The Comms Room

Michael Hampton

07:25

Iain

07:36

G'day

pauska

morning

RobM

07:56

morning

RobM

08:10

he's back! hey @HopelessN00b

HopelessN00b

Yeah, I guess he is. Hey, Rob.

RobM

how's it going

newyorker.com/online/blogs/currency/2014/01/…

HopelessN00b

Still breathing. Then again, it's 3 AM and I'm collating more useless data for the boss to misuse... so "still breathing" has its downside too, I suppose. :)

RobM

heh

more useless data? Working shifts or demented boss?

HopelessN00b

Demented boss who urgently needs the data tomorrow out of the blue. Blech. But the article you linked is helping take the edge off.

Oh, "tomorrow" is already today, I guess.

RobM

08:28

I guess...

Still, hope you can put your feet up soon, no one needs these kinda things out of the blue huh

HopelessN00b

Indeed. I'm not stressing about it, though. Either this will change for the better really soon, or I'll find greener pastures that come with a pay bump.

Chopper3

Morning Turd-Burglers

pauska

hello brotato

HopelessN00b

Turd-Burglers? I object to that characterization. It's been years since I burgled a turd.

Journeyman Geek

08:50

@HopelessN00b: how about dung-swiper?

My initial reservations on homeplugs is true

damned things are a bitch to troubleshoot

Iain

@JourneymanGeek I have a couple that just work

tombull89

@HopelessN00b -blink- greetings!

Journeyman Geek

had my switch not working cause (I suspect) the power cable was loose

@Iain: mine usually work

HopelessN00b

@JourneymanGeek Better, but I think I'd prefer dung-flinger (or dung-flingee).

@tombull89 Ahoy, hoy.

Journeyman Geek

I was trying to set security on them, and there's two things that annoyed me - I don't know if my private network name was actually set, and there's no actual feedback on what may be wrong outside das blinkenlighten

tombull89

08:52

0

A: Layer 2 and 3 Network and Topology discovery of blackbox network

Hi Michael, I am also looking for the same and I need to audit for CISCO, JUNIPER and ZTE. Please kindly share me the details if you find it. Also I want OID's and MIB's for CISCO, JUNIPER and ZTE Router/ Switch devices to monitor CM, PM & FM datas through SNMP. So Please kindly sha...

"TLDR; I got set the same homework"

HopelessN00b

@tombull89 Is that homework these days? I got that job only a few years ago. Not for less than $250 an hour if I ever get another offer, let me tell you.

RobM

I think its their cluelessness about the job that suggests homework. There are plenty of businesses out there whose management don't have a fucking clue what IT assets they own and how they're configured. And if you're very unlucky, IT isn't the only area they're that clueless in...

Journeyman Geek

@RobM: At the risk of sounding racist... its india very likely

too many people getting into IT for the wrong reasons.

RobM

Maybe, but I've seen that level of cluelessness elsewhere.

HopelessN00b

@JourneymanGeek Remind me again, because I forget... what are the right reasons for getting into IT, aside from severe head injuries?

RobM

08:57

I think a lot of people think that they just need to do some basic introductory IT course and then the $really$ £Big£ €Money€ will magically fall in their laps.

Journeyman Geek

@HopelessN00b: Do you need another one?

@RobM: slightly worse

RobM

@HopelessN00b an abiding hope that one day it will be legal for IT professionals to electrocute users.

Journeyman Geek

Its a "respectable profession"

RobM

ah

HopelessN00b

@JourneymanGeek Need? No. But my ego would sure like another one.

Journeyman Geek

08:59

@HopelessN00b: I like computers a little more than people

I'm just competent enough that I know when I'm out of my depth, and smart enough to know when and who to ask for help

(and I'm probably just a little nuts. Actually? Thats a really good reason on its own)

HopelessN00b

@JourneymanGeek There it is. That and the comically misguided belief that IT would let me spend more time with computers than people would be what started me down this highway to hell.

Journeyman Geek

@HopelessN00b: more time? no. On someone elses budget? Oh, hell, yes.

HopelessN00b

@JourneymanGeek Yeah, the "respectable profession" reason is an awful one. Pick an unrespectable profession if you have the option. You make a lot more money, and the hours are usually better too.

Journeyman Geek

I'm realistic tho. If I had a non IT job that paid well, I'd go for it

@HopelessN00b: this is an oddity in the indian psyche.

tombull89

@HopelessN00b Hello I am calling from Microsoft. You have a problem with your Windows.

Journeyman Geek

09:02

to me, its better to be the best phone sanitiser in the business, than a halfwit in a job I hate, cause my parents wanted me to be one.

HopelessN00b

@JourneymanGeek It's actually smart.... seeing science and engineering as professions to aspire to, rather than the way we do it, where everyone wants to be a singer/movie star/athlete.

Still, they'd be better off as individuals if they took up drug dealing, or pimping, or whatever unrespectable profession that has you rolling in cash for a couple hours of "work" a day.

Journeyman Geek

@HopelessN00b: problem is really... you need to be good at what you do

you need to be a certain kind of crazy to get into IT

HopelessN00b

Indeed. Wish I'd been a different kind of crazy, though. "Crazy rich" comes to mind immediately.

Michael Hampton

It's 4 am. I'm not actually doing any work, I am just plain having a nice helping of insomnia.

HopelessN00b

@MichaelHampton If you're looking for work, I have some spreadsheets I could use some help making... just inventory a few hundred systems for me, put 'em in an Excel doc and email them to my boss by 08:00.

Michael Hampton

09:07

@HopelessN00b cat /dev/urandom > inventory.xlsx

Journeyman Geek

@HopelessN00b: funny thing is my parents are oldschool

they never considered IT a reputable profession

HopelessN00b

@MichaelHampton What, the boss is going to read something that isn't meticulously formatted and all shiny? Pfft. Right.

Journeyman Geek

Which is why I went to engineering school for a bit

@HopelessN00b: you mean the boss is going to read it?

HopelessN00b

@JourneymanGeek You're not in "IT," you're a "systems engineer." :)

Michael Hampton

Read it? He's just going to look at the charts.

HopelessN00b

09:11

@JourneymanGeek Well, so he says. One ridiculous problem at a time, though.

Chopper3

Fuck - my needlessly-massive home printer has properly broken - HP sending out a whole new one - fuck

Journeyman Geek

o0

@Chopper3: did it die a glorious death?

Chopper3

no, essoteric error message syndrome

HopelessN00b

@Chopper3 What, why? It's a printer, and you finally managed to kill it - success! Why are you getting another one? I never had you pegged as a masochist.

pauska

holy fuck

been troubleshooting connectivity issues between our access points and our controller with a firewall in between

for nearly a year

Chopper3

09:21

@HopelessN00b we need one for home, for the kid's work really, I do use it but not as much as them

pauska

and I just found out that we don't have an access rule to allow GRE between them

HopelessN00b

@pauska Heh. Always the stupid shit, especially on the really hard issues, innit?

@Chopper3 My condolences. I don't think I could handle a life that involved regular use of tree corpses.

Journeyman Geek

No boom?

The printer certainly is a tool of the devil

Dan

@HopelessN00b Hey, you came back!

@Chopper3 I'm going to get a nice colour laser MFD, I've decided

RobM

PC Load Letter... what the fuck does that mean

Dan

09:24

@RobM Wrong page size :)

pauska

@HopelessN00b hey man! good to see you here again

HopelessN00b

@Dan Yeah, I was cured for a while, but I guess the mental illness came back... so I did too.

RobM

good ol' office space

Journeyman Geek

Lp0 on fire

lp0 on fire (aka Printer on Fire) is a semi-obsolete error message generated on some Unix and Unix-like computer operating systems in response to certain types of printer errors. lp0 is the Unix device handle for the first line printer, but the error can be displayed for any printer attached to a Unix/Linux system. The message does not reliably indicate whether the printer in question is actually aflame. History The "on fire" message probably originated in the late 1950s, when high speed computerized printing was still a somewhat experimental field. The first documented fire-starting ...

this is a more useful error message.

RobM

yay

who hasn't wanted to set fire to a printer

Dan

09:25

I always get tempted to put silly errors in my apps and scripts, but one of my mates was a VB dev back in the day and put "If this happens, we're fucked" deep in an error handler that shouldn't' ever happen.

Obviously, somewhat inevitably, the error occurred during a board meeting

pauska

I zapped a very expensive HP printer once with electrostatic from my finger, does that help?

HopelessN00b

@RobM Amen. Which brings to mind the question, "where's the lu0, user on fire" error message?

RobM

doh

that's more of an audio alert

Journeyman Geek

@HopelessN00b: Thats not an error, thats a start!

Chopper3

@Dan this is a HP X476dw btw, it's been ace until now

Journeyman Geek

09:27

o0

that is needlessly large

Dan

@Chopper3 That's the type of thing, though maybe not quite so obnoxiously large ;) I know a place that sells ex-demo kit - I saw a nice £300 samsung going for £99 the other week, which I really should have had. Need to check again soon to see what tghey have

@Chopper3 By the way, I'm VAT registered now ;)

HopelessN00b

@Chopper3 Moving parts, man. Nothing good ever comes from a machine with moving parts.

Chopper3

@Dan oh cool, I've had to setup a small ltd co. for my daughter over the christmas period and will be vat registering it in the coming weeks

HopelessN00b

For example, my car... which has moving parts, and brings me to work, where I deal with my insufferable bosses, who have moving parts, and occasionally have to deal with technical issue on computers, which also ave moving parts.

It's not "the love of money" that's the root of all evil, it's moving parts.

Dan

@Chopper3 Sweet!

Dennis Kaarsemaker

09:33

ohai

Chopper3

hi

pauska

10:18

@JennyD where you at girl

HopelessN00b

A girl? On an IT site? Things have changed while I've been away.

5

Dennis Kaarsemaker

10:35

@MichaelHampton aww, you scared the clix guy away...

Michael Hampton

@DennisKaarsemaker What? Did he delete his question?

Dennis Kaarsemaker

yeah

perfectly fine question if you ask me

Dan

@pauska Thought the same the other day - she did post an answer yesterday

Michael Hampton

I only stated the obvious.

HopelessN00b

Yeah, touchy little priss... you should undelete the question. It does have some value, even if the better option is usually to not run software that's old enough to drink legally.

tombull89

10:39

serverfault.com/questions/567948/…

this one?

HopelessN00b

Yup.

tombull89

wait what

it was there 2 seconds ago

HopelessN00b

Yeah, user deleted it, presumably in response to the porcupine's comment.

Oh, shit. He's not a porcupine anymore. He's a weird, green combination lock. Or number 6.

Michael Hampton

He deleted it, then reposted it with a comment to my comment. Not kosher.

0

Q: licence file for extra logins on ancient Unix (CLIX) system

I'm helping to sort out an ancient Intergraph 6800 machine at work, running CLIX, a proprietary Unix. Binning the system is not an option. It is a certified safety-critical system that would cost $millions to replace. Please do not post suggestions that the system could be replaced as it is ut...

HopelessN00b

Wow. Seems like a lot of effort for no reason.

tombull89

10:43

It is a certified safety-critical system eh, turn it off. What's the worst that can happ KABOOM

HopelessN00b

And yeah, that makes it even worse. You're trusting your safety to something that old, undocumented, and clearly not understood? Bet that ends well.

Rudi Visser

Helpppppp meeeeeeeee

Plssssssssssss

No but seriously, check this out

0

Q: Directories converted to files

Our development team went to start HTTPD and got this: Starting httpd: (20)Not a directory: httpd: could not open error log file /etc/httpd/logs/error_log. Unable to open logs [FAILED] Upon investigation we noticed that the logs symlin...

linux filesystems log-files

Michael Hampton

It's so ancient that the link to the Wikipedia page for it is red.

2

And the page about the company is a stub.

Chopper3

@RudiVisser you posted that 4 minutes ago ffs!

Rudi Visser

Wow really?

Chopper3

10:45

@RudiVisser also read that text at the top right of the screen

Rudi Visser

I hadn't even noticed!

I'm not asking for Live Support am I?

HopelessN00b

1) Grab developers by the throat with both hands.
2) Squeeze as hard as you can.
3) Scream "WHAT DID YOU DO TO MY SERVER?!?!?!?"

Rudi Visser

It's more interesting, than asking for help

Pedant

Chopper3

@RudiVisser essentially yes, yes you are

Dennis Kaarsemaker

it's not interesting at all

it's just a rubbish question you're trying to get quick help with.

Rudi Visser

10:46

Have you ever seen it before?

Dennis Kaarsemaker

I wish we could migrate crap like that to /r/sysadmin :)

Journeyman Geek

@HopelessN00b:I prefer to crush the developers, drive them before me, and to hear the lamentations of their women....

tombull89

Tough crowd this morning.

Rudi Visser

@HopelessN00b I tried that, turns out to their last breath they remain the position that it wasn't them!

Michael Hampton

You run last to find out who was logged in when the changes were made. Then you get out your shotgun and blast their head off.

Dennis Kaarsemaker

10:48

@MichaelHampton neh, too quick. start with snipping off non-vital bodyparts

Michael Hampton

@DennisKaarsemaker You don't have guns over there, you have to be a bit more creative...

Rudi Visser

@MichaelHampton I would do that, should /var/log/wtmp not be empty too.

Sean

@DennisKaarsemaker But you can't cos it's well within the scope of the site ^_^

Michael Hampton

What was the point of that comment ? — Michael 1 min ago

HopelessN00b

Then you restore from backups.

You ***do*** have backups, right, Rudi?

Chopper3

10:49

@RudiVisser it's just that this site is frequented by about a dozen people talking about ponies, lunch and balls - you spamming a question nobody has had a chance to answer here is considered rude

Michael Hampton

Someone want to tell him?

Rudi Visser

@Chopper3 Yes I'm sure I was very rude, posting something that is indeed a strange occurrence into a group of individuals who crave problems they haven't seen before like every other techie? Terrible of me, sorry

@HopelessN00b Of a log directory? Unfortunately not. I'm more concerned about the method of which could have been used to do this, or how the system could come up with a situation to cause this, not the log data (nor how to fix it)

Chopper3

@RudiVisser Good, I'm glad you're clearly apologetic - you should be

Dennis Kaarsemaker

@RudiVisser we crave interesting problems, not mundane everyday logrotate issues that we've all seen and fixed before :)

Sean

@DennisKaarsemaker It's not a logrotate issue

Rudi Visser

10:50

^

Journeyman Geek

@MichaelHampton: I just did. Its probably a waste of keystrokes ;p

HopelessN00b

@RudiVisser Yeah, I always backup logs. I mean, what's the first thing a half-decent intruder's going to delete?

(But no, I don't have an answer to your problem.)

RobM

this site is frequented by about a dozen people talking about ponies, lunch and balls -- should be the room topic I think.

2

Michael Hampton

> When I tried to Google this, I got referred to an archaeologist.

Dennis Kaarsemaker

I just read that. Classic :)

Journeyman Geek

10:54

@MichaelHampton: Actually, thats probably a good idea

Dennis Kaarsemaker

@RobM s/ponies/bikes/ though.

Journeyman Geek

old oses came with real manuals didn't they?

Big old pieces of pulped forest, perfect for clouting people over the head with.

Dennis Kaarsemaker

HopelessN00b

Showing results for CLIT
Search instead for CLIX

Dennis Kaarsemaker

only @voretaq7 is a brony here :)

Michael Hampton

10:55

Yeah, I'm pretty sure they came with manuals. Sometimes they were even printed.

Dennis Kaarsemaker

@MichaelHampton not handwritten by tibetan monks?

Rudi Visser

@HopelessN00b Historic logs are very helpful to help with catching people that delete current logs, yes. Will keep digging anyway

Journeyman Geek

@DennisKaarsemaker: and every so often brought down from the skies. ;p

RobM

ponies and bikes @DennisKaarsemaker, why not?

Michael Hampton

RobM

11:02

HopelessN00b

@RobM Ponies and bike**r**s sounds like a more interesting combination, for my money.

RobM

yup

the main thing is that i'm entertained

Dennis Kaarsemaker

HopelessN00b

Amen to that. If you're not entertained, you may as well be working... and no good ever comes from working, in my experience.

Michael Hampton

Gawd, that shit is so ancient I could run an emulator for it on TomTom's phone.

Tom O'Connor

11:06

Last night I installed Windows 3.1 on a friend's laptop using Virtualbox so he could play a 90s game.

Or rather, I exported my Windows 3.1 image from vmware fusion, and transferred it to his over teamviewer..

Who knew you could export OVF from Fusion!

Michael Hampton

I guess that's safe, as long as you didn't install TCP/IP.

Dennis Kaarsemaker

I need to do that too

haven't played stunts in ages

Tom O'Connor

@MichaelHampton It's already installed on my image

@DennisKaarsemaker Want the OVF?

Dennis Kaarsemaker

neh, -ETIME

HopelessN00b

@TomO'Connor No DOSBox goodness?

Tom O'Connor

11:07

@HopelessN00b Couldn't get Dosbox to work..

it actually needs windows 3.1

Although 3.11 works

Didn't get sound working yet..

HopelessN00b

@TomO'Connor shudder What manner of abomination is that?

Tom O'Connor

The Ultimate Haunted House

Gahan Wilson's The Ultimate Haunted House is a computer adventure game developed by Byron Preiss Multimedia/Brooklyn Multimedia, published and distributed by Microsoft Home, and directed by Judson Rosebush. The game is designed by Walt Freitag and Barbara Lanza and published in 1993 and 1994. The game places the player in the middle of a bizarrely humorous and eerie haunted house populated by Wilson's wacky characters. The player must explore 13 rooms and find 13 hidden keys before 13 hours on the mystery clock run out. Gahan Wilson's Ultimate Haunted House requires either Mac OS 7 or h...

Michael Hampton

It wouldn't run under 95?

HopelessN00b

How that's for irony? A haunted house game that requires the horrors of Windows 3.1 to run. It's like the perfect combination of subject and medium.

Tom O'Connor

@MichaelHampton I couldn't find a 95 iso anywhere.

@HopelessN00b Windows 3.1 isn't actually that bad.

As I was saying to my friend, I grew up with 3.11

and had a primitive network

Remember the 3C509?

HopelessN00b

11:12

Well, sure, it wasn't horrible. In 1991. But much like the 286 processor I had back then, the prospect of using it now is downright horrific.

Tom O'Connor

I'd rather use 3.11 than Vista, I think.

Bless him, though. He downloaded Virtualbox.. Installed Ubuntu (calling the VM name "Windows 95"), and then figured out how to pass the CD through

I was half-tempted to do it via Wine.

HopelessN00b

@TomO'Connor Nah, Vista's actually usable. Maybe even decent. Now, after years of manufacturers actually bothering to release compatible drivers. I used it for years, until I upgraded to 7, and honestly, the differences I noticed between Vista and 7 were pretty underwhelming.

Michael Hampton

I'm not sure even Wine will run something that old. It's all 64-bit and stuff now.

Tom O'Connor

@MichaelHampton backports!

Grab the version from warty, might be ok.

HopelessN00b

@TomO'Connor Backports, eh? Sounds vaguely homosexual.

Michael Hampton

11:16

Wouldn't that be forward-ports?

HopelessN00b

Maybe. I'm much more concerned about homosexual usage of my backport than my forward port, but that could just be me.

Tom O'Connor

heh

tombull89

I have an old game that I'd love to play (and actually finish) but it doesn't run on Windows 7 or in an XP VM

You can download a different version from Abandonware sites but it's not the same.

Tom O'Connor

@tombull89 Which game?

tombull89

@TomO'Connor Tonic Trouble, by Ubisoft. A Rayman-type game.

We got the Demo with our first PC back in 1996 which crashed to desktop when you finished the level.

Tom O'Connor

11:23

heh

I dunno what games I'd like to play again

Possibly Commander Keen

but that works well in dosbox

and I can speedrun the entire game in like 10 minutes.

tombull89

I had Transport Tycoon Deluxe as well, but the disk is scratched to hell and we've got OpenTTD now there's not much point.

Maybe the old Lego Games. Lego Island, Lego Chess, Lego Loco, Lego Land...

Tom O'Connor

Theme Hospital is worth a re-play

but there's CorsixTH which allows it to run on OSX

someone rewrote it in Lua

tombull89

Never finished that either, I got to the last-but-third mission and always failed it.

There's a re-write of Red Alert which I found out about last night.

RobM

I still get the urge to play Deus Ex. Not as old I know as these classics

Dennis Kaarsemaker

RobM

11:31

heh

TheNSA

OHSHI-.

Journeyman Geek

Thats perfect

HopelessN00b

@TheNSA All that data, and you guys won't do a restore of the porn I had on my failed hard drive. Assholes. >:/

Michael Hampton

I'm finally going to bed. You're all on your own for a while. Remember, shoot as soon as you see the whites of their eyes.

tombull89

@HopelessN00b can deliver using Amazon FREEDOM if you want?

well feck

HopelessN00b

11:39

Heh. "Friendly fire... isn't."

TheNSA

More like BlackHawk Special Delivery.

HopelessN00b

0

Q: Amazon EC2 - Can't connect to my Windows instance using a remote desktop client

Using Amazon EC2 I successfully launched a Windows Server 2012 instance. I was able to connect to it using a remote desktop client and configure it as needed. From the EC2 console I then selected the option to "Launch More Like This" and a new instance was successfully launched. However, when...

amazon-ec2 windows-server-2012 amazon-ebs amazon-ami

Somehow I forgot about that... "HALP!!!! how do I connect the remote desktops to my VPS????"

Stack Exchange

The Nubby Admin: Solving a File Copy Loop in the “Application Data” folder in Windows using RoboCopy

posted on January 17, 2014 by Wesley David

My Problem When using a tool like Robocopy to copy a Windows filesystem, you can get caught in a symbolic link loop that continues to recursively copy all files in the Application Data folder. The copy process will never end and the destination file system will completely fill up. For example, I saw this in my command window as Robocopy was running which signaled the problem: c:\Users\All Use…

Journeyman Geek

11:58

holy shit

I think I just found the answer to the ~~clit~~ clix question

HopelessN00b

@JourneymanGeek Which is the best kind of shit, of course. Or least the most pious.

Journeyman Geek

and @DennisKaarsemaker beats me to it ;p

Tom O'Connor

101

Q: Why do washing machines have windows?

I'm curious why every front-loaded washing machine I've seen so far came with a window and other household machines, like dishwashers, don't. Is there any explanation why I have to see my clothes while they're getting cleaned? For me, there is nothing I have to control during the process where a ...

physical hardware household machines

Well, quite.

tombull89

@TomO'Connor To keep the cats and small children entertained?

Tom O'Connor

the [physical] tag on that site is awesome, actually.

Scott Pack

13:09

Yarr.

HopelessN00b

...she blows.

tombull89

You are a pirate!

Scott Pack

I do have a pretty epic pipe. I just need to find a tobacconist.

Dennis Kaarsemaker

13:24

@ScottPack I will not buy this record, it is scratched.

2

Scott Pack

Well done.

Basil

14:05

morning

Tom O'Connor

Morning

Scott Pack

Morning

mossy

Morning

Basil

So I'm trying to do something in unix (perl or bash) that I can't figure out. I need to run two system commands that return several thousand lines each and loop through them looking for matches. I can't simply load the output into arrays because I'll usually find what I'm looking for and be able to exit well before the end of those output files, and letting it run all the way through takes too long.

In perl, I can open a system command as a file (with a command |) and loop through it with <descriptor>, but I can't seem to pull a single line from it.

cole

Morning

Dan

14:16

"This post does not cite any references or sources. Please help improve this article by adding citations to reliable sources. Unsourced material may be challenged and removed."

Interesting feature

Scott Pack

@Basil I usually do a while(<fd>) and for each iteration will be a single line stored in $_

Basil

@ScottPack I started with that, but it's not the ideal loop structure. I'd like to do while(not eof and targetmatches > #output) and simply use scalar assignments, like $nextline = <fd>;

problem is that while I can do while(<fd>) to get the whole list, I can't do a single scalar

TheCleaner

14:34

I think The Workplace SE site must have brought over a bunch of SO folks yesterday to cheer on or rant on this question. Personally, if I were the OP's manager he'd be out the door even if he were the Serpentor Programmer with the spirits of Ritchie, Wozniak, Berners-Lee, and Knuth combined.

114

Q: What is a 'friendly' way to let managers know that having good developers is a privilege?

I work for a small company, where we recently had a change of managers. The new manager has no experience managing developers, and the old manager has moved into a development role to fill in gaps left by senior developers leaving the company and being unable to find replacements. I was recently...

software-industry management time-management

RobM

There is a certain element of "We're so special" in that question.

it's not just a developer disease

Tom O'Connor

@RobM And a bigger element of "friendly management = happy developers"

If someone pulled me aside and said I'd have to sacrifice flexible working, i'd tell them where they could stick their job.

RobM

Yeah. There might be an element of dysfunctional management there

@TomO'Connor that's fair enough. You might be 'entitled' to flexible working because its part of your contract or what you've otherwise agreed to in order to work for the company. But its not something any of us are fundamentally entitled to just because we're IT people.

Tom O'Connor

@RobM It's something everyone should be entitled to, if you don't want them to fuck off and go somewhere else.

RobM

Don't get me wrong, my sympathies are with the OP -- except for the entitled tone of the title.

Tom O'Connor

14:40

Actually, I think OP is right on the mark.

non-IT backgrounded managers suck for managing developers.

RobM

@TomO'Connor it's something I think a good employer will offer whenever possible, and I wouldn't want to work for an overly rigid employer. But its not a fundamental right.

Journeyman Geek

@TomO'Connor: well, I don't consider having employees of a particular skillset a privilege - though, I do wonder why the previous manager didn't talk to his predesessor and work out why and how things worked there previously

Tom O'Connor

@RobM Yeah, but if you don't trust your devs to get shit done, then I wonder why they've been hired at all.

And so on.

RobM

And yes, more often than not, non-IT people make poor managers of IT people, just as I wouldn't be my own first choice to manage a merchant banking department or a garage.

Iain

@TomO'Connor the best manager I ever had was non IT - he realised that all he could do was help me when I asked for it and the rest of the time he was very light touch

Tom O'Connor

14:42

I don't want people to manage me, I just want them to tell me what they want me to do eventually, and I'll set a realistic timescale

and if i want to take a break and answer shit on SF, I'm free to do that.

RobM

@TomO'Connor indeed. I'm far more interested in how productive people are than how many hours they spend at their desk.

Tom O'Connor

it's like measuring code quality by LOC

RobM

it's not that I disagree with you, it's just that I think companies are free to make choice that appear bad to people like us, and we're free to not work for people like that.

HopelessN00b

@RobM I dunno, I'm normally first on the devs == whiny prima donnas bandwagon, but I was pretty sympathetic to that guy. Could be because I'm in a similar boat. And the guy's right - if management doesn't appreciate that talented people have other options, talented people will go work for someone who does.

RobM

absolutely, I'm not disagreeing with that.

Journeyman Geek

14:44

@HopelessN00b: oh, what he wants makes sense

how he says it though...

RobM

I just personally don't like the entitlement that spills from the title of the question. As a manager being told that precise phrase would put my back up, even when I 100% agreed with the meat of the argument...

it sounds like incredibly poor management choices being made on the part of the employer.

Tom O'Connor

@RobM I think that's self-evident

Journeyman Geek

We don't have the full picture tho - it might be that employees are spending too much time on these things. ;p

HopelessN00b

Right, but I got the impression that he's asking here about how to say it to his boss so he *doesn't* sound like a whiny, entitled princess if/when the time comes.

It really is doing the boss a favor, reminding him of the fact that he can drive away all his talented employees if he doesn't lighten up a bit.... it's just all about how you say that.

Tom O'Connor

It's like the 'right' to go and find food whenever I want.

and sneak out an hour early for dental / doctors appts

RobM

14:46

@HopelessN00b agreed 100%

Tom O'Connor

nobody gives a toss, really, because I produce results

RobM

@TomO'Connor yep. for all I have a grumble about this place at times, they're on the money there. No one clock-watches me because I deliver. And the times I leave early or arrive late on occasion are balanced by the times I stay late to get something working on time, etc.

TheCleaner

Being an IT manager, here's my take. There are different philosophies when it comes to managing employees and how depts/companies operate. It appears the OP's company is moving to "traditional". If they chose to say "be here 8 hrs a day" then you should do that or go elsewhere. Unless the overall climate is "come and go as you please" which it may have been but looks like you and others might have either abused that privilege or new mgmt wants to refine the climate. Regardless, taking a Gen Y "you owe me, I rock!" attitude won't get you very far (unless you venture out on your own...lol). — TheCleaner 1 min ago

cole

Oh my god! @HopelessN00b!

mossy

@TomO'Connor I wish I could do this with out feeling weird.

Journeyman Geek

14:47

@TomO'Connor: switch "having good developers is a privilege" to "we're not comfortable with changes that our new manager is making" and the whole complexion of it changes.

And thats what its really coming down to - they're both probably right in some way, but the management may need to communicate the 'why' better, and try to talk to their employees about what works best for both.

HopelessN00b

Well, if we can take what he says at face value, that's been part of the deal. Employees get paid less than they could get elsewhere, but get the benefit have a casual attitude and shorter or less demanding workweeks.

So, yeah, in a sense, if that was the deal this guy signed onto, he is entitled to sneak off for a 2 hour lunch or whatever.

@cole Your god? I mean, I know I'm awesome, but I didn't think it rose to the level of deification.... but thank you, I'm flattered. :)

cole

lulz

Just read that question...while I'm sitting at home...

TheCleaner

@cole It's part of Hopeless' new year's resolution to come back long enough to piss off the influx of the Eternal Weekenders.

Danila Ladner

Morning All.

RobM

morning

HopelessN00b

14:51

@TheCleaner That wasn't my new year's resolution. It was to get one of them to spontaneously combust. :)

cole

Taking my damn cat to the vet at 10:30

Nathan C

@cole MeOW

TheCleaner

@RobM - I liked your comments in that Workplace.SE question btw.

cole

yeah, that's gonna be a nice $200 visit

Nathan C

(that ow being your wallet)

RobM

14:52

thanks @TheCleaner likewise

MDMarra

@cole Ya, I'm in bed with my laptop now thinking "that guy needs to suck it up"

cole

@MDMarra haha.

I have flex time - but I have to make that time up..sorta...

TheCleaner

@cole $200 to take a cat to the vet? Wow...can't you just trade it in for a healthy one at the animal shelter for free? :)

cole

@TheCleaner shots :(

MDMarra

Yeah, it's one thing to cut out when you have things to do

It's another thing to say "ok, well I work 6 hours a day now"

One is flex time, the other is a shorter work week. They're not generally considered to be the same thing

cole

14:55

@MDMarra yeah pretty much what I got from that question was that

MikeyB

@HopelessN00b highfive

Danila Ladner

expensive cats. every time it gets sick and needs vet, save 200$ get a new cat.

Nathan C

@cole At least you have flex time. I get 10 hours a quarter until my 3rd year...then it's a whopping 20 hours

:(

cole

@NathanC I...seem to get more "flex time" than anyone else

Journeyman Geek

lol

Nathan C

14:58

Then again, being in IT...your "flex time" can be increased if things are running smoothly...p

:P

cole

@NathanC or you're awesome - like me.

I didn't work yesterday, went to the VTUG at Gillette Stadium.

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