is that they could not do it.
15:08
@ewwhite Are you concerned that the might actually succeed?
Is that right? Is it reasonable to assume that people who aren't around this stuff every day aren't going to be successful?
Oh, wait! Better option than suicide... I'll just stay here and gloat. Guess what I gots that our blue porcupine doesn't?

Yeh, that's right... Guru badge, bitches!!!
http://serverfault.com/badges/18/guru?userid=118258
@ewwhite I hate Windoze and avoid it whenever possible, but I could probably muddle through it if I was forced to. I can't imagine somebody with no experience doing it.
@MichaelHampton I'm no Windows guy either, but I know when it's something I can fix, and when it needs a pro's touch.
@MichaelHampton Well, and willingly, when there's a much better, cheaper option.
15:11
I feel like the generalist is no-more... people need to be deeper in specific areas and cross-train.
3
@ewwhite Well, give them your recommendations. If they ignore you and go do something else, it's all on them.
@MichaelHampton I've worked with them for ten years... this is a shock because I wasn't sure if I was being condescending or not.
Do they normally trust your recommendations? you have a good working relationship?
@ewwhite Yeah, for the geometrically increasing complexity of all things SA, I fear and lament that you are correct. 'Course, I love being a well-rounded guy knowing enough about everything to make anything work. :(
@MichaelHampton Yes... I go in every 2-3 years and uplift/upgrade their hardware. everything runs well
15:12
Installing software is fair enough and anybody with a bit of guidance can go it. Thi isn't though. This is setting up a domain and exchange, something that could have bussiness-critical and finiancial issues if it goes wrong. Said it before, people should pay for expereince, if they don't want to then it's up to them. Document and log everything so when the time comes you can pull your bits of paper out and say "I told you so". Or, they might just do it. Ish.
but this place is particularly slow to adapt.
@tombull89 And HA/clustering, and a virtualized infrastructure too... shudder
@ewwhite Part of me wants to say, grab a video camera and document the expected trainwreck.
...and market a line of Sysadmin bloopers DVDs on late-night TV?
@michael actually, I think this is a last-minute grab... The manager and his assistant realize that they are behind the times.
15:16
Or just put them on YouTube.
Oh, and they aren't sure about virtualization... they seem distrusting of it.
@ewwhite Do they need it? Would they be better served by (or would it be cheaper) a half-dozen mid-spec servers or two VMWare'd HA'd machines?
I get virtualization isn't for everybody.
They need a two-server ESX cluster. Three, if they want... not needed, though.
@tombull89 Sounds like it would sure save them monies and complexities... but if they won't take that as good advice, what's a consultant to do?
The stack would be: Linux web server, domain controllers, exchange, file, Remote Desktop/TS, Linux app... maybe Barracuda Spam...
No databases or anything fancy
15:22
Gawd, I think I have a shell script that would set that up.
Feels like it, right?
Say, any web and/or RFC gurus in the house?

Does that crap with the # after `www`in a url (www[#].domain.tld/[restofurl]) actually violate any RFCs, or is just something that bugs me, but doesn't violate any accepted standards?
@HopelessN00b Doesn't violate RFC to have it. It DOES violate RFC to actually send it to a web server.
And yes, that means IE6.
@HopelessN00b you mean 0..9 there, not the literal # character, I hope?
Damn. Thanks for the correct answer. Next time, try to make it the answer I wanna hear too, though.
15:23
@HopelessN00b Wait, you are referring to the fragment, right?
@derobert Yeah, the 0..9 in there.
as in www2.gotmeeting.com/[blah]
@HopelessN00b Oh, no, that's not what I was referring to.
I'm pretty sure there is no standard against it. There may be a best practices document somewhere that recommends against it.
You can name a host whatever you want.
Look at HP's web site. They're up to about www1500 or so now, and God only knows which one of those servers your document is on.
Yeah, was afraid of that.

I'll show them, though. I'll name **my** host damnwww2dotgotomeetingdotcomtopuss-spewingbloodguttedhell
15:27
I think you're limited to 64 bytes before the dot.
58 characters. Might fit.
57 without the hypen
That should be fine, then, but don't expect anybody to ever be able to type it.
I suggest you just add an A record for *, and don't use name-based vhosting, so that you can give a different hostname for each URL.
By the way, I run a little web site at yes-www.org ...
15:40
@MichaelHampton You mentioned that before, and I read it then. Damn straight, man! Agree 100% with what you say there.
I think my Apache rewrite rules need tweaking though. It's been a long time since I've used it; so far I've convinced 100% of my clients to use nginx :)
@MichaelHampton I'm a supporter of no-www.org though you make a reasonable point.
I still remember running Mosaic on my Packaged Hell 486.
Type? Pfft, no typing. I just need to find a way to pull off a global DNS poisoning attack to redirect www[#].gotomeeting.com to my host instead to make a point/register my disgust with that practice.

Surely that wouldn't quaify as cyber-crime, or even cyber-terrorism, would it?
@HopelessN00b The # part doesn't offend me. gotomeeting offends me.
Or, I should say, having to go to a meeting offends me.
15:45
@ChrisS That links to a parked domain, according to Websense. (should be no-www.org and, ironically, not no-ww.org at least as far our webfilter is informing me.
@HopelessN00b The what?? I linked to the correct no-www.org, link works fine here too
@MichaelHampton Well, yeah, to both those thing, actually... but when I must use/administer gotomeeting access, it would be nice if wasna't a pain in my ass that involved a regex in the webfilter... I mean, come-the-hell-on.
@HopelessN00b Oh ho, now I see what you're getting at.
@ChrisS Dammit. there goes another hour of my life with a Tier0 "support representative." (Filter shows it as a parked domain.)
@HopelessN00b Have you tried turning it off and back on again?
Dan
Dan
15:48
@ewwhite @Chopper3 What's your thoughts on the new E5-2609 and the fact it doesn't support Hyperthreading. Is it powerful enough without in a virtualised environment?
@Dan Gulp... @Chopper3 would know. I don't know enough.
I'd skip it, it's a filler part to spread the bin list - ignore it, HT is worth it
@Dan Depends on what kind of crunching you're doing.
It is on a Windows host, so that's not a horrible idea, except for the minimum week long lead time and obscene amounts of [electronic] paperwork/redtape involved in doing so around here.

Won't help anyway, so I'll just tell Websense to fix their shit instead.
Dan
Dan
@Chopper3 Thanks
15:49
Hyperthreading really only works well for ALU based tasks (highly logical, no "real" math).
Probably more than once, and in small words they can understand, based on past experience...
@HopelessN00b I meant your computer... But it's weird any way you look at it.
2906 1k cost is 294USD, 2620 is 406, so twice the thread capacity for 33% cost
What if you just type http://no-www.org into your browser?
@ChrisS Which one? And the host or the guest OS? And which guest? :D
Dan
Dan
15:53
@Chopper3 Not speccing, at my first Gen8 site. Not our gear but interesting to see
Was surprised to see no HT on the hyper-visor so did a google
21
Q: Will disabling hyperthreading improve performance on our SQL Server install

Sam SaffronRelated to: Current wisdom on SQL Server and Hyperthreading Recently we upgraded our Windows 2008 R2 database server from an X5470 to a X5560. The theory is both CPUs have very similar performance, if anything the X5560 is slightly faster. However, SQL Server 2008 R2 performance has been prett...

@ChrisS Oh, well now it doesn't block as a parked domain. Weird. I'd normally blame that on an obvious case of user error, but since I'm the user... I'm gonna go with... my shop's reliance on obsolete buzzword paradigms, such as not having my laptop hosted in the cloud yet.
if you're going for Gen8 go for the less 8 cores than more 4 cores
@MichaelHampton long time ago in thread utilisation years
First t hing I found, and still has some interesting and useful stuff.
Dan
Dan
@Chopper3 That'd be my personal approach, I agree
15:58
@HopelessN00b That's just your web filter being stupid. I bet it does the same thing if you click here.
@MichaelHampton Mine says server not found. =]
@ChrisS That's what it's supposed to do.
@MichaelHampton Yeah! What do I win?
@ChrisS You win four internets.
I rather have something I can eat... Actually time to go foraging at the local Jimmy John's.
16:01
Damn. I miss Jimmy John's.
@MichaelHampton For the sake of fun, next time we're discussing webfilter behavior, make that link go to penthouse or brazzers, or the like. :)
@HopelessN00b Test the functionality of your web filter by trying to visit Penthouse or Brazzers.
Which reminds me, all the porn sites seem to all use www.
@MichaelHampton What's the current exchange rate if I want to convert my internets into interconnectubes on which the internets run? (as we all know)
Pfft, no I mean a hyperlink with the displayed link text of "here."

Like as a dumbass test/filter for SAs.
@HopelessN00b Aha.
Web filter test link - Tests the functionality of your web filtering appliance and provides a complete report which you can copy and paste for management review, saving you valuable time that you could be spending playing MW3 or something.
Yes, exactly like that!
Oh, and I figured out the weirdness... somehow clicking that link the first time sent me to:

http://www.http.com/

Which actually is a parked domain. Still leaves me with a `WTFF` or two, but at least I like them better than a root cause of `luser-error-from-the-SA`
16:10
@ChrisS Yep, all the porn sites in my browser history use www.
@HopelessN00b Now you get to figure out what added the .com to the link.
Oh god, don't tell me you're using IE.
Goooooood morning Vietnam!
Well, yeah, in addition to the rest of the link being horribly mangled/changed.

And yes, I proudly use IE7 for browsing from my corporate equipment. When anyone who gives half a crap about our corporate policy is in earshot.
Eh, at least it's not IE6. You can live.
Right, only a 3 major versions outdated and 7 years old version of a crap product. highly livable.
16:16
mornin' Gents.
That time again already?
Yep. Fair Warning: I'm strangely perky and energetic.
Sure is!

...wait, we're both talking about homoerotic, server-fan-fetish orgy time, right?
@HopelessN00b Hot fan on fan action?
Hey, I'm running Chrome 21. What is with these packages that always update the major version number every month or so, anyway?
16:20
@HopelessN00b Isn't it always that time?
@84104 or hot directional-airflow on directional-airflow action, if that's your gender-pairing preference.
4
@HopelessN00b You spin me right round?
2
@r.tanner.f Is for me, but the company I work for is weird. They don't recognize, or allow me to partake in any of the "normal" server-hardware-fetish orgy times throughout the year. Prudes.
@84104 Actually, it's the ones that spin me left round that really float my boat. Rawwwrrrrr.
Oh fuck. And speaking of freaky fetishes that actually exist, the iSeries operator cornered me... shudder now I gotta go learn about that... unholy mess. BBL.
@HopelessN00b mmhmm.... go feed the gerbils...
16:38
sigh I really hate staff who can't figure out the difference between the internet being down and their computer actually being broken.
@Adrian Did they file the appropriate ticket by stapling it to their office door?
@JeffFerland Users can't file tickets here, only supervisors. Unfortunately, she found the most clueless manager in the org to file her ticket for her.
Start telling them you'll have to help them later, because you can't do anything when the world-wide network of computers is offline.

Even the idiots I've worked with caught on eventually.
@HopelessN00b No, the only part of it that they'd grasp is that we were mocking them and they'd be calling HR 15 seconds after we left.
Oh, you gotta state it very matter-of-fact and apologetically, and with a completely straight face.

You know you're damn good when they come back the next day and ask why they didn't see anything about it on the news.
16:43
Because you were watching CNN, and it was just local news.
the newsroom didn't get the report because the internet was down. duh.
if i have to watch a news anchor read a screenshot of twitter one more time, i'm going to cancel my cable subscription.
Wait, you can get TV over cable?
only if your wife insists on watching the view.
I am very fortunate in that regard. Though one of these days I really need to wean my gf off Ubuntu.
@MichaelHampton Friends don't let friends run Ubuntu.
16:49
Fscking CenturyLink.
She was running Mandrake before. Gawd.
@Adrian I see you're having Another Day With The Huggy-Feely Brigade?
@voretaq7 They blew our DSL connection away without telling us. The bonded pair is due to go in late today or early tomorrow.
@MichaelHampton, @voretaq7 so if you wanted to run haproxy in an otherwise pure windows environment, what would you choose instead of ubuntu? in my limited experience, i was able to get ubutntu server up and running with the least amount of hassle, and with documentation that one of my coworkers could follow.
@longneck I would drop in a BSD machine :-)
If that's not a realistic option for you, RedHat/CentOS or Normal Debian if you must
16:57
Yep --> i.imgur.com/dmkN6.jpg (NSFW is your boss is a ####)
@voretaq7 are you in the BSD camp of "everything must be compiled from ports"?
@longneck yea don't do Ubuntu & HAProxy ... we saw A LOT of kernel panics on our HAProxy LB's running Ubuntu
@longneck not everything, but most things.
Apache and Postgres are notable exceptions, and most of our ruby gems are installed with gem because ports isn't quite as up to date as I'd like
@longneck RH/CentOS is what I'm moving everything to (slowly). The last remaining Debian and Ubuntu boxes are the only ones that give me any real trouble.
and thanks to Security.SE I need to migrate to Apache 2.4 at some point. grumbles
16:59
@voretaq7 unfortunately, i have to let others maintain, too. i'm fine with managing ports, but that's too much for the mostly windows people here.

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