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15:02
Hi @voretaq7. How's things in the heart industry?
woah. our print server has gone batshit mental - once again.
...hmm...it reboots all the servers?
@tombull89 Big surprise.
d'oh
Servers don't simply go nutters. Something broke the stackexchange...something other than...solar flares.
15:10
hehehe, I just got a chance to shutdown the site with someone's blessing. muahahaha.
I HAVE THE POWAH
What are you rebooting?
ALL THE THINGS!
We had to kick a loadbalancer
watch it not reboot... it'll hang at an F1 prompt or something...
@ewwhite Ohh, the feeling...
15:11
@PeterGrace I called it! Dibs!
hahaha
Keyboard not found, press F1 to continue.
I said it was the loadbalancer going nuts!
it wasn't the root cause.
15:12
Some weirdo dropped a 40K character answer to a question and clogged all the buffer tubes.
(this is their "final solution" plan to ban Evan, permerantly. They're not gonna own up to that though).
I remember someone here once saying, SHARE YOUR SHAME! So...who broke the Exchange?
:-)
@tombull89 LOL
I wish.
No, we're really not sure what's happened yet, we're still digging through logs.
This is a really weird problem which is why we're not sure what it is yet.
posted on March 19, 2012 by Matt Simmons

I stumbled upon a great resource today that I had no idea existed. Apparently, USENIX hosts the Computer Failure Data Repository, which is a series of datasets from various installations that includes failure data for various components. There are around a dozen different data sets, most from HPC clusters, but they’re actively soliciting for additional [...]

15:28
@sysadmin1138 get out your jumper wire and tap out the appropriate bit sequence. hop to man!
@BartSilverstrim i haven't killed anyone yet today
@voretaq7 not even indirectly?
@BartSilverstrim not that I know of - monitoring hasn't reported any outages
@PeterGrace Re: economy of verbiage & RTFM - Remember most of us got to be this smart by reading the documentation (or learning how to google Right Damn Quick!)
@voretaq7 But we can't show off our intelligence if we don't regurgitate the information to people!
Besides...we're dealing with the next generation of system admins now. They went through a school system ideally created to give them information on a whim, where they didn't have to do things like "think" or "process" information so much as regurgitate it.
@BartSilverstrim I don't want to show off my intelligence, I want to not be bothered by questions that I produced documentation for
@BartSilverstrim those aren't sysadmins. they're users at best -- barely trained monkey creatures that have learned not to shit where they eat (we hope)
Ouch...
But how do new people in this field get up to speed?
I do find the younger generation lacking in curiosity...
but perhaps it's because they're mainly consumers of technology?
15:35
@ewwhite RTFM and the new fangled googlie thing just like the rest of us
I have found that young'uns today don't question. They "learn" the minimum to get by, and regurgitate information, and expect you to put information into the slot if you want it to get back out later.
They don't think or process information, they just grab it and repeat it.
@ewwhite "The wrong keys are electrified."
It may be a product of the google lifestyle.
"I want to know XYZ so I just google it and there it is!"
or rather just the webbie thing cos it's easier to ask the internet than learn to read
Google-fu is a skill, too.. and I've seen younger admins not look past the first result...
15:36
Indeed.
It's impossible to know everything about everything - that's why Google and SF is useful, but there's nothing quite like getting a book, documentation, or manual and having a good damn read.
We're dealing with a dumber generation, but they're more adept at something we're weak in.
Cheeky gits - remember I'm 22.
Dumber in general... but better with the USE of technology...
I still haven't figured out how to make good use of twitter...
Not everyone my age jumps to google when stuck with a problem (then again, I'm the only sysadmin I know my age).
15:38
@BartSilverstrim Dude, that's always been a problem
There have always been button-pusher "admins"
I started professionally at 22... and learned from really seasoned admins.
@ewwhite Yeah, some of our students are like that. Facebook ninja, but ask them to diagnose a hardware problem and their brain would leak out their ears, and boil on the floor.
@ewwhite there isn't one
so I got in the groove of best-practices...
@Iain Sure there is.
You can quickly twit something like system outages. Twitter does that all the time to themselves :-)
15:39
@BartSilverstrim Keeping up-to-date with porn stars?
@wfaulk I DON'T KEEP UP TO DATE WITH HER. she posts cute kitten pictures.
@BartSilverstrim trust me in this I've seen what you @Holocryptic @voretaq7 etc etc twat -
@BartSilverstrim I assume "kitten" is an alternate diminutive
No, she actually posts kitten pictures. Apparently it's what 20-something year old ex-porn stars do when they have money.
@Iain: you're on twitter?
I knew you could see my standalone posts on facebook...I rarely go on facebook anymore.
@BartSilverstrim I have an account - I don't use it though
15:42
Twitter can be good if you find the right people who post article links for useful things.
Really that's the only actual use case. It's like a news ticker with some humorous bylines thrown in.
@BartSilverstrim I don't have the comuptrons to filter it adequately
I personally use it as a filter to practice being less wordy.
Facebook was a nice time-waster, but christ it's getting worse with game noise and ad clutter.
Twitter kind of weans a little from it.
@BartSilverstrim I have a fairly restricted friends list that I regularly review. I also ignore everything by any new game anyone plays
I ignore most of the game stuff (set it to not show) but there are some that still manage to intrude. And the sorting algorithm keeps getting reset on me.
Twitter is more like a custom crawl line that can yield links to things of interest. An aggregator of pointers. And sometimes funny joke posts.
It can be useful for getting in touch with businesses you want to bitch about too, the ones the pretend to care about new media. Because it's limited in how much you can post at a time, they tend to pay more attention to it.
Facebook keeps trying to act like a community aggregator while being everything to everyone (make money from add-ons) so it's getting more and more cluttered while not having a good focus.
@Iain I usually just bitch about weather
15:55
For Facebook, I'm using Social Fixer.
It filters the newsfeed into tabs... so I can keep it clutter-free
Pretty granular filtering.
@voretaq7 I saw that.
When it says it fixes annoyances, does it kill people in your friend list?
3
@BartSilverstrim I'd pay for that "feature"
It can...
also: Apple Dividend announced today. I'm shocked - SHOCKED I SAY!
Was that the big announcement?
Wondered how long that would last.
16:05
@BartSilverstrim yeah
All the whiners that wanted them to do something with the money...even though it meant they could shut down production for years and still keep their workforce employed.
that and a stock repurchase
Investors whine and whine and whine.
I'm not thrilled about the dividend (though as a stockholder I certainly won't say no to money)
Now that Jobs is dead, it's time to start raiding the cookie jar.
16:06
but I'm pleased at the share repurchase program
How much is the div?
I would think they should be careful. Apple was at the point not all that long ago where it was something like 30 days from being bankrupt.
@BartSilverstrim looks like $2.65
Now they're worth more than the pope and they want to start letting the money trickle back out.
@BartSilverstrim I approve of the stock repurchase because of that -- If they do a split-and-buyback they'll have plenty of stock to give away to employees without diluting the share pool too much
the dividend... well they have the cash for it, so why not?
but I'd prefer to see them cancel that dividend if cash-on-hand drops below about $60B - having more money than your competitors is a good thing strategically
I compared the attitude somewhat to what happened here with the school (although granted there are really big differences legally, blah blah)
16:12
@BartSilverstrim schools have a different mandate -- your "dividend" would be enhanced scholarships
Our district had a "large" amount of money on hand in the bank, and certain people in the board thought it was a waste, so they made it a mission to spend it. I think that was the beginning of the projects to redo buildings.
@BartSilverstrim oh you mean your local school system? Hey at least you spent your cash-on-hand
Shortly after it was mostly spent, we got a governor that cut funding year over year, and we couldn't make budget without talks of layoffs.
My district took out huge bonds for our building refurbishments
Yeah, we have bond debt too.
16:13
nice - worst of both worlds eh?
Now I think we have our rating reduced, meaning our interest payments have risen.
Yups.
If we still had the cash in the bank, we could have ridden this out longer.
Next year we're shutting down outlying districts and consolidating.
More cuts means we're probably going to negotiate a merger with a neighboring district.
I think that was part of why Jobs didn't want the money spent.
Of course I didn't know him, just reading a lot about him...
but the picture I get is that Apple was really his big "artistic achievement" and legacy.
Especially after it almost died.
He was making sure it wouldn't happen again.
He personally didn't seem to give a rats ass about money.
Honestly I think he approached it through some warped lens of being an artist and perfectionist, even if it didn't make the most money.
The idea to spend money just to spend it, well, of course it pleases investors...they're not there to make great products or art, as Jobs saw it. I really think he lived in his own little reality, insulated from the real world and considered that rules just didn't apply to himself. And he was lucky enough to have the money and influence to largely be supported in that belief. Now that he's dead one of the biggest challenges will be maintaining that kind of "Artistic vision."
In our case spending the money just to spend it led to "Oh great who would have seen this coming?!" in our district. Well...just about everyone who knows bad times come after good times saw it coming, derp.
They spent our cushion so now we're all in the same boat as other cash-strapped districts. Raising taxes. Bigger fees in interest payments. Layoffs, slashing spending on things like tissues and notebooks. Ridiculous emphasis on turning off lights to save a few pennies here and there.
are districts cash-strapped because the tax base fell?
Not really.
I'm trying to figure out how schools went from being well-funded when I attended (1985-1998) to being total shit now.
We're a poor district to begin with; we have a lot of "poverty" level kids, from what I understand. We're largely a farming area.
There's also a restriction on how much you can raise taxes each year in our area.
16:26
G'day! Anyone know what the major difference between Microsoft Action Pack Solution Provider and Microsoft Action Pack Development and Design is?
There's also the businesses (walmart /cough) that came in and got a tax-free-pass thanks to our wonderful state...some kind of "business zone" thing that means no taxes for 10 years.
"Pro business"
psssh
It's supposed to give incentive for business...but they don't pay a fair share to the community.
But we get the HALO EFFECT! People going to Walmart will magically spend more on small shops around them. Yeah...right...
On top of that we had severe severe flooding last September.
Many families still haven't recovered.
where in the US is this?
Nice topic tag, guys.
16:30
@ewwhite Northeast PA.
I'm about 20 min. from NY border where I work.
@ewwhite You can go to youtube and search for "flooding athens pa" to see lots of video coverage.
But a number of families have had to move from the area. Condemned homes. Flooding wasn't covered.
Our schools became a shelter in the gyms for a few nights. mattresses upon mattresses brought in to house the residents.
I think we still have some teachers that are living with other teachers after homes were lost.
I live on a high point but lost power for three or four days straight. Not a big deal for some...but it's something when you consider that in the previous 6 years we've had maybe half an hour of power out at my house.
And we were actually cut off from getting anywhere out of town for a day before a path opened over the mountain to my parents house, where they still had power. We "evacuated" our house, packing what we could from the fridge and freezer into the minivan and following my dad who found a route out.
As soon as we got home, the coolant line in the van burst.
:-/
Quite an adventure.
Ladies and gentlemen, I will now attempt to perform a daring magic trick.
Here in front of us, we have two servers.
Watch carefully as I'm ssh'ed into both as root using a screen session...
I'm going to write server A's IP in server B's config file and vice versa....
this is not going to end well
REBOOT REBOOT REBOOT </claps giddily>
@BartSilverstrim Even more daring... no reboots!
16:39
anyone here have experience with band steering in large wifi deployments?
IS HE ALLOWED TO DO THAT
Now, for the big moment... /etc/init.d/networking stop && sleep 5 && /etc/init.d/networking start
"Oh god why didn't they come back?!?"
(Click 'Humanity' at the top.)
Where is Jeff Ferland's server reboot fit into that timescale?
Isn't it time to reboot the sun soon?
Long boot time means it's either part of a cluster or someone hasn't been patching it...
16:47
@voretaq7 Victorious! ... except some issues with the host vm's firewall, maybe?
I'm a just a victim in the cloud...
These were Amazon instances?
@BartSilverstrim No, moving a hardware instance into a VM instance. There are two IT groups at my company... everyone else and me. They take care of the server room, I run my own group of machines.
I guess in the modern age, we'd call that DevOps. Anyway, I'm moving from running independent hardware to running inside a VM server that they manage.
'afternoon, nerds
@MDMarra gnerds?
@voretaq7 stallman... -.-
16:53
could be
@JeffFerland ::shudder::
Anyway, thank you for watching my fantastic demonstration. Firewall "issues" turned out to be an arp cache that was lazy to expire, and life is good. bows
@JeffFerland I thought devops were people authorized to use screwdrivers on servers.
YAY! No fire for @jeffferland!
@BartSilverstrim I could keep it the same, but less hardware == less money, and failover is easier because they're folding replication to a remove site via block-level mirroring into it. It's like my work laptop... I don't do software updates on it, they do. The more stuff somebody else wants to manage, the happier I am as long as I can opt-out if it breaks things.
@JeffFerland ARP! ARP ARP ARP! :thud:
16:58
@JeffFerland That bites me in the ass every time I do a P2V
because OI
'll copy network settings
then forget that our core switch REALLY likes to cache ARP
@Joel "I don't want to wait around until 8pm -- I've logged you into the core switches. When you're done with the IP move type clear arp here, press enter, then wait 10 seconds and do it in the other window. Log out when you're done."
@voretaq7 I'm a one-man band, good sir
This is a great way to start a Monday: "ICMP checksum is wrong" when I ping our other offices
If anyone's familiar with Lefthand gear, there should be some easy rep here:
0
Q: HP StorageWorks P4500 G2 Manager Management

MDMarraAccording to the documentation, a management group should have an odd number of managers greater than 1. I have a four node SAN consisting of P4500 G2s. I plan on having two clusters with two nodes each in this management group, i.e.: -Managent_Group1 -Cluster1 -Node1 -Node2 -Cluster...

@Joel I would fear that if it weren't a problem I could shove on the provider's switches between here and there...
@petergrace still didn't share what blewed up.
@Joel "Who cares?! It's ICMP!"
@BartSilverstrim nothing blew up. It was a small fire. They roasted weenies.
0
Q: How to turn off Windows Azure's "This copy of Windows is not genuine" message?

SidIs there any setting/configuration item to avoid Windows Azure from printing that error on the screen or detecting it? I've put a screenshot below that shows the message when you RDP into the web role. My web role runs on Windows Azure Guest OS 1.17 (variant of Windows Server 2008 SP2) Backgro...

^^ gigglesnort
17:17
Gonna be Nomex Suit time for me in a couple hours. I get the joy of being the Stormcrow again and telling people things they don't want to hear. We've gone from being 80/20 local vs remote office users to 20/80 in the past 5 years.
@Adrian what do you have to tell them?
that the company needs to spring for people's ISP bills?
@voretaq7 The fact that adding 30% more people to our existing remote offices infrastructure is going to break the metaphoric bank. Our backups already run 16 hours each night.
@voretaq7 This is more the offices. we're not really appropriate for tele-commuting.
@Adrian are you doing full backups every night or something? That's a lot of data!
@voretaq7 Nope. That's just 12 hours of Rsync.
Bleh
then again guess how long my monthly full dump takes?
2
17:21
That can SOO be taken out of context.
@BartSilverstrim and yet is still applicable to our office backups with either interpretation!
@voretaq7 Our tape runs are 35 hours. This is just the D2D part.
@Adrian Uhmmm...
No infrastructure funding?
17:22
This is just a diff?
@Adrian I don't have tapes you insensitive clod!
@adrian: are you the one that works for the non-prof?
@voretaq7 Cowboy Neal?
@JeffFerland Not structured or planned in any fashion.
@voretaq7 I've got a DDS-2 drive laying around if you want it.
17:23
@BartSilverstrim yep. herding cats to plan Administrative stuff.
(nightly incrementals are ~7 hours, weekly differentials are ~9, monthly fulls are just under 50)
@ChrisS naw, then I'd have to go to the datacenter and change tapes
we dump to disk and then rsync to an offsite facility
the rsync is the pain and suffering because I have it throttled to avoid creating bandwidth overages
@Adrian How big are these servers you're backing up?
@BartSilverstrim That's the sad part. It's not even whole servers, just data partitions. Under 500GB across 12 buildings.
Our disaster recovery involves 4 hours at each site with an Ubuntu install CD.
you work for the homeless shelters, yes?
|      72 | NY-0071    | Append    |       1 | 1,415,171,370 |        0 |    3,456,000 | 2012-03-17 03:26:30 |
|      73 | NY-0072    | Full      |       1 | 2,147,475,573 |        0 |    3,456,000 | 2012-01-17 22:46:22 |
17:25
12 buildings?!
@BartSilverstrim bingo. but also 1000 apartments of supportive housing for formerly-homeless mentally-ill people
^ Not what I wanted to see in my backup log
@voretaq7 Can you QoS instead of bandwidth limit?
@Adrian There's mentally ill people allowed on the Internet? O_0
@JeffFerland no, because it would happily chew up 100Mb/sec syncing
17:27
@BartSilverstrim I think most of them are.....
@BartSilverstrim I always thought it was a requirement!
@voretaq7 you're just saying that because you're wearing a button up shirt and tie and boxer-briefs.
@voretaq7 So? Let it use whatever's free.
@JeffFerland it doesn't create a performance problem, it creates a financial one (drives up the 95th percentile, and thus our bandwidth bill)
@voretaq7 Ahhhhhhhh... no leased line. Gotcha.
17:28
@JeffFerland I let it use up to the CIR limit (which it happily does)
@JeffFerland yeah - I have a gigabit link to play with, but if I use it all the accounting people come and ask me what the hell is going on with the bandwidth bill :-(
Most of all though, I really hate having to backup our Cyrus IMAP spool with rsync. That's just painful.
@voretaq7 Avian packet storm. :D
(and seeing as how the previous admin had no concept of these things and we were getting like $5000 overage bills...)
Hey if I could get pigeons into the datacenter I'd put the backups on 100GB compact flash cards and have 'em flown out!
I'd like some recommendations on good-linux friendly backup software.
@ewwhite Bacula
17:30
For years, my standalone servers used Cactus Lone-Tar.
and it works well... for standalone servers.
@ewwhite Bacula, definitely.
but I want Backup Exec-like features for Linux.
@voretaq7 Have somebody at the on-site locations whose job it is to mail a card once a day?
Most of the time I love the people in my hallway. I leave my office door open because no one in this hallway is on my team, so people only stop in to talk sports. Today, though, the old school (semi incompetent) Solaris admin across the hall from me is lecturing the clueless Dev about how mod_proxy works (incorrectly), but her assertions about how it works are also incorrect.
I wish I could fire everyone that I work with.
If you don't need the features of Bacula I can also recommend tarsnap
17:31
in something that can deal with remote systems
Bacula better than Amanda?
@ewwhite Can you mention what feature you're talking about? I never found bacula lacking for Linux systems.
our datacenter would charge for it like a tape rotation :-/
's part of why I implemented this dump and sync process -- dealing with tape rotations sucks if the equipment isn't local
I may have looked at Bacula years ago, and it just didn't seem polished.
@Adrian I think it is personally
17:32
but I may have also been scared of the learning curve
@ewwhite Bacula isn't pretty, but it's good
the learning curve is pretty steep tho
worse than backup exec?
Cactus lone-tar is damn-easy...
I have only limited experience with Amanda, but I never got it working well enough to recommend it
but just doesn't scale
@voretaq7 Wait, when you say 12 offsite locations, you don't mean 12 offices, you mean 12 data centers?
17:33
@ewwhite Take Backup Exec and replace the GUI with a console -- that's Bacula.
and I'm working with an odd dataset as well... super-compressible..
@ewwhite Our wierd old data guy loved Amanda. But he programmed in Paradox too. I'd started looking into Amanda and Bacula before the boss decided to take that project over and start shopping for an outsourced backup solution with somebody like Iron Mountain.
so I want optimizations that can accommodate that
@JeffFerland <- isn't the one with 12 locations. I've only got 3 to worry about :)
@voretaq7 Ah, crossed my wires...
Undetected conversation collision error. E_CONVO_COLLISION (can you tell I've done some C programming this week?)
17:36
@JeffFerland nope. 1 DC. All but 500GB lives there. But they all have to be interconnected. With consumer-grade DSL circuits.
@JeffFerland E_EEEEEEE // Monkey loose in datacenter.
@Adrian EW EW EW EW EW EW EW! You said the D word!
And the mgmt. just decided to hook our newest site (due to complete in 4 months) with a DSL to "save money" They'll lose more than what they save over T1 lines in lost-time waiting for page displays in the first month.
room topic changed to The Comms Room: This is *NOT a place for 'Live Support', ask on the main site. You came in here for an argument? Oh I'm sorry - this is abuse! [effing-markdown]*
@Adrian Unless your upload is pretty high and they can't get you a good upstream rate, why? T1 is a bit slow.
This hurts.
17:40
@Adrian Why not go FiOS or Cable?
It's at least as good/reliable as DSL, cheaper (usually) and faster (almost always)
@JeffFerland I don't think we even HAVE new FiOS rollouts in Seattle anymore.
I wish I could get a better connection at home...
@SmallClanger wow. wow. wow. ow.
@voretaq7 And the Cable is a Broadstripe monopoly concession in this area. gag
One of the projects I have to make time to hassle over for our "upgraded DSL" is "what speed should be we be seeing? Because if we're not going to get it, I want to have the lower priced version again..."
17:42
@tombull89 "Comments have been disabled". Probably for the best.
@Adrian it's Cablevision here, but it's better than what we could get from DSL providers
@SmallClanger Afraid of the audio here in office...what is the TLDR on it?
@BartSilverstrim Official answer is "We Don't Know"
we had DSL uplinks at our old office and they were AWFUL - major packet loss and latency spikes
@petergrace SEE WHAT HAPPENS WHEN YOU LET DEVS PLAY WITH SERVERS?! DO YOU SEE WHAT HAPPENS?! /bashes headlights with crowbar DO YOU SEE WHAT HAPPENS, LARRY?
2
17:43
@PeterGrace Unofficial answer is "we're doing rubber-hose debugging with the dev leads" ?
@BartSilverstrim It's SFW, although it might make you bang your head on your desk. TLDR="Girl spends 4 minutes trying to work out time taken to travel 80m at 80mph."
@voretaq7 Reliability is the problem we have. Our regular "entertainment" internet for the client is very unreliable. They won't let you use your own equipment and theirs crashes every couple days at inopportune times.
@SmallClanger O_0
... and denies the answer when she's told it.
@Adrian we have occasional fault reports from monitoring (packet loss >3%) but it's never been noticeable so I content myself with yelling at the provider once a month about it.
17:46
@voretaq7 And my Comcast in the 'burbs in fine. It's just the downtown business core that get taken behind the shed for over-priced under-performing Cable. 12Mbit is $115/mo.
@Adrian yeah that's not acceptable
We won't get 15 until this summer.
no shared-link no-bandwidth-guarantee service is worth that much
@voretaq7 Truly. Comcast out in the neighborhoods is half that.
@Adrian FiOS is Love
I've had zero problems with it
well... half a problem
my channel guide is busted because I disconnected my Verizon router (piece of shit)
but I don't care abotu channel guides.
17:54
@voretaq7 Yeah, that's not bad. Even Comcast has plenty of issues around here.
Quick question: Is there a way to assign a variable in the attribute editor in Active Directory to point to another attribute so both fields are the same?
@SmallClanger $DEITY, I hope that's fake.
18:10
@ChrisS If it isn't, I'm pretty sure that guy is divorced, now.
Why would he be divorced?
If he has a lot of $$ then having a stupid wife isn't necessarily a problem for him, I'd think.
Even a stupid wife wouldn't take kindly to having said stupidity broadcast on youtube, though. (Unless he was seriously loaded)
18:31
@SmallClanger That's 80 meters at 80 miles per hour, right? Because that's the only way it would even remotely be excusable. :)
that's better
18:44
@SmallClanger It could be part of her stupidity.
we have an account called a "high yield savings" that would pay you a rate of 0.30% apy <-- Yeah, 0.3% needs air-quotes when you call it "high yield"
Welcome to the new economy.
The EconomyStupid.
Al Gore invented that term
If you're not rich it's your own fault.
Damnit. I'm such a failure.
18:48
Just listen to the wealthy people.
Here's something I found amusing...
I do! They keep telling me to put my money in the collection plate
I mean
offtopic. sorry
Listening to a skeptic's guide podcast. They talked about this thing in countries basically trafficking in human organs. Rich guy needs, say, a liver. The broker arranges it with some poor sap; hey, we'll give you $2K for your liver. I mean, they live on like $2/day ordinarily.
And it's illegal, but doctors, companies, etc. look the other way because they're makin' money.
And they take this idiot's liver, and may or may not actually pay. The guy didn't even, in the case they mentioned, know what his liver was.
So basically they're preying on these people's ignorance. And this was an illegal human rights violation.
But if you take advantage of people financially, with mortgage terms, or credit debt, or whatever...if you're financially ignorant, that's your own fault when you're taken advantage of. That's okay.
@BartSilverstrim there's nothing inherently wrong with that -- the concept of organ donation for profit is sketchy, but not universally frowned upon
Made 10.2% in last week. I should go into daytrading. =]
It's illegal where they did that. The illegal part was they forge paperwork saying they're related to the rich person.
Related and donating, that is.
Really it's black market organ purchasing.
And they don't always actually pay the person who "donated" what was promised.
18:52
@BartSilverstrim that's a different kind of illegality -- personally I think if you want to donate a kidney, part of your liver, etc. to $_ANYONE for $_ANY_REASON it should be allowed
the thing is they didn't even know what they were donating.
@BartSilverstrim which is why it's a crime, and an ethics violation.
It would be like offering you 2 grand for something, just hop on this gurney...you'll be fine in a few hours (except for recovery) and you agree to it.
But they agree because they're poor and ignorant.
no surgeon should have agreed to perform that operation
These people were knowingly taking advantage of them.
But when it's done for economic gain, that's okay (bankers/certain businesses)
Taking knowing advantage of someone's ignorance.
18:54
@BartSilverstrim that's going to happen anyway though, and I'd argue that by making it damn-near-impossible to "buy" a liver/kidney/whatever the current medical climate makes it more likely.
Surgeon profited. Hospital profited. Wealthy person got what they wanted. Broker profited. Sucker may have lost an eye or liver or kidney but...hey, learned lesson :-P
@BartSilverstrim Unrestricted capitalism at its finest!
And there goes the third drive. My life is so fun this week.
the surgeon will probably lose their license though
I just thought it was a funny parallel to draw on my part. Horrible ethics and human rights violation to take advantage of someone's ignorance to get a liver, but to encourage someone to get into a situation where you can take most of their money and drive them into bankruptcy? That's their fault.
@voretaq7 This might have been in India or China.
They don't have human rights records.
:-P
18:57
@BartSilverstrim but they do have medical boards -- it may not stop them from practicing in a backwater town somewhere though
Didn't you know Americans like sticking their noses into other countries business rather than take care of their own backyards?
@BartSilverstrim We're the world's yenta aunt - constantly meddling and trying to marry everyone off
speaking of which, are you single? Turkey could really use a good husband!
We have lots of little violations of workers rights here...but ignore that, we have KIDS MAKING IPHONES OVERSEAS! To the IndigantMobile!
@BartSilverstrim "little" violations?
we have plenty of HUGE violations
18:59
Major
Little minor things. THIS IS AMERICA. SPEAKING POORLY OF AMERICA IS A VIOLATION OF PATRIOTISM.
forced overtime, below-minimum-wage pay, etc.
Won't be long before the new NSA facility is online, after all.

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