Arqade 2016 Election Discussion

Dragonrage

00:38

my answer is up. feel free to ask me questions about any/all of my answers, or anything else you would like for me to address

Jim Jones

01:29

Who're you choosing?

Robotnik

01:51

My answer is also up, and also feel free to request clarification where necessary :)

user15026

@Robotnik I forget you're in a completely different timezone than most of us. That could be very useful :)

Robotnik

@AshleyNunn indeed :)

Unionhawk

03:41

My answer is up now

Robotnik

04:01

Cool. who's left?

just checked: Fluttershy & John

Galabyca

Someone's there?

Robotnik

I'm here, what's up?

Galabyca

I would be curious to know that are you thinking about this situation.. :/

@Galabyca That's not what that meta post says. You can interpret it that way if you want, but I'm telling you right now, that's wrong. Either way, though, I'm just trying to point you in the right direction. I'll be reverting those edits as I see them. — Frank 8 mins ago

Sorry, this one :

1

Q: Health and ammo not displaying in Battlefield 4

I used to play Battlefield 4 on the PS3 and just recently moved to PC. Health and Ammo HUD section is not being displayed. I also seem to have the same problem with the orange spotting triangle above an enemy's head. Does someone know how to display Health and Ammo HUD section? Is there an op...

battlefield-4

In comments

If I'm wrong, then I'll stop this practice. I just have the badfeeling that I can't follow Frank instructions because he's always pessimist/negative... :/

Robotnik

04:18

He can seem that way because he tends to write in short sentences and absolutes.
In terms of the situation though: use bold or italics to highlight key points, but don't bold a whole sentence. Yes, it got approved by two other users, but in general it really isn't needed

Unionhawk

Yeah, your edit as a whole is fine, he's just getting caught up in the bold detail

Which is not great

But

It's not technically necessary to embolden the "actual question", but it's also not actively harmful.

Galabyca

Embolding is for me the "earth" of the question. This is the "track" to a good answer. However, I see this causes trouble and I think I'll stop this in my futur edits.

Thank to both of you for your opinion :)

I just want to notifiy that the only person here, on Arqade, that see problem with embolding is Franck. This is sad...

Unionhawk

I mean, the meta opinion has some votes iirc

Galabyca

Yes. And it can be interpreted in both ways : an edit for only embolding is not right (and I respect that), but embolding question is not not harmful and can be nice for eyes and reading comprehension.

Robotnik

@Galabyca Frank takes site quality fairly seriously, and in this case he is right that the site precedent is to not over-emphasise/embolden points. I wouldn't worry too much about it though.

Just be careful about this in future :)

Galabyca

04:26

Yeah I will.

I learned that on Stack Overflow, but it seems to be a bad practice here...

Have a good night! :)

Robotnik

It's middle of the day here :P
but you too :)

Galabyca

Eheh.. I'm from Canada (Montréal). It's 00h31.

Robotnik

@Galabyca Sydney, Australia

2:30PM

Galabyca

This is the good thing on Internet. We sleep in shift, so we can assure a quality on Arqade 24/7 ^^

Conclusion of the story (in a private message to him) :

after a discussion with other moderators, I must admit you're right of this one. I'm sorry for the waste of time. I'll be careful about that if future. I hope we can work together to make this site better, as if it never happened.

GodEmperorDune

05:47

@Robotnik your answers to the questionnaire are outstanding IMO. I will be very surprised if you aren't a mod in a week or so

Mathias711

06:49

Maybe a stupid question, but are my votes still valid if I just choose 2 options?

GodEmperorDune

07:02

@Mathias711 yes

Mathias711

Cool, thanks

GodEmperorDune

the way the algorithm works, once your vote can no longer help your top two candidates (because they've won or are in last place and dropped out), it will go into the exhausted pile

you can see this play out in the 2014 results

Robotnik

07:30

Thanks! :)
Still, if there's anything anyone wants clarification on I'm happy to expand on that point if needed :)

Peter David Carter-Poulsen

08:05

0

Q: Should questions about Stack Exchange elections be allowed?

I understand this seems to be outside of the scope of this site but in many ways it's absolutely part of the intended scope. There is currently a moderator election at Arquade, for example, and this is a very important part of the government and administration of the site which affects many users...

discussion

Wipqozn

11:11

@Mathias711 which reminds me, @GraceNote, is there anyway to remove a vote once you've cast it? Looks like once you cast a vote there's no way to removeit, just transfer it to a different person (aka once I cast third vote there's no way for me to cancel one and only have two votes)

Peter David Carter-Poulsen

@Wipqozn Yeah, I feel like people should be able to change their votes up until the deadline for final voting. If not during the various parts of the round system.

Wipqozn

@PeterDavidCarter-Poulsen they can change their votes, but they can't undo a vote from what I see

once you lock in a third vote, you can only transfer it to a different nominee, you can't get rid of it altogether

I'm currently stuck trying to decide my third person. I'll probably wait until all the answers are posted.

Peter David Carter-Poulsen

@Wipqozn wouldn't removing the vote be a waste of that vote? I mean, three people are going to be elected anyway, aren't they?

Kevin van der Velden

@Wipqozn I thought it would be simple for you 1) @Wipqozn, 2) Wipqozn, 3) The turtle

Wipqozn

@GodEmperorDune yeah i just assumed @Robotnik was going to be one of the mods when this whole thinf started

Right from the start I've been thinking "okay, whose going to be the second mod elected..." because I fully expect @Robotnik to be elected with the most votesd

Mathias711

11:38

You are able to remove a vote - I did it myself.
If you voted A, B and C as 1st, 2nd and 3rd. Vote on Person D as 3rd, 2nd and 1st. This will remove A, B, C from the vote list. Then vote A as 1st again, B as 2nd, and leave 3rd empty. Just retried, and works

Not completely the way it should work, but it works :)

Peter David Carter-Poulsen

I wonder if it might be useful to think about how the candidates might compliment each other when choosing the three to vote for. Maybe pick three who seem to balance in the right ways.

Wipqozn

@Mathias711 ah cool, rad. and yeah, it's not something you need a a user friendly thing for,r eally, since I think trying to remove a vote all together isn't common

I just can't decide who i want my third vote to be right now.

Robotnik

Thanks for the vote of confidence :)
I honestly dont know who I thought it'd be, but I am a bit taken aback (and greatful!) at all the votes of confidence. I went into this thinking "Oh yeah, there's some stiff competition here." But I've barely had any questions thrown at me (other than chat participation which I answered before anyone asked). @PeterDavidCarter-Poulsen I honestly think we all compliment each other really well, we all have similar mindsets even if I don't win I'd be happy with any of the nominees becoming mod.

Peter David Carter-Poulsen

11:53

@Robotnik I was just looking and one candidate said they do a lot of passive observing and another looked really active in a more obvious way. I like the idea of a balance between thinking people and doing people, if that makes sense

Wipqozn

@Robotnik You're welcome! and I also agree. I honestly don't think anyone in the election would make a bad mod.

There are some who I think would make better mods than others, but none of them make me go "Well that person should -not- be a mod"

Robotnik

@PeterDavidCarter-Poulsen Of course. I was mainly thinking in terms of like-mindedness, we're all on the same wavelength :).

@Wipqozn Agreed

Grace Note

13:33

@Wipqozn If you move one of your other votes into a different slot, the original slot becomes empty. You can't go to 0 votes, but you can basically down yourself to a single vote by just putting your top choice into 3rd, then 2nd, then 1st.

Oh, you already got that answer

Wipqozn

13:52

@GraceNote I did, but thanks anyways.

#electionhacks

cc @Sterno

Sterno

14:03

Yeah, how little I care about getting involved in this election is a testament to the quality of the current candidates

Last election I was all up in it!

Wipqozn

@Sterno :(

Sterno

@Wipqozn Uh, maybe that came out wrong. I like all the current candidates.

Last election there were quite a few people I had questions for because I was wary of them

Wipqozn

@Sterno yeah it did haha

or I read it wrong

Sterno

Either way, clarified!

Wipqozn

I'm willing to take the blame if it makes me look better for modship

Peter David Carter-Poulsen

14:28

is it wrong to be wary of candidates who seem to be too good at politics?

Wipqozn

@PeterDavidCarter-Poulsen You can be wary of a candidate for any reason you want, really.

Peter David Carter-Poulsen

I consider the possible subterfuge capability of a very politically savvy candidate; though I can also see how an eye and ear for the right words to say, and the Arquade public mood could be useful, too; the former being of course my trust issues with politicians in general, rather than anything specific

MadMAxJr

14:51

I still want to see SMB 1-1 performance from the candidates. Something that visually tells me you get the basics of gaming.

GodEmperorDune

@PeterDavidCarter-Poulsen one of the differences with SE in general is that a lot of material is logged and publicly visible. For example if you thought @Wipqozn was being disingenuous, you can go look at every question or answer he's posted on meta or the main site (right from his user page), look up everything he's said in chat (and search it in transcript), look up his review history, comments...

Basically see everything but how he's voted up or down on individual questions. IMO it's much harder to fake out all of that data

Wipqozn

@GodEmperorDune Yup. It's pretty cool.

Stack Exchange is about as transparent is it can be

Peter David Carter-Poulsen

@GodEmperorDune I was thinking of an incident on another site on the network, where a user was banned for comments which were designated as 'disruptive'. Since the comments were deleted, it was not possible for people to see them after the ban and memory is a tricky thing, and sometimes you begin to doubt your own mind when such labels are used. Nothing to do with anyone here as far as I know, just left me with a lingering sense of suspicion.

GodEmperorDune

@PeterDavidCarter-Poulsen mods and maybe 10k users can see deleted comments. If they saw something problematic, they would bring it up in nomination comments or in this election chatroom

Peter David Carter-Poulsen

@GodEmperorDune See, that's the sort of thing I have no visibility on, so I'm forced to go on guesswork and instinct, having been given no other available data. As must most of the community.

user15026

15:06

Trust me if us mods saw anything strange or not awesome about any candidate and their past history we would have mentioned it by now.

Peter David Carter-Poulsen

From my experience on Arquade so far, I'm pretty certain the mods here would, yes.

GodEmperorDune

We actually had a fair bit of activity at the start of the election on a specific individual regarding some problematic things they did a few months ago. It was raised, tough questions were asked, and that person withdrew their nomination.

StrixVaria

@GodEmperorDune Only mods can see deleted comments.

2

10kers can see deleted questions/answers.

GodEmperorDune

@StrixVaria thanks for clarifying

@PeterDavidCarter-Poulsen also if mods were not mentioning something to do with deleted comments(or other hidden info) an SE staff member like @shog9 would step up to say it. The SFF election a little while ago had a situation like that, where SE staff were verifying the reasoning behind bans that some candidates got.

Peter David Carter-Poulsen

@GodEmperorDune I believe it was more an issue of characterisation of the removed comments. I don't recall anything disruptive about them, and to my recollection they just seemed to be trying to clarify points about the question, but it would be impossible to check this now, since members of the community in general have no access to historical archive.

GodEmperorDune

15:14

@PeterDavidCarter-Poulsen ah, i see

Grace Note

It's not really impossible

I mean, I'm here after all.

(This is when my theme song would play)

4

Kevin van der Velden

@PeterDavidCarter-Poulsen there's no u in Arqade (Q&A) =p

Peter David Carter-Poulsen

=P

Kevin van der Velden

@GraceNote what would your theme song be?

Wait let's not in here

Peter David Carter-Poulsen

I'm thinking something like Death Note, but with less death

Yuuki

15:22

Soo... OneNote?

Wipqozn

15:49

@GodEmperorDune Happened during the last election too...and very election since I've been here.

Wehn there's a candidate folks hve problems with, the community lets them know.

user4704

Heh.

Kevin van der Velden

^^

user4704

So, many of you the candidates have discussed "dealing with problem users" as being a thing you could do differently as a moderator you couldn't do as a 10k/20k.

Wipqozn

@JoshPetrie Yes

user4704

Sometimes doing so, particularly in more public venues (e.g., suspending a user from chat) involves that user lashing back out at you in a fashion that might hurt your feelings or otherwise make you uneasy.

user4704

15:55

I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on handling that kind of situation, or if you have prior experience doing so.

user4704

cc @Wipqozn @Dragonrage @Fluttershy @Robotnik @John ^ above ^

user4704

(I can't ping John unfortunately)

Wipqozn

@JoshPetrie To be honest the first time that happened I'd probably start by asking the other mods how they dealt with it, since I'm sure they all have experience with it. My first non-experienced opionin Depending on exactly how the lashed out I'd either ignore it, or I'd ask another mod to step in and moderate them as appropriate.

and now I have a meeting

like if they were sending me death threats I'd take that seriously, and ask another mod to get involved and hand out suspensions.

GodEmperorDune

@Wipqozn sic semper tyrannis

Wipqozn

I can provide more details or answer more questions uh, maybe not today but tomorrow

user4704

16:00

Sure, no rush.

user4704

Oh damn I could ping @John.

user4704

Sorry!

user4704

Didn't realize his chat username differed.

Fluttershy

@JoshPetrie Honestly, it would really depend on the level of lashing out. I like to think I have fairly thick skin, and can generally keep a level head, but I also wouldn't let it distract me from other duties. The moderation team is just that; a team. So I would likely defer to a more experienced moderator for their opinion if things reached a tipping point, or I felt I could no longer deal with the backlash.

Peter David Carter-Poulsen

@Fluttershy Deal with a community backlash, or an individual user?

@Wipqozn why would someone send an Arquade mod death threats!???

user4704

16:12

You'd be surprised.

Kevin van der Velden

@PeterDavidCarter-Poulsen because there are very weird people

Peter David Carter-Poulsen

I suppose there was Gamergate... (considers a lol, but then thinks better of it due to the potential seriousness of the topic)

but my understanding was that mainly concerned some very serious feminist related issues which were highly controversial. What sort of things provoke that sort of reaction on a site that's just for games Q&As?

has anyone had any experiences they'd be ok talking about?

Fluttershy

@PeterDavidCarter-Poulsen My response was for the user, specifically, but the same would hold true in the case of community backlash, I believe.

Peter David Carter-Poulsen

@Fluttershy I'm inclined to trust the current moderation team on Arqade because in my experience they've got things absolutely right so far. Have there been any community backlashes here?

Dragonrage

@PeterDavidCarter-Poulsen *Arqade

Peter David Carter-Poulsen

16:20

@Dragonrage Fixed. I pronounce it that way in my head. Is that the right way?

(moving off-topic a bit here -- sorry, I just want to know for future reference)

Dragonrage

@PeterDavidCarter-Poulsen i pronounce it the same way i would pronounce arcade

Peter David Carter-Poulsen

@Dragonrage Is that the canonical pronunciation? Like, are there different ways I should say it?

Dragonrage

@PeterDavidCarter-Poulsen afaik arcade is canonical pronunciation.

Fluttershy

@PeterDavidCarter-Poulsen If there have been, they've been kept fairly quiet. It's been a while since I've seen any significant lashing out from some community members against the moderation team.

Peter David Carter-Poulsen

@Fluttershy Community policing at it's finest.

Do you feel there are any other issues? Might there be ways to increase community engagement, keep things dynamic and interesting?

Fluttershy

16:27

@PeterDavidCarter-Poulsen Honestly, I've always felt like we've had a pretty fantastic community. One of the best communities I've ever been involved in. We have plenty of open minded people who aren't afraid to speak up if they disagree with decisions, community moderation that works, and a good team of moderators to take care of any issues that reputation privileges don't give access to.

Peter David Carter-Poulsen

@Fluttershy I was just sort of trying to push for any issues that might differentiate candidates for me. Are there any points where you respectfully disagree. Obviously it's important you're a team, but slight differences in policy, perhaps? Things anyone proposes doing which might change the site in ways others wouldn't?

Dragonrage

16:39

@JoshPetrie I've had to deal with this quite a bit, and I've learned that you cannot take it personally. The moment you respond in anything but a professional and courteous manner, you become to the problem. If I feel myself getting riled up at all, I stop and disengage for a moment to collect my thoughts and refocus. In my 3 years of experience moderating my halo clans websites, i have often had to ban, warn, or otherwise moderate people for actions not in keeping with the established clan rules

Peter David Carter-Poulsen

@Dragonrage can you think of an example of a situation you dealt with particularly well, where you demonstrated a skill which would be useful in the position of moderator?

Fluttershy

Heading to a doctor's appointment, but I'll answer more questions when I'm back at my PC!

Dragonrage

most often the reason people get upset at me is because i move their posts that are off topic or inflammatory to our trash bin, which is a hidden forum accessable to moderators. this acts as a soft delete, in that we can still access and undelete them if needed, but removes offending content. When people complain about it, I then will specifically address which part of the rules they were breaking in the post by specifically referencing it.

user4704

Why do you feel it's necessary to just quietly delete them, and explain if asked, versus providing an explanation while/before deleting?

Dragonrage

@PeterDavidCarter-Poulsen i posted one example on my nomination of such example. I can quote other examples of times i have if needed.

Peter David Carter-Poulsen

16:44

Let me consult my notes...

On gaming.stackexchange.com/election/5?tab=nomination ?

Dragonrage

@JoshPetrie it is a somewhat established precedent in our clan to delete offending posts, and i generally tend to leave a post in place to warn people to stay on topic. if this written warning is not heeded, i will then issue a board warning the next time i have to soft delete the posts from a member. this sends them a private message in which i generally refer to the post in a general sense and ask them politely to stop.

user4704

k

Dragonrage

if this is not followed, i will then either put them on moderator queue or give them a temp ban

@PeterDavidCarter-Poulsen yes, in the comments.

Peter David Carter-Poulsen

"Here is an example of a board warning I issued to one of our users who was not following our rules. "I've noticed a number of your posts are things like "oh lol ..." or deviate from the topic. Doing this can annoy the person who made that topic and goes against our forum rules, so if you could be careful about not doing this in the future. See rule 1 here.""

I like that you warned the user first, and were specific about what the warning was for. I feel that's an important thing to do.

Dragonrage

one thing i think may be of note from my other experience, is that I have worked to establish a new precedent of soft deleting posts instead of hard deleting posts, because a hard delete gave us no way to restore things we did in error, nor could we cite specifics from the posts in question while dealing with the offending member

Peter David Carter-Poulsen

16:53

I'm thinking about supporting you with my vote now, but one thing I'm concerned, in a minor way, about, is words like 'annoy' and phrases like 'goes against our forum rules' might be seen as inflammatory, but that seems to depend on the user. Was your intervention successful and did you feel the user understood and acted more to the benefit of the site afterwards (if they were still around)?

Dragonrage

@PeterDavidCarter-Poulsen In that specific case cited, yes the user promised to be more careful in the future, though I did have to give him a few reminders when his posts started drifting back to being just random comments, but have not had to issue any more warnings to him

Peter David Carter-Poulsen

@Dragonrage that sounds good. To me the test of truly great moderation is when the user ends the conversation understanding the moderator's position and alters their behaviour according to their new understanding.

Dragonrage

@PeterDavidCarter-Poulsen i would say it is just as important for a moderator to recognize when they did something wrong, and to admit it, apologize, and take steps to rectify the situation.

Peter David Carter-Poulsen

I totally agree. Though often a moderator has to be subtle about things so as to be shown to still be someone worth listening to? Do you think it's important to apologise for very minor errors of judgment, for example?

Dragonrage

17:11

@PeterDavidCarter-Poulsen could you provide an example? I feel that if you do something wrong, admitting it and working to make sure you don't do it again is the proper thing to do. If it is a simple misunderstanding, I don't see anything wrong with saying "Sorry, I didn't understand what you meant by x" or something is perfectly appropriate. Acting like you didn't do something wrong when you did won't help you, and apologizing for something you did wrong can only help the situation.

Peter David Carter-Poulsen

@Dragonrage I see your point: asking for clarification isn't really an apology. It would probably be more if someone did something which harmed the site and realised it afterwards that it might be important. If apologising would fix something. Definitely helpful.

Could you give an example of when a mod might apologise for doing something wrong?

Dragonrage

@PeterDavidCarter-Poulsen I've seen mods call out the wrong person in chat for doing something they felt was improper. A simple apology could easily provide a remedy for the situation. It could also be if a question was mod closed when it shouldnt have been because of a misinterpretation of the question.

Peter David Carter-Poulsen

Ah, that does make sense, I think. Gotta rush now as I have a meetup to go to but it's been really useful, thank you.

Dragonrage

@PeterDavidCarter-Poulsen Your welcome, always happy to clarify or expand on any other questions you come up with.

Peter David Carter-Poulsen

17:26

Hopefully eventually I'll work out who to vote for!

:)

Wipqozn

17:42

@JoshPetrie so yeha, basically what I said. I'd look for the opinions of more experienced members before taking any action, but my first thought is I'd either just ignore it or get another moderator to handle it, depending on how severe it is. Getting another moderator to step in would mostly be because I might be too close to the situation to be able to moderate with "no bias".

GodEmperorDune

@Wipqozn are you ever able to moderate with "no bias"? You're human, you will always have some bias

Yuuki

Well, if he's not into K-pop, I think he can moderate with no bias.

Wipqozn

@GodEmperorDune As much "no bias" as is reasonable

but if it's a case of someone telling me to "fuck off you asshole mod", I'll likely have much stronger bias than normal.

Yuuki

Apparently, "bias" is a term K-pop fans use to name K-pop bands or stars that they like.

According to my sister.

GodEmperorDune

17:57

@Yuuki wat

Unionhawk

@GodEmperorDune It's about recognizing biases and understanding where they might impact judgment

Yuuki

@GodEmperorDune "My bias is <insert K-pop thingie here>."

@GodEmperorDune Yes, that was my reaction.

GodEmperorDune

@Yuuki my bias is people using the word bias properly

Wipqozn

@Unionhawk yeah, and knowing when you're in a situation when you may not be able to properly set aside your bias.

Unionhawk

And also avoiding situations where people can call your biases into question

Like, if I banned @UniKitty, that would be a situation where someone could very reasonably go "hold on, are you just banning this guy because he was really annoying to you last year?"

Even if that isn't the reason

John

18:00

@JoshPetrie This is something I talked about in an answer to the candidate questions. Basically, I tend to get along well with people in general, so I don't expect an extreme amount of criticism. That said I think almost all leadership positions generate baseless criticism at some point or another. If I received a large amount of complaints I would get other mods to review the complaints and/or my actions.

GodEmperorDune

@Unionhawk so you'd sneakily have another mod do it for cover? instead of saying "i banned him and we don't discuss ban circumstances in public"?

Wipqozn

@John I couldbe wrong, and @JoshPetrie can clarify, but I think he was mostly referring to the folks who fling shit at you for no reason, and basically just act like an ass to you.

Unionhawk

@GodEmperorDune No, I'd remove myself from that decision altogether.

Wipqozn

like when we close a persons question and they start flipping out in the comments calling us all power hungry douchebags, and start jumping into chat to swear at people.

@Unionhawk yeah, that's what I thought you meant as well.

as in that you'd remove yourself, not you'd vbe sneaky

aka @GodEmperorDune is clearly just trying to twist things around and turn us against each other

He's basically Lex Luthor

Unionhawk

Well @GodEmperorDune lost my vote

Wipqozn

18:02

@Unionhawk Yup, lost mine too.

John

@Wipqozn Oh well in that case.. this is the internet. We've all had people mad at us for no reason. I don't expect it to affect any of us in any meaningful way. (cc @JoshPetrie)

Unionhawk

YOU HEAR THAT, I'M VOTING FOR THE TURTLE NOT YOU

Or maybe someone else

Who knows

Well, probably me

GodEmperorDune

@Unionhawk don't get me wrong (and this goes for @wipqozn too), but i think it is naive to think that as mods you will be able to remove yourselves so easily. That diamond is always there. people will fling imaginary and real shit at you.

Yuuki

sqrt(-shit)

GodEmperorDune

@Wipqozn no i think both you and @uni have said a lot of things i agree with, but this point keeps coming up and IMO both of you are failing at it

John

18:04

@JoshPetrie My chat name came first, and is what I go by on the rest of the network. I added more for Arqade when people stopped being able to tell who I was. I may have to change that a bit if elected.

Wipqozn

@GodEmperorDune Could you elaborate on how?

Unionhawk

@GodEmperorDune The diamond is always there, and yeah people could claim all kinds of nonsense, but like, there's a difference between claims of mod abuse, and actual, real mod abuse

It's a very important one

GodEmperorDune

@Wipqozn like i understand wanting to confer with other mods and double check yourselves when dealing with a new situation. that's great. But if some personal conflict comes up between you and a user, i don't see how running away solves it.

@Unionhawk i don't think that you or @Wipqozn would do real mod abuse

Wipqozn

@GodEmperorDune We're not really talking about a conflict between us and another user, I don't think.

Unionhawk

Well take my @Unikitty example for example then. If I did ban him, that could be perceived as real mod abuse.

But if I didn't even look at the trigger in that situation, then it clearly is not

GodEmperorDune

18:07

@Unionhawk is it real mod abuse when @badp bans @GnomeSlice for calling him a clown?

Unionhawk

@Wipqozn Honestly I'm not quite sure what we're talking about

Wipqozn

@Unionhawk to be honest I think I'm confused as well

here's what I thought we were talking about [SEE NEXT MESSAGE]

John

There will always be non-mods who don't know what the circumstances were behind seemingly questionable mod actions.

You will have to make unpopular choices and live with the hate at times

I mean, look at @badp

Oh hi @badp

Wipqozn

I was under the impression the question is that I just did my regular mod thing (say, I deleted a users post which was him telling people to fuck off). The user complains, and starts harassing me. In that situation, I can try to hash it with them, but there's going to be situations where "hasing it out" isn't goign to do anything, and punishments nad suspensions may need to be handed out. In thst situation, it makes more sense for another mod to step in and do that

Having the mod who is the target of harassment to be the one start handing out suspensions isn't a good idea imo.

Unionhawk

Yes, basically

Wipqozn

18:10

Yeah, at the start I'd try to hash it out with them and explain "this is why I did what I did"

John

@Wipqozn On the other hand, you're the mod who was actually there

Wipqozn

@John I was, but mods can access the entire history of the conversation.

John

Handing off a situation 100% to another unrelated mod isn't often good I think

badp

I want to have a say but I don't really want to affect how people vote

Unionhawk

I guess it all kind of depends on the situation

John

18:11

@badp I appreciate your support.

Wipqozn

@badp Maybe just explain how you would go about such a situation, without commenting on how you well you think uni / john / me would handle it?

badp

well I would but then I'd just end up agreeing or disagreeing

even if I don't know who I'd dis/agree with

Wipqozn

@Unionhawk yeah, it does. Which is why I think there may be some confusion.

GodEmperorDune

@Unionhawk of course. and again i am not trying to imply that any of the mod candidates will go on a rampage and ban anyone who disagrees with them. But i think that if there are real bannable things going on then as a mod you should be comfortable enough to stand up and ban them

Wipqozn

Like if we're talking about folks just getting upset with what I did and or asking me to explain that's one thing, and I'd deal with by explaining to them why I did so and make sure they understand the why. I may get another involved in this point as a "hey, can you doible check what I did to see if i did anything wrong?"

The question I thought @JoshPetrie was asking though, and the situation I imagined, was someone just harassing me. aka sending me death threats, popping into chat and constantly tellign me "go fuck yourself fuck you". That's the kind of situation where I'd feel it would be right for another mod to to take action with that user instead of myself.

John

18:14

@Wipqozn That's the part where I would link them to the "be nice" section of the help center

user4704

When I asked the question I was specifically thinking of cases where, for example, I told a user to stop doing something / be more civil / sorry that's off-topic. And that user responded and insulted me or ragequit or something.

John

if death threats continue, suspension time

user4704

But obviously the other discussions you've branched out into are good and interesting.

John

@JoshPetrie 24 hour suspensions to "cool off" seem to be an accepted thing

badp

We are going to have 8 mods so there's no reason to not hold back. But if you feel you can defend your position and get the support from everyone else, there's no reason to hold back either. And even if you fuck up, that's ultimately okay.

Wipqozn

18:17

And it's not a case of me running away (and I think that isnt' the case for @Unionhawk either), but that if I'm too involved in a situation, or if I'm a victim, then I don't think it's right for me to be the one to start dishing out punishments.

badp

What about simply flagging the message as offensive?

Wipqozn

@badp Doesn't a moderator flagging something as offensive result in it being deleted right away, and suspenion handed out..?

badp

Yes

Wipqozn

Maybe I'm confusing chat and comments

badp

Yes it does.

Unionhawk

18:19

Yeah, it's about recognizing bias and knowing when it is appropriate to defer action potentially, depending on the situation

badp

You get a confirmation prompt, but otherwise it's 30 minutes and a message deleted.

Unionhawk

I think he's saying you're taking action against a particular message rather than against a user per se

And a side effect of that is 30 minutes

badp

I dunno, if someone does go for actual real death threats, how long do you think the ban should be at a minimum? 0 seconds, 1 minute (kick), 30 minutes (flag), 1 hour (manual ban), more..?

does that translate to a site ban, even?

Wipqozn

@badp actual death threats? I'd go for a 24 hour at a minimum.

Unionhawk

That's true, death threats are a particular beast

user4704

18:20

I didn't really intend to involve death threats in the conversation :P Personally, if it came to that, I'd avoid engaging at all and pitch it to CMs.

Unionhawk

Yeah

Wipqozn

@JoshPetrie yeah, I was thinking ont hat one as well

Unionhawk

Maybe like a 24 and CM

Dragonrage

@JoshPetrie yea, that sounds most reasonable.

user4704

In fact, anything related to targetting a user outside the network I would walk away from.

badp

18:21

I'd go for giving the guy 30 minutes, then working it out with other mods during those 30 mintues

Unionhawk

That also seems reasonable

Since it disarms the current situation and also allows discussion

Or at least delays the current situation

user4704

Ban, escalate to community, don't get further involved. That's very serious business which I am not trained for.

badp

sorry for spoiling it but I think that was pretty much the correct solution. YOU ARE ALL WRONG!

user4704

heh

Unionhawk

@badp We knew that already

Wipqozn

18:22

@badp yeah, that does make the most sense

and well honestly that's why I started by saying "I'd ask the other mods"

badp

John

I mean we all said "take some small action and talk to other mods" we just differed on how much action.

Wipqozn

Dealing with situations you're not involved in is easy. IT's when you're a target or something that it gets tricky, and that's not something I have experience with, since up until my solution is just "flag and move on".

Unionhawk

I think a lot of this comes down to figuring out how to respond to particular situations

Wipqozn

and, well I fully plan to draw on the experience and knowledge of other moderators if I get elected, because I'd be a fool not to.

Unionhawk

18:25

None of us are current or former mods (anymore), so us all being unsure how to handle that kind of extremely messy situation is not unexpected

Whoever is elected will be learning what the hell they are doing

Wipqozn

I'm not going to claim if elected that I'll do perfectly out of the gate, because I'm sure I won't. All mods make mistakes when they start out (heck, they make mistakes even after moderating for a few years). However when possible I want to draw on the experience of other mods so I can avoid making those "beginner mistakes" when possible.

badp

I still keep making mistakes, I just can't have enough of them

John

Teach me to mod, @badp

user4704

They're good on toast.

Unionhawk

Drawing upon the experience we all have handling normal situations on the site, and the advice of the moderation team and in extreme cases the CMs in exceptional situations that normal users are not equipped to deal with

badp

18:26

@John you have a button. there is a reason you have a button. the reason is that sometimes you gotta press it. and then you press it. if you don't press it, why do you have it.

John

@Unionhawk I wonder how often our mods bring cases to CMs just to get to talk to @GraceNote again

Wipqozn

What I can say is that when I'm the one that's being a target of harassment, or someone is questioning my actions, that even if I'm 100% confident in what I did I'd still want to hit up the other mods and go "hey, do you think I did anything wrong here? Or could have handled this better?"

John

@badp scribbles notes

Dragonrage

@badp maybe because it looks pretty?

Wipqozn

and I'd do that even if I responded with some kind of action - like deleting, giving them a warning, bans, et cetera

And, honestly, this conversation has already changed my mind bit on the whole thing. I like @badp's solution, pop them a 30 minute suspension and then hit up with mods to discuss what further action (if any) should be taken.

badp

18:28

@Wipqozn I mean, during the discord thing I took very direct action, during the /r/badp thing I downplayed it and had other people help me

so yes, actively not taking action is often actually the correct action

Wipqozn

Honestly I think one of the main things I'll learn as a moderator is knowing those times when I should just step abck and let another mod handle it, and when I'm fine just taking care of it on my own.

badp

not all flags you get are going to be actionable for example. Some flags you will simply mark as helpful with no action done. That is also a thing that you need to be able to do.

GodEmperorDune

well i'm happy that my confusing and kinda meh questioning has resulted in a good policy discussion

Wipqozn

@GodEmperorDune I think @JoshPetrie is as much to blame as you.You planned this together!

John

@badp I'm curious how you brought up r/badp to the other mods. "someone made a website of me; what do?" I know you had good reason, just seems like it falls a little out of the scope of SE mods

Also, what was the "discord thing"?

Unionhawk

18:32

@John someone changed one of the voice channels to "stop changing them badp"

John

@badp I see a lot of my flags marked as helpful with no apparent action done.

Unionhawk

Which... yeah.

John

@Unionhawk Oh that was it? I think I saw that

GodEmperorDune

@John there was a minor disagreement over how to name channels in discord. eventually someone named the channel to call badp out on it even though badp hadn't done anything

badp

@John perhaps it wasn't strictly made because I was a moderator, but it is still a thing that you do not want to become a thing

John

18:32

which again seems a little out of scope for SE mods

badp

and then everyone goes off to ruin reddit for everyone else and start this massive fireball of recursive drama

John

@badp What would you have done if it were a subreddit about a non-mod user?

badp

if I was asked for help, I would try and help, of course.

John

Well I think that about settles it. I'm voting for @badp

badp

WELL YOU CAN'T

SUCKS TO BE YOU

John

18:34

If I'm elected, I plan to make it possible to vote for people who didn't nominate themselves, just so we can all vote for @badp and @fredley to become double mods.

GodEmperorDune

i'm going to hack time so i can vote for the previous mods in their elections

John

@GodEmperorDune I heard all you need is an ocarina, or something.

GodEmperorDune

@Wipqozn sometimes i ask unreasonable questions just to see you candidates sweat. Its fun. And somewhat insightful.

Dragonrage

@GodEmperorDune the election process is basically a stress test of sorts

John

@GodEmperorDune That's part of the reason I want to become a mod. I think learning to deal with these kinds of things will help me in the future.

badp

18:43

someone asks a game rec question. Before you can get to it, it gets lots of votes and answers. It was closed, then reopened. What do

Unionhawk

Game rec? Close.

Like, if it's blatent and stuff

GodEmperorDune

@Unionhawk it wouldn't be closed and reopened if it was blatant

Unionhawk

Well, this is a weird situation because why did it get reopens

If it was a game rec

John

I don't think the community right now would reopen a game-rec question at all.

Dragonrage

@badp figure out who opened it first, then figure out why they did it.

Unionhawk

18:45

Since I can actually not think of any situation where that would ever be reopened

John

If the community changes enough to reopen a game-rec, the meta post should be revisited

Dragonrage

i would imagine that it would get kicked out of the reopen queue quite quickly, and if by some chance it was opened that the community would close it again very quickly

badp

"WELL OKAY GAME RECS ARE NOT ON TOPIC BUT WHAT I REALLY WANTED WAS A LIST OF FIRST PERSON SHOOTERS WITH FEMALE PROTAGONISTS, DEMONS AND MULTIPLAYER"

GodEmperorDune

@Dragonrage of course. we are trusting you with powerful tools, we don't want you to crack under the pressure

badp

(someone from the crowd cries, "Portal 2")

GodEmperorDune

18:46

@badp so many upvotes

Dragonrage

@badp that is still a game rec

GodEmperorDune

gold badge, +100

John

@badp ...demons in portal 2? Are we counting GlaDOS?

badp

@Dragonrage "BUT I AM NOT ASKING FOR A RECOMMENDATION, I JUST WANT A LIST OF GAMES SO I CAN PICK MYSELF"

GodEmperorDune

@badp what about the help text that says "no lists based on criteria"?

badp

18:48

@GodEmperorDune "OKAY OKAY I WANT THE NEWEST FIRST PERSON SHOOTERS WITH FEMALE PROTAGONISTS, DEMONS AND MULTIPLAYER, NO LONGER A LIST SEE"

Dragonrage

@badp you need an artifact from the game to prove it exists, then we can identify it for you

GodEmperorDune

@badp a list of 1 is still a list

badp

@GodEmperorDune "THAT'S BULLSHIT MAN THIS QUESTION IS OBJECTIVE AND DOES NOT ASK FOR A LIST"

GodEmperorDune

@badp its unfortunate you feel that way, but its still offtopic. Feel free to argue your case on meta

badp

@GodEmperorDune "ACTUALLY THE CLOSE REASON SAYS "IDENTIFY A GAME", SO THAT IS OFF TOPIC, OKAY, THEN I WANT AGAIN ALL OF THE GAMES. ONE PER ANSWER SO WE CAN ALL PICK THE BEST"

Unionhawk

18:52

step 1: flip desk over
step 2: sit there perplexed at the 5 users who reopened it for approximately 4:33 (in silence) (this is important)
step 3: flip desk back over to do work
step 4: uh, point to the help center... direct to meta given that the comments are probably long
step 5: cast a 5th vote assuming there are at least 9 3k users who know what a game rec is

I guess?

badp

@Unionhawk "THATS SO BULLSHIT FIRST YOU TELL ME IT HAS TO BE A SINGLE GAME THEN YOU TELL ME IT HAS TO BE A LIST WHICH ONE IT IS"

John

@badp and we're back to a list

badp

"YOU JUST KEEP MAKING UP SOME SHIT BECAUSE YOU ARE SHIT"

Unionhawk

It's both, look right here it says so

There's no need to be rude

badp

"IT SAYS Questions asking for help identifying a game, whether based on a description, or feature list, or any other set of criteria are off-topic; this blog post might help."

"I WANT ALL GAMES."

John

18:54

@badp Too broad.

badp

@Unionhawk "THERES NO NEED TO CLOSE MY QUESTION"

@John "OKAY, IF ITS TOO BROAD NAME FIVE."

John

@badp Still a list

badp

@John "CAN YOU EVEN NAME THREE"

"IF ITS SO BROAD YOU SURELY CAN NAME AT LEAST THREE"

Peter David Carter-Poulsen

@John Do you think you'll need an eye-catching logo to be elected as First Best Mod 4 Life, or will the identicon av work?

user4704

@badp Suspend. Reset password to something containing lowercase characters to force education.

badp

18:55

"THAT DUDE GOT 100 UPVOTES BY SAYING PORTAL 2 AND IT DOESN'T EVEN HAVE REAL DEMONS"

@JoshPetrie the latter is not an option

user4704

(n.b. for non-mods we cannot actually reset passwords, this is a joke)

user4704

I know :P

John

@badp Still off topic recommendation, yadda yadda

@PeterDavidCarter-Poulsen I already have a little Terraria dude outfitted in solid green with a giant green sword

Peter David Carter-Poulsen

Or, to be more serious about things: is it important a mod is easily identifiable as an individual with individual concerns, you would we rather have someone who talks more about the community?

John

I mean what more do you need

badp

18:56

@John "WHATS YADDA YADDA MEAN? YADDA YADDA YOUR FACE"

Unionhawk

@badp We do not allow questions asking for catalogues of games, or shopping recommendations. Please refer to the help center.

John

@badp I think this is the part where I close the question, point again to meta posts, and then stop responding.

Peter David Carter-Poulsen

Yeah. Noticed. It reminds me of the time one of my friends left me one Terraria world and I burned her epic castle

Unionhawk

(does the OT reason seriously not say "game or list of games"?)

Peter David Carter-Poulsen

Also many co-op games with other people but they were less fun... ;)

badp

18:57

@Unionhawk "OKAY OKAY HOW ABOUT THIS TELL ME A SITE THAT IS NOT GARBAGE WHEN I CAN FIND FIRST PERSON SHOOTERS WITH FEMALE PROTAGONISTS, DEMONS AND MULTIPLAYER"

John

@PeterDavidCarter-Poulsen The way I see it, mods enforce community policy. They're allowed an opinion like everyoen else, though

badp

@Unionhawk it's two separate close reasons.

Unionhawk

@badp OT/Too Broad?

Rec/ITG

Right

Peter David Carter-Poulsen

@John, yeah, I suppose, but if you are going to be elected...

Unionhawk

Or whatever

Peter David Carter-Poulsen

18:58

I'm thinking it's important people talk about the community and stuff

badp

@Unionhawk this

Dragonrage

64

A: What should be done with questions asking for game recommendations?

The solution is simple: consider game-recs are shopping recommendations. We don't do the latter, so we don't do the former. I propose a new close reason for emphasis, so that askers don't start arguing on the close reason blurb: Shopping list This question asks for buying or playing rec...

badp

/ME EDITS THE QUESTION: "WHAT IS AN INTERNET WEBSITES WHER EI CAN FIND FIRST PERSON SHOOTERS WITH FEMALE PROTAGS, DEMONS AND MULTIPLAYER"

John

@PeterDavidCarter-Poulsen By this point, most people in chat know who I am, and if you're on Arqade but not in chat, why would you care that I had different names on Arqade vs in chat? That said I'll definitely consider something that hopefully won't confuse people, if elected.

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