Arqade 2016 Election Discussion

LessPop_MoreFizz

00:15

@JasonBerkan You're confusing me with @Frank on this point.

I never made this statement, and I'd agree with you.

my rule of thumb for what is a bad question re: research effort is when the entire premise of the question falls apart when someone has a clue what they're talking about.

i.e. asking about the systems of a game based on it's name without having so much as typed the name of the game.com into their browser, which would pretty clearly make the question a non-question. (though it might prompt a bunch of others.)

(Alternately, if I can get the answer from the first page of results on google without even clicking through a link by copy pasting the language used by the question.)

Sterno

01:06

@Wipqozn As a moderator, you may be called upon to communicate complex ideas to users in less than 600 words. Do you feel you're up to the task? :P

Wipqozn

@Sterno Just give me an hour, and I'll pop you a link to a Google Drive Document :P

EBongo

01:33

@FAE @Sterno I think the "EBongo-style" new user experience improvement @Frank is referring to is something like this answer - which is obviously not well liked according to downvotes. It's my opinion on downvoting, mostly mass downvoting like what @JasonBerkan commented on above.

Sterno

I typically don't downvote something that's certain to be closed anyway, because it's adding insult to injury. Nor do I bother downvoting past like -5, because why bother?

I agree with some of your points but disagree with the overall idea that commenting on your downvote is often a good thing. In my experience, it rarely leads to something positive. It can be done well, and if so, do it. But I don't want people to feel like they should have to, because if you do it half-assed, it goes nuclear fast.

But other than that point, I mostly agree with things like why bother continuing to downvote a new user past a certain threshold? It doesn't matter to the system after about -2 or -3 I think, and once you get to -10 it's like beating a dead horse. That cries and feels bad.

All that said, I'll never yell at someone who casts a downvote when it's already at -10.

And I reserve to cast my own downvote when it's already super negative if I find it offensively bad. Particularly from a user who should know better. But that's rare.

I'm the one who asked the "what's your upvote/downvote philosophy" candidate question, because it gives me some insight to their wider view of this place, but honestly arguing with people over how they should upvote or downvote is something I really never want to do, except in the cases of obvious abuse like serial voting

EBongo

Yeah, the "when to comment" thing can certainly be debated. As with the Pirate Code, I view it as more of a guideline.

Frank

@Sterno Which the system flags and reverses, anyways.

Sterno

@Frank Unless they're crafty.

My point is, I have no trouble in an instance like that saying "Hey, dummy, you're doing it wrong"

Frank

@Sterno Which is where manual investigation comes in.

EBongo

01:44

I put my opinion on downvoting out there, just so other users could read it and agree with it or not. Folks all have the power to use their votes however they please, so it's not like other site policy - it's always ultimately up to the individual to decide.

Sterno

FWIW, I didn't downvote your meta answer because it already had plenty of downvotes. :)

(and I agreed with bits of it)

It's weird how much time we spend talking about this issue because I think the case of the ultra-downvoted content that isn't about to be deleted anyway is pretty darn rare.

Frank

Everyone already knows my view. Downvote often, downvote more often.

EBongo

@Sterno That's funny. I can handle the downvotes, especially on Meta, but thanks. I'm not really concerned at all with tenured users, it more the new users.

I think it can be a little misleading how often it happens, because those questions and answers get deleted so often. Its hard to pull up examples - they're all vapor now.

During my stroll down memory lane, I also came across a Meta question on "simple" questions where @JasonBerkan, myself, and a few others weighed in. Seems folks all had the same opinions then as they do now.

Sterno

@WorldEngineer I kind of asked this in the comments, but I'm going to be more direct here. I am genuinely curious why you are putting yourself forward as a candidate when there are so many good candidates already who are active participants on both the main site and meta. Your meta participation consists of one answer about the election and a post about ponies. You don't even have the rep yet for close votes. You have the rep for reviews, but have done none.

I know you have an occasional presence in chat so have a little bit of community exposure there, but I've never really seen you get interested in site policy discussions in there. In essence, you appear to just be a guy who at a whim decided he might as well mod here too since he's a mod somewhere else. Is there something about the situation here or the current candidates that you think demand someone with your experience?

If you aren't using any of the tools you have now, why not?

For what it's worth, a mod such as yourself with previous experience and a level-head (which I have to take your word for, because your lack of participation on this site makes it impossible for me to judge on my own) seems like a big asset if this were a beta site or in its infancy. But Arqade is not such a site.

user20683

@Sterno Force of habit, I can't yet review close votes and there's typically nothing beyond that to review on Programmers. I merely wish to help out more but my device circumstances make it difficult for me to accumulate the rep required to do so. I could arbitrarily ask questions but I generally google everything I ask first and if I get an answer, I go with that rather than adding noise. As far as "demanding", there's no demand per se. Do I think I'm better? Maybe, maybe not.

user20683

01:59

@Sterno Level-headed is not what I see across much of the site. Why is it home to the most flagged room on the site?

Sterno

@WorldEngineer Because it's the most awesome room on the site.

Though in seriousness, that has little to do with mods. Or, in inverse it does, because there isn't much mod presence in there besides @badp

You're in there quite a bit, and I've seen you flex your mod muscles in there. What do you think the reason is?

As for site-wide level-headness, I think our current mods are pretty level-headed. Normal users, maybe not so much.

I think @LessPop_MoreFizz's main campaign point is pretty much that our current mods are too level-headed to the point of fading into the background for fear of stirring anything up.

I'm not a mod and I'm not entirely sure what things look like when you are a mod, which is why I was genuinely asking if there was something from your perspective that is missing here that could use someone with your experience. It sounds like you think there are definitely some problems here. Can you elaborate?

It's worth noting that other than using StackOverflow professionally and in limited capacity, I don't really visit anything beyond Arqade, so I may be missing context that a wider view would have.

user20683

@Sterno I endured the Scope Wars on Programmers. I saw people get into massive arguments over razor thin edge cases. I see that going on here. I worry that some will be more inclined to stir up drama rather than help the site stay reasonably calm.

Sterno

@WorldEngineer What can you do about that as a mod that you can't do as a regular, active meta participant?

(I am unfamiliar with the Scope Wars but I'm going to assume it's people arguing over about what kinds of things are or are not on topic)

Frank

@Sterno Probably their version of our ITG war.

user20683

Programmers started off as the "Not Programming Related" migration target for SO

user20683

02:11

we still deal with mistaken impressions all the time

Brant

@Sterno Imagine our ITG debates, except over the entire nature of the site instead of a single tag.

user20683

and the new scope was enforced by SE inc.

user15026

@Frank But bigger.

user20683

@Sterno as far as action, I can suspend people, issue warnings and so forth.

Sterno

@WorldEngineer Have there been cases here you've seen where you think that was warranted but wasn't happening?

user20683

02:15

@Sterno yes

Sterno

I understand specifics are touchy but can you give a general example of such a case?

If you can't, I understand.

user20683

@Sterno specific ad hominem attacks

Sterno

I have to run and if there's anything you want to elaborate on feel free and I'll read it later, but otherwise thanks for the answers.

user20683

@Sterno feel free to post in the meta questions thread, it's what it's there for.

Sterno

02:54

@WorldEngineer I have 7 times so far! :P

LessPop_MoreFizz

@Sterno I don't know about the former, but definitely a bit of the latter; There is an all too familiar pattern at this point, where someone raises a concern on meta, there's a bunch of discussion and voting, and then nothing happens.

I have a history of working as a community organizer; attempting to govern 'by concensus' is all too common in that world.

It never works, because you don't have anyone empowered to direct the flow of conversation and eventually pivot the group from discussion to action.

I think that making that pivot is an important duty of community leaders like mods, and it's one that our moderators have largely abdicated, from day one.

FAE

@LessPop_MoreFizz Yeah, this happens with my guild if I and the other leaders don't grab the reins.

LessPop_MoreFizz

Which isn't to say that mods should get the decision about what is to be done, but it's critical that at some point, mods make a decision that the community has made clear what is to be done, and it's time to do it, and if we need to revisit it later, we'll do that.

Right. It's all well and good to say "I like to govern by consensus", but 'consensus' is a magical unicorn poop notion that never really appears for anything that matters; the best you can hope for is to give everyone a voice, protect the minority while allowing the majority to guide the way, and cut off discussion once it stops being constructive to start doing The Work instead of talking about it.

3

You want to know what I mean by a 'frontseat' mod? that's about as pure an encapsulation of my philosophy as you're ever going to get. Bottle that shit.

StrixVaria

@LessPop_MoreFizz You are my favorite future mod.

LessPop_MoreFizz

@StrixVaria I hereby promise that on day one, I will ban @JeffreyLin, Confuse @badp, and change @GnomeSlice's name to @SlomeGnice_The_Sex_Robot.

GnomeSlice

03:05

@LessPop_MoreFizz I hate you.

LessPop_MoreFizz

Community consensus has been clear that all three of these are important actions that the majority wants to see move forward, but to date our mods have been too timid to act.

THE TIME IS NOW. CHANGE THE OTTAWAN'S NAME. CONFUSE THE ITALIAN. BAN THE TEENAGER FROM NEW YORK. LESSPOP '14.

Sterno

03:29

Really, anyone who doesn't add "confuse @badp" to their platform is just throwing votes away.

LessPop_MoreFizz

03:48

Alternate proposal:

Instead of changing @GnomeSlice's name, we can simply turn him from an Ottawan to an Ottoman.

4

This will require the acquisition of significant capital resources.

kalina

08:28

@WorldEngineer because it's the most active room on the site, perhaps?

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Arqade 2016 Election Discussion