2021 Science Fiction & Fantasy Stack Exchange Moderator Election Chat

b_jonas

00:00

Posted.

@JackBNimble ^ see above

@hyper-neutrino "fully discontinued" => people keep using systems that depend on fully discontinued products from Microsoft like Windows XP, so it's not a given that you have to shut down the site just because of that :(

@cairdcoinheringaahing How many attempts were there for a Literature site?

caird coinheringaahing

@b_jonas To my knowledge, this is at least the second, possibly the third

b_jonas

@SQB That's Super User, that's where I complain "windows is broken, how do I work this around?"

@cairdcoinheringaahing It's the second that actually got started. I wonder how many attempts failed on Area 51.

@cairdcoinheringaahing We do have that, it's Meta SE, except when it's about the API, in which case it's StackApps

caird coinheringaahing

@b_jonas I find it interesting that I've had 3 people link me to meta.se when my last but one message before that literally links to a meta discussion that I linked to :P

MSE is my third highest site by rep, and I'm working towards Marshal there, I think I know what its for :P

b_jonas

Yes, now I see that other people have pointed it out figured it was a joke.

caird coinheringaahing

No worries :)

Tone and sarcasm is difficult to convey via text :P

b_jonas

00:21

A lot of sites seem to change scope after they're started, and they often change name afterwards too. Mythology SE got changed to Mythology and Folklore SE. SciFi SE got changed to SciFi and Fantasy SE. Beer SE got changed to Beer, Wine & Spirits SE, which I know because I have a question about stronger alcoholic drink there. I think Anime was always Anime & Manga SE, but I'm not sure about the history there. Area 51 seems to only show the current titles ... except for Mythology? I'm confused.

Code Golf and Programming Puzzles got retitled to just Code Golf because that's what everyone posted, and there too Area 51 shows the old name.

Well now it's called Code golf & coding challenges. Weird.

hyper-neutrino

well technically from Programming Puzzles and Code Golf => Code Golf and Coding Challenges

b_jonas

I know Programmers SE got renamed to Software Engineering SE, but I think that wasn't because the scope changed but because the old name wasn't expressive enough of the existing scope. The new name isn't much better, it should say Programming Theory or something like that instead, but maybe this is more effective about their complaint that SO sent rubbish questions over to them.

@hyper-neutrino Wasn't it just Code Golf in between?

Here, codegolf.meta.stackexchange.com/q/5/6691 says it used to be just Code Golf

Alex

The first site was just plain Stack. When they started getting too many posts they added a site called Stack Overflow.

hyper-neutrino

er, maybe it was once just Code Golf

i may have been inactive for a bit during that change

b_jonas

@Alex No, but MathOverflow officially changed from Math Overflow I think, or maybe backwards

Alex

00:27

in The Reading Room, Apr 20 at 23:26, by Alex

@Randal'Thor I'd think some would spill over.

caird coinheringaahing

@b_jonas Originally, we were Stack Overflow, then Code Golf, then Programming Puzzles and Code Golf, then Code Golf and Coding Challenges

hyper-neutrino

oh so the Code Golf name came before PPCG

that explains why i wasn't around for it

b_jonas

@cairdcoinheringaahing Hehe

caird coinheringaahing

@b_jonas No joke, we started out on SO :p

b_jonas

@hyper-neutrino Oh!

@cairdcoinheringaahing Yes, I know about that part.

You started a site as a charity to get those questions away from SO which didn't want it.

caird coinheringaahing

00:29

@b_jonas Ooh, that needs better tagging, thanks for bringing that to my attention :P

@b_jonas And now, we ~~rival SO in activity~~ complain about SO in chat :P

Alex

Seasoned Advice started on Stack Overflow too. People posted their shortest reproducible recipe and asked why their food didn't turn out properly.

b_jonas

@Alex Wait, really?

Alex

The cooks weren't too happy to be told that there were bugs in their food, though.

hyper-neutrino

lol

caird coinheringaahing

Free protein :P

b_jonas

00:30

ah no, I misremembered. It was always MathOverflow without the space, despite that it got named after Stack Overflow which does have the space

No wait.

meta.mathoverflow.net/a/2994/5340 “the first 2009 design of the site said "Math Overflow" with a space, as one would expect from a Stack Overflow analogue, this comment by Anton suggests that he thought of the site without a space from the very beginning, and in 2010 the design caught up.”

So it did have a space but that was probably a mistake.

Alex

Elect me as moderator and I'll remove the space from the site name.

caird coinheringaahing

Elect me as mod and I'll golf every answer on the site :P

b_jonas

@Alex Which space? ScienceFiction & Fantasy? Or Science Fiction & Fantasy StackExchange? Either way, I don't think diamonds have a power to change the name.

caird coinheringaahing

"Why does this inconsistency exist in Harry Potter?" "JKR bad at math"

hyper-neutrino

The Stack Exchange Site About The Literature Genres Of Science Fiction And Fantasy

code-bowling

Alex

00:35

@cairdcoinheringaahing So harry-potter questions are on topic on MathOverflow?

caird coinheringaahing

@Alex Oh I was talking about SciFi, but sure, harry-potter is now on topic on MO :P

b_jonas

@Alex Probably no, unless they're also about research questions in mathematics, and I can't imagine such a question about Harry Potter.

Alex

@b_jonas The space things like Star Wars and Star Treck take place in.

b_jonas

@Alex Ah.

Alex

@b_jonas There's no secret math formula that could reconcile 800 students with 5 girls and 5 boys per year per house?

b_jonas

00:38

@Alex I'm still bothered more by there being too few teachers, because the 800 students isn't in the books, but Snape teaching all seven years for four hours a week each is.

Maybe all teachers use time turners. It would explain why they have to be replaced so often.

Alex

@b_jonas The book says that three quarters of the stadium was supporting Gryffindor and 200 were supporting Slytherin.

caird coinheringaahing

@Alex 790 non-binary people works for me, as mentioning the subject of gender is enough to piss off JKR which I;m happy about :P

b_jonas

@Alex Wait, where is that?

What book and chapter?

Alex

@b_jonas Third book.

caird coinheringaahing

Make that 520 not 790

Alex

00:40

24

A: How many students attended Hogwarts?

Like many things in the series, there seems to be various different lines of evidence that don't all necessarily lead to the same conclusion. It should be kept in mind that there is not necessarily a reason why there should or would be the same amount of students from one year to the next. Genera...

Discussed at length there.

But I'm not a mathmetician.

b_jonas

Prisoner chapter 15. 200 Slytherins. Indeed, wow.

caird coinheringaahing

JKR really should've avoided mentioning numbers at all :P

b_jonas

@cairdcoinheringaahing And that's a good thing.

That's why I assumed the 800 came from later, like in an interview or more likely on one of the Pottermores, where she and her ghost-writers started to make up all sorts of attempted world-building,

rather than realize that worldbuilding is exactly what Rowling is bad at, and it would be better to just stop and refuse those questions.

But it seems like, unlike the Giant who writes OOTS, Rowling didn't like to refuse a question because it's out of scope for his story, she only refuses if it would potentially spoil future books.

The Giant explicitly says that he only does as much worldbuilding as he needs for the story, and often refuses or ignores questions with creeping scope, answering only the ones that are relevant to his story.

And he's actually good at worldbuilding, I might add.

sigh

This is mostly why I only care about the book canon, plus the early interviews.

And the original website.

I did read the three supplementary books, and the two that attempt to do worldbuilding are bad, whereas the one that tells stories is okay.

caird coinheringaahing

I like Quidditch through the Ages. Provides some nice historical worldbuilding. The issue is when she tries to get familiar characters involved (e.g. the entirety of the FB movies)

Haven't read Tales or Fantastic Beasts tho

Alex

00:59

Just get the mashup: Fantastic Tales Through the Ages and How to Tell Them

DavidW

02:54

@b_jonas No, that's not true. You forget that there's an implicit "no winner" that's last on the list, and "no winner" can beat a candidate you don't like. So it wouldn't ever come down to just "G vs. H" it would come down to "G, H and No Winner." And by ranking H at all, you say you prefer H to "No Winner," which might be enough to get H elected.

So if there's a (or more than one) candidate you specifically don't want to win, you should not rank them, by which you say you would prefer no winner to them.

SQB

06:30

Candidates still need to reach the threshold in order to win.

SQB

06:46

This tells me the voting method should be explained better. Either on the election page itself, or somewhere in the help section.

The latter being lacking in regard to elections.

b_jonas

07:56

meta.stackexchange.com/q/366611/222298 Yeah, it's getting mixed up and down votes and edits. I didn't think it would work, but I had to try.

They're trying to defend the current misleading advice in a weird way.

@DavidW Whether there's no winner is decided by what the SE overlords think, not by the election results. They say "insufficient votes" but don't actually specify a threshold.

@SQB What threshold?

SQB

@b_jonas there's a threshold calculated, based on the number of seats and the number of votes. A candidate must reach that threshold to be elected. I imagine an election could just fizzle out, with no candidate having been elected.

b_jonas

@SQB And do we know how that's calculated? Where is this described?

SQB

258

Q: How are moderator election votes counted, in plain English?

The election pages' sidebars state that Stack Exchange elections use the Meek STV vote-counting method: After m days, the final voting results will be freely downloadable from this page forever, and we will calculate the n winners using OpenSTV with the Meek STV method. How does that work? ...

b_jonas

If there is a threshold, is it just like if you ranked the first three candidates like in the past, because there are only three rounds, and changing to ranking more than three was the mistake?

SQB

I think that one gives a fairly good explanation of the vote counting method as I understand it.

No, even with just ranking three candidates, there can be multiple rounds.

For example the first Worldbuilding election, linked from one of the answers to that question I linked to.

opavote.com/results/4895722432364544/0

It had 22 rounds, but (AFAIK) under the old voting rules of picking just 3 candidates.

So as I understand it, the instructions are correct: rank the candidates who you think will make good mods; do not rank the ones you don't want to see as a mod.

b_jonas

08:13

@SQB Yes, with three candidates there can be two rounds.

Wait, 22 rounds? Ok.

Thanks, I'll try to look at these later.

It's possible that the real answer is more complicated then and sometimes it's worth to rank all candidates, sometimes it's not, and also that this election where we have five or six usable candidates but I can't predict which of the six will be popular, this is an example where it would be a bad idea if I didn't rank all six.

TheLethalCarrot

If you actually think all of those 6 would be good mods, rank them, else don't

b_jonas

@TheLethalCarrot I think they'd be better mods than Shakar, but then the Meta diamonds decided I shouldn't say that.

And I still think what I said in that post is right: if I hadn't known of the voting method from previous elections, I'd have kept my original vote that ranked only four of the candidates, because that advise is misleading and makes it sound like this is an approval voting and if I just vote on all six then if nobody votes for Shakar then my ranking of the six would be worthless

Mithical

I have ranked six out of seven candidates, because I do not want my vote going to that seventh candidate under any circumstances.

TheLethalCarrot

Mm? Your vote can't go to someone you didn't vote for can it? I thought it went into Exhausted in that case?

b_jonas

The whole situation is ridiculous. There are five hundred voters, most of them are probably totally uninformed and don't know these candidates. The current diamonds and the few other people in the know are not willing to speak up in the meta to speak clearly for or against candidates, I don't know why. Even Rand only says that there are four or five candidates that would be acceptable as a mod, not who the other questionable one is.

SQB

08:25

Would it be correct to see it as approval, with ranking within those approved?

b_jonas

I am trying to spend time figuring out which candidate would be better, because I don't know all these candidates and can't guess, but I can't if there's no real good information available. The campaign statements tell very little. Most people won't spend even this amount of time.

SQB

Hm. Maybe we should have a Campaign phase after the nominations.

TheLethalCarrot

@b_jonas You don't want to put too much weight into what a couple of user's think whether they have to work alongside the elected or not. They are trying not to sway the vote one way or the other. And if they speak out against someone and then have to work with them then that isn't good for either

Mithical

@TheLethalCarrot precisely

b_jonas

@SQB No it wouldn't be, because your first ranked vote counts for the most, if slightly more than half of the voters put candidate A first and slightly less than half puts C first then A will be elected, even if B is second rank on everyone's vote. An approval vote is one that would pick B in that case.

TheLethalCarrot

08:28

@Mithical So why vote for 6? If you only vote for 1, it still won't go to the 7th in any case will it?

b_jonas

@TheLethalCarrot Yes, because I'm a user who can't remember which of those candidates did what during the ten years I was here, and don't follow all the moderation thing that happens behind the scene, except in the case of a few selected cases that impact me directly like my own posts. But there are a few users here who actually familiar with all those candidates, or at least most of them.

@TheLethalCarrot I don't think there's a difference between voting for 6 and voting for 7.

SQB

@b_jonas I meant on a personal level. You approve of a number of candidates, then rank those.

Mithical

@TheLethalCarrot It won't, but it also won't go against the seventh.

TheLethalCarrot

Could it though if Exhausted gets more than the 7th?

SQB

@b_jonas sounds like a question for Politics, perhaps.

b_jonas

08:30

@TheLethalCarrot If I vote for only 1, and most votes are tied between Shakar and a one other among the five, then Shakar will get elected and my votes doesn't stop it. I have to rank all six if I can't predict who will race against Shakar.

I don't care who "your vote goes to", I care about the actual effect of what I do, and misleading advice about that.

TheLethalCarrot

I'm gonna be honest, I think you're just thinking too hard about this whole thing.

b_jonas

In election systems like we use for the parliamental elections here, your vote is only valid if you only vote for exactly one candidate. In that system, if you know of one really bad candidate but can't spend the time to research who among the other five are popular, then you should vote for one of the others, yes. But this is a ranked election, it doesn't work that way.

@TheLethalCarrot Yes, I'm fucking thinking too hard about this because I care about what effect my actions have.

Also because I think having good diamonds can make or break an SE site like this, but we don't have a good system to pick those moderators, at least the election isn't that.

Not with five hundred people voting and there being less information available than in a political governmental election.

If I spend this many hours on the internet for a government election, I would at least learn something about what people expect about the parties in a government election.

Yes, I won't have perfect information or a clear answer for who I should vote for, but I would be more informed than here.

All I could find out is that TLC spends all their time on the review queue, ibid and Adamant spends all their time on writing good answers, that the review queue would be ged done anyway so it wouldn't be a loss, I can't really predict if ibid or Adamant would write fewer good answers if they were diamonds, probably no because Tsundoku still writes lots of good answers on Lit after he got a diamond, but I have no idea about the other three candidates.

Yes, Jack runs the blog, but that doesn't seem to interact with the election much.

(We have a blog?)

TheLethalCarrot

@b_jonas I will just clarify that I don't spend all my time in the review queue haha

SQB

17 mins ago, by SQB

Hm. Maybe we should have a Campaign phase after the nominations.

Mithical

That's kinda the primary, no?

SQB

08:46

Except that we didn't have a primary, since we had less than 10 candidates.

But I read someone criticising the fact that late nominations (such as mine and @Adamant's) don't allow for the same level of interaction in the comments as earlier ones do.

@b_jonas On the subject of STV, CGP Grey has a series of videos on the subject. This one shows it in depth, including not voting for a candidate and not enough candidates reaching the threshold (although how the latter is handled is different on SE).

b_jonas

Wait, I have a clearer argument.

TheLethalCarrot

@SQB There's been a few discussion in here about that

Jun 14 at 8:35, by TheLethalCarrot

You can't really comment on nominations once it moves to the Election phase though which is a shame

One around there

b_jonas

@Randal'Thor I hope you won't be offended if I call you out on this, but it applies to other people as well. IIRC on Sci Fi, we had a diamond with lots of contributions who left the site after another user got elected to diamond and the first one felt they couldn't work together. If you say that you could work together with five of the candidates but we don't know which five, that sounds to me like you're risking such a situation to repeat.

If you actually wouldn't leave for six of the candidates, you can say that, but you really should only say that if you mean it. If you would leave for two of the candidates, it would be nice if you could be clear on this.

SQB

TBH, it's not quite clear to me if there were an election using (Meek) STV between an excellent candidate, a good candidate, an okay candidate, a hold-my-nose candidate, a bad candidate, and an even worse candidate.
Of course, I shouldn't rank the last two, but it's not clear to me if it's advantageous to rank the hold-my-nose candidate if I fear one of the bad candidates might win.

b_jonas

@SQB We did mention that, and that would be fixed if people who do know something about the candidates would tell it clearly on meta, rather than not saying anything because the comments are closed. I wonder if I should post on meta about this anyway, just to spark interest.

@SQB That applies if you know which one is the good and okay candidate. In this case, I have no idea which candidate is the second worst after Shakar (I figured Shakar is the worst but that is open for debate too if you want to convince me otherwise), so I should vote for six, but again, I wouldn't if I hadn't known about the secret approval system.

If you did know of an actual ranking among the other five, perhaps the answer is different, I'm no longer confident that I understand the voting system enough to answer that and I will try to look into it later.

SQB

08:54

Hmm... Since you can change your vote up until the last moment, maybe the Election phase is the Campaign phase.

TheLethalCarrot

@SQB In a way, just have no "official" way of communicating to the nominees

SQB

@b_jonas I don't think there's a secret approval system.

b_jonas

Sorry, secret ranking system.

Ranking is the secret, approval is what the new election page suggests.

SQB

I don't think ranking was ever a secret. At least, I've always known it was a ranked choice.

b_jonas

The statement on the election page is "You should only rank the candidates you think would make good moderators." which sounds like this is an approval voting, the mod page just doesn't dare to say it because the overlords think that math intimidates people and they shouldn't talk about the actual voting system.

@SQB You were here for previous elections on SE when they didn't have that instruction, weren't you? I was too.

It wasn't secret, now it was, or at least disguised and the actual answer hidden away.

I would like us to go back

TheLethalCarrot

08:58

You know, as far as I'm aware, the election system is exactly the same as it used to be, you just now have the option to rank more than 3 candidates should you wish

SQB

@b_jonas yes, I was. On several stacks. And I've always understood that the order of my choices mattered.

But I agree that we could do with a better explanation of the voting method used.

b_jonas

Our government election doesn't come with misleading advice like "only vote for a party that you think would be a good choice to govern the country". That would be misleading, it would make people think it's worth to not vote for anyone because all politicians are bad. It comes with honest instructions "vote for exactly one of these choices",

on the same giant posters that also say that you must use a pen and write a cross in the circle.

@TheLethalCarrot Exactly. But a newcomer might not know that, and I suspect that many of the 500 voters haven't been here for previous elections.

TheLethalCarrot

So if the voting instructions here were something like "Vote for as many or as few as you like with the higher preference to the top" that would be better?

b_jonas

@TheLethalCarrot Yes, and we could get that by just removing the second paragraph, keeping "Drag and drop or click your selections in order of preference, with the most desirable candidate as first choice.", so it's an easy edit too.

If they said they aren't willing to change the page for this election but they'll fix it for future elections, I could perhaps accept that.

But they aren't saying that. The Meta guys seem to be saying I don't have a candidate for instructions so clear that everyone would understand (do you think that's even possible?), so I should go to hell and be satisfied with the current bad wording.

SQB

4

Q: In a PR/STV system, is there any point in voting for a candidate I don't like to fight against one I like even less?

There's an upcoming election which features a particular candidate whose politics I have a problem with. Not only do I not want them to get in but I don't even want them to feel good or encouraged by getting a respectable count. If there was a form of anti-vote I'd be giving it to them. If my pre...

voting voting-systems proportional-representation

TheLethalCarrot

09:04

I think you might be over-exaggerating the comments there which is a bit unfair

b_jonas

@TheLethalCarrot Yes, I probably am.

So I just edited my post to make it propose just one thing, dropping the second paragraph, not that someone might write something better. This is perhaps more actionable.

SQB

And especially this answer:

6

A: In a PR/STV system, is there any point in voting for a candidate I don't like to fight against one I like even less?

Morally, I agree with the message of the other current answers that in the absence of more information on the intentions of your fellow voters, it is often worth honestly stating your full ordering of preferences for candidates under STV. However it is worth noting that because the order in whi...

b_jonas

@SQB Thanks for the link, I'll look at that later too

SQB

It's a bit late to do so for this election, but how about a meta post for each candidate, to ask them questions?

TheLethalCarrot

Most candidates are pingable in here or a mod can superping them if needed. If anyone wants to ask a candidate anything still doing it in here should be fine for this one

@SQB If we have another election where comments are still locked on the election stage, sure. However, I'd rather that was changed so we wouldn't have to come up with workarounds

SQB

09:17

@TheLethalCarrot That's true, but not everyone uses chat and it is a bit fleeting. A meta post would leave all communication in plain view.

TheLethalCarrot

It's not a bad idea but I'm just thinking we're about to hit the weekend and most have likely already voted at this point. Not sure how much value it'll have for this election

SQB

Oh no, not for this one. But maybe it would be a good idea for a next one.

TheLethalCarrot

09:46

Still not matched last year's voter turnout which is a shame... with so many eligible voters you'd have thought there'd be more votes

Rand al'Thor

@b_jonas I for one am not going to quit the site over the results of this election.

SQB

And compared to the turnout at this point during last election?

Rand al'Thor

But I don't want to speak out against any candidates, because that could lead to bad blood in the mod team if someone I speak against wins.

TheLethalCarrot

@SQB To SEDE!

b_jonas

@Randal'Thor very good, then it's good taht you spoke out about that.

Rand al'Thor

09:59

I'd also feel like a hypocrite if I did so, given that in my own election I seemed to many people like a completely unsuitable candidate, but I've apparently proved myself to many of those people.

Maybe there's someone that I feel now wouldn't make a good mod, but would then prove himself just as I did.

b_jonas

@Randal'Thor If you're worried that it would be impolite, phrase it politely, saying that the two of you have a style conflict that you are afraid you can't get over, which may be your fault too, without saying that the candidate would be a worse mod than you.

TheLethalCarrot

@SQB Actually I don't think I've ever done anything like that in SQL, is it easy, or even possible, to do an "additive" query like that?

SQB

@TheLethalCarrot I've done it on Oracle. I'm pretty sure it should be doable on SQL Server.

TheLethalCarrot

I'll have a look into it but I think I'm lacking knowledge to do this one myself

b_jonas

In fantasy tropes, you can mark the candidate as your equal and neither can live while the other survives, surely that doesn't make it seem like the candidate is the bad guy; or else say you're sorry but an impulsuve ancestor of you has made a foolish oath and doomed your soul to never rest while that candidate holds a jewel, you know it's a pointless grudge but can't break free of it.

SQB

10:02

Ah, the best way seems to be a recursive CTE.

Sorry, scratch that. We need a windowing clause.

Rand al'Thor

Winnowing claws?

b_jonas

@Randal'Thor Right, so you don't have to exclude that the candidate might be a better mod than you. We'd still make an informed decision and we can choose a really good mod even if that meant that you couldn't continue to moderate.

TheLethalCarrot

@SQB I'll defer this one to you, way outside of my SQL knowledge haha

caird coinheringaahing

@b_jonas If you'd like to, you can "go back" to the old system and just rank the top three candidates you'd like to be a mod. That'd be essentially the same process as previous elections

b_jonas

@cairdcoinheringaahing No, if I think there are six good candidates and one bad candidate but I have no idea which of the six would be more popular, then I really should rank all six good candidates in an arbitrary order, it's just that the text on the election page is misleading about that.

Yes, on the surface that text says that I should rank all six, but just reading that without the history I would rank just four of the candidates, because it's better for the more likely case when the one bad candidate won't get elected anyway.

TheLethalCarrot

10:06

Well should still be in order of preference not done arbitrarily

b_jonas

I don't think we should go back to the system where you can only vote on three.

@TheLethalCarrot If I can figure out an order of preference then yes.

caird coinheringaahing

But also, as someone who isn't really invested in this election (I just like the drama that inevitably comes from SFF elections): I 100% agree that mods should be as impartial as they can during an election. Not only could they have to work with someone they bad mouthed, but a diamond carries weight and can influence other less informed users. Finally, as Rand said, users can change. There is a possibility, however unlikely you think it is, that if elected, user931 could be a good mod

b_jonas

The point is that I don't see big differences among those six candidates. I can still attempt to rank them, but I'm not confident in the ranking.

And I have tried to rank them after honestly trying to get informed, and I may still change my votes if I learn more.

SQB

@TheLethalCarrot data.stackexchange.com/scifi/query/1423416/…

b_jonas

@cairdcoinheringaahing Yes, but the problem is taht they don't have to work with someone they bad mouthed. Sci Fi had at least one mod who stepped down because they couldn't work together with a mod. So if there's a chance for that, then a current mod should honestly admit that.

Rand al'Thor

10:09

@b_jonas I don't think I have any personal conflicts with any of the candidates, not even Sachin.

TheLethalCarrot

@SQB Cool that was quick

b_jonas

If that won't happen in this case, then the three current mods can say that they won't step down for any of the seven.

TheLethalCarrot

In graph format:

data.stackexchange.com/scifi/query/1423995/…

b_jonas

@Randal'Thor It needn't be personal conflict, just a moderation style conflict.

But thank you for saying that.

caird coinheringaahing

@b_jonas Yes, but the existing mods shouldn't have to say "No I won't step down", they should (and likely would) say "I would step down" if they would

TheLethalCarrot

10:10

@b_jonas You can't ever truly know that in advance to be honest

caird coinheringaahing

The default should be "No, I won't step down" and I don't think it's fair to ask a mod if they would or not

SQB

Tom Petty And The Heartbreakers - I Won't Back Down (Official Music Video)

►

b_jonas

@AncientSwordRage @Null this applies to you as well. If you believe there's a candidate that you couldn't work together with, and you would step down to let them be a moderator if they were elected, it would be nice if you were clear about that in advance and we could vote knowing that. Some people might even vote for the candidate because they don't like you as moderators and this lets you step down. So it doesn't have to imply that the candidate is a worse moderator.

TheLethalCarrot

@cairdcoinheringaahing 100%

b_jonas

@TheLethalCarrot I seem to remember that the moderator stepped down immediately after the election. That's fine, they can do that, but they probably know that in advance.

Rand al'Thor

10:12

@b_jonas As mentioned before, if my (or current mods') opinion really means a lot to you, you can find at least a subset of the candidates we'd be fine with by going through our chat activity.

For example, ASR and I both encouraged SQB to run.

caird coinheringaahing

@b_jonas Same tbh - 4 of the 6 candidates I've ranked who I'd be happy to rank them in literally any order. To resolve that, I based it on my memory of interactions with that user on the network (which doesn't usually affect my ranking in elections, I try to vote on moderation history)

SQB

@TheLethalCarrot that's interesting. I thought my query would be flawed in that it doesn't show datapoints for hours in which no badges were awarded, but it looks like "it" recognises that it's a Date, and just plots accordingly.

b_jonas

@Randal'Thor Yes, I guess that does help.

TheLethalCarrot

@SQB there are a few gaps, I think there were votes most hours in the last election though

It was a shorter one with quite a bit of drama around it after all

SQB

Would it make a difference to you, @b_jonas, if there was a way to rank candidates ex aequo?

Rand al'Thor

10:14

@SQB Out of water?

caird coinheringaahing

@TheLethalCarrot SFF election with drama? No :P

b_jonas

@Randal'Thor I did try to go through the chat activity. I quoted some of it. And I didn't feel afterwards that the three of you made enough clear statement, except about Shakar.

TheLethalCarrot

@cairdcoinheringaahing TBF not really been any this time around, well, maybe a smidge

caird coinheringaahing

@TheLethalCarrot I can think of one user in particular who has (directly and indirectly) caused a decent amount of drama :P

TheLethalCarrot

A lot less than I thought would be caused from it though

Rand al'Thor

10:16

@cairdcoinheringaahing Sorry :-(

caird coinheringaahing

I don;t think I've ever seen a nomination include a blatant lie before

b_jonas

@SQB It would be nice if the mods could rank the candidates; but since they're not willing to do that, it would at least be nice if they were clear which candidates are such that the current diamond would step down to let the new moderator moderate well without them in the way if they were elected.

caird coinheringaahing

@Randal'Thor You should be ashamed :P Always talking about "programming languages" and "family friendly things" instead of the election :P

b_jonas

And I do generally suspect that it's the fault of the existing moderator who steps down, by default, though it's possible that I trust Rand enough to not think that in his case.

TheLethalCarrot

@cairdcoinheringaahing sorry about that, let me just go update my consecutive days ;P

b_jonas

10:18

Sorry, I shouldn't start with that.

@cairdcoinheringaahing thank you for helping us with this by the way.

caird coinheringaahing

I'm helping?

Rand al'Thor

@b_jonas I've ranked the candidates in my votes; I'm just not doing so publicly ;-) And it's very possible that ASR and Null have voted differently from me. We don't need to have a fixed mod team policy on candidate ranking.

b_jonas

Ok, so let me look at the three nodes you linked to about the voting system. politics.stackexchange.com/q/50149 is not quite asking the question I care about, but the answer politics.stackexchange.com/a/50159 does answer the question I care about.

And that answer says that I might be wrong about how the voting system works, though I don't yet know what the answer is in this particular case.

Rand al'Thor

Now over 2000 eligible voters visited the site during the election.

TheLethalCarrot

~25% voted so far is decent

AncientSwordRage

10:53

@TheLethalCarrot I wish it was higher :(

@b_jonas I'm not one to step down just because I don't get on with a fellow moderator

TheLethalCarrot

Aye, there are a lot seen in chatrooms though that just don't feel qualified to bote

b_jonas

@AncientSwordRage I don't. I have visited elections on sites that I barely know about, to dismiss the message and to get the free shiny badge. Do you wish that I had voted on those sites, without knowing anything about the site's issues and the candidates?

AncientSwordRage

Last time we had an issue with a moderator, they were the one who ended up giving up their diamond

b_jonas

@AncientSwordRage Thank you for being clear about that.

@AncientSwordRage Yes, I might assume that the problem would be with you if you stepped down for a conflict one of the candidates.

@AncientSwordRage Yes, I admit I'm not clear about the early history with Valorum and the few high profile users who left the site entirely.

And to be clear, I'm sad that Tsundoku got his SciFi account deleted, but I think it's his fault, not that you chased him away.

AncientSwordRage

I don't think I saw the sense in some of the past moderators leaving before the new mods were even given diamonds :(

@b_jonas sorry, who?

b_jonas

10:59

@AncientSwordRage Tsundoku, who has a diamond on Literature, but recently had his account on Sci Fi deleted beacuse he doesn't like where this site goes. Admittedly that's not really because of moderators,

he doesn't like how the answers about big franchises concentrate more on what JKR says on Pottermore and what Lucas says in interviews rather than what you can tell by reading the books and watching the films carefully.

AncientSwordRage

@b_jonas oh right!

b_jonas

He says that for questions that can be answered by word of the god and by reading the text carefully, Lit is better to get answers by reading the book carefully, and he prefers that. I hope I'm not misinterpreting him by this.

AncientSwordRage

I do know them, but only in passing, as I've only been on Lit in passing

b_jonas

I don't really understand why you want to get your account deleted just beacuse you don't endorse all the bad posts on a site. Not wanting to contribute on the site anymore because it isn't pleasant to spend time there, that I can understand.

But he did really get his account deleted, I checked.

(I checked because making empty threats about deleting your accounts is even worse than actually deleting it.)

And he does give a lot of good answers on Lit so I value that.

Great, politics.stackexchange.com/a/50152/38804 directly conflicts with politics.stackexchange.com/a/50159/38804 about how the voting system works.

sigh

This voting system thing is complicated and it will take time for me to understand among everyone saying possibly different things.

SQB

11:30

@TheLethalCarrot I'm always glad to put my SQL knowledge to use, since I'm currently stuck with MongoDB, which is (shudder) NoSQL.

TheLethalCarrot

I do like SQL, I just don't get enough chances to use it. And then when I do it's generally for basic queries

I think the most advanced stuff I've done has been for SEDE not for work

SQB

@b_jonas I think OpaVote allows to test it out a bit.

b_jonas

@TheLethalCarrot I like SQL in the weird way that I like python. SQL has a specific paradigm that can guide you for how to organize a database, and it follows that consistently. It's not a paradigm that I necessarily like, and don't use it for most of the task that I perform, but it is a useful tool in some cases, and this can depend on what tasks I work on. If I were to work on web development, I'd probably meet more cases where I want a relational database.

To be clear, I actually work with python, despite that I don't like some of the principles that they have, but they managed to make a consistently good tool with good libraries and a good quality windows port by following those principles consistently, so in the end it's worth to use.

Do you know just how rare it is to have a good native windows port? Good programmers hate to work on windows because its toolset support sucks. The Gimp developers openly admit that they can't really maintain the Windows port because none of them actually like to work with Windows and nobody who likes Windows volunteers to help them. It's a small wonder that the Windows port works so well despite that.

But for a library like python's, you need a lot of windows-specific stuff, and the python devs actually worked on that, and have a native windows port rather than a half-assed MSYS port that never gets updated and still tries to pretend it's on a unix system, like all the gcc ports.

TheLethalCarrot

"Good programmers hate to work on windows" Guess I'm not a good programmer then ;P

caird coinheringaahing

You should try some golfing languages :P

b_jonas

11:39

Um... sorry for distracting this election room by the way.

TheLethalCarrot

@cairdcoinheringaahing I did do some stuff in Carrot :P

b_jonas

@TheLethalCarrot Not all of them, obviously, just the majority. Python manages to find windows programmers somehow.

caird coinheringaahing

@TheLethalCarrot You've got a user:me there, which tells me I've never used Carrot :P

TheLethalCarrot

Lol, I'm a muppet

codegolf.stackexchange.com/search?q=user%3A38550+carrot

My personal favourite which I mentioned in TREU the other day

I did not even know why this code worked (the A^ part, partly because I had long forgotten about its implementation), but then I realised it was because of my terribly-written interpreter that lacks a proper parser. Here, have a +1 for confusing the creator of the language. — user41805 Jul 6 '17 at 3:04

AncientSwordRage

@TheLethalCarrot most of my answers there are js or python

TheLethalCarrot

11:46

Mine are pretty much all in C#

b_jonas

@AncientSwordRage Ok, though golfing isn't necessarily indicative on what tools I use for real work.

AncientSwordRage

@b_jonas obviously

caird coinheringaahing

@b_jonas I think that's true for most people

I've used Jelly (a golfing language that I use the most) like once for work

b_jonas

@cairdcoinheringaahing I used to golf perl and use perl for work at the same time. I mostly stopped by now.

TheLethalCarrot

I use C# for work and gotta say using it for golfing really helped me learn quite a bit about the language

AncientSwordRage

11:52

@b_jonas I thought most code written in perl looked golfed ? ducks

2

b_jonas

@AncientSwordRage That's fair, that's pretty much what most of what I wrote looked like. I think I now write slightly better code, not only because it's not in perl.

AncientSwordRage

I've seen good perl code and bad JS, so it can go both ways

b_jonas

@AncientSwordRage Well of course, everyone has seen bad JS.

AncientSwordRage

:D

I've definitely written bad code in every language I can code in when I should have known better

Skooba

I've never written bad code... (thatsbecauseiveneverwrittencodetobeginwith)

AncientSwordRage

11:58

@Skooba doesn't compile

Skooba

I used that XKCD compiling joke one time on a friend who actually was a programmer, I was surprised I got him.

Null

12:09

@b_jonas Why would I step down?

Are you trying to say that one of us should resign?

Mithical

I think he's referring to pulling a Keen based on the election results.

Null

Keen didn't just step down, he deleted his account.

Mithical

I'm aware; I'm referring to stepping down because of a serious concern with the election results that means you're unable to work with the new elected mod.

...much like Keen did after the 2016 election.

Null

Well, there's a big difference between deleting one's account due to concerns about PII and stepping down because you just can't work with a particular mod.

b_jonas

@Null No. I'm trying to know in advance if a mod would resign depending on the election results.

Even if they don't delete their account.

@Null He deleted his account, stopped being a mod, and didn't clearly say what the problem was so I can't be sure it was conflict with another moderator, yes.

That, plus I also don't understand the circumstances how we lost the first Literature mod, and I think there was one more high profile user on Sci Fi who deleted their account, but perhaps they weren't a diamond.

Heck, even if some high profile poster who isn't a diamond dislikes one of the candidates so much that they'd delete their accounts or stop contributing if the candidate were elected, that conflict would be useful to know about. I generally assume that the fault is with the person who deletes their account, but not always.

Null

12:21

@b_jonas I was just looking that up. It was Gilles, though I thought it was Keen who posted that.

b_jonas

@Null Ah! That must be it, yes, thank you

Null

@b_jonas Has someone said they would do this?

b_jonas

I don't remember all this old history.

Rand al'Thor

@b_jonas Gilles was an ex-mod here on SFF, who was very public about his distrust of me, and changed his username to "chased away by rand al'thor" before deleting his account after the 2016 election results.

b_jonas

@Null Not yet for this election, but if it happened in previous election, I think it's better to ask first, just in case.

Rand al'Thor

12:23

He didn't delete his Literature account when I was elected there, so apparently I won his trust to some extent.

b_jonas

I'd probably be happier if the mods clearly said that all these candidates are excellent and they know them personally and could work well with any of them, but I can't just assume that.

Napoleon Wilson

Gheez, dude, just vote or don't. If you're afraid of Sachin winning. Well, he won't. Case closed.

Rand al'Thor

@b_jonas Being excellent, and being so bad that we'd quit it they won, aren't the only two options.

2

b_jonas

@NapoleonWilson I'm not afraid of Sachin winning so much as I'm afraid of one of the other six winning and then I find out that the moderators don't like that particular one.

caird coinheringaahing

@Randal'Thor Remember me talking about a deleted user30 in TNB a few days ago?

b_jonas

12:25

Tell me I'm paranoid if you want, you'd be right, but Rand did mention that he could work together with five of the candidates. It probably just means that he doesn't know enough about the sixth one to judge, but perhaps he does and just too polite to speak against them.

caird coinheringaahing

@b_jonas Whether or not the mod team likes one another shouldn't affect your choice - if you trust them enough to elect them as a mod, you'll trust them enough to be civil and polite to each other, whether they like each other or not

b_jonas

@cairdcoinheringaahing Yes, like I said, if I think someone is a good enoguh mod, then I might vote for them even if one of the existing mods step down for it, and think it's best to move on. But it's better if I know about all these conflicts in advance.

AncientSwordRage

@b_jonas if it makes you feel better I can classify the candidates into: Excited to work with, Reluctant to work with (but will flag issues up before quitting), Won't work with at all.

None of those involve me leaving my post

b_jonas

@cairdcoinheringaahing The problem is that if there are enough conflicts within the mod team, then in the worst case we can get left with a non-functional mod team and the site gets closed.

AncientSwordRage

"NEITHER RAIN NOR SNOW NOR GLOM OF NIT CAN STAY THESE MODRATOR ABOT THEIR DUTY"

caird coinheringaahing

12:26

The site will never be closed that easily

Napoleon Wilson

@b_jonas Thhat's an extremely unlikely scenario. Noone will like or vote for every candidate, not even moderators.

b_jonas

@cairdcoinheringaahing They will be civil and polite. The mods who stepped down did so politely.

caird coinheringaahing

I'd dare say that SE would rather remove all moderators and hold a "clean slate" election before they'd shut the site down due to discourse in the mod team

Rand al'Thor

@cairdcoinheringaahing You weren't thinking of user204, were you? That's unrelated to the high-rep Richard/Valorum.

Napoleon Wilson

@b_jonas For some definition of politeness.

caird coinheringaahing

12:28

@Randal'Thor No, I was thinking of user56 - Gilles

b_jonas

@cairdcoinheringaahing Yes, that's just the worst case, but then are you trying to imply that the election is just meaningless and it doesn't matter who I vote for because we'll end up with a functioning mod team anyway?

Rand al'Thor

@cairdcoinheringaahing Ah OK. Again no relation to Richard/Valorum - two very different characters.

b_jonas

@AncientSwordRage That's good to know, thank you.

Null

@b_jonas I prefer some candidates to others, of course, but even if I had any reservation(s) about any of them I don't think it would be a good idea for me to say that publicly. That's basically bad-mouthing a user, which is bad enough as it is but especially so if that user is elected and I have to work with that user.

caird coinheringaahing

@Randal'Thor Yeah, I was thinking of a high-rep low-=d user who was a mod at some point, then left the site after resigning who I'd seen elsewhere on the network. Valorum was the only person I could think of that fit the bill, until Null linked to Gilles' resignation

Null

12:34

Besides, I had reservations about Rand at first when I saw users deleting accounts over his election, but he's proved to be an excellent moderator. Even if I have reservations now, I might change my mind later.

b_jonas

@Null Again, I don't expect you to say that anyone is a bad candidate, or a bad moderator, only that you can't work together with them, which might make you a bad moderator.

Especially if you have a conflict where a prophecy says that one of you will resign because you can't moderate together.

Null

@b_jonas Saying that I can't work with someone is tantamount to saying that I think that user would be a bad moderator.

caird coinheringaahing

@b_jonas I'm saying that a requirement for a candidate to get my vote in *any* SE mod election is that I can trust them to work with the existing mod team. Not necessarily be best buds who meet up for beers on weekends, but that there isn't any animosity that would negatively impact their mod work. The moderators have opinions about the candidates, they may even have opinions of some candidates that would cause the mod team to function poorly. But I wouldn't expect the mods to share those opinions publicly (they are welcome to do so, but I'd view that in bad taste), because if I wasn't sure…

b_jonas

@cairdcoinheringaahing Yes, and I'd like to find out which candidates are like that.

caird coinheringaahing

In short - other people's opinions shouldn't matter. You should vote based on how well you, and you alone, believe the mod team would function with each candidate on it

AncientSwordRage

12:38

@b_jonas I've been wrong about moderator candidates twice, so I'm going to go with my best judgement but see how things go

the best way to see if someone can work with moderators is see if they do

caird coinheringaahing

You may be wrong, but that happens to everyone. If it turns out that (e.g.) TLC turns into an awful mod for whatever reason, I'll happily hold my hands up and say "I did not expect that, I wouldn't vote for them again" There's no sure way of telling who will be a good mod until they become a mod

AncientSwordRage

@cairdcoinheringaahing exactly

TheLethalCarrot

I can sort this whole mess out. Vote for me and me alone

b_jonas

@AncientSwordRage You can be wrong, yes, and if you say you'd resign, I might still assume that you're wrong and the candidate would be a better moderator than you are.

caird coinheringaahing

As demonstrated by Gilles deleting their account here, but not on Lit, when Rand became a mod

@TheLethalCarrot Disagree - vote for me in a write-in campaign :P

TheLethalCarrot

12:40

Alternatively refresh the election page and then vote for the candidates in the random order they show up in

AncientSwordRage

@TheLethalCarrot D:

TheLethalCarrot

Decent way of getting a random order, not that I'd actually recommend doing that haha

b_jonas

And if you do think you can work with a candidate, and you would try, but we only later find out that you can't, that's fine too.

Mithical

@b_jonas Are you referring to Hamlet or Aza?

b_jonas

@TheLethalCarrot I just make random orders on my local computer instead. I haven't done that for this election, but I have done it for example pictures for suggested photo challenges on Wikimedia Commons. Just to be clear that I don't shy away from generating a random order if I feel like I don't have a good way to rank.

@Mithical The mod who was instrumental to start the second Lit site. I think that's Hamlet.

Mithical

12:43

Hamlet proposed it on A51, so probably.

In any case, they stepped down / deleted their SE account because they decided that they didn't like the way SE worked as a platform anymore, plus the direction Lit.SE was taking as a site.

b_jonas

13:23

My question on meta has 9 downvotes and 6 upvotes. Great! I like posting controversial stuff, that shows I'm doing something right.

Even if the question will end up vacuumed.

DavidW

@TheLethalCarrot I was just skimming a story last night, so I'm embarrassed I can't come up with the name, where a primary criterion for holding elected office was not wanting it.

Mithical

> "Anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job." - Douglas Adams, The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy

2

TheLethalCarrot

@DavidW I feel like I've seen a few id questions with that in them

DavidW

I was flipping through a bunch of '80s Asimov's looking for a story I'd forgotten; that's the context it came up in.

SQB

13:39

@DavidW isn't that "Franchise"?

DavidW

?

b_jonas

@TheLethalCarrot there's probably a whole category of stories about that aphorism, but I don't want to look on tvtropes right now

@SQB Franchise is a common id question, but it's not about that topic

SQB

@b_jonas you're quite right.

@b_jonas should you or anyone else want to, it's called "Reluctant Ruler".

Transcript for

2021 Science Fiction & Fantasy Stack …