The Comms Room - 2014-02-05 (page 3 of 5)

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4:00 PM

@Dan The people around you are not a representative sample of the world.

@JennyD Well, he's right that most people are delusional about how much they eat and how much they exercise... not that it applies to the significant minority of people who have deeper issues that keep them from losing weight.

@JennyD Okay, so you believe the majority of overweight people are suffering underlying medical issues that prevents them from losing weight?

Not in 'murica @Dan ;)

so... on top of all the awesomeness of this month, the union for our conductors just gave us strike notice :( I might find myself out driving a train in the snow again this weekend

It's the same generation of people that order a Large BigMac meal and a diet coke, then sit in the office all day long

4:01 PM

@Dan I did not say that. I did, however, say that losing weight isn't as easy as calories in/calories out.

@Basil :(

@JennyD Except for most people.....it basically is

For the vast majority of people to lose weight, they need to eat less and burn more calories through the day

@cole I'm trying to do the same.. my stomatch is upside down when I eat lots of bread/pasta etc

@Dan ...No. No, it's not.

@pauska yeah I'm going through a "cleanse" right now

4:02 PM

@Basil You drive trains far too often...

@Dan Biased sample. Plus, it makes life REALLY difficult for the people who eat well and can't lose the wait.

@JennyD Oh, really?

@Basil Just look at the odometer and tell them you need at least 30 times more IOPS to run the train. That should convince them you belong behind a SAN, and nowhere near a train engine.

The modern obesity comes from extremely ill nutrition.. Dan is right about this one, people need to change their diet (not necessarily eat less, but better) and use their body more

@MikeyB What, basing things on the majority isn't a biased sample. There will always be outliers and people with underlying issues and I've never once denied that. Nor do I have an issue with fat people.

4:03 PM

The major problem is those who've gotten ill from it.. diabetes etc

@Tanner On so many levels.

and some is going to need gastro surgery to make it through

@Dan Yes, really. I'm looking through my bookmarks to try to find a link for you.

Imagine if you suddenly had to live off 1/10 the usual calories

@HopelessN00b They don't speak computer out there. I tell them I'm in IT, and they start asking me about their ipads

4:04 PM

you'd go ballistic and jump out a window

I keep my feelings about apple to myself :)

@Dan A sample from any country is a biased sample.

@MikeyB I'm talking western world, but primarily britain and the USA

obesity varies a lot from country to country..

You can't look at any other stats than per-country in my eyes..

@Basil If you don't, they'll stop asking. People stopped bringing their iPads for me to look at after I spent a few weeks of offering to replace them with a real computer.

4:06 PM

@pauska No, though I've really been talking about stats

@Basil Whip out your penis and exclusively use that on the touch screen.

@MikeyB Might not be a good idea in this weather, out in the trainyards. It's embarrassing to get your tongue stuck to a flagpole, but you'll never live down getting your penis frozen to an iPad.

3

Plus I'm doing a job that could easily get me killed, and any one of these guys could be the one that prevents (or causes) that

@HopelessN00b Good call, yeah. It's fucking FREEZING. And by FREEZING I mean temp«freezing

I play nice...

@MikeyB -50 and windy when I last went out. Fucking fuck. I'd take AIX any day over this shit

4:08 PM

@Dan Can't find the link right now. But basically - yes, you can lose a small amount of weight, like your 5-7 kgs or so, and you may keep that off. But a sustainable larger weight loss is not something most people can achieve through simply eating a little less and exercise more.

@JennyD I simply don't believe that

Oh, though you say "little less" - I never mentioned percentages. If you're consuming 4000 calories a day, then you'd have to halve that to get anywhere

Eating less is hard work and so is exercising and I think people use reasons like you're alluding to stay stuck in their ways. I'm no better - I'm terrible at snacking and eating too much and I skip loads of runs that I should do

In college I ate much worse than I do now (probably 2500 calories a day now and 4k+ back then) but worked construction. I was damn fine back then, and fat now that I have a desk job.

Man...I walk away for 30 minutes and come back to 200 new posts about weight/health.

@ChrisS Makes me wish I lived in a more "metropolitan" city, where I could live or work in a building that had a gym... you know, so there's a non-zero chance of me actually going to the gym.

@TheCleaner If it makes you feel any better I filed my taxes last night. I think Uncle Sam is paying for 1/2 of a new car.

@HopelessN00b Same here - There's been some talk of getting a treadmill or something here

There's a gym down the road, but only one person goes to the gym before/after/during work that I know of.

There's a Burger King between us and the gym - not so sure that balances out

4:19 PM

@ChrisS Nice! I'll start ours this weekend. I'm concerned a little about the tax bracket change...but hopefully it'll still be a nice chunk back.

@Dan Halving that brings you to 2000 calories. That's below what e.g. India considers risk of starvation... Oh, I found an interesting link: nethelper.com/article/Minnesota_Starvation_Experiment

Anyhow, I need to go home now. See you at some other time.

Probably just another entry in the I-need-to-steal-a-million-dollars-and-move-to-Manhattan file. Speaking, of anyone seen any lightly-guarded piles of money lying around?

@JennyD Who considers 2k calories a risk of starvaction?? That's supposed to be the "idea" according to the US Gubermint.

@ChrisS India. I just said :-P

To be fair, that is for people who work in rural areas, not office workers.

Anyway, home time.

@JennyD Sorry, didn't mean that literally.

4:22 PM

@ChrisS Well, going back to what you said about eating 2,500 calories a day when you worked in construction. Manual labor requires more calories.

@HopelessN00b I eat 2500 now, I'm fat. Ate 4k before, thin.

Wonder if they apply that same caloric standard to the guys who answer the phone when I call tech support, though...

Also, nothing impresses the ladies like picking up half of a 190# pipe.

@ChrisS It's hard to tell from this pic...but:

user image

On the left = Jenny Craig...
Far right = Fat Guy's Burger Bar
On the side by Fat Guy's? = 24 hour fitness

@ChrisS Wouldn't know about that, though I've had a lot of luck with borrowing a Ferrari or Bentley and claiming to be a billionaire's kid.

4:30 PM

I'm joking. Women would cross the street so they didn't have to walk by the construction sites. More than a few crude comments where muttered even then. We were on notice, no whistling at anyone.

"Matt Wexner, pleased to meet you.... wanna go for a spin in my Ferrari?"

Oh and to add a little fuel to the diet/weight/calories fire...

user image

@TheCleaner Is that the same person?

yeah Biggest Loser winner from last night...went from 260 to 105.

@TheCleaner Really? Life is hilariously cruel. "Congrats, you lost 150 pounds... and looked better when you were a fattie."

4:33 PM

I don't think either look good.

Indeed. I said "better," and not "good," for a reason.

I thought Tumi would win it. 55% weight loss is just crazy, until you heard the story that she's doing long distance running now... Then it seems more reasonable.

Long distance running is just unholy and unnatural. I have a car to travel long distances, or in the case of complete catastrophe, I can walk. But running? Not even if set my back on fire.

@ChrisS Same

@HopelessN00b I was chatting to a guy who does ultra marathons - surely that's got to tip the balance to actually being bad for you

@HopelessN00b It's called producers saying "you need to get as skinny as you can" and her thinking "I can win 250k". Think of it as a wrestler cutting weight before a weigh in. I bet she ends up around 125-145 within a few months.

4:40 PM

@TheCleaner That must've taken serious effort and willpower, though

@Dan For that matter, the guy who ran the marathon dropped dead once he finished. So, normal marathons don't exactly fill my head with images of of "healthy," and that's before seeing the picture of the 80 pound Somali guy who always wins the marathons. :/

@Dan and a staff to help her...wanting to boost ratings and have us talk about it the next day.

@HopelessN00b What guy, sorry? Deaths during running are pretty rare

@TheCleaner Well, here's to hoping (for her sake) that she looks better after putting a few pounds on. Otherwise, that's just... well, life is hilariously cruel.

Oh and ultra marathons? This guy: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Goggins

David Goggins (born 1975) is a Navy SEAL and former Tactical Air Control Party member TACP who served in Afghanistan and is an ultramarathon runner. After several of his friends died in Afghanistan, Goggins began long-distance running to raise money. In 2005, Goggins entered the 24 hour race in San Diego and was able to run 100 miles in under 19 hours, despite never having run a marathon before. Since then, Goggins has competed in many different long distance running events such as the Las Vegas Marathon and the Badwater 135 miler, where he placed highly. By November, 2008, Goggins had rais…

crazy!! ^^

4:41 PM

The marathon is a long-distance running event with an official distance of 42.195 kilometres (26 miles and 385 yards), that is usually run as a road race. The event was instituted in commemoration of the fabled run of the Greek soldier Pheidippides, a messenger from the Battle of Marathon to Athens. The marathon was one of the original modern Olympic events in 1896, though the distance did not become standardized until 1921. More than 500 marathons are held throughout the world each year, with the vast majority of competitors being recreational athletes. Smaller marathons, such as the...

So, "Pheidippides" would be the guy, I guess.

@HopelessN00b Oh, I see what you mean

@TheCleaner Well, sanity and a career in special forces are kinda like oil and water. The two don't mix.

Yes, there's some irony in there

@HopelessN00b You're not wrong there - although they're fit as fuck, I think it's the mentality that really does it. They just don't give in to pain

@HopelessN00b Marathons are about as healthy as humans get. Our evolutionary advantage were 1. brains and thereby tools use 2. we're the fastest long distance runners on the plant (we'd chase things until they couldn't outrun us anymore, then it was dinner time).

@Dan After years of either ignoring the pain, or getting killed, it becomes second nature. You know, or they get killed, and aren't available to perform insane feats of endurance for us to see.

4:46 PM

@HopelessN00b Haha, I have huge respect for them

@ChrisS there was an article along those lines I read years ago...lemme see if it's online

@ChrisS Well, I'm just grateful that I live in a technological age where I never have to outrun anything unless I want to for some silly reason.

@HopelessN00b Same here

@HopelessN00b I've found running hugely rewarding, far more than I ever thought

@ChrisS - here we go:

menshealth.com/fitness/biology-running?fullpage=true

"Yes, You Were Born to Run

Millions of years of genetic mutation and adaptation have produced a singular animal whose body, mind, and spirit are primed to sprint as if life depended on it. That animal is you. So why are you just standing there?"

4:49 PM

@Dan I'm still holding out for a cute, rich chick who I can "exercise" with, naked, for a couple hours a day, 7 days a week. Sounds more rewarding than running.

@HopelessN00b I'll go with that

But maybe you'd stand more chance of finding her if you' were a 1337 runner ;)

@Dan If only you were cuter, richer, and didn't have a penis, that would mean so much to me.

@HopelessN00b You don't know the second two for sure

@TheCleaner Human beings only hit the scene about 200k years ago... So "Millions", is a bad way to start the article.

@ChrisS I think they're including prior evolution

Though it's Mens Health, soo

Home time

4:52 PM

@ChrisS like Dan said...I doubt they were hoping to be scientifically accurate on anything in the article...but it's an interesting read.

not yet lunch time....

@Dan Fair enough... though if you really don't have a penis, that gravatar's excellent camouflage.

squattypotty.com

@TheCleaner I don't know what to think about that, TBH... but, for the first time in my life, actually feel sorry for someone who works in marketing.

@TheCleaner I go better when my knees are lower than my hips... Got a "chair height" toilet just for that reason.

4:57 PM

I saw it in this article: menshealth.com/health/pooping-wrong

Why's it matter, anyway? The more time I spend on the toilet, the more time I have to play Angry Birds... so why would I want to cut down on that?

@TheCleaner Not sure how you read that crap - not that the articles don't have good information - but the writing style is right up there with Cosmo or The World News.

@ChrisS :) your comment about running sparked a memory about that old running article, which in turn led me to the side story about poop. Normally I stick to The Family Handyman and Popular Science for my reading. :)

0

Q: How do I convince my boss to let me fix his computer

I've constructed a script for my office which needs to be run by every office computer. It works very well for everyone, but one, my manager (of course). The issue (without getting too technical) is that he has deep seeded corruption in his computer. This interferes with how my script runs, an...

professionalism management communication colleagues

I hurt my brain again. Why do I keep reading workplace.SE?

5:20 PM

mornin all

afternoon.

up too early again. still getting used to this new schedule.

I understand. First thing I'm going to do when I become supreme ruler of Earth is outlaw mornings.

...and possibly weekdays.

Dennis Kaarsemaker

@HopelessN00b latent masochism?

Must be. I don't have anything better.

5:38 PM

@HopelessN00b Yeah, we wouldn't hire a Windows admin. They're all complete zealots in this town. The first thing out of their mouths in the interview is why we should throw out millions of dollars in Linux development and move the entire codebase over to Windows and C#.

After all, Microsoft is just a couple miles away.

> This question appears to be off-topic because Your admin told you to do something and you're not doing it.

Well, that's most techs, isn't it? Can't say I care too much either way, just that I'm a pretty good Windows admin, who can command a pretty good salary doing that job, whereas my Linux skills are a bit rusty... and I don't think I can live off a salary of rust.

@HopelessN00b There's a world of difference between preferring to work on one platform and feeling a deep-seated need to convert everyone else with a sword.

Plus bash would probably choke on my PowerShell scripts and forkbomb the serves or something, which would probably be undesirable for everyone involved.

oi...SCCM is a pain

5:43 PM

Yup, it sure is.

OK folks, how is this not on topic? None of you have ever encountered a Java program that runs as a daemon in a production environment? I can't believe y'all lead such sheltered lives - we have a goddamn Lotus admin here...

@NathanC - Have you seen my answer/rant about it?

I'm waiting for the day when you can get it hosted in Azure.

Can't.. master... Flappy Bird.

@voretaq7 Folks being trigger-happy on the VTC isn't anything new, though, is it? At least that question only has one trigger-happy close-voter. There's at least one out there with 4.

@HopelessN00b Me yelling at this room (since the usual suspects are here) isn't anything new either.

@mossy FUCK FLAPPY BIRD! :P

5:49 PM

Although, to be a bit glib, it's off-topic because the proper course of action is to install a good anti-virus solution and wipe that java infection off the server... before it spreads to other systems.

Looking for Flappy Bird tips. Currently stuck on the first tube.

Tweeted by QuentinMoss on February 5, 2014 at 5:45 PM

I played it for like a minute last night. Is it free or do people actually pay for that shit?

@voretaq7 Haha i don't know. I just downloaded it.

The game company I worked for last summer shut down last week.

@Magellan at least you don't work there anymore?

@HopelessN00b yes, but lacking that you have to manage the problem.

5:51 PM

3 days away from closing an acquisition deal and the buyer pulled out and refused to pay the break fee. Probably so that the company would fold and they could buy the IP at auction.

@voretaq7 Was a good group of people. Not sure I was a great fit there, but it was good and the games were fun.

Would've been better if the other engineer wasn't such a lone wolf though.

@voretaq7 Unfortunately, the only other thing I know about managing persistent infections is taking that medication which blunts the outbreaks of genital herpes... and I don't that's applicable to a server.

@Magellan aroooooo

@HopelessN00b ...is there a medication I can take to make the security patches not come out the day after I push updates? :)

@voretaq7 amazon.com/Double-Scotch-Chivas-Glenlivet-Became/dp/0471662712/… onebox

amazon doesn't sell whisky, that's the best I could do :(

@Tanner Costco does.

And the Kirkland tequila is surprisingly good for a sipping tequila.

@Magellan Really? I'll have to give it a shot.

5:54 PM

@voretaq7 I don't think so... but I do know of one you can take to stop um "oily discharge" from coming out at inopportune times.

@Tanner yeah. Tried it back 3-4 years ago when you couldn't get it here. Was almost as good as Herradura.

@HopelessN00b When the capacitors on the motherboard start having oily discharges smoke can't be far behind. It's time to retire that server.

@voretaq7 Dell?

@Magellan no-name whitebox PCs 3 jobs ago

@voretaq7 ah. I lost so many desktops to that nasty nasty batch of Chinese knock-off capacitors in the OptiPlex series.

5:56 PM

I've never had a capacitor leak in a server power supply - some may have failed & taken out a PSU but never to the leak/smoke point

@Tanner Nonsense. And there may even be better places online to buy scotch... that's just the one I know of.

@Magellan as opposed to the batch of Chinese regular capacitors? :)

@voretaq7 Had an IBM monitor catch fire once.

@Magellan I had a sun monitor try to kill me once

actually technically it succeeded...

@voretaq7 by falling on you? They were ginormous.

5:57 PM

@Magellan by emptying its capacitors into me

So if I were to say I know almost nothing about configuring http load balancing (with mysql), where would you suggest I start researching?

@voretaq7 that's a very bad thing indeed.

@voretaq7 Yes, yes... the motherboard. That's what I was talking about. Not my penis. Of course not. Damned oily motherboard discharge.

it was one of the really old ones where the vsync/hsync adjustments weren't accessible without opening the case, and I was assured the unit was safetied and strapped to ground. I was lied to.

@mossy I'd talk to @DennisKaarsemaker

5:59 PM

@DennisKaarsemaker Hi.

@HopelessN00b Yeah, but Amazon doesn't. If I could order a subscription through Amazon and get free two day shipping... yeah baby.

Ughhh... anybody have a vasectomy? how bad was it?

@Tanner uh oh.

@Tanner yeah. wasn't too bad. You're pretty sore for a week or so.

@kce no...I have it installed now and local console works, but remote console refuses to

One of us needs to get stuff tied. I'd feel bad making her do it just because I'm scared for my precious balls.

6:03 PM

@Tanner If you're married in Washington, you actually have to have your spouse sign a waiver, which I find fairly offensive.

@Magellan seriously? wtf

do they do the same for abortions? :P

@Tanner that was my response. I'm thinking that they probably don't.

@voretaq7 Just saw some USENIX videos on DTrace and Flamegraphs. Good stuff.

@voretaq7 I've had a PC start on fire from the CPU power caps.

@Magellan dtrace is made of liquid awesome.

@ChrisS we detected the smoke from ours and emptied a fire extinguisher into the PSU before it could start the burning phase

@NathanC - Are you new to SCCM?

It's got a brutal learning curve.

@HopelessN00b
http://workplace.stackexchange.com/questions/19029/how-do-i-convince-my-boss-to-let-me-fix-his-computer/19032#19032

6:11 PM

@kce Yes...I've been reading technet articles and a bunch of things

the remote console just hates me it seems..

Do you get an error or does it just fail to connect?

Reply from 192.168.9.235: Destination host unreachable.

...oh...that would do it...

but, what? same subnet

Dennis Kaarsemaker

@mossy hi. sup?

@DennisKaarsemaker "So if I were to say I know almost nothing about configuring http load balancing (with mysql), where would you suggest I start researching?"

Dennis Kaarsemaker

err, wut?

what do you want to loadbalance, httpd or mysql?

6:15 PM

Both really.

I'm trying to answer a SF question a day. I hear there is a rubber ducky award if I gain 10K rep in a year.

Dennis Kaarsemaker

and for which purpose? Resilience or capacity?

capacity

load balancing MySQL depends on the DB design. For Apache httpd it's generally something sitting in front of Apache, though there are some limited built-in modules available.

Dennis Kaarsemaker

on the mysql side: read capacity or write capacity?

6:16 PM

read

Dennis Kaarsemaker

first approximation without knowing a lot more: haproxy in http mode in front of httpd, haproxy in tcp mode in front of mysql read-only slaves

if you want more than that, I'll send you my ~~consulting~~ conslutting rates :)

@mossy Dump mysql, convert to postgres and use pgpool.

Dennis Kaarsemaker

don't do postgres if you want working replication

@DennisKaarsemaker Do tell.

Hmm. I think what I'm getting hung up on is data replication.

I haven't done a lot research on this yet..

Dennis Kaarsemaker

6:21 PM

read the mysql manual chapter on replication

it's not that difficult

@kce thenubbyadmin.com/2014/01/09/…

There's plenty of info out there on MySQL replication and various forms of clusters...

Dennis Kaarsemaker

6

A: infrastructure of an web app

Wow, that's an enormously broad question :) It's quite off-topic for serverfault, so it'll probably be closed in a bit. But as it's saturday afternoon, I'm in a storytelling mood, so here's an answer, roughly based on a simplified version of how we grew the company I currently work at. The abbre...

an answer I once wrote on website scaling

@DennisKaarsemaker cl.ly/image/0F1e0l1R001o

@Iain - I don't know I could ever do it. I have a pretty limited skill set and the votes are hard to come by.

But we'll see...

6:23 PM

@kce Always good to aim for the stars.

@ChrisS Yeah I started to look around, but there's a lot of information. I guess I was just asking here to get an idea of what to focus on :p

@kce yeah most people are really mean with their votes on SF

I think there's an effect where the higher rep users are more likely to be voted up whereas the younglings are not.

I should say irregardless of content.

I think part of it is simply experience. Higher rep users know how to word questions to get more votes, even if the content of the post is essentially the same as another.

@kce I'm not convinced by that - the engaged community on SF is tiny - the majority of people just want their (generally crappy) question answered so they can get to the next checkin - this means votes are very hard co come by

6:30 PM

@ChrisS That's probably a more accurate hypothesis.

@kce good answer to crap question. Here's hoping you manage to pull a reversal badge from that. And next time, don't forget to mention the LART.

Fighting the good fight. That stuff used to happen all the time at previous job.

It took a long time but eventually I was able to repair some relationships (or at least so I believed). It made life easier for everyone.

@kce Part of it's also time. The longer you've been around, the more old questions and answers you have. Those old questions and answers tend to get the occasional upvote as views trickle in, which plays a pretty big role. I gained almost 1,000 rep that way when I wasn't active on the site for 9 months.

I need to stop whinging about voting.

This is weird..

6:35 PM

It just sort of how it is .

I can ping my computer from the server, but pinging the server gives "destination host unreachable"...

oh...wrong IP. yay caching

@NathanC DNS?

@Tanner Indeed...

@NathanC 10 minute TTLs for the win.

It's amazing how much investigation someone will do down the wrong path:

3

Q: IO related performance bottleneck on a LAMP server

I am administering a big LAMP server with some thousand users. About a week ago, things slowed down, and the only thing I see that the IO latency is increased dramatically. Users experience slow page loads, and I experience seconds of hanging when I want to save a file. The operating system is C...

linux performance lamp io

6:44 PM

Woman becomes first person to be jailed for trolling...themselves.

@voretaq7 Yeah, just jumped into the review queue for the first time in awhile. I'm rather surprised at some of the questions getting close votes. Perfectly valid questions about configuring certain services that probably aren't sysadmin-y enough for the community here.

configuring a local github server with google auth isn't an enthusiast-level question.

@Magellan that's not sysadminy enough?

@Tanner apparently not?

@Magellan Old IP entry in the DNS for when I first joined the server to the domain...didn't refresh when I changed the IP.

Console's working now.

@NathanC In other words.....Because Windows.

6:52 PM

@Tanner @Magellan certainly seems sysadmin-y enough to me. Is it still in the queue?

@voretaq7 yes. has 3 votes to close.

0

Q: Git github not working with google authenticator OSX

So I had git running on my computer just fine. My password was saved with the osxkeychain thingy and everything ran smoothly. Today I decided I should be safe and enable google authenticator 2-step authentication on all the sites that support it. Interestingly github supports it so I set it up. I...

macosx authentication git github google-authenticator

@tombull89 That image is terrifying

For @mdmarra...

'The monospaced-typewriter-font story is a COMPLETE FABRICATION! WAKE UP, SHEEPLE' 'It doesn't matter! Studies support single spaces!' 'Those results weren't statistically significant!' 'Fine, you win. I'm using double spaces right now!' 'Are not! We can all hear your stupid whitespace.'

@ewwhite newrepublic.com/article/115726/…

@voretaq7 I think the dialog box for the close link in questions should have a 'Leave Open' button if it's already received a close vote.

6:55 PM

@Magellan aaand now it has none. Perfectly cromulent question (though it could use a better answer)

user image

I've got one for you Microsoft admins out there. Um...confidence inspiring?! Saw this today while setting up the service (MS System Advisor online)

@tombull89 Probably missing the point, but I really don't recall seeing any hideously fat people like that when I was in Britain... or do you just hide them all somewhere when there's a foreigner in the area?

@voretaq7 yes. thank you.

@Magellan ...propose it as a feature request on mSF and I'll upvote it :)

@voretaq7 indeed. pondering whether I want to wade in there or not.

6:57 PM

the only issue I have with that question is it's really a "How do I GitHub?" question, but we allow Microsoft Azure and Amazon EC2 questions

@TheCleaner Sounds about right. Reminds me of the IE ESC blocks and default phishing/internet security warnings you'd see visiting the Microsoft website from a locked down IE browser window. Just another reason everyone ignores security warnings - because so many of them are eye-roll inducing.

@voretaq7 I've noticed those questions get no love (AWS and Azure).

or is it just me?

@HopelessN00b - it's pretty sad when you are basically stating "don't trust us...heck we don't trust us."

@Tanner Should they? Sure, cloud thingies get the MBAs all hot and bothered, but techies know better.

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